1. #5921
    Non-existent. They have enough trouble getting 36 specs right. You want them to add 3-4 more?!?!

  2. #5922
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Non-existent. They have enough trouble getting [X] specs right. You want them to add 3-4 more?!?!
    They've been saying this for the entire lifespan of the game. Classes were still added. Classes will still be added. They sell boxes. And balance is a journey, not a destination.

  3. #5923
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm down with it. More customization is always welcomed, and I love it when they add these kind of throwbacks to certain lore heroes, like giving the Mages the Verdant Spheres.

    I just hope they can do something to make these effects relevant in future expansions.
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?

  4. #5924
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Let's not forget that Mages got the Spheres only after Warlocks had them taken away.
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.

  5. #5925
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    They've been saying this for the entire lifespan of the game. Classes were still added. Classes will still be added. They sell boxes. And balance is a journey, not a destination.
    Please note what I actually asked. I asked what PLAYERS WANT. Not what developers DO. You will also note that new classes have come on the even odd numbered major versions. 3 - DKs, 5 - Monks, 7 - Demon Hunters. 9 - None. They add classes if they can thematically put them. Wrath had Death Knights because of the Scourge. Mists had Monks because of the contact with Pandaria and the prevalence of them in the local culture. Legion had Demon Hunters because of the return of the Burning Legion and Illidan. The only thematic thing with 9 was the addition of more races available to Death Knights.

  6. #5926
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?
    Er, why?

    Rogues getting Glaives of Azzinoth and Warlocks geting Metamorphosis didn't scratch Demon Hunters off the list. These are effects are tied to a weapon. Weapons tend to last for maybe half an expansion, and get replaced pretty quickly by the time the next expansion arrives. These aren't even End Tier Legendary weapons, these are high-end drops for a mid-tier raid, like Druid of the Flame staff from Firelands that lets you turn into a flaming kitty. I loved that staff, but it got replaced way too quickly. Wasn't even useful by the time Deathwing raid arrived.

    I mean even if these were incorporated into actual spells in the Hunter, we might have more of a talking point. But seeing how Black Arrow and Metamorphosis were treated, I probably still wouldn't go as far as saying we have playable Dark Rangers.

    I do regard this as a much more elegant way to have Hunters be able to RP as a Dark Ranger though. If there's any way to implement Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire into the Hunter class, this is much better than just straight up shoe-horning it into the class where it doesn't really fit. As I see it, with these items it will help sate the demand for playable Dark Rangers for the duration of the expansion. I think Blizzard would have to do more to keep this relevant into the future, like with glyphs or talents to keep them in play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Please note what I actually asked. I asked what PLAYERS WANT.
    Then you should know the answer to that is yes, players do want more classes, and there is no hard or soft cap to that limit.

    It's like asking if players want more races in the game, or more abilities, or more anything. Of course the answer will be yes. People are still asking for the Dance Studio and Player Housing to this day. Players have zero accountability to be make 'reasonable' demands, and if we're simply asking if players as a whole want more Classes, then the obvious answer is yes, there are more people who want a class than people who argue things should stay as-is.

    The problems with asking for more is always whether it's feasible for Blizzard to manage, not in players actually lacking a demand for it. So in a way, you were asking the wrong question.

    At the end of the day, the decision to make new classes isn't going to be based on player demand, but on Blizzard's internal decision to create one or not. There's plenty of demand for new classes, and let's not go into the 'too many specs to balance!' issues since we all know the game will never be balanced, since it was never designed to be. WoW class balance has always shifted power between classes to keep people on their toes, and has never aimed to simply homogenize the format the way a game like Guild Wars 2 does.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-19 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #5927
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    They did wind up borrowing a lot of Kael's aesthetics for the Destruction class. Flame Strike, Banish, Drain Mana... all very Warlockish. But they gave Flame Strike to Mages and Phoenix remains in limbo. Conceptually, it has always fit more into the "Warlock" archetype in that Warlocks are just Mages that explore the taboo, which was what the entire Blood Elf culture was all about at the time.

  8. #5928
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then what major lore character could Blizzard "transform" into a Bard?
    Lorewalker Cho would be an excellent choice. Brann Bronzebeard would be an acceptable second choice.

    I mean, there wasn't even a TTRPG Bard class, and the TTRPG covered pretty much everything RPG-wise.
    Yeah. First, the TRPGs were not created by Blizzard. Second, WoW was not created inspired in the TRPGs.

    And that's a poor example, since the Runemaster never became a WoW class.
    That's not a poor example. It's a perfect example because, if "must have an already established lore hero" is a must-have prerequisite, then the runemaster would never even be considered a possible class choice, much less be one of the runner ups, beating "famous" and "popular" concepts that do have "lore heroes" such as the demon hunter and tinker.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #5929
    The people want what they want. No matter how invalid you or I perceive to be an option, no matter how many people agree with that stance... someone out there may, and probably does, want it regardless.

  10. #5930
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In case anyone is curious, Hunters get Sylvanas' quiver which gives them a chance to cast Withering Fire, and they get a Bow which changes Kill Shot into Wailing Arrow.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments
    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186414/...nas?bonus=6805

    So the good news is that if you want to be a Dark Ranger, you now have a way to do it in 9.1.
    And back in TBC, you could not only get Illidan's famous warglaives, but also his famous blindfold as a leather headpiece.

    In other words: hunters getting Sylvanas' quiver means absolutely nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?
    The answer is: nope. Dark rangers as a playable class are still valid and possible.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #5931
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    I guess they thought "oh it's green, so fel, let's give it to warlocks", when Kaelthas was never really a warlock in the classical sense and just did casual fel-sucking like all Bloodelves at the time. Also while they were corrupted, afaik it wasn't with fel, as it was tainted by whatever Kel'Tuzad left behind in the sunwell.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  12. #5932
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    Well, the Warcraft 3 blood mage hero unit (the one where the thing with verdant spheres began) is, lore-wise, said that their fire magic comes from demonic sources, so it technically makes sense to give it to the warlocks?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #5933
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    They did wind up borrowing a lot of Kael's aesthetics for the Destruction class. Flame Strike, Banish, Drain Mana... all very Warlockish. But they gave Flame Strike to Mages and Phoenix remains in limbo. Conceptually, it has always fit more into the "Warlock" archetype in that Warlocks are just Mages that explore the taboo, which was what the entire Blood Elf culture was all about at the time.
    I never saw Kael as fitting the Warlock theme though, even if the Warlock's Destruction spec was modelled closely after him.

    Kael didn't exactly use Fel Magic himself despite siphoning their power from demons to become a Blood Elf. He was always still considered a Mage archetype. I get that the Warlocks were built around that aesthetic, but it was always a disconnect for me since the whole theme of a Blood Mage is based on the phoenix symbolism, the death and rebirth of their kind. Warlocks are just focused on the death part of that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I guess they thought "oh it's green, so fel, let's give it to warlocks", when Kaelthas was never really a warlock in the classical sense and just did casual fel-sucking like all Bloodelves at the time. Also while they were corrupted, afaik it wasn't with fel, as it was tainted by whatever Kel'Tuzad left behind in the sunwell.
    This is how I see it.

    Knowing that the Warlock class was still designed by Xelnath at this point, and he was the sole mad genius behind the Warlock's getting _everything cool_ despite it not totally fitting their identity, I can see how the Verdant Spheres ended up getting there.

  14. #5934
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I never saw Kael as fitting the Warlock theme though, even if the Warlock's Destruction spec was modelled closely after him.

    Kael didn't exactly use Fel Magic himself despite siphoning their power from demons to become a Blood Elf. He was always still considered a Mage archetype. I get that the Warlocks were built around that aesthetic, but it was always a disconnect for me since the whole theme of a Blood Mage is based on the phoenix symbolism, the death and rebirth of their kind. Warlocks are just focused on the death part of that.
    Warlocks themselves are Mage archetypes. In the playable Warlock's case, they're just Mages with a little demonic spice sprinkled on... which is precisely what Kael'thas and literally all Blood Elf Mages were for awhile. But yeah, again, the playable Warlock's myopic focus on the demonic aspect of their class fantasy does detract from that fantasy, given that they should be exploring powers beyond demons, particularly after the Legion's defeat.

  15. #5935
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Lorewalker Cho would be an excellent choice. Brann Bronzebeard would be an acceptable second choice.
    But where are Cho and Bronzebeard's Bardic abilities? Chen had Brewmaster abilities which were brought into the Monk class, where are such abilities for Cho and Brann?


    Yeah. First, the TRPGs were not created by Blizzard. Second, WoW was not created inspired in the TRPGs.
    Yet the TTRPG had DKs, DHs, and Brewmasters/Monks....


    That's not a poor example. It's a perfect example because, if "must have an already established lore hero" is a must-have prerequisite, then the runemaster would never even be considered a possible class choice, much less be one of the runner ups, beating "famous" and "popular" concepts that do have "lore heroes" such as the demon hunter and tinker.
    If someone says that every WoW expansion class has had a hero attached to it, using a class concept that was never made into a class as a counter example doesn't really work.

  16. #5936
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, the Warcraft 3 blood mage hero unit (the one where the thing with verdant spheres began) is, lore-wise, said that their fire magic comes from demonic sources, so it technically makes sense to give it to the warlocks?
    Their fire magic did not come from demonic sources.

    They siphon energy from demons, but back then this was implied that it was simply converted into Mana (as there was no specific Fel/Arcane magic division back then). Demons just happened to be a magical source of energy, like an elemental creature. It's kinda like how the TBC intro showed that Elf turning that mana wyrm into a little pool of mana/arcane energy.

    However the fire magic they cast is still purely arcane magic. One thing to note - Blood Elf eyes were not green in Warcraft 3. This was a TBC retcon, and even then it doesn't imply that the magic they use is Fel just because their eyes turned green. All of their racials were still Arcane based, and so are Kael's abilities in TBC.

  17. #5937
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And back in TBC, you could not only get Illidan's famous warglaives, but also his famous blindfold as a leather headpiece.

    In other words: hunters getting Sylvanas' quiver means absolutely nothing.
    The difference being that only Hunters can equip the bow and the quiver and use Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire.....

  18. #5938
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    This is how I see it.

    Knowing that the Warlock class was still designed by Xelnath at this point, and he was the sole mad genius behind the Warlock's getting _everything cool_ despite it not totally fitting their identity, I can see how the Verdant Spheres ended up getting there.
    Looking at the way warlocks started out in vanilla the whole fire theme wasn't particularily strong to begin with. I mean even in TBC when they finally got a fire nuke it was rarely actually used and most people just sacrificed their pet and spammed shadowbolt. Kael was certainly never summoning voidwalkers and imps.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  19. #5939
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Warlocks themselves are Mage archetypes. In the playable Warlock's case, they're just Mages with a little demonic spice sprinkled on... which is precisely what Kael'thas and literally all Blood Elf Mages were for awhile. But yeah, again, the playable Warlock's myopic focus on the demonic aspect of their class fantasy does detract from that fantasy, given that they should be exploring powers beyond demons, particularly after the Legion's defeat.
    I totally get that, but to me it'd be like the disconnect between Balance Druid and Priestess of the Moon concepts. The Balance Druid is modelled with POTM elements in mind like use of Moon magic and Starfall, but not enough to use a bunch of owl-based abilities or turning full blown night warrior.

  20. #5940
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you should know the answer to that is yes, players do want more classes, and there is no hard or soft cap to that limit.
    Go look at the {{ currentClassSpecPlayersAreBitchingAbout }} forums and see if your answer really is yes. I see more people wanting to developers to focus on the already too many specs in the game. Sure that complaining comes with every expansion and patch, but ever since Legion it has been A LOT louder.

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