If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

Unfortunately no, because Haunting Wave in WoW differs significantly from the HotS ability. In WoW, Haunting Wave is just an AoE shadow damage ability.

And?

I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.

Sylvanas using Haunting Wave shows her connection to the Dark Ranger concept as depicted in Heroes of the Storm. I could consider it to be a modern, iconic example of a Dark Ranger ability. Again, I'm not so attached to the ability that I think Dark Rangers would even need this, but I think it's thematic nonetheless.

- - - Updated - - -

Death knights getting frost magic is linked to an alteration of their runeblade. Weird but it's an easy connection. Making dark rangers banshees is altering not only what is established with dark rangers in lore but from a gameplay perspective, you're utterly warping your base RACE. Because banshee is not a CLASS. It's a creature type. Furthermore, all banshees are both elves and women. There are no other banshee races and there are no male banshee. This has been a constant since WC3. It's another reason why it just won't fucking happen.

All you're doing is both disregarding lore and pushing for a class that is already represented with hunters.

1- A character does not have to *be* a Banshee in order to use the powers of Banshees. When Sylvanas uses Haunting Wave, she is not sending waves of *herself* at the enemy. She is commanding other spirits.
2- The male counterpart to the Banshee is a Spectre. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Spectre
3- A Player Class' Banshee Form could be implemented as just a form, just like a Demon Hunter's Demon Form is just a form. Demon Hunters aren't literally demons, and they haven't become a full demon like Illidan.
This could be equated to Mages being able to turn into Skeletal Mage form with Necrolords covenant or Warlocks having Metamorphosis; merely a form that one adopts that homages Sylvanas specifically.
4- Death Knights and Demon Hunters warp your race. I mean, I'm not even arguing that Dark Ranger should be Banshees, but you're flat out wrong about Blizzard not warping your race for specific Class.

How is it disregarding lore if Sylvanas was the first Dark Ranger we ever knew about, and she was already defined as being more than simply a Hunter? How is it disregarding lore if I'm talking about new player classes being given unique traits and history compared to existing NPCs of the same class?

Again, there is zero evidence in WoW where Blizzard actually makes mentions that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. I don't see how you regard this as headcanon, when you can't even point out one instance where this is actually mentioned or regarded in the canon.

[TheRevenantHero]

And?

I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.

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1- A character does not have to *be* a Banshee in order to use the powers of Banshees. When Sylvanas uses Haunting Wave, she is not sending waves of *herself* at the enemy. She is commanding other spirits.
2- The male counterpart to the Banshee is a Spectre. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Spectre
3- Banshee Form is just a form, just like a Demon Hunter's Demon Form is just a form. Demon Hunters aren't literally demons.
4- Death Knights and Demon Hunters warp your race. Why is Dark Ranger an exception to you?

How is it disregarding lore if Sylvanas was the first Dark Ranger we ever knew about, and she was already defined as being more than simply a Hunter? How is it disregarding lore if I'm talking about new player classes being given unique traits and history compared to existing NPCs of the same class?

Again, there is zero evidence in WoW where Blizzard actually makes mentions that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. I don't see how you regard this as headcanon, when you can't even point out one instance where this is actually mentioned or regarded in the canon.

1)Saying you don't have to be a banshee in order to use banshee powers is a super fucking ridiculous thing to say. I don't even know how to address that point because it's so mind-numbing.
2) Doesn't change the fact that they are incorporeal undead, something that players will likely never get access to.
3)Banshee form is not just a fucking form. There is no banshee form. You either are a banshee or you're not. Period.
4) Because you still retain most of the qualities of the base race. Banshees barely look like elves in most cases even though they are elven spirits. DKs and DHs still look mostly like their original race. Hell, death knights barely look different from their base race at all. they just get blue fire eyes and paler skin.

Because every single other dark ranger in lore follows the same qualities. They're all elves, they're all undead, and they're all mostly ranged oriented with a bow. You're disregarding lore by only talking about Sylvanas since she is a special case and literally all other dark rangers in WoW are simply undead elf hunters. Before demon hunters were playable, they shared most of their abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers do NOT share most of their abilities with Sylvanas since she has a whole slew of abilities that dark rangers aren't capable of at all.

Every single dark ranger pretty much only have hunter spells. If that isn't blatant evidence enough then you are either not properly looking or are being purposely obtuse to further your narrative.

[Triceron]

1)Saying you don't have to be a banshee in order to use banshee powers is a super fucking ridiculous thing to say. I don't even know how to address that point because it's so mind-numbing.

By Banshee powers I mean abilities like taking up a Banshee Form (which a mortal can practically do) or use Haunting Wave (sending out spirits which you command).

I am not talking about flying around and killing people by passing through them like Sylvanas does in the cinematic.

2) Doesn't change the fact that they are incorporeal undead, something that players will likely never get access to.

Reason?

3)Banshee form is not just a fucking form. There is no banshee form. You either are a banshee or you're not. Period.

Reason?

4) Because you still retain most of the qualities of the base race. Banshees barely look like elves in most cases even though they are elven spirits. DKs and DHs still look mostly like their original race. Hell, death knights barely look different from their base race at all. they just get blue fire eyes and paler skin.

Every Metamorphosis looked like Shadow Illidan before Demon Hunters were made playable. I mean, you're talking about a lack of art resources being the issue here.

Because every single other dark ranger in lore follows the same qualities. They're all elves, they're all undead, and they're all mostly ranged oriented with a bow.

And they have powers which Hunters do not have access to.

Every single dark ranger pretty much only have hunter spells. If that isn't blatant evidence enough then you are either not properly looking or are being purposely obtuse to further your narrative.

Hunters do not have Wailing Arrow, Black Arrow or Shadowburn Shot. Again, this is something you outright dismissed, to the point where you probably even forgot that they had this.

At this point, your arguments are getting more and more derivative and ill-explained. I am not going to continue discussion with you if you're blatantly spouting ultimatums of 'It will never happen' as if your opinion means anything.

[TheRevenantHero]

By Banshee powers I mean abilities like taking up a Banshee Form (which a mortal can practically do) or use Haunting Wave (sending out spirits which you command).

I am not talking about flying around and killing people by passing through them like Sylvanas does in the cinematic.



Reason?



Reason?



Every Metamorphosis looked like Shadow Illidan before Demon Hunters were made playable. I mean, you're talking about a lack of art resources being the issue here.



And they have powers which Hunters do not have access to.



Hunters do not have Wailing Arrow, Black Arrow or Shadowburn Shot. Again, this is something you outright dismissed, to the point where you probably even forgot that they had this.

At this point, your arguments are getting more and more derivative and ill-explained. I am not going to continue discussion with you if you're blatantly spouting ultimatums of 'It will never happen' as if your opinion means anything.

Banshee Form is something Sylvanas can do because...you know....SHE'S A FUCKING BANSHEE. So asking why players won't get banshee form is just you purposely being obtuse.

Incorporeal undead have a whole host of complications. Mainly, I don't see players getting the ability to pass through solid objects.

Regardless of art resources, they shared plenty of abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers share ONE ability with Sylvanas and that's Wailing Arrow. Which is the only spell they have that hunters don't have. One fucking spell isn't enough to justify playable dark rangers.

Hunters used to have Black Arrow. Shadowburn Shot is LITERALLY just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage instead of fire damage. So yes, I'm going to dismiss it. I haven't been stating opinions. I've been stating facts that are shown to us in game. It's a fact that dark rangers really aren't nothing more than undead elf hunters. Just because you are either unwilling or incapable of accepting facts is a you problem.

[Triceron]

Banshee Form is something Sylvanas can do because...you know....SHE'S A FUCKING BANSHEE. So asking why players won't get banshee form is just you purposely being obtuse.

? Why are we asking why players *won't* get a Banshee form if we're talking about a possible future Class that is designed around Sylvanas?

I mean that's like implying Death Knights should not have any Frost powers because they don't specifically wield Frostmourne. If you could abstract a reason for them to use it simply through altering runes, as weird as it seems, then why can't you fathom any other possible way for characters to use a Banshee form?

Warlocks literally learned to use Metamorphosis just by observing Illidan. The ability is not exactly what Demon Hunters use, but it gets the job done.

Warlocks even had Glyph of Demon Hunting which allowed them a secondary feature of turning into a different type of Demon Form that retains their original looks.

In WoW lore, only Demon Hunters were able to use Metamorphosis because of the specific ritual sacrifice that allowed them to use these powers. Can you not even acknowledge that Blizzard changed their own lore to allow Warlocks to use this ability?

Incorporeal undead have a whole host of complications. Mainly, I don't see players getting the ability to pass through solid objects.

Then they don't need to. As I said, a form is just a form.

Shadow Form turns you into a shadowy apparition that you can see through, and you can't pass through solid objects either.

Regardless of art resources, they shared plenty of abilities with Illidan. Dark rangers share ONE ability with Sylvanas and that's Wailing Arrow. Which is the only spell they have that hunters don't have. One fucking spell isn't enough to justify playable dark rangers.

I didn't say it was going to justify a playable Dark Ranger.

You seem focused on Dark Rangers being playable, while I'm simply arguing that you can't dismiss them on the basis that the NPCs in WoW aren't showing off banshee powers like Sylvanas.

My point is *nothing stops Blizzard* from defining Dark Ranger differently from what you regard Dark Ranger through the WoW NPC.

Hunters used to have Black Arrow. Shadowburn Shot is LITERALLY just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage instead of fire damage. So yes, I'm going to dismiss it. I haven't been stating opinions. I've been stating facts that are shown to us in game. It's a fact that dark rangers really aren't nothing more than undead elf hunters. Just because you are either unwilling or incapable of accepting facts is a you problem.

Er, what you said here is just an opinion.

You even replied to Ielenia that you didn't know there was a difference between Hunter Black Arrow and Dark Ranger Black Arrow. You still aren't regarding that there is a difference.

Hunters version of Black arrow summoned dark beasts. Dark Rangers create skeletons. There is a thematic difference between these themes. A Hunter would not summon skeletons, since their overall theme is based on Beasts, and that's how Black Arrow was modified to fit the class.


You just used your opinion right now to say Shadowburn shot is just explosive shot. That's not a fact. Hunters do not have this ability, so you're simply ignoring the fact a difference exists.

Again, I'm not using this as *proof* that a Dark Ranger would be playable. I'm *debunking your statements* that there are no differences.

I agree that a Dark Ranger would not likely be playable. I agree that there's not a significant amount of unique or interesting material to create an entire new Dark Ranger class out of.

However, I would not accept a blatant dishonest lie that says WoW is a definitive source saying that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. There is no evidence for that, and that is what I'm pointing out to you. The fact that you are saying there are literally no differences, then even acknowleding that there are differences that exist.

[Teriz]

And?

I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.

This is the WoW version of Haunting Wave:

Haunting Wave
Instant
Releases rolling energy, pushing away enemies upon contact with the waves and inflicting 8262 Shadow damage every half-second.

A wave of Shadow magic that knocks targets back and deals shadow damage can be utilized by practically any class in WoW that uses Shadow magic. That isn't even close to a defining ability. In fact, the SPriest ability Dark Halo is highly similar to that ability.

[Triceron]

A wave of Shadow magic that knocks targets back and deals shadow damage can be utilized by practically any class in WoW that uses Shadow magic. That isn't even close to a defining ability. In fact, the SPriest ability Dark Halo is highly similar to that ability.

Then you're implying a bad faith argument since you're judging Haunting Wave before you've even seen it in the Sylvanas raid, and pre-emptively jumping at comparing it to Dark Halo. You have no intention to regard any Dark Ranger ability as class defining.

[Syegfryed]

Nothing elf-centric about Humans and Forsaken.
Giving it to everyone without a justified explanation is the shallowing of lore.

giving to other elf races, "just because they are elves" is "shallowing" the lore and by a stupid reason, which is worse

Dark ranger already is a bad choice for new class, and very unlikely by itself, make it elf-centric would be just dumb

By name.
Draenei Rangari, as i've said before, i can see being viable. Less so Thunderlords, who i see more as Beastmasters. Plus, they don't have a dedicated group for such Rangers. Though, i could always be wrong.

"who i see"
"what i consider"

dude, again, you are not the one to decide those things, you are just blind by bias and what you like and prefer which is not the point of the topic

[Teriz]

Have you seen what this ability looks like in the raid?

Why do we need to see what it looks like? The mechanics are what is important, and it's just a AoE Shadow ability with a knockback. That ability wouldn't be out of place in any existing Shadow class.

Also, graphics can be updated Metamorphosis got a new graphical update that fits Demon Hunters when it was taken away from Warlocks.

The new Metamorphosis doesn't look highly similar to the ability that Warlocks once used.

At any case, it should look like sending out a wave of banshees, which is thematic to Sylvanas' portrayal of the Dark Ranger. I expect nothing less out of a Dark Ranger Player class.

The graphics aren't important, it's all about the mechanics. For example, regardless of how it looked, Metamorphosis was always about the ability to transform into a demon.

[TheRevenantHero]

? Why are we asking why players *won't* get a Banshee form if we're talking about a possible future Class that is designed around Sylvanas?

I mean that's like implying Death Knights should not have any Frost powers because they don't specifically wield Frostmourne. If you could abstract a reason for them to use it simply through altering runes, as weird as it seems, then why can't you fathom any other possible way for characters to use a Banshee form?

Warlocks literally learned to use Metamorphosis just by observing Illidan. The ability is not exactly what Demon Hunters use, but it gets the job done.

Warlocks even had Glyph of Demon Hunting which allowed them a secondary feature of turning into a different type of Demon Form that retains their original looks.

In WoW lore, only Demon Hunters were able to use Metamorphosis because of the specific ritual sacrifice that allowed them to use these powers. Can you not even acknowledge that Blizzard changed their own lore to allow Warlocks to use this ability?



Then they don't need to. As I said, a form is just a form.

Shadow Form turns you into a shadowy apparition that you can see through, and you can't pass through solid objects either.



I didn't say it was going to justify a playable Dark Ranger.

You seem focused on Dark Rangers being playable, while I'm simply arguing that you can't dismiss them on the basis that the NPCs in WoW aren't showing off banshee powers like Sylvanas.

My point is *nothing stops Blizzard* from defining Dark Ranger differently from what you regard Dark Ranger through the WoW NPC.



Er, what you said here is just an opinion.

You even replied to Ielenia that you didn't know there was a difference between Hunter Black Arrow and Dark Ranger Black Arrow. You still aren't regarding that there is a difference.

Hunters version of Black arrow summoned dark beasts. Dark Rangers create skeletons. There is a thematic difference between these themes. A Hunter would not summon skeletons, since their overall theme is based on Beasts, and that's how Black Arrow was modified to fit the class.


You just used your opinion right now to say Shadowburn shot is just explosive shot. That's not a fact. Hunters do not have this ability, so you're simply ignoring the fact a difference exists.

Again, I'm not using this as *proof* that a Dark Ranger would be playable. I'm *debunking your statements* that there are no differences.

I agree that a Dark Ranger would not likely be playable. I agree that there's not a significant amount of unique or interesting material to create an entire new Dark Ranger class out of.

However, I would not accept a blatant dishonest lie that says WoW is a definitive source saying that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. There is no evidence for that, and that is what I'm pointing out to you. The fact that you are saying there are literally no differences, then even acknowleding that there are differences that exist.

I've explained things numerous times. You are now continuing to be purposely obtuse so I'm not going to humor any of the statements you made in this post. I shouldn't need to repeat myself just because you are unwilling to accept facts.

For the record, I said I forgot black arrow summoned an undead minion. When hunters had it, it did that too but I had forgotten because it's been a while. But it backs up my statement that dark rangers are nothing more than undead elf hunters.

[shoc]

Paladins are a standard RPG class. They don’t need defining abilities. Shaman had totems, Druids had shape shifting, and Warlocks controlled demons.

Dark Rangers?

Disc Priest is the most boring of the Priests and there's lots of room for improvement there but I don't have anything good. I think Necromancer could be a good Priest spec, but that pissed a lot of people off last time I tried to talk about it.

[Teriz]

Disc Priest is the most boring of the Priests and there's lots of room for improvement there but I don't have anything good. I think Necromancer could be a good Priest spec, but that pissed a lot of people off last time I tried to talk about it.

Disc Priest should lean more heavily into the "Grey" Priest spec territory where they utilize more Shadow magic to the point where the spec is truly a balance between Shadow and Light. More spells like Arcangel, Dark Halo, and/or Shadowmend would be a huge benefit.

[Triceron]

Why do we need to see what it looks like? The mechanics are what is important, and it's just a AoE Shadow ability with a knockback. That ability wouldn't be out of place in any existing Shadow class.

The graphics aren't important, it's all about the mechanics. For example, regardless of how it looked, Metamorphosis was always about the ability to transform into a demon.

Why are the mechanics important if you are simply looking for an ability that defines a class?

Bloodlust is an iconic Shaman ability. Blizzard happened to share it with Mages, but it does not make it any less iconic to the Shaman. It still defines the Shaman class to this day.

If not, Blizzard could give Dark Ranger Charm, which is their WC3 version of Mind Control. Have it work like Heroes of the Storm's MC, which fires an arrow and makes the enemy walk forward.

[Teriz]

Why are the mechanics important if you are simply looking for an ability that defines a class?

Because if the ability is generic enough to pop up in multiple classes, then its not a defining ability.

A Shadow AoE with a knockback is rather generic.

Bloodlust is an iconic Shaman ability. Blizzard happened to share it with Mages, but it does not make it any less iconic to the Shaman. It still defines the Shaman class to this day.

An iconic ability is not the same as a defining ability. Shaman didn't get Bloodlust until TBC, but Shaman always had totems. Additionally, Mages got Time Warp and Hunters got Primal Rage for balance reasons. Raids were bringing Shaman ONLY because they had Bloodlust.

If not, Blizzard could give Dark Ranger Charm, which is their WC3 version of Mind Control. Have it work like Heroes of the Storm's MC, which fires an arrow and makes the enemy walk forward.

Why couldn't Hunters get that ability? They utilize multiple magical arrows and arrows that cause status effects.

[Triceron]

Because if the ability is generic enough to pop up in multiple classes, then its not a defining ability.

You mean like Metamorphosis?

A Shadow AoE with a knockback is rather generic.

If you say so.

An iconic ability is not the same as a defining ability.

Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?

Why couldn't Hunters get that ability? They utilize multiple magical arrows and arrows that cause status effects.

Sure, the could get that ability.

Feel free to start a thread on that.

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For the record, I said I forgot black arrow summoned an undead minion. When hunters had it, it did that too but I had forgotten because it's been a while. But it backs up my statement that dark rangers are nothing more than undead elf hunters.

Yes, if Dark Rangers only summoned undead beasts, then they would be undead elf hunters. I would agree with you on that assessment.

If all Dark Rangers exhibited Nathanos' abilities and only to the extent of his abilities, then I would agree with you that they could be considered Hunters. He uses pets, he uses melee weapons, and he doesn't really touch on any magical or supernatural abilities. He's simply a Ranger/Hunter who is undead.

But as I've stated, Dark Rangers use Black Arrow which summons skeletons, and they use Wailing Arrow which emits Banshee screams. These are supernatural abilities that the Hunter never had. There is a clear difference here that you're still unwilling to admit to.

[Teriz]

You mean like Metamorphosis?

I'm only aware of one class that currently has the ability to transform into a demon. On the other hand, practically every class that uses Shadow magic has a Shadow-based AoE ability.

Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?

Again, standard RPG classes don't need defining abilities. Classes unique to WoW like Druids, Shaman, Warlocks, Demon Hunters, and potentially Tinkers need defining abilities/concepts to properly separate them from the standard classes.

Take the Tinker class for example, without the mech piloting concept to fully define the class, the concept begins to bleed into the Hunter class since you could make the argument that Hunters could expand their use of explosives and guns. The mech aspect sets a proper dividing line between the concepts, because mech piloting is far beyond any reasonable concept of the Hunter class.

The problem with the Dark Ranger concept is that the Hunter class has a history of using its signature ability (Black Arrow), and a solid foundation of utilizing magical arrows and shots. So why do we need a Dark Ranger class when we can simply expand the existing Hunter concept of utilizing magical arrows to utilize Shadow magic?

Also with people clamoring for a revamp of MM and Survival, this just makes the idea of another Ranger class seem even more unlikely.

[TheRevenantHero]

You mean like Metamorphosis?



If you say so.



Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?



Sure, the could get that ability.

Feel free to start a thread on that.

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Yes, if Dark Rangers only summoned undead beasts, then they would be undead elf hunters. I would agree with you on that assessment.

If all Dark Rangers exhibited Nathanos' abilities and only to the extent of his abilities, then I would agree with you that they could be considered Hunters. He uses pets, he uses melee weapons, and he doesn't really touch on any magical or supernatural abilities. He's simply a Ranger/Hunter who is undead.

But as I've stated, Dark Rangers use Black Arrow which summons skeletons, and they use Wailing Arrow which emits Banshee screams. These are supernatural abilities that the Hunter never had. There is a clear difference here that you're still unwilling to admit to.

Black Arrow functions the exact same way. Whether it's a beast or skeleton is utterly irrelevant. Wailing Arrow is literally just Explosive Shot that does shadow instead of fire damage. The only difference is that it silences enemies. There is nothing to admit to. You are making comments about something that isn't there. You're doing mental gymnastics to justify dark ranger as a class. Whether you like it or not, Black Arrow is something hunters have had in the past and Wailing Arrow is just explosive shot with an added silence effect, which sounds like something that could have been done in the old glyphs system. You're grasping at straws pretty hardcore.

[Triceron]

You're grasping at straws pretty hardcore.

Pray tell what straws am I grasping at?

Can you tell me what exactly I'm trying to prove? Do you understand the arguments that I'm actually making?

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I'm only aware of one class that currently has the ability to transform into a demon. On the other hand, practically every class that uses Shadow magic has a Shadow-based AoE ability.

Currently?

So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.

I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?

Again, standard RPG classes don't need defining abilities.

Sure they do.

Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?

[TheRevenantHero]

Pray tell what straws am I grasping at?

Can you tell me what exactly I'm trying to prove? Do you understand the arguments that I'm actually making?

- - - Updated - - -



Currently?

So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.

I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?



Sure they do.

Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?

You keep trying to make this point that dark rangers are different enough from hunters because of two spells. Yet you keep disregarding the fact that hunter has had Black Arrow in the past and that Wailing Arrow is just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage and has a silence effect. The mechanics dark rangers have shown in the game since it started is no different than hunters. You keep pushing Wailing Arrow's flavor text like that somehow changes gameplay when it doesn't. You keep ignoring established lore for dark rangers by saying things like "They can take on Banshee form" despite none of them being banshees.

Oh and you're completely wrong about paladins in D&D. Clerics ALSO get Turn Undead. A more apt defining feature of paladins is Smites. As for paladins in WoW, they don't really have a defining ability anymore because their party wide auras aren't really a thing anymore. Holy Power I guess could be a defining feature?

[Triceron]

You keep trying to make this point that dark rangers are different enough from hunters because of two spells. Yet you keep disregarding the fact that hunter has had Black Arrow in the past and that Wailing Arrow is just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage and has a silence effect. The mechanics dark rangers have shown in the game since it started is no different than hunters. You keep pushing Wailing Arrow's flavor text like that somehow changes gameplay when it doesn't. You keep ignoring established lore for dark rangers by saying things like "They can take on Banshee form" despite none of them being banshees.

If you said they have similar abilities, I would agree with you.

But you are specifically saying their abilities are *no different* from each other, that they are the same.

Holy Priests and Paladins have very similar abilities to each other. Mechanically, some are even exactly the same. But Redemption is not Ressurection; these are not the same abilities. Greater Heal is not Holy Light, these are not the same abilities. They are functionally and mechanically similar, and if you said they were similar, I would agree. If you said they were the same, you'd be a dishonest liar and I'd call you out on making that erroneous assumption. They are not the same ability.

Here, you are continuing to be a dishonest liar. If you wish to say they are similar, I would wholeheartedly agree. If you say they are no different from each other, you are absolutely dishonest, because you even acknowledge that there are differences between Wailing Arrow and Explosive Shot in both name and mechanics.

Look, I'm not looking for 'GOTCHA' moment to say if you acknowledge these as different, then Dark Rangers are automatically their own class. No. I am having you acknowledge that you're using an erroneous comparison of abilities that literally are not the same.

No different means *no differences*. If Wailing Arrow has a silence component where Explosive Shot does not, then they are not the same ability.

Again, I have blatantly said I don't believe Dark Ranger would even be made into their class, so I'm not trying to prove you wrong on that front. I'm literally pointing out that you are literally lying to my face, or at least not aware of what words you're using when you say something is *no different* from something else.

If you see a tomato that really looks like an apple, you can't say that these two things are no different from each other. We both know they're different things. You can say they're similar, but you are lying if you say they are the same.

Dark Ranger NPCs have similar abilities to a Hunter, and the similarities are to the point where it's not likely to consider making a full class out of them. However they do not share the same abilities, and we should acknowledge that there ARE differences. If you're unwilling to even acknowledge this truth, then I'm just going to regard you as a liar, and I will no longer waste my time with you.

Oh and you're completely wrong about paladins in D&D. Clerics ALSO get Turn Undead. A more apt defining feature of paladins is Smites. As for paladins in WoW, they don't really have a defining ability anymore because their party wide auras aren't really a thing anymore. Holy Power I guess could be a defining feature?

Ah yes, I was thinking Smite not Turn Evil. Thank you for the correction.

Holy Power could easily be adapted as a Priest resource. We know that there are unique resources allocated to certain specs, like how Shadow had Shadow Orbs and now Insanity as a resource.

It's not something unique to Paladins or considered class defining.