If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[pacotaco]

But dark rangers in WoW are literally just undead hunters. They don't have any abilities that separate them from hunters.

Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)

[Cosmic Janitor]

Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)

Not to mention that dark rangers at least have a certain stealth aspect to them that is not part of the hunter class in wow right now - even with camouflage. Hunters as they are now certainly don't cover the full thematic range of something like dark ranger. In general, hunters in WoW are like a niche part of the ranger archetype, ranger with beastmaster specialization, even more so since they made survival melee BM with traps.

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Holy Power could easily be adapted as a Priest resource. We know that there are unique resources allocated to certain specs, like how Shadow had Shadow Orbs and now Insanity as a resource.

Holy Power is just like any other random combo point offshot, it's part of the builder/spender gameplay type. You can make these for any class really, not sure I follow where you guys are going with this part of the discussion. They used to have seals and judgements, which pretty much was kinda like a smite ability, but sadly Blizzard killed/neutered that for the most part..

[Teriz]

Currently?

So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.

Back? Dark Rangers never had mind control before it showed up in the WoW Priest class.

I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?

Dark Rangers had Charm, not Mind Control. Also even that isn’t a very unique ability since multiple classes have or had similar abilities in WoW. Warlocks have control demons, DKs have control undead, Shaman had control elemental, Druids have Hibernate, Hunters have tame, etc. Mental manipulation or control isn’t something confined to one class.

Sure they do.

Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?

Again, standard RPG classes don’t need defining abilities or concepts. Why? Because a Paladin is well known and shows up in pretty much any RPG you play. The same applies to Warriors, Rogues, Priests, Mages, Hunters, and Monks. You fire up a RPG and see a Paladin class, you pretty much know what you’re getting. Paladins for example will always be a heavily armored fighter that uses holy magic.

Demon Hunters, Dark Rangers, Death Knights, Shaman, Druids, and Tinkers need defining abilities to separate them from those classes above.

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Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)

They showed non Arthas DKs with the ability to raise the dead and use Necromancy. That’s the defining concept of DKs. They showed non Illidan Demon Hunters with metamorphosis in Black Temple. That’s the defining concept of Demon Hunters.

People are simply asking what makes Dark Ranger a unique concept and not simply a “dark” version of the existing Hunter class.

[TheRevenantHero]

Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)

No. I'm not going to look at games other than Warcraft games. HotS is a MOBA and functions in a COMPLETELY different way so there is no way in hell I'm going to take it seriously when talking about potential classes for WoW.

[Ielenia]

Well it's also relevant because it explains why the WC3 version of Black Arrow wouldn't enter the class lineup.

Not really, considering we have other class abilities that have "on kill" procs. Victory Rush, for example.

No, the WC3 version of Black Arrow requires you to kill the target with Black Arrow specifically. Victory Rush activates regardless of what you kill a target with.

Black Arrow in WC3 is an auto-attack buff, so nine out of ten times, you're killing the mobs with Black Arrow. In WoW, though, Black Arrow is a damage over time debuff. So it's easy to kill a mob under the effects of Black Arrow.

Yeah, but the minion may accidentally trigger because you killed a mob with Black Arrow. Conversely, you may need the minion and it won't trigger because you accidentally killed the mob with a different ability.

Again, the ability is more trouble than its worth. Both Hunter variations are superior.

Except the WoW version of the WC3 ability is a dot, so it's super easy to kill a mob under the effect of the Black Arrow debuff, considering considering the ability has no CD.

Except that isn't the WC3 version of Black Arrow.

It is the WoW version of it, though. The only difference is that BA is not an auto-cast buff that increases auto-attack damage, but an active ability that leaves a dot instead of dealing direct damage. Everything else about the spell is the exact same.

According to Wowpedia, the Priest ability Mind Control is a Charm. That says a lot.

According to logic, that is a red herring. That says a lot. The priest's mind control ability being considered a charm is meaningless.

Again, in a class that can shoot fire, frost, nature, and arcane arrows, why is it out of line for them to shoot shadow arrows?

Because necromaqncy is not the kind of stuff you find in nature. Necromancy, by its very design, is unnatural.

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Sure we do have examples of mind manipulation through magic and items. Dark rangers don't have those abilities though.

Can you show me an example of a paladin using frost magic before Wrath, though? It doesn't matter that the current NPCs don't do any of that. It's a possible part of their concept.

Also, no. Death knights, when they were introduced in WC3, were paladins that traveled to the source of the plague and ended up at the Icecrown Citadel. They were offered power by the Lich King and they accepted. They then had their souls bound to the Lich King's will. They were then also granted vampiric runeblades and became the Scourge's strongest generals.

So you're completely wrong about death knights being nothing but paladins before Wrath. Meanwhile, dark rangers literally are just undead quel'dorei rangers. And as I said, "ranger" is literally just another word for Hunter in elven society.

In other words: they were paladins who turned evil. Just like I wrote. No death knight prior to Wrath were once anything other than paladins. And yet the death knights of today come from all "classes" and characters. Which is why saying "all dark rangers are undead quel'dorei hunters" is meaningless.

[TheRevenantHero]

Not really, considering we have other class abilities that have "on kill" procs. Victory Rush, for example.


Black Arrow in WC3 is an auto-attack buff, so nine out of ten times, you're killing the mobs with Black Arrow. In WoW, though, Black Arrow is a damage over time debuff. So it's easy to kill a mob under the effects of Black Arrow.


Except the WoW version of the WC3 ability is a dot, so it's super easy to kill a mob under the effect of the Black Arrow debuff, considering considering the ability has no CD.


It is the WoW version of it, though. The only difference is that BA is not an auto-cast buff that increases auto-attack damage, but an active ability that leaves a dot instead of dealing direct damage. Everything else about the spell is the exact same.


According to logic, that is a red herring. That says a lot. The priest's mind control ability being considered a charm is meaningless.


Because necromaqncy is not the kind of stuff you find in nature. Necromancy, by its very design, is unnatural.

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Can you show me an example of a paladin using frost magic before Wrath, though? It doesn't matter that the current NPCs don't do any of that. It's a possible part of their concept.


In other words: they were paladins who turned evil. Just like I wrote. No death knight prior to Wrath were once anything other than paladins. And yet the death knights of today come from all "classes" and characters. Which is why saying "all dark rangers are undead quel'dorei hunters" is meaningless.

I don't need to show you anything because it's a ridiculous thing to ask. It's irrelevant. A lot of them were paladins, sure, but they were given NEW powers by the Lich King and lost their connection to the Light. Just because you want to disregard the lore to fit your narrative doesn't make you right. You're being incredibly dishonest with your comments because it doesn't fucking matter what class they were before. Unlike death knights, dark rangers weren't granted a completely new set of abilities. So the comparison is just you being purposely misconstruing things to fit your narrative.

[Triceron]

Back? Dark Rangers never had mind control before it showed up in the WoW Priest class.

Then you are operating under double standards considering you define Metamorphosis as class defining despite Warlocks having it, while Mind Control is currently only available to Shadow Priests but was exclusive to Dark Rangers in WC3 and HOTS (No other hero has mind control.)

You have no intention of reaching common ground. Bad faith argument.

Again, standard RPG classes don’t need defining abilities or concepts

Sure, I wholeheartedly agree.

And here you are making bad faith arguments that deny all defining abilities and concepts specifically to a Dark Ranger.

The problem isn't the assessment you presented here, the problem is you have no intention of honoring your own words.

It's come to the point where you generalized Sylvanas' unique abilities into some form of excuse that you can dismiss, and you shift the narrative when it doesn't suot you like being unable to explain why Paladins don't have a class defining ability.

It's to the point where you've lied so much that you forgot you were defining the Shaman as a core class earlier, but now admitted that Shamans need to be defined, and for whatever reason you lumped Druid in there as need in definition even though it's a core RPG class in D&D.

Keep up the charade though. You're close to convincing me.

[Diaphin]

giving to other elf races, "just because they are elves" is "shallowing" the lore and by a stupid reason, which is worse

Dark ranger already is a bad choice for new class, and very unlikely by itself, make it elf-centric would be just dumb

How is an elf-centric class dumb when elves are overwhelmingly the most popular races in the game?

[TheRevenantHero]

How is an elf-centric class dumb when elves are overwhelmingly the most popular races in the game?

Because we already have one elf-centric class. We don't need another one.

[Ielenia]

Paladins are a standard RPG class. They don’t need defining abilities. Shaman had totems, Druids had shape shifting, and Warlocks controlled demons.

Dark Rangers?

Druids are also a "standard rpg class". And what ability defines the death knight? Raising the dead? How can it be "defining" if it also "defines" another concept, the necromancer?

[Alphabet]

There should be some kind of class which will act as buffer. Unique party/raid buffs with rotation which will buff players and refill their resource in some way. I played this kind of class in DCUO. It was Controller class and if you execute your dps rotation right you will replenish some of the resource (energy) of other players. Main job of this class was CC in party. They can make it work in WoW. Lets say you will carry raid Standart and buff players with some unique yells and shit like this

[Ielenia]

2) Doesn't change the fact that they are incorporeal undead, something that players will likely never get access to.

The priest's "disperse" form is basically becoming incorporeal.

3)Banshee form is not just a fucking form. There is no banshee form. You either are a banshee or you're not. Period.

Shamans can turn into ascendants without becoming actual elementals. Demon hunters take demon forms without becoming actual demons. So why couldn't dark rangers take on banshee forms without being an actual banshee?

[Teriz]

Then you are operating under double standards considering you define Metamorphosis as class defining despite Warlocks having it, while Mind Control is currently only available to Shadow Priests but was exclusive to Dark Rangers in WC3 and HOTS (No other hero has mind control.)

Demon Hunters had metamorphosis in WC3. They got it again when Illidan and the Illidari showed up in TBC. Even when Warlocks got it in WoW it was still viewed as a Demon Hunter ability.

Again, Dark Rangers never had mind control before Priests. Mind Control and Charm are two very different abilities.

And here you are making bad faith arguments that deny all defining abilities and concepts specifically to a Dark Ranger.

The problem isn't the assessment you presented here, the problem is you have no intention of honoring your own words.

It's come to the point where you generalized Sylvanas' unique abilities into some form of excuse that you can dismiss, and you shift the narrative when it doesn't suot you like being unable to explain why Paladins don't have a class defining ability.

Again, Paladins are a classic, standard RPG class. The Dark Ranger class isn’t defined. It’s not even defined in Warcraft, with Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Summermoon all being Dark Rangers, yet all being very different from each other.

Hence why the class needs a defining ability.

It's to the point where you've lied so much that you forgot you were defining the Shaman as a core class earlier, but now admitted that Shamans need to be defined, and for whatever reason you lumped Druid in there as need in definition even though it's a core RPG class in D&D.

Keep up the charade though. You're close to convincing me.

Please don’t accuse me of lying. I said from the start that Shaman are defined by Totems and Druids are defined by shapeshifting.

[TheRevenantHero]

The priest's "disperse" form is basically becoming incorporeal.


Shamans can turn into ascendants without becoming actual elementals. Demon hunters take demon forms without becoming actual demons. So why couldn't dark rangers take on banshee forms without being an actual banshee?

"Basically" is not the same as "Actually incorporeal". You still can't phase through objects with Disperse.

Shamans are channeling the elements to take on a hybrid elemental form. Demon hunters are channeling their inner demon to take on a demonic form. Banshees are incorporeal spirits with no physical form so I really don't see dark rangers capable of doing that at all. The fact that I need to explain this is ridiculous.

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Demon Hunters had metamorphosis in WC3. They got it again when Illidan and the Illidari showed up in TBC. Even when Warlocks got it in WoW it was still viewed as a Demon Hunter ability.

Again, Dark Rangers never had mind control before Priests. Mind Control and Charm are two very different abilities.



Again, Paladins are a classic, standard RPG class. The Dark Ranger class isn’t defined. It’s not even defined in Warcraft, with Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Summermoon all being Dark Rangers, yet all being very different from each other.

Hence why the class needs a defining ability.



Please don’t accuse me of lying. I said from the start that Shaman are defined by Totems and Druids are defined by shapeshifting.

Charm is literally an ability that allows you to take control of an enemy unit. Just because it's not CALLED Mind Control doesn't change the fact that it IS mind control.

Though dark rangers in WoW don't have any form of mind control in WoW so it's safe to say that was scrapped in the transition.

[Diaphin]

Because we already have one elf-centric class. We don't need another one.

Why not? They are proven to be the most favorite, so why shouldn't more ressources dedicated to them? It sounds more reasonable than dedicating ressources like a new class to unpopular races.

[Ielenia]

Back? Dark Rangers never had mind control before it showed up in the WoW Priest class.

They had Charm back in Warcraft 3, and as you pointed out, Mind Control is considered a Charm. And, in your own words, "that says a lot", right?

[TheRevenantHero]

Why not? They are proven to be the most favorite, so why shouldn't more ressources dedicated to them? It sounds more reasonable than dedicating ressources like a new class to unpopular races.

I'm not advocating for introducing another class that is race specific. I'd prefer if a new class can be played by ALL races.

[Ielenia]

I don't need to show you anything because it's a ridiculous thing to ask. It's irrelevant.

It's not "irrelevant". You are the one claiming that none of the current dark ranger NPCs has any form of mind control, therefore, if realized into a playable class, the concept should not have any mind-altering abilities. I am countering that notion by asking you to show me death knight NPCs before Wrath who had access to frost magic, considering the class today has an entire spec dedicated to frost magic.

The point of my counter is to demonstrate that saying "X concept's NPCs do not have that ability, therefore the playable class should not have that ability" is a dead-in-the-waters argument to make. I could also ask you to show me monk NPCs healing with magic mists. Or demon hunters being able to "fel rush" or spit breaths of fire.

A lot of them were paladins, sure, but they were given NEW powers by the Lich King and lost their connection to the Light. Just because you want to disregard the lore to fit your narrative doesn't make you right.

I'm not "disregarding" anything. All you said is both meaningless, because I'm not talking about the details that caused the paladins to become death knights, but it also further reinforces what I'm saying because it shows that what a concept is, right now, does not set in stone what he concept can become tomorrow. Just like "all death knights were once paladins" did not set in stone what the death knights are today.

Unlike death knights, dark rangers weren't granted a completely new set of abilities. So the comparison is just you being purposely misconstruing things to fit your narrative.

Except they obviously were? Search for "dark ranger" on WoWHead and check their abilities. Many of them have abilities that the hunters do not possess. The Warcraft 3 dark ranger unit also possesses abilities the WoW hunter class does not possess.

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"Basically" is not the same as "Actually incorporeal". You still can't phase through objects with Disperse.

And neither would players with the "incorporeal" ability, so I don't know what the problem is. "Incorporeal" would be a game mechanic to make the player immune to physical attacks and maybe magical attacks.

Shamans are channeling the elements to take on a hybrid elemental form. Demon hunters are channeling their inner demon to take on a demonic form. Banshees are incorporeal spirits with no physical form so I really don't see dark rangers capable of doing that at all. The fact that I need to explain this is ridiculous.

They would be able to temporarily take on a banshee form much like a demon hunter can take on a demonic form, and a shaman can take on an elemental form. And the mage can take a skeletal form. Etc.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's not "irrelevant". You are the one claiming that none of the current dark ranger NPCs has any form of mind control, therefore, if realized into a playable class, the concept should not have any mind-altering abilities. I am countering that notion by asking you to show me death knight NPCs before Wrath who had access to frost magic, considering the class today has an entire spec dedicated to frost magic.

The point of my counter is to demonstrate that saying "X concept's NPCs do not have that ability, therefore the playable class should not have that ability" is a dead-in-the-waters argument to make. I could also ask you to show me monk NPCs healing with magic mists. Or demon hunters being able to "fel rush" or spit breaths of fire.


I'm not "disregarding" anything. All you said is both meaningless, because I'm not talking about the details that caused the paladins to become death knights, but it also further reinforces what I'm saying because it shows that what a concept is, right now, does not set in stone what he concept can become tomorrow. Just like "all death knights were once paladins" did not set in stone what the death knights are today.


Except they obviously were? Search for "dark ranger" on WoWHead and check their abilities. Many of them have abilities that the hunters do not possess. The Warcraft 3 dark ranger unit also possesses abilities the WoW hunter class does not possess.

I'm not even going to humor dark ranger becoming a class. The most it could be is a hunter spec and even then that's REALLY stretching it. There is absolutely nothing unique about dark rangers that would justify an entire class. You can say there is until you're blue in the face but you'll be wrong each and every time.

I have looked at dark ranger. They have Black Arrow(A former hunter spell), Multi-shot(A hunter spell), Shoot(A hunter auto-attack), and Wailing Arrow(Explosive Shot that does shadow damage and adds a silence). Oh and some have Hooked Net(Which is a different animation for Steel Trap on Survival hunters). They really have absolutely nothing unique about them to justify an entire class.

[Teriz]

They had Charm back in Warcraft 3, and as you pointed out, Mind Control is considered a Charm. And, in your own words, "that says a lot", right?

Yeah, Mind Control is a charm ability, but it isn’t Charm. Charm operated more like a universal tame ability, whereas Mind Control gives you direct control over the mind of a target for a short period of time.

Tame is more similar to Charm than Mind Control, but all three are in the same family of abilities.

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Why not? They are proven to be the most favorite, so why shouldn't more ressources dedicated to them? It sounds more reasonable than dedicating ressources like a new class to unpopular races.

Actually Tinker, Necromancer, and Dragonsworn tend to be the most favored. You rarely hear about DRs anymore due to people disliking Nathanos and tiring of Sylvanas.