1. #5961
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wouldn't consider them generic classes either.
    We had Arthas, Chen, and Illidan for the Monk, DK, and DH classes. What character do we have lined up for Bards?
    This is why I cannot see a bard. Its just not a fantasy that really exists in any major or even minor form in WoW.

    I can see Necro, runecarver and tinker though

  2. #5962
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I kind of like the idea of the Bard from the "Dragon Age" series, which in that world was a combination of the classical musical storyteller and also a skilled assassin. In classical D&D the Bard is sort of a jack of all trades type of class, combining a Rogue, a Sorcerer/Wizard, and a basic Fighter. How that gets implemented would require some thought, but you could easily wind up with a class who can functionally be a melee DPS (for example wielding a guitar as a melee weapon, taking a kind of Thrash Metal approach to the Bard stereotype), a ranged DPS (using music to generate spell-like effects and/or DoT's), and also a healer using music to heal and/or buff, similar to a Disc Priest.

    Personally speaking I don't have a lot of interest in a Bard class myself, but I could see it working in WoW with a bit of work.
    My idea I is that the bard could have a spec being an "intellect melee DPS", with an int sword on the main hand, and an off-hand item, basically to leave that hand 'free' (as in, not participating in the fight) as if he's fighting fencing style. The ranged DPS would be a spellcaster spec. As for the instruments, my idea is that the casting/channeling animations would be of them playing their instrument, instead of the basic casting/channeling animations, like the paladin has its own custom casting animations with them flipping the pages of their holy books.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  3. #5963
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Necromancer would be such a cool class, and I agree it fits perfectly into WoW
    I won't deny that making one would take a bit of work to ensure that it's mechanics don't significantly overlap with Warlock and Death Knight, but that wouldn't be that difficult. There's plenty of inspiration to draw from.

    Overlap is fine, in both theme and mechanics, just not too much.

  4. #5964
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    One word: Mechagon.
    Warcraft always was very techy. It's closer to D&D Eberron than it is to Lord of the Rings.
    Mechagon is about as relevant to the overall franchise as Agamand's Mills.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  5. #5965
    Bard, tinker or Dragonsworn.

    I'm more partial to DS as 10.0 will most likely be the dragon isles.

    Necro and DR are the ones that sure as hell won't happen.

    Necro had a perfect opportunity this exp and zip. Same goes for DR's. Especially now with the items that Sylv drops for hunters.

  6. #5966
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    We didn't have a character for the monk, though. Blizzard had to make an existing character into a monk for the monk class.
    Then what major lore character could Blizzard "transform" into a Bard? I mean, there wasn't even a TTRPG Bard class, and the TTRPG covered pretty much everything RPG-wise.

    And I'll repeat what you've ignored a thousand times: the runemaster class concept proves that we do not need an already established and lore-important hero, considering we never had a "runemaster" NPC in WoW, and still don't.
    And that's a poor example, since the Runemaster never became a WoW class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Necro had a perfect opportunity this exp and zip. Same goes for DR's. Especially now with the items that Sylv drops for hunters.
    While not a supporter of either of those class concepts, I'm genuinely shocked that neither were made playable in this expansion.

    And yes, the drops from Sylvanas are very telling indeed.

  7. #5967
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How would Necromancer be an unnatural addition to WoW, when they're all over the place and a school of Necromancy exists?

    Or is that not what you were saying?
    The WarCraft universe treats Necromancy very differently from other universes. It exists, of course, but it's such a low-level threat. It would be akin to making a playable "Bandit" class.

    For example, the Necrolytes of Draenor existed... Gul'dan deemed them useless and told them to prove their arts equal to those of a Warlock. They failed to do so, and those that could not convert to the demonic arts were used as fuel to create the first Death Knights. In one example, Necromancers proved to be inferior to two playable classes.

    The iconic Necromancer from WarCraft III is Kel'Thuzad... who was pretty much instantly killed and the rest of his narrative centers around transcending being a basic Necromancer to become a Lich. Again, Necromancy is used as a stepping stone to a greater power. For the record, I'd be all for a Lich class if done correctly, but that basic Necromancer role is virtually inconsequential.

    The best class representative that came out of WoW was Darkmaster Gandling. A dungeon boss. That is the pinnacle people are striving for?

    In short, Necromancy is pretty top tier in other settings, but in WarCraft? It's trash tier. It's generally the first step that an individual will take when they begin to explore forbidden knowledge, but there's a whole journey of exploring power beyond that first step. Death Knights, Warlocks and Liches are the ultimate expressions of Necromancy in the WarCaft universe. The actual Necromancers themselves have always been relatively pitiful.

    When people ask for Necromancers in this universe, they're actually asking for the Necromancers of other universes to be transplanted here.


    That being said, there are a few ways that we could get Necromancers playable here:

    The most obvious is as a Necromancy Warlock specialization. Contrary to how playable Warlocks are portrayed, there is more to the class than the demonic. They explore forbidden magic. Take a look at the individuals of the Black Harvest for more detail - they have sought out elemental, Void, and draconic power, among others, including Necromancy.

    The second would be a playable Lich class, but it's an incredibly narrow and focused concept that I doubt the developers would explore, especially after doing something as similarly narrow as Demon Hunter. Alternately, a Lich specialization could be added to Death Knight, but that would satisfy few.

    Thirdly, and most interestingly, the Necromancers of the Shadowlands could be added in some capacity. They would utilize the power of Death rather than Undeath, to give the class a very unique flair. That being said, if that option was going to be explored, they missed the boat (unless there are still people in denial that we won't see a new class for Shadowlands).

    Again, I love Necromancers in other settings, just as I love Bards in other settings. I just don't see them fitting into the fabric of the game as their own playable class. When I think of playing as a Necromancer, I think of DnD, Diablo and Elder Scrolls. My concept of a Necromancer just doesn't align with how they are treated in the WarCraft universe.

  8. #5968
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    In case anyone is curious, Hunters get Sylvanas' quiver which gives them a chance to cast Withering Fire, and they get a Bow which changes Kill Shot into Wailing Arrow.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments
    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186414/...nas?bonus=6805

    So the good news is that if you want to be a Dark Ranger, you now have a way to do it in 9.1.

  9. #5969
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post

    [SNIP]

    Again, I love Necromancers in other settings, just as I love Bards in other settings. I just don't see them fitting into the fabric of the game as their own playable class. When I think of playing as a Necromancer, I think of DnD, Diablo and Elder Scrolls. My concept of a Necromancer just doesn't align with how they are treated in the WarCraft universe.
    While all somewhat true, the main reason several of the playable classes are seen as notable, powerful and "worthy" is because they were playable and the player character used those classes to achieve great things. I don't know of very many Rogues, Warriors or Priests that were seen as "powerful" until the player character highlighted them to be so. At least not when WoW launched, since then there have been a few.

    Just because the notable Necromancer characters all get treated like shit, story wise, doesn't mean Necromancy is useless. If they made a playable Necromancer class it would rival all the other playable classes in power by default. And the story line of Shadowlands and Maldraxxus does show that Necromancy is a power to reckon with.

    All that said, Necromancers wouldn't be an "unnatural" addition as you suggested, this is just objectively false. You just seem convinced that necromancy is not powerful enough to be useful, and therefore not a worthwhile addition to the class roster, which is an opinion I disagree with, but is an opinion I can understand.
    Last edited by Katchii; 2021-04-19 at 04:43 PM.

  10. #5970
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In case anyone is curious, Hunters get Sylvanas' quiver which gives them a chance to cast Withering Fire, and they get a Bow which changes Kill Shot into Wailing Arrow.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments
    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186414/...nas?bonus=6805

    So the good news is that if you want to be a Dark Ranger, you now have a way to do it in 9.1.
    Kinda sad the backpiece is still just a cloak. It's 2021 and we still have no quiver models?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #5971
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    While all somewhat true, the main reason several of the playable classes are seen as notable, powerful and "worthy" is because they were playable and the player character used those classes to achieve great things.

    Just because the notable Necromancer characters all get treated like shit, story wise, doesn't mean Necromancy is useless. If they made a playable Necromancer class it would rival all the other playable classes in power by default. And the story line of Shadowlands and Maldraxxus does show that Necromancy is a power to reckon with.

    All that said, Necromancers wouldn't be an "unnatural" addition as you suggested, this is just objectively false. You just seem convinced that necromancy is not powerful enough to be useful, and therefore not a worthwhile addition to the class roster, which is an opinion I disagree with, but is an opinion I can understand.
    Fair enough. "Unnatural" was too strong a word to use for Necromancy. It does have its place in the WarCraft universe. I simply see it as more of a tool than a goal unto itself. I won't harp on this much more, as people have done so ad nauseum, but we still the ultimate expressions of Necromancy in the Death Knight, Lich, and Warlock classes. I would be all for leaning into those themes a little more on those classes - I can't fathom a playable Necromancer class contributing anything unique to the playable roster when that slot is in direct competition with other ideas.

    That being said... it would definitely be cool to see Warlocks in their playable iteration expand beyond the demonic. How cool would it be to utilize the power of the Firelands, like Ritssyn, or the Sundering, like Zinnin?
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-04-19 at 04:50 PM.

  12. #5972
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Kinda sad the backpiece is still just a cloak. It's 2021 and we still have no quiver models?
    They haven't completed the model yet. We're still in PTR. It's going to be a quiver.

    That said, it's quite interesting to see a weapon change a class ability. Very interesting mechanic moving forward.

  13. #5973
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They haven't completed the model yet. We're still in PTR. It's going to be a quiver.

    That said, it's quite interesting to see a weapon change a class ability. Very interesting mechanic moving forward.
    I'm down with it. More customization is always welcomed, and I love it when they add these kind of throwbacks to certain lore heroes, like giving the Mages the Verdant Spheres.

    I just hope they can do something to make these effects relevant in future expansions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #5974
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm down with it. More customization is always welcomed, and I love it when they add these kind of throwbacks to certain lore heroes, like giving the Mages the Verdant Spheres.

    I just hope they can do something to make these effects relevant in future expansions.
    Let's not forget that Mages got the Spheres only after Warlocks had them taken away.

  15. #5975
    Non-existent. They have enough trouble getting 36 specs right. You want them to add 3-4 more?!?!

  16. #5976
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Non-existent. They have enough trouble getting [X] specs right. You want them to add 3-4 more?!?!
    They've been saying this for the entire lifespan of the game. Classes were still added. Classes will still be added. They sell boxes. And balance is a journey, not a destination.

  17. #5977
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm down with it. More customization is always welcomed, and I love it when they add these kind of throwbacks to certain lore heroes, like giving the Mages the Verdant Spheres.

    I just hope they can do something to make these effects relevant in future expansions.
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?

  18. #5978
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Let's not forget that Mages got the Spheres only after Warlocks had them taken away.
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #5979
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    They've been saying this for the entire lifespan of the game. Classes were still added. Classes will still be added. They sell boxes. And balance is a journey, not a destination.
    Please note what I actually asked. I asked what PLAYERS WANT. Not what developers DO. You will also note that new classes have come on the even odd numbered major versions. 3 - DKs, 5 - Monks, 7 - Demon Hunters. 9 - None. They add classes if they can thematically put them. Wrath had Death Knights because of the Scourge. Mists had Monks because of the contact with Pandaria and the prevalence of them in the local culture. Legion had Demon Hunters because of the return of the Burning Legion and Illidan. The only thematic thing with 9 was the addition of more races available to Death Knights.

  20. #5980
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?
    Er, why?

    Rogues getting Glaives of Azzinoth and Warlocks geting Metamorphosis didn't scratch Demon Hunters off the list. These are effects are tied to a weapon. Weapons tend to last for maybe half an expansion, and get replaced pretty quickly by the time the next expansion arrives. These aren't even End Tier Legendary weapons, these are high-end drops for a mid-tier raid, like Druid of the Flame staff from Firelands that lets you turn into a flaming kitty. I loved that staff, but it got replaced way too quickly. Wasn't even useful by the time Deathwing raid arrived.

    I mean even if these were incorporated into actual spells in the Hunter, we might have more of a talking point. But seeing how Black Arrow and Metamorphosis were treated, I probably still wouldn't go as far as saying we have playable Dark Rangers.

    I do regard this as a much more elegant way to have Hunters be able to RP as a Dark Ranger though. If there's any way to implement Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire into the Hunter class, this is much better than just straight up shoe-horning it into the class where it doesn't really fit. As I see it, with these items it will help sate the demand for playable Dark Rangers for the duration of the expansion. I think Blizzard would have to do more to keep this relevant into the future, like with glyphs or talents to keep them in play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Please note what I actually asked. I asked what PLAYERS WANT.
    Then you should know the answer to that is yes, players do want more classes, and there is no hard or soft cap to that limit.

    It's like asking if players want more races in the game, or more abilities, or more anything. Of course the answer will be yes. People are still asking for the Dance Studio and Player Housing to this day. Players have zero accountability to be make 'reasonable' demands, and if we're simply asking if players as a whole want more Classes, then the obvious answer is yes, there are more people who want a class than people who argue things should stay as-is.

    The problems with asking for more is always whether it's feasible for Blizzard to manage, not in players actually lacking a demand for it. So in a way, you were asking the wrong question.

    At the end of the day, the decision to make new classes isn't going to be based on player demand, but on Blizzard's internal decision to create one or not. There's plenty of demand for new classes, and let's not go into the 'too many specs to balance!' issues since we all know the game will never be balanced, since it was never designed to be. WoW class balance has always shifted power between classes to keep people on their toes, and has never aimed to simply homogenize the format the way a game like Guild Wars 2 does.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-19 at 05:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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