1. #5981
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    They did wind up borrowing a lot of Kael's aesthetics for the Destruction class. Flame Strike, Banish, Drain Mana... all very Warlockish. But they gave Flame Strike to Mages and Phoenix remains in limbo. Conceptually, it has always fit more into the "Warlock" archetype in that Warlocks are just Mages that explore the taboo, which was what the entire Blood Elf culture was all about at the time.

  2. #5982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then what major lore character could Blizzard "transform" into a Bard?
    Lorewalker Cho would be an excellent choice. Brann Bronzebeard would be an acceptable second choice.

    I mean, there wasn't even a TTRPG Bard class, and the TTRPG covered pretty much everything RPG-wise.
    Yeah. First, the TRPGs were not created by Blizzard. Second, WoW was not created inspired in the TRPGs.

    And that's a poor example, since the Runemaster never became a WoW class.
    That's not a poor example. It's a perfect example because, if "must have an already established lore hero" is a must-have prerequisite, then the runemaster would never even be considered a possible class choice, much less be one of the runner ups, beating "famous" and "popular" concepts that do have "lore heroes" such as the demon hunter and tinker.
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  3. #5983
    The people want what they want. No matter how invalid you or I perceive to be an option, no matter how many people agree with that stance... someone out there may, and probably does, want it regardless.

  4. #5984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In case anyone is curious, Hunters get Sylvanas' quiver which gives them a chance to cast Withering Fire, and they get a Bow which changes Kill Shot into Wailing Arrow.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments
    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186414/...nas?bonus=6805

    So the good news is that if you want to be a Dark Ranger, you now have a way to do it in 9.1.
    And back in TBC, you could not only get Illidan's famous warglaives, but also his famous blindfold as a leather headpiece.

    In other words: hunters getting Sylvanas' quiver means absolutely nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The burning question though is can we now scratch Dark Rangers off the list as a potential future class?
    The answer is: nope. Dark rangers as a playable class are still valid and possible.
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  5. #5985
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    I guess they thought "oh it's green, so fel, let's give it to warlocks", when Kaelthas was never really a warlock in the classical sense and just did casual fel-sucking like all Bloodelves at the time. Also while they were corrupted, afaik it wasn't with fel, as it was tainted by whatever Kel'Tuzad left behind in the sunwell.
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  6. #5986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Glyph of Verdant Spheres always looked odd to me since they were so static. Not sure why they gave it to the Warlock either, Mage always fit the Blood Mage theme better.
    Well, the Warcraft 3 blood mage hero unit (the one where the thing with verdant spheres began) is, lore-wise, said that their fire magic comes from demonic sources, so it technically makes sense to give it to the warlocks?
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  7. #5987
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    They did wind up borrowing a lot of Kael's aesthetics for the Destruction class. Flame Strike, Banish, Drain Mana... all very Warlockish. But they gave Flame Strike to Mages and Phoenix remains in limbo. Conceptually, it has always fit more into the "Warlock" archetype in that Warlocks are just Mages that explore the taboo, which was what the entire Blood Elf culture was all about at the time.
    I never saw Kael as fitting the Warlock theme though, even if the Warlock's Destruction spec was modelled closely after him.

    Kael didn't exactly use Fel Magic himself despite siphoning their power from demons to become a Blood Elf. He was always still considered a Mage archetype. I get that the Warlocks were built around that aesthetic, but it was always a disconnect for me since the whole theme of a Blood Mage is based on the phoenix symbolism, the death and rebirth of their kind. Warlocks are just focused on the death part of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I guess they thought "oh it's green, so fel, let's give it to warlocks", when Kaelthas was never really a warlock in the classical sense and just did casual fel-sucking like all Bloodelves at the time. Also while they were corrupted, afaik it wasn't with fel, as it was tainted by whatever Kel'Tuzad left behind in the sunwell.
    This is how I see it.

    Knowing that the Warlock class was still designed by Xelnath at this point, and he was the sole mad genius behind the Warlock's getting _everything cool_ despite it not totally fitting their identity, I can see how the Verdant Spheres ended up getting there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #5988
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I never saw Kael as fitting the Warlock theme though, even if the Warlock's Destruction spec was modelled closely after him.

    Kael didn't exactly use Fel Magic himself despite siphoning their power from demons to become a Blood Elf. He was always still considered a Mage archetype. I get that the Warlocks were built around that aesthetic, but it was always a disconnect for me since the whole theme of a Blood Mage is based on the phoenix symbolism, the death and rebirth of their kind. Warlocks are just focused on the death part of that.
    Warlocks themselves are Mage archetypes. In the playable Warlock's case, they're just Mages with a little demonic spice sprinkled on... which is precisely what Kael'thas and literally all Blood Elf Mages were for awhile. But yeah, again, the playable Warlock's myopic focus on the demonic aspect of their class fantasy does detract from that fantasy, given that they should be exploring powers beyond demons, particularly after the Legion's defeat.

  9. #5989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Lorewalker Cho would be an excellent choice. Brann Bronzebeard would be an acceptable second choice.
    But where are Cho and Bronzebeard's Bardic abilities? Chen had Brewmaster abilities which were brought into the Monk class, where are such abilities for Cho and Brann?


    Yeah. First, the TRPGs were not created by Blizzard. Second, WoW was not created inspired in the TRPGs.
    Yet the TTRPG had DKs, DHs, and Brewmasters/Monks....


    That's not a poor example. It's a perfect example because, if "must have an already established lore hero" is a must-have prerequisite, then the runemaster would never even be considered a possible class choice, much less be one of the runner ups, beating "famous" and "popular" concepts that do have "lore heroes" such as the demon hunter and tinker.
    If someone says that every WoW expansion class has had a hero attached to it, using a class concept that was never made into a class as a counter example doesn't really work.

  10. #5990
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, the Warcraft 3 blood mage hero unit (the one where the thing with verdant spheres began) is, lore-wise, said that their fire magic comes from demonic sources, so it technically makes sense to give it to the warlocks?
    Their fire magic did not come from demonic sources.

    They siphon energy from demons, but back then this was implied that it was simply converted into Mana (as there was no specific Fel/Arcane magic division back then). Demons just happened to be a magical source of energy, like an elemental creature. It's kinda like how the TBC intro showed that Elf turning that mana wyrm into a little pool of mana/arcane energy.

    However the fire magic they cast is still purely arcane magic. One thing to note - Blood Elf eyes were not green in Warcraft 3. This was a TBC retcon, and even then it doesn't imply that the magic they use is Fel just because their eyes turned green. All of their racials were still Arcane based, and so are Kael's abilities in TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #5991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And back in TBC, you could not only get Illidan's famous warglaives, but also his famous blindfold as a leather headpiece.

    In other words: hunters getting Sylvanas' quiver means absolutely nothing.
    The difference being that only Hunters can equip the bow and the quiver and use Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire.....
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-04-19 at 05:51 PM.

  12. #5992
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    This is how I see it.

    Knowing that the Warlock class was still designed by Xelnath at this point, and he was the sole mad genius behind the Warlock's getting _everything cool_ despite it not totally fitting their identity, I can see how the Verdant Spheres ended up getting there.
    Looking at the way warlocks started out in vanilla the whole fire theme wasn't particularily strong to begin with. I mean even in TBC when they finally got a fire nuke it was rarely actually used and most people just sacrificed their pet and spammed shadowbolt. Kael was certainly never summoning voidwalkers and imps.
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  13. #5993
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Warlocks themselves are Mage archetypes. In the playable Warlock's case, they're just Mages with a little demonic spice sprinkled on... which is precisely what Kael'thas and literally all Blood Elf Mages were for awhile. But yeah, again, the playable Warlock's myopic focus on the demonic aspect of their class fantasy does detract from that fantasy, given that they should be exploring powers beyond demons, particularly after the Legion's defeat.
    I totally get that, but to me it'd be like the disconnect between Balance Druid and Priestess of the Moon concepts. The Balance Druid is modelled with POTM elements in mind like use of Moon magic and Starfall, but not enough to use a bunch of owl-based abilities or turning full blown night warrior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #5994
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you should know the answer to that is yes, players do want more classes, and there is no hard or soft cap to that limit.
    Go look at the {{ currentClassSpecPlayersAreBitchingAbout }} forums and see if your answer really is yes. I see more people wanting to developers to focus on the already too many specs in the game. Sure that complaining comes with every expansion and patch, but ever since Legion it has been A LOT louder.

  15. #5995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But where are Cho and Bronzebeard's Bardic abilities? where are such abilities for Cho and Brann?
    Classes are not defined by abilities. They're defined by their concepts. Blizzard does not define their classes by specific abilities, so why do you insist otherwise?

    Yet the TTRPG had DKs, DHs, and Brewmasters/Monks....
    Repeating and emphasizing what you ignored:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah. First, the TRPGs were not created by Blizzard. Second, WoW was not created inspired in the TRPGs.
    Both are instead inspired in the Warcraft franchise, but they are not related. And by the way, the TTRPG also has the necromancer and the death knight as separate classes. Food for thought.

    If someone says that every WoW expansion class has had a hero attached to it, using a class concept that was never made into a class as a counter example doesn't really work.
    Again, it works perfectly. Because, again I'll repeat because you ignored it, the runemaster was one of the three runner-ups for expansion class, meaning it beat other popular concepts like demon hunter and tinker.

    It reinforces the idea that your claim is just coincidence, especially when you consider that Blizzard took a non-monk hero and converted into a monk for the class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Their fire magic did not come from demonic sources.

    They siphon energy from demons, but back then this was implied that it was simply converted into Mana (as there was no specific Fel/Arcane magic division back then). Demons just happened to be a magical source of energy, like an elemental creature. It's kinda like how the TBC intro showed that Elf turning that mana wyrm into a little pool of mana/arcane energy.

    However the fire magic they cast is still purely arcane magic. One thing to note - Blood Elf eyes were not green in Warcraft 3. This was a TBC retcon, and even then it doesn't imply that the magic they use is Fel just because their eyes turned green. All of their racials were still Arcane based, and so are Kael's abilities in TBC.
    I'm not talking about the TBC blood elves. I'm talking about the blood mage unit from Warcraft 3.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The difference being that only Hunters can equip the bow and the quiver and use Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire.....
    And any class that can wield a bow (rogue and warrior) can also get equip the quiver AND the bow. Notice the lack of "class: hunter" requirements, so saying "only hunters can equip it" is a lie.

    Also, rogues could use Evasion which was a demon hunter ability.
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  16. #5996
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Go look at the {{ currentClassSpecPlayersAreBitchingAbout }} forums and see if your answer really is yes. I see more people wanting to developers to focus on the already too many specs in the game. Sure that complaining comes with every expansion and patch, but ever since Legion it has been A LOT louder.
    Yes, and the vast majority of people who want a new class wouldn't be coming to forums to bitch about the lack of new classes.

    Forums are always going to be the echochamber of the discontent, not the wishful thinkers who wouldn't mind seeing something new and cool.

    Demand does not always appear in the form of criticism on the forums. I mean, how much demand do you see here for a Dragonsworn? Practically zero since it's almost never talked about, and rarely lasts discussion in this forums. Yet on reddit, a simple Dragonsworn post got 8.3k upvotes showing support for the concept. You'd never see that amount of participation here. New Class polls tend to have less than 500 participants on average.

    Also, just complaining about having too many specs in the game doesn't actually negate the demand for new/more classes, any more than people saying there's too many cars on the road doesn't negate the demand for new cars. Pretty sure car companies aren't gonna stop future operations just because of the people who think there's too many cars on the road.

    Blizzard's business and the marketting and sales of WoW depends on presenting new and big features for the game. Classes are going to be a part of that conversation. Whether we get new classes in the future depends on whether Blizzard sees marketable value in pursuing. Based on their interviews for Shadowlands and why they didn't add a new class, it seems that a new class is still on the table. They said no class happened to (in their response) fit the story and setting of Shadowlands as well as Demon Hunters did for Legion. So we have a rough indication that we could get a new class if it fits the particular story and setting they want to tell in the future.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-19 at 06:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #5997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Classes are not defined by abilities. They're defined by their concepts. Blizzard does not define their classes by specific abilities, so why do you insist otherwise?
    Classes are absolutely defined by their abilities. Hence why people are currently writing off the Dark Ranger class because Hunters got their abilities, or how Demon Hunter didn't enter the game until Warlocks lost metamorphosis. Chen, Arthas, and Illidan all had unique abilities that they had BEFORE the debut of their respective classes. Why can't we do the same for the Bard concept?


    Repeating and emphasizing what you ignored:

    Both are instead inspired in the Warcraft franchise, but they are not related. And by the way, the TTRPG also has the necromancer and the death knight as separate classes. Food for thought.
    All of which is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we have a history of no substantial Bard concept anywhere in Warcraft. The lack of Bard characters and the lack of Bard lore even in noncanonical sources is quite telling.


    Again, it works perfectly. Because, again I'll repeat because you ignored it, the runemaster was one of the three runner-ups for expansion class, meaning it beat other popular concepts like demon hunter and tinker.

    It reinforces the idea that your claim is just coincidence, especially when you consider that Blizzard took a non-monk hero and converted into a monk for the class.
    And irrelevant once again. The Runemaster was never an actual WoW class, thus what it had and doesn't have means nothing. The only examples that matter are the ACTUAL expansion classes, and they ALL had hero characters with unique abilities that were translated into their eventual classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Classes are not defined by abilities. They're defined by their concepts. [URL="https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/classes"]Blizzard does not define their classes
    And any class that can wield a bow (rogue and warrior) can also get equip the quiver AND the bow. Notice the lack of "class: hunter" requirements, so saying "only hunters can equip it" is a lie.
    They can equip the bow and the quiver, but they won't get the Dark Ranger abilities. Only Hunters get those.

    That says quite a lot.

  18. #5998
    I mean, I don't see how there can be a debate, it should be a caster/support class of some sort. the game has enough melee classes.

  19. #5999
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    I mean, I don't see how there can be a debate, it should be a caster/support class of some sort. the game has enough melee classes.
    What about physical ranged?

  20. #6000
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What about physical ranged?
    well I would assume the class has a DPS spec along with a healing spec.

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