1. #5941
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And that's still a Staff type weapon, which multiple classes already use. The Staff weapon type already exists, and this is just another type of staff. It's not a different weapon type.

    Claw Packs aren't even in the game. I don't see what you're trying to compare here. I mean, if anything they're more similar to the back customization visuals we have in Shadowlands. Stuff that's given out with Covenants.
    Backpacks are in the game, and that’s all the claw pack is; a mechanical backpack. Again, no different than the Monk staff.

  2. #5942
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Backpacks are in the game, and that’s all the claw pack is; a mechanical backpack. Again, no different than the Monk staff.
    The Monk Staff doesn't turn into a Vehicle that you use in combat as far as I'm aware. I think there is a slight difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #5943
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Monk Staff doesn't turn into a Vehicle that you use in combat as far as I'm aware. I think there is a slight difference.
    Which is irrelevant, since that’s an ability, and like I said a few posts back, numerous abilities entered WoW only when the associated class entered the game.

    It’s also irrelevant because we’re really talking about mech form, not the claw pack.

  4. #5944
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    How is an elf-centric class dumb when elves are overwhelmingly the most popular races in the game?
    Because it doesn't meet his standards. You can see that looking over his historial: he doesn't like elves (I would say that even hates them), and therefore, everything related to them is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphabet View Post
    There should be some kind of class which will act as buffer. Unique party/raid buffs with rotation which will buff players and refill their resource in some way. I played this kind of class in DCUO. It was Controller class and if you execute your dps rotation right you will replenish some of the resource (energy) of other players. Main job of this class was CC in party. They can make it work in WoW. Lets say you will carry raid Standart and buff players with some unique yells and shit like this
    That type of class doesn't have a place in WoW sadly.
    DCUO (like Champions Online) is loosely based on the City of Heroes archetype system:
    - Tanker: the tank.
    - Defender: here we have the classic healer, but also the damage avoider through shielding allies or debuffing enemies.
    - Controller: the crowd control of the party.
    - Blaster: the glass cannon, mostly ranged, but with some melee abilities.
    - Scrapper: the melee DPS, with damage and survival in between the Tanker and the Blaster.

    And the villian counterparts being like a mix of the previous:
    - Brute: something between Tanker and Scrapper
    - Corruptor: something between Defender and Blaster
    - Dominator: something between Controller and Blaster
    - Mastermind: The pet class
    - Stalker: the stealth class, also being a melee glass cannon

    Meanwhile, WoW just follows the Trinity class system (and it does it very strictly):
    - Tank: the wall. The only one that can be hit.
    - Healer: while we have some healers that can add damage mitigation in the form of shields, they mostly rely on healing.
    - DPS: mostly glass cannons

    The controller aspect is granted to almost all classes, and the scrapper is erased everytime that it pops its head (retri forbearance, bear and cat on separate specs, nerfs to havoc survivability, etc).

  5. #5945
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread is about *all* possible new classes for WoW, not just Tinkers. The thread needs a bit of breathing room from the "pro-" and "anti-" debate about Tinkers. Let's pivot on to some other possible classes and put this rolling debate to rest.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #5946
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue_(Warcraft_III)

    Also multiple units in WC3 were considered "warriors";









    etc.

    It should also be noted that Warrior and Rogue are very generic RPG classes. They don't require the level of seeding that something like a Bard would require.
    Are you prepping for a workout? Because that was some excellent stretching!

    Bard is just as generic as Warrior and Rogue in the RPG world. I don't think they're likely in WoW, but this particular argument doesn't hold water.

  7. #5947
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Are you prepping for a workout? Because that was some excellent stretching!

    Bard is just as generic as Warrior and Rogue in the RPG world. I don't think they're likely in WoW, but this particular argument doesn't hold water.
    In the MMOs I've played, the Bard tends to be a mixture of Archers and/or Rogues.

    In any case, the main point was that such a class has never been seeded by Blizzard, and its traditional style of support gameplay has been largely rejected by WoW's trinity system. That's a rather large hinderance because that's the main appeal of the Bard class. I think in order to make the Bard a bit more tangible, Blizzard needs to give us a Bard hero character with unique abilities that show us what a Bard in WoW would actually DO, and with lore and history that can allow us to produce an expansion around that character and other Bard characters.

    Until that happens, we're just spinning our tires with that concept.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-04-19 at 02:34 PM.

  8. #5948
    This class may have been mentioned earlier on in this thread, but Shadowhunters would be a nice new class to see. Would be interesting as a player to bond with the Loa and get the chance to play a class based around Loa empowered abilities.

  9. #5949
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah again, having a second health bar isn’t the purpose of a vehicle at all.
    We're not talking purpose. We're talking gimmick. Those are not one and the same. Don't try to move the goalposts.

    Um no, since the pilot also takes damage along with the vehicle. So no, it doesn’t work exactly like the vehicle mechanic.
    The HP loss is irrelevant, though, because we're still talking about separate health bars.

    Is there a Druid mechanic you can point to that allows the Druid to cheat death by exiting Druid form?
    I'm using the druid shapeshift mechanic because it's highly likely that's how it'll work for the mech form: changing the player's model while allowing the use of abilities normally not usable outside of mech form.

    That really doesn’t change the fact that we have multiple examples of vehicles from that original link you posted and the majority of them don’t use the vehicle mechanic from your second link.
    But those are not vehicles in the game mechanic form. I've shown you the correct link that shows we already have "vehicle mechanic" in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In the MMOs I've played, the Bard tends to be a mixture of Archers and/or Rogues.
    And paladins are a mixture of warriors and priests. And demon hunters can be argued to be a mixture of rogues and warlocks. So what's your point? :/

    In any case, the main point was that such a class has never been seeded by Blizzard,
    It has, though. Bards are actual characters within Warcraft, we have evidence that music, on its own, has magical power, and we have bards and bard-like characters casting actual spells.

    and its traditional style of support gameplay has been largely rejected by WoW's trinity system.
    As repeated numerous times by others and ignored just as many times by you, bards don't have to be "support".

    That's a rather large hinderance because that's the main appeal of the Bard class.
    You don't get to speak for others about what they like and what they want out of a bard class, especially since you are arguing against the class at every opportunity.

    Until that happens, we're just spinning our tires with that concept.
    You are spinning tires. We got our feet firmly planted on the ground using in-game evidence, while you cling to your arbitrary restrictions.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  10. #5950
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #5951
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And paladins are a mixture of warriors and priests. And demon hunters can be argued to be a mixture of rogues and warlocks. So what's your point? :/
    I wouldn't consider them generic classes either.

    It has, though. Bards are actual characters within Warcraft, we have evidence that music, on its own, has magical power, and we have bards and bard-like characters casting actual spells.
    We had Arthas, Chen, and Illidan for the Monk, DK, and DH classes. What character do we have lined up for Bards?


    As repeated numerous times by others and ignored just as many times by you, bards don't have to be "support".
    Then what purpose do they serve?


    You don't get to speak for others about what they like and what they want out of a bard class, especially since you are arguing against the class at every opportunity.
    Again, it is the support aspect that makes the Bard and Dancer aspects appealing. Turning the Bard into just another magic user strips away the uniqueness and purpose of the concept. At that point you might as well just divide the music/sound abilities among the existing classes (which Blizzard has largely done).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    Yeah, I just don't see a path for a Bard without a strong support foundation. It's kind of their niche, and honestly it flows nicely with the concept of music as a magic source. You take that away and what do we have? A Bard shooting fireballs by singing? A melee Bard shouting while slashing a target? In a game without a non-healing support role available, where does a Bard fit into the equation?

    I think it's quite telling that in that Bard concept thread, a good portion of the responses were "You did an amazing job and clearly put in a lot of work, but this just doesn't feel like something that belongs in WoW".

  12. #5952
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    Yeah, they'd have to go full ETC with Bard if they do it at all, but I don't know if they'd ever lean into the zaniness of the franchise that much.

  13. #5953
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, I just don't see a path for a Bard without a strong support foundation. It's kind of their niche, and honestly it flows nicely with the concept of music as a magic source. You take that away and what do we have? A Bard shooting fireballs by singing? A melee Bard shouting while slashing a target? In a game without a non-healing support role available, where does a Bard fit into the equation?

    I think it's quite telling that in that Bard concept thread, a good portion of the responses were "You did an amazing job and clearly put in a lot of work, but this just doesn't feel like something that belongs in WoW".
    I kind of like the idea of the Bard from the "Dragon Age" series, which in that world was a combination of the classical musical storyteller and also a skilled assassin. In classical D&D the Bard is sort of a jack of all trades type of class, combining a Rogue, a Sorcerer/Wizard, and a basic Fighter. How that gets implemented would require some thought, but you could easily wind up with a class who can functionally be a melee DPS (for example wielding a guitar as a melee weapon, taking a kind of Thrash Metal approach to the Bard stereotype), a ranged DPS (using music to generate spell-like effects and/or DoT's), and also a healer using music to heal and/or buff, similar to a Disc Priest.

    Personally speaking I don't have a lot of interest in a Bard class myself, but I could see it working in WoW with a bit of work.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #5954
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    a bit of work.
    That's why I don't see it happening. It would have to be forced - an unnatural addition. I find it to be much like Necromancer in that regard. The class itself is fantastic in other settings, and I see why people would like to see it in WoW... but the WarCraft franchise isn't really the proper place for them.

  15. #5955
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread is about *all* possible new classes for WoW, not just Tinkers. The thread needs a bit of breathing room from the "pro-" and "anti-" debate about Tinkers. Let's pivot on to some other possible classes and put this rolling debate to rest.
    Agree, that being said I would play the hell out of a Dark ranger or warden.

    I dont care single bit about tinkers.

  16. #5956
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    That's why I don't see it happening. It would have to be forced - an unnatural addition. I find it to be much like Necromancer in that regard. The class itself is fantastic in other settings, and I see why people would like to see it in WoW... but the WarCraft franchise isn't really the proper place for them.
    How would Necromancer be an unnatural addition to WoW, when they're all over the place and a school of Necromancy exists?

    Or is that not what you were saying?

  17. #5957
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How would Necromancer be an unnatural addition to WoW, when they're all over the place and a school of Necromancy exists?

    Or is that not what you were saying?
    Necromancer would be such a cool class, and I agree it fits perfectly into WoW

  18. #5958
    Bard would be really difficult in WoW for various reasons. While I love the idea of the class in a campaign, WoW simply doesn't have enough opportunities with it's rigid role system and baby-tier, borderline vestigal, RPG implementation to facilitate it. So all we'd get is a dps/healer with some awkward flavor in their spells, since even the utility angle is kinda closed off in WoW, because it doesn't gel well with the morbid competive streak of WoW.

    Even more so than a bard I personally would love to play a proper necromancer, but here we have the issue - that has been discussed to death - that the design space for minion gameplay and the thematic space of darkness and undeath have been kinda exhausted already. Since I got into D&D again during covid I've been itching to play a full on necomancer wizard, but looking through the spells, I've realized that WoW could simply not do it justice. Frankly give me an effects artist and I'll reskin you warlocks into a complete necromancer class, just by swapping some strings and animation files.

    My personal hope would be something like a battlemage / spellbreaker, essentially a spellblade alluriel as a 4th spec for mages that reintroduces seal gameplay back into the game by charging up depending on the active seal (a buff) and then using it in different ways (cleave/cone, st, aoe, defense) and playing around with different combos by switching between the elements, like shattering frozen targets with arcane. I know I've been repeating myself, but given the other people here and the last 298 pages that shouldn't be too much of an issue .

    Another one I'm missing is a caster spec that focuses mostly on wind/lightning/storm, not just the half-assed shaman stuff. A high fantasy game without "wind blades" magic seems kinda like a scam. Also, I'm defnitely open to a magical archer type of class as well, but I'd prefer if it wasn't pigeon-holed by the very niche dark ranger fantasy (could be one spec though).
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  19. #5959
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Tanks/siege machines - existed back in WC3, they're steam powered machines with canons and armour, nothing fancy, its not like some modern MBT.
    Yeah, but they're still mechanical siege machines.
    What I traied to convey is that Warcraft is not the traditional high fantasy like Lord of the Rings. I don't know if there's a term for it, but is more a type of epic fantasy mixed with steampunk (which is no surprise knowing that has its origins on Warhammer and the heavy metal passion from the original creators).

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Its completely different a zeppelin flying about and being visible every few minutes to 500 tinkers running around shooting rockets and jetpacking around orgrimmar.

    The difference is all of these things are present but not common. You don't often see tanks, you see them in big battlegrounds and sieges.

    Zeppelins are part of very traditional goblin tech, as seen regularly in WC3
    Well, on that I agree. But it's nothing we can't do. And I think over time it would decrease, like it happened with all other new classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Teleporters are magic based
    No, they're not. I'm talking about the ones like the one you use to go to Gnomeregan.


    Or the wormholes that engineers do.
    They're technomagical at most.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Starships - Yes, and for one as a fan of the original WC1,2,3 RTS games, I find all this stuff very jarring, I hate it infact. Not the reason I came to love WoW and I hope to see as little as possible of it in the future.
    Most people agree with that. But once you open the can, you can't close it. Now it feels weird why they were never used on BFA: "Hey, we have a Light-shooting flying death machine over here, do you want some help?" "Nah, we'll ship some tanks and lots of cannon fodder, thanks".

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Cannons and rifles are too primitive, a traditional WC3 rifleman 'blunderbuss' is a very early form of rifle, we see primitive canons and rifles in the 1300s which is fairly between the dark ages and medieval period. Laser-based projectiles again, I find jarring unless its just on some random goblin boss.
    Still, not very typical on classical high fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Mechanical beast??? How do you mean.
    As in beasts that are machines: https://es.wowhead.com/mechanical-hunter-pet-guide
    Lots, and I mean LOTS of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Long story short, I can stomach a mortar, cannon, rifle etc, black powder weapons etc, but laser beams, rockets, starships, jetpacks etc I find jarring. And please, don't tell me maybe Warcraft isn't for me. I played 1,2,3 all on release and consider this franchise my favorite game franchise of all time, Im well aware of what Warcraft is, its just that its increasingly getting less fantasy and more techy, and I personally don't like that.
    One word: Mechagon.
    Warcraft always was very techy. It's closer to D&D Eberron than it is to Lord of the Rings.

  20. #5960
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wouldn't consider them generic classes either.
    Bards and paladins are generic classes. They have been part of THE most famous RPG of all time, Dungeons and Dragons, for decades. It was added in a supplement during the first edition, and then became a staple of the genre, being forever a part of it. And then any subsequent games, comics, animation set in a high fantasy medieval world always have their paladins. To say they're not "generic classes" is downright dishonest.

    We had Arthas, Chen, and Illidan for the Monk, DK, and DH classes. What character do we have lined up for Bards?
    We didn't have a character for the monk, though. Blizzard had to make an existing character into a monk for the monk class. And I'll repeat what you've ignored a thousand times: the runemaster class concept proves that we do not need an already established and lore-important hero, considering we never had a "runemaster" NPC in WoW, and still don't.

    Then what purpose do they serve?
    What is the purpose of a death knight? What is the purpose of a warrior? A rogue? A monk? A paladin? A mage? Define "purpose".

    Again, it is the support aspect that makes the Bard and Dancer aspects appealing.
    I'll repeat what I said and you ignored, Teriz: you don't get to speak for the bard supporters about what they want out of the class or not. Especially since you're against the class in the first place. That'd be like me saying that tinker fans just want to gut the engineering profession to make room for their class idea.

    Turning the Bard into just another magic user strips away the uniqueness and purpose of the concept.
    It does not. You don't get to say what is the "uniqueness" and "purpose" of a class concept you do not like.

    At that point you might as well just divide the music/sound abilities among the existing classes (which Blizzard has largely done).
    Like Blizzard did with the demon hunter, "dividing the demon hunter abilities among existing classes"?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

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