1. #5721
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And?

    I don't see how this ability doesn't define the Dark Ranger just because it doesn't operate exactly as it does in HOTS.

    It's still an iconic Dark Ranger ability that carries all the themes that a Dark Ranger embodies.
    This is the WoW version of Haunting Wave:

    Haunting Wave
    Instant
    Releases rolling energy, pushing away enemies upon contact with the waves and inflicting 8262 Shadow damage every half-second.
    A wave of Shadow magic that knocks targets back and deals shadow damage can be utilized by practically any class in WoW that uses Shadow magic. That isn't even close to a defining ability. In fact, the SPriest ability Dark Halo is highly similar to that ability.

  2. #5722
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A wave of Shadow magic that knocks targets back and deals shadow damage can be utilized by practically any class in WoW that uses Shadow magic. That isn't even close to a defining ability. In fact, the SPriest ability Dark Halo is highly similar to that ability.
    Then you're implying a bad faith argument since you're judging Haunting Wave before you've even seen it in the Sylvanas raid, and pre-emptively jumping at comparing it to Dark Halo. You have no intention to regard any Dark Ranger ability as class defining.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-17 at 02:09 AM.

  3. #5723
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post

    Nothing elf-centric about Humans and Forsaken.
    Giving it to everyone without a justified explanation is the shallowing of lore.
    giving to other elf races, "just because they are elves" is "shallowing" the lore and by a stupid reason, which is worse

    Dark ranger already is a bad choice for new class, and very unlikely by itself, make it elf-centric would be just dumb
    By name.
    Draenei Rangari, as i've said before, i can see being viable. Less so Thunderlords, who i see more as Beastmasters. Plus, they don't have a dedicated group for such Rangers. Though, i could always be wrong.
    "who i see"
    "what i consider"

    dude, again, you are not the one to decide those things, you are just blind by bias and what you like and prefer which is not the point of the topic

  4. #5724
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Have you seen what this ability looks like in the raid?
    Why do we need to see what it looks like? The mechanics are what is important, and it's just a AoE Shadow ability with a knockback. That ability wouldn't be out of place in any existing Shadow class.


    Also, graphics can be updated Metamorphosis got a new graphical update that fits Demon Hunters when it was taken away from Warlocks.

    The new Metamorphosis doesn't look highly similar to the ability that Warlocks once used.

    At any case, it should look like sending out a wave of banshees, which is thematic to Sylvanas' portrayal of the Dark Ranger. I expect nothing less out of a Dark Ranger Player class.
    The graphics aren't important, it's all about the mechanics. For example, regardless of how it looked, Metamorphosis was always about the ability to transform into a demon.

  5. #5725
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    ? Why are we asking why players *won't* get a Banshee form if we're talking about a possible future Class that is designed around Sylvanas?

    I mean that's like implying Death Knights should not have any Frost powers because they don't specifically wield Frostmourne. If you could abstract a reason for them to use it simply through altering runes, as weird as it seems, then why can't you fathom any other possible way for characters to use a Banshee form?

    Warlocks literally learned to use Metamorphosis just by observing Illidan. The ability is not exactly what Demon Hunters use, but it gets the job done.

    Warlocks even had Glyph of Demon Hunting which allowed them a secondary feature of turning into a different type of Demon Form that retains their original looks.

    In WoW lore, only Demon Hunters were able to use Metamorphosis because of the specific ritual sacrifice that allowed them to use these powers. Can you not even acknowledge that Blizzard changed their own lore to allow Warlocks to use this ability?



    Then they don't need to. As I said, a form is just a form.

    Shadow Form turns you into a shadowy apparition that you can see through, and you can't pass through solid objects either.



    I didn't say it was going to justify a playable Dark Ranger.

    You seem focused on Dark Rangers being playable, while I'm simply arguing that you can't dismiss them on the basis that the NPCs in WoW aren't showing off banshee powers like Sylvanas.

    My point is *nothing stops Blizzard* from defining Dark Ranger differently from what you regard Dark Ranger through the WoW NPC.



    Er, what you said here is just an opinion.

    You even replied to Ielenia that you didn't know there was a difference between Hunter Black Arrow and Dark Ranger Black Arrow. You still aren't regarding that there is a difference.

    Hunters version of Black arrow summoned dark beasts. Dark Rangers create skeletons. There is a thematic difference between these themes. A Hunter would not summon skeletons, since their overall theme is based on Beasts, and that's how Black Arrow was modified to fit the class.


    You just used your opinion right now to say Shadowburn shot is just explosive shot. That's not a fact. Hunters do not have this ability, so you're simply ignoring the fact a difference exists.

    Again, I'm not using this as *proof* that a Dark Ranger would be playable. I'm *debunking your statements* that there are no differences.

    I agree that a Dark Ranger would not likely be playable. I agree that there's not a significant amount of unique or interesting material to create an entire new Dark Ranger class out of.

    However, I would not accept a blatant dishonest lie that says WoW is a definitive source saying that Dark Rangers are just Hunters. There is no evidence for that, and that is what I'm pointing out to you. The fact that you are saying there are literally no differences, then even acknowleding that there are differences that exist.
    I've explained things numerous times. You are now continuing to be purposely obtuse so I'm not going to humor any of the statements you made in this post. I shouldn't need to repeat myself just because you are unwilling to accept facts.

    For the record, I said I forgot black arrow summoned an undead minion. When hunters had it, it did that too but I had forgotten because it's been a while. But it backs up my statement that dark rangers are nothing more than undead elf hunters.

  6. #5726
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Paladins are a standard RPG class. They don’t need defining abilities. Shaman had totems, Druids had shape shifting, and Warlocks controlled demons.

    Dark Rangers?
    Disc Priest is the most boring of the Priests and there's lots of room for improvement there but I don't have anything good. I think Necromancer could be a good Priest spec, but that pissed a lot of people off last time I tried to talk about it.

  7. #5727
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Disc Priest is the most boring of the Priests and there's lots of room for improvement there but I don't have anything good. I think Necromancer could be a good Priest spec, but that pissed a lot of people off last time I tried to talk about it.
    Disc Priest should lean more heavily into the "Grey" Priest spec territory where they utilize more Shadow magic to the point where the spec is truly a balance between Shadow and Light. More spells like Arcangel, Dark Halo, and/or Shadowmend would be a huge benefit.

  8. #5728
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why do we need to see what it looks like? The mechanics are what is important, and it's just a AoE Shadow ability with a knockback. That ability wouldn't be out of place in any existing Shadow class.

    The graphics aren't important, it's all about the mechanics. For example, regardless of how it looked, Metamorphosis was always about the ability to transform into a demon.
    Why are the mechanics important if you are simply looking for an ability that defines a class?

    Bloodlust is an iconic Shaman ability. Blizzard happened to share it with Mages, but it does not make it any less iconic to the Shaman. It still defines the Shaman class to this day.

    If not, Blizzard could give Dark Ranger Charm, which is their WC3 version of Mind Control. Have it work like Heroes of the Storm's MC, which fires an arrow and makes the enemy walk forward.

  9. #5729
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Why are the mechanics important if you are simply looking for an ability that defines a class?
    Because if the ability is generic enough to pop up in multiple classes, then its not a defining ability.

    A Shadow AoE with a knockback is rather generic.

    Bloodlust is an iconic Shaman ability. Blizzard happened to share it with Mages, but it does not make it any less iconic to the Shaman. It still defines the Shaman class to this day.
    An iconic ability is not the same as a defining ability. Shaman didn't get Bloodlust until TBC, but Shaman always had totems. Additionally, Mages got Time Warp and Hunters got Primal Rage for balance reasons. Raids were bringing Shaman ONLY because they had Bloodlust.

    If not, Blizzard could give Dark Ranger Charm, which is their WC3 version of Mind Control. Have it work like Heroes of the Storm's MC, which fires an arrow and makes the enemy walk forward.
    Why couldn't Hunters get that ability? They utilize multiple magical arrows and arrows that cause status effects.

  10. #5730
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because if the ability is generic enough to pop up in multiple classes, then its not a defining ability.
    You mean like Metamorphosis?

    A Shadow AoE with a knockback is rather generic.
    If you say so.

    An iconic ability is not the same as a defining ability.
    Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?

    Why couldn't Hunters get that ability? They utilize multiple magical arrows and arrows that cause status effects.
    Sure, the could get that ability.

    Feel free to start a thread on that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    For the record, I said I forgot black arrow summoned an undead minion. When hunters had it, it did that too but I had forgotten because it's been a while. But it backs up my statement that dark rangers are nothing more than undead elf hunters.
    Yes, if Dark Rangers only summoned undead beasts, then they would be undead elf hunters. I would agree with you on that assessment.

    If all Dark Rangers exhibited Nathanos' abilities and only to the extent of his abilities, then I would agree with you that they could be considered Hunters. He uses pets, he uses melee weapons, and he doesn't really touch on any magical or supernatural abilities. He's simply a Ranger/Hunter who is undead.

    But as I've stated, Dark Rangers use Black Arrow which summons skeletons, and they use Wailing Arrow which emits Banshee screams. These are supernatural abilities that the Hunter never had. There is a clear difference here that you're still unwilling to admit to.

  11. #5731
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You mean like Metamorphosis?
    I'm only aware of one class that currently has the ability to transform into a demon. On the other hand, practically every class that uses Shadow magic has a Shadow-based AoE ability.

    Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?
    Again, standard RPG classes don't need defining abilities. Classes unique to WoW like Druids, Shaman, Warlocks, Demon Hunters, and potentially Tinkers need defining abilities/concepts to properly separate them from the standard classes.

    Take the Tinker class for example, without the mech piloting concept to fully define the class, the concept begins to bleed into the Hunter class since you could make the argument that Hunters could expand their use of explosives and guns. The mech aspect sets a proper dividing line between the concepts, because mech piloting is far beyond any reasonable concept of the Hunter class.

    The problem with the Dark Ranger concept is that the Hunter class has a history of using its signature ability (Black Arrow), and a solid foundation of utilizing magical arrows and shots. So why do we need a Dark Ranger class when we can simply expand the existing Hunter concept of utilizing magical arrows to utilize Shadow magic?

    Also with people clamoring for a revamp of MM and Survival, this just makes the idea of another Ranger class seem even more unlikely.

  12. #5732
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You mean like Metamorphosis?



    If you say so.



    Then what is the Paladin's defining ability?



    Sure, the could get that ability.

    Feel free to start a thread on that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, if Dark Rangers only summoned undead beasts, then they would be undead elf hunters. I would agree with you on that assessment.

    If all Dark Rangers exhibited Nathanos' abilities and only to the extent of his abilities, then I would agree with you that they could be considered Hunters. He uses pets, he uses melee weapons, and he doesn't really touch on any magical or supernatural abilities. He's simply a Ranger/Hunter who is undead.

    But as I've stated, Dark Rangers use Black Arrow which summons skeletons, and they use Wailing Arrow which emits Banshee screams. These are supernatural abilities that the Hunter never had. There is a clear difference here that you're still unwilling to admit to.
    Black Arrow functions the exact same way. Whether it's a beast or skeleton is utterly irrelevant. Wailing Arrow is literally just Explosive Shot that does shadow instead of fire damage. The only difference is that it silences enemies. There is nothing to admit to. You are making comments about something that isn't there. You're doing mental gymnastics to justify dark ranger as a class. Whether you like it or not, Black Arrow is something hunters have had in the past and Wailing Arrow is just explosive shot with an added silence effect, which sounds like something that could have been done in the old glyphs system. You're grasping at straws pretty hardcore.

  13. #5733
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You're grasping at straws pretty hardcore.
    Pray tell what straws am I grasping at?

    Can you tell me what exactly I'm trying to prove? Do you understand the arguments that I'm actually making?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm only aware of one class that currently has the ability to transform into a demon. On the other hand, practically every class that uses Shadow magic has a Shadow-based AoE ability.
    Currently?

    So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.

    I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?

    Again, standard RPG classes don't need defining abilities.
    Sure they do.

    Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

    So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?

  14. #5734
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Pray tell what straws am I grasping at?

    Can you tell me what exactly I'm trying to prove? Do you understand the arguments that I'm actually making?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Currently?

    So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.

    I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?



    Sure they do.

    Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

    So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?
    You keep trying to make this point that dark rangers are different enough from hunters because of two spells. Yet you keep disregarding the fact that hunter has had Black Arrow in the past and that Wailing Arrow is just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage and has a silence effect. The mechanics dark rangers have shown in the game since it started is no different than hunters. You keep pushing Wailing Arrow's flavor text like that somehow changes gameplay when it doesn't. You keep ignoring established lore for dark rangers by saying things like "They can take on Banshee form" despite none of them being banshees.

    Oh and you're completely wrong about paladins in D&D. Clerics ALSO get Turn Undead. A more apt defining feature of paladins is Smites. As for paladins in WoW, they don't really have a defining ability anymore because their party wide auras aren't really a thing anymore. Holy Power I guess could be a defining feature?
    Last edited by TheRevenantHero; 2021-04-17 at 06:06 AM.

  15. #5735
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You keep trying to make this point that dark rangers are different enough from hunters because of two spells. Yet you keep disregarding the fact that hunter has had Black Arrow in the past and that Wailing Arrow is just Explosive Shot that does shadow damage and has a silence effect. The mechanics dark rangers have shown in the game since it started is no different than hunters. You keep pushing Wailing Arrow's flavor text like that somehow changes gameplay when it doesn't. You keep ignoring established lore for dark rangers by saying things like "They can take on Banshee form" despite none of them being banshees.
    If you said they have similar abilities, I would agree with you.

    But you are specifically saying their abilities are *no different* from each other, that they are the same.

    Holy Priests and Paladins have very similar abilities to each other. Mechanically, some are even exactly the same. But Redemption is not Ressurection; these are not the same abilities. Greater Heal is not Holy Light, these are not the same abilities. They are functionally and mechanically similar, and if you said they were similar, I would agree. If you said they were the same, you'd be a dishonest liar and I'd call you out on making that erroneous assumption. They are not the same ability.

    Here, you are continuing to be a dishonest liar. If you wish to say they are similar, I would wholeheartedly agree. If you say they are no different from each other, you are absolutely dishonest, because you even acknowledge that there are differences between Wailing Arrow and Explosive Shot in both name and mechanics.

    Look, I'm not looking for 'GOTCHA' moment to say if you acknowledge these as different, then Dark Rangers are automatically their own class. No. I am having you acknowledge that you're using an erroneous comparison of abilities that literally are not the same.

    No different means *no differences*. If Wailing Arrow has a silence component where Explosive Shot does not, then they are not the same ability.

    Again, I have blatantly said I don't believe Dark Ranger would even be made into their class, so I'm not trying to prove you wrong on that front. I'm literally pointing out that you are literally lying to my face, or at least not aware of what words you're using when you say something is *no different* from something else.

    If you see a tomato that really looks like an apple, you can't say that these two things are no different from each other. We both know they're different things. You can say they're similar, but you are lying if you say they are the same.

    Dark Ranger NPCs have similar abilities to a Hunter, and the similarities are to the point where it's not likely to consider making a full class out of them. However they do not share the same abilities, and we should acknowledge that there ARE differences. If you're unwilling to even acknowledge this truth, then I'm just going to regard you as a liar, and I will no longer waste my time with you.

    Oh and you're completely wrong about paladins in D&D. Clerics ALSO get Turn Undead. A more apt defining feature of paladins is Smites. As for paladins in WoW, they don't really have a defining ability anymore because their party wide auras aren't really a thing anymore. Holy Power I guess could be a defining feature?
    Ah yes, I was thinking Smite not Turn Evil. Thank you for the correction.

    Holy Power could easily be adapted as a Priest resource. We know that there are unique resources allocated to certain specs, like how Shadow had Shadow Orbs and now Insanity as a resource.

    It's not something unique to Paladins or considered class defining.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-17 at 06:42 AM.

  16. #5736
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    But dark rangers in WoW are literally just undead hunters. They don't have any abilities that separate them from hunters.
    Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
    Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

    How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
    They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)

  17. #5737
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
    Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

    How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
    They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)
    Not to mention that dark rangers at least have a certain stealth aspect to them that is not part of the hunter class in wow right now - even with camouflage. Hunters as they are now certainly don't cover the full thematic range of something like dark ranger. In general, hunters in WoW are like a niche part of the ranger archetype, ranger with beastmaster specialization, even more so since they made survival melee BM with traps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Holy Power could easily be adapted as a Priest resource. We know that there are unique resources allocated to certain specs, like how Shadow had Shadow Orbs and now Insanity as a resource.
    Holy Power is just like any other random combo point offshot, it's part of the builder/spender gameplay type. You can make these for any class really, not sure I follow where you guys are going with this part of the discussion. They used to have seals and judgements, which pretty much was kinda like a smite ability, but sadly Blizzard killed/neutered that for the most part..
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2021-04-17 at 09:24 AM.
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  18. #5738
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Currently?

    So you'd be fine if Dark Rangers got Mind Control back and had it taken away from Shadow Priests to satisfy your personal definition of a class-defining ability then.
    Back? Dark Rangers never had mind control before it showed up in the WoW Priest class.


    I mean, since we're talking about current abilities, that's the solution, right? It never was the Priest's ability to begin with, it always originated from the Dark Ranger. And it doesn't matter if they used to have the ability, since we're talking about current state of classes, correct? We pretend that the Warlock never had Metamorphosis?
    Dark Rangers had Charm, not Mind Control. Also even that isn’t a very unique ability since multiple classes have or had similar abilities in WoW. Warlocks have control demons, DKs have control undead, Shaman had control elemental, Druids have Hibernate, Hunters have tame, etc. Mental manipulation or control isn’t something confined to one class.


    Sure they do.

    Even Paladins have a defining ability in D&D - Turn Undead. It's an ability that no other D&D class has access to, and it defines the Paladin as a holy warrior who fights evil.

    So what is the defining ability of the Paladin in WoW?
    Again, standard RPG classes don’t need defining abilities or concepts. Why? Because a Paladin is well known and shows up in pretty much any RPG you play. The same applies to Warriors, Rogues, Priests, Mages, Hunters, and Monks. You fire up a RPG and see a Paladin class, you pretty much know what you’re getting. Paladins for example will always be a heavily armored fighter that uses holy magic.

    Demon Hunters, Dark Rangers, Death Knights, Shaman, Druids, and Tinkers need defining abilities to separate them from those classes above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
    Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

    How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
    They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)
    They showed non Arthas DKs with the ability to raise the dead and use Necromancy. That’s the defining concept of DKs. They showed non Illidan Demon Hunters with metamorphosis in Black Temple. That’s the defining concept of Demon Hunters.

    People are simply asking what makes Dark Ranger a unique concept and not simply a “dark” version of the existing Hunter class.

  19. #5739
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Don't focus just on WoW, look at all the sources: WC3 & HotS Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger class in the TTRPG, etc.
    Don't take NPCs in WoW like a perfect representation of the class/concept.

    How many DKs did you show in-game that were exactly like they're now? And DHs?
    They don't even represent the classes currently in-game (How many NPC warriors do you see using Avatar? Or paladin using wings?)
    No. I'm not going to look at games other than Warcraft games. HotS is a MOBA and functions in a COMPLETELY different way so there is no way in hell I'm going to take it seriously when talking about potential classes for WoW.

  20. #5740
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it's also relevant because it explains why the WC3 version of Black Arrow wouldn't enter the class lineup.
    Not really, considering we have other class abilities that have "on kill" procs. Victory Rush, for example.

    No, the WC3 version of Black Arrow requires you to kill the target with Black Arrow specifically. Victory Rush activates regardless of what you kill a target with.
    Black Arrow in WC3 is an auto-attack buff, so nine out of ten times, you're killing the mobs with Black Arrow. In WoW, though, Black Arrow is a damage over time debuff. So it's easy to kill a mob under the effects of Black Arrow.

    Yeah, but the minion may accidentally trigger because you killed a mob with Black Arrow. Conversely, you may need the minion and it won't trigger because you accidentally killed the mob with a different ability.

    Again, the ability is more trouble than its worth. Both Hunter variations are superior.
    Except the WoW version of the WC3 ability is a dot, so it's super easy to kill a mob under the effect of the Black Arrow debuff, considering considering the ability has no CD.

    Except that isn't the WC3 version of Black Arrow.
    It is the WoW version of it, though. The only difference is that BA is not an auto-cast buff that increases auto-attack damage, but an active ability that leaves a dot instead of dealing direct damage. Everything else about the spell is the exact same.

    According to Wowpedia, the Priest ability Mind Control is a Charm. That says a lot.
    According to logic, that is a red herring. That says a lot. The priest's mind control ability being considered a charm is meaningless.

    Again, in a class that can shoot fire, frost, nature, and arcane arrows, why is it out of line for them to shoot shadow arrows?
    Because necromaqncy is not the kind of stuff you find in nature. Necromancy, by its very design, is unnatural.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Sure we do have examples of mind manipulation through magic and items. Dark rangers don't have those abilities though.
    Can you show me an example of a paladin using frost magic before Wrath, though? It doesn't matter that the current NPCs don't do any of that. It's a possible part of their concept.

    Also, no. Death knights, when they were introduced in WC3, were paladins that traveled to the source of the plague and ended up at the Icecrown Citadel. They were offered power by the Lich King and they accepted. They then had their souls bound to the Lich King's will. They were then also granted vampiric runeblades and became the Scourge's strongest generals.

    So you're completely wrong about death knights being nothing but paladins before Wrath. Meanwhile, dark rangers literally are just undead quel'dorei rangers. And as I said, "ranger" is literally just another word for Hunter in elven society.
    In other words: they were paladins who turned evil. Just like I wrote. No death knight prior to Wrath were once anything other than paladins. And yet the death knights of today come from all "classes" and characters. Which is why saying "all dark rangers are undead quel'dorei hunters" is meaningless.
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