1. #6041
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    While I agree it's unlikely, there are several references to bards in the game (including a literal Bard-named character in the Rogue class hall), Kodos with drums were a thing, drums themselves are a thing, etc.

    THAT. BEING. SAID.

    Plenty of other games do bards without being fully-support based; obvious example is FF14, with its bard not focusing on songs like its FF11 counterpart. While bard is a support in Rift, support in general there wasn't the typical support in other games.

    With all the support-esque abilities they are putting into Priest (Cooldown reductions, power infusion back, fae guardians as a whole), it seems they are becoming more keen on different styles of support, so a semi-lower DPS class with some support isn't too far stretched these days.

    But nobody/everybody would take a support class that does damage+brings support
    FF14 doesn't have this problem.


    According to that video, the Bard is the epic support guy, and it would appear that its offensive abilities come from Archers. Reminds me quite a bit of Ragnarok Online where the Bard and later Minstrel classes had arrow-based abilities from the archer class, and support abilities from their secondary jobs.

    In any case, without a hero character to pull abilities from, this discussion is pointless. We simply have no determined direction for this concept, whereas we had a determined direction with DKs, Monks, and Demon Hunters even before they became actual classes.

  2. #6042
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    According to that video, the Bard is the epic support guy, and it would appear that its offensive abilities come from Archers. Reminds me quite a bit of Ragnarok Online where the Bard and later Minstrel classes had arrow-based abilities from the archer class, and support abilities from their secondary jobs.
    Kinda. It is sorta like that from RO. But the bard is a ranged-DD first, of which there are 3 -- the other being dancer, who is now the better support. The buffs they bring arent huge either way. It's just kinda a "oh you do your thing and your group gets 3% crit"; they have some small like +20% healing for a single character on a cooldown and a -10% dmg (aoe) on a cooldown shared by the other 2 ranged classes (dnc/machinist).

    Yet, 3% crit, 1% damage and 3% direct hit and a cooldown -10% damage made the class the "epic support guy." I'm sure wow could find a way to fit in a buffer.

    Heck, we had "Bards" made out of Barbs in Diablo 2. let's just do that. Make a "Warhorn" or something spec for Warrior that focuses on shouts lol

  3. #6043
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Kinda. It is sorta like that from RO. But the bard is a ranged-DD first, of which there are 3 -- the other being dancer, who is now the better support. The buffs they bring arent huge either way. It's just kinda a "oh you do your thing and your group gets 3% crit"; they have some small like +20% healing for a single character on a cooldown and a -10% dmg (aoe) on a cooldown shared by the other 2 ranged classes (dnc/machinist).

    Yet, 3% crit, 1% damage and 3% direct hit and a cooldown -10% damage made the class the "epic support guy." I'm sure wow could find a way to fit in a buffer.

    Heck, we had "Bards" made out of Barbs in Diablo 2. let's just do that. Make a "Warhorn" or something spec for Warrior that focuses on shouts lol
    Well we do sort of have that via the Warrior class. They have quite a few voice-based abilities that buff or deal damage, so there's that.

  4. #6044
    like is like zero lore to support a Bard class for WoW.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  5. #6045
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    like is like zero lore to support a Bard class for WoW.
    Exactly. Which is why constructing an expansion that supports such a class is next to impossible.

  6. #6046
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Plenty of other games do bards without being fully-support based; obvious example is FF14, with its bard not focusing on songs like its FF11 counterpart.

    [...]

    But nobody/everybody would take a support class that does damage+brings support
    FF14 doesn't have this problem.
    That is not quite the case. Bards in FFXIV have undergone various changes. Before the current expansion Bards used to be way more focused on music, their whole storylines are focused on it as well. Only in SBr did they gut most of the support aspect in favor of focusing more on the archer aspect and being a proper DPS (FFXIV also only has a trinity system wise, not a designated supporter role that is enfoced like tank and healer). It's pretty much their hunter class now, sans the pet aspect (thankfully).
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  7. #6047
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, Bard is highly unlikely.
    The bard is "as likely" as any other fan class concept. Because we don't know what are the requirements for a class concept to be more 'viable' or more 'likely' than the others.

    Blizzard made it rather clear that any new class has to match the theme of its expansion. Good luck coming up with a viable expansion themed around Bards,
    False. That is a false equivalence. Expansions are not themed around the classes they introduce. Instead, the class introduces matches the general theme of the expansion.

    especially when there's no viable Bard hero in WoW, and there's no history of a Bard class in the entire franchise.
    And that is one hundred percent irrelevant as not only you have failed, time and again, to demonstrate it to be an actual thing. Worse: the fact the runemaster, a concept "without viable hero in WoW", still made it to the last three best picks for Wrath's expansion class, beating other contestants who have 'viable heroes' such as the demon hunter and tinker.

    Secondly WoW doesn't support the Bard's playstyle.
    Bards don't have to be "pure support". You have been told and demonstrated this so many times one can only think it's willing dishonesty of you to continue to repeat this falsehood. Bards easily fit the "tank-healer-dps" class mold of the game.

    Despite arguments to the contrary, there's zero reason to bring a Bard class into the game that's just a typical spellcaster, since without its support angle,
    Despite arguments to the contrary, there's zero reason not to bring a bard class into the game.

    there's nothing special or unique about music-based magic.
    By that logic, there is nothing special or unique about technology. A rocket is nothing more than a reskinned fireball.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    like is like zero lore to support a Bard class for WoW.
    When you ignore all the lore regarding bards and what bards can do in WoW, it's easy to say "there's zero lore."
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  8. #6048
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Exactly. Which is why constructing an expansion that supports such a class is next to impossible.
    they would need to have like 2-3 expansions to build up any lore for them.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  9. #6049
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The bard is "as likely" as any other fan class concept. Because we don't know what are the requirements for a class concept to be more 'viable' or more 'likely' than the others.
    We know what the requirements are, and the Bard does not measure up to those requirements.

    By that logic, there is nothing special or unique about technology. A rocket is nothing more than a reskinned fireball.
    And here you go bringing up the Tinker for no reason other than to derail the current topic.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-04-20 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #6050
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    they would need to have like 2-3 expansions to build up any lore for them.
    Oh come on, they almost literally put their tumbs in their mouth and started blowing and out came a whole expansion of kung fu pandas. Someone lit a match near a fart and suddenly we have an expansion about the afterlife of wow that explains the whole franchise. They don't even need a single expansion to explore a class, that is done in a little zone, like DH or DK. Other games get away with 2 lines of flavor text on their website.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2021-04-20 at 03:33 PM.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  11. #6051
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Il take it. I mean I realy like this.

    I realy like your idea of sira as a warden and not the night elf warden. I feel like 2 dps and 1 tank would be bit more suitable imo. I dont see a healing spec being very fitting here and would like the dk idea of 2 dps and 1 tank spec.
    I mean, Sira is a Night Elf Warden and in the boss fight, she utilized the traditional warden abilities while Maievs avatar of vengeance was fire themed. But in Darkshore and the novel, she was also thematically close to the raised Night Elf Dark Rangers, who would make the class available to the alliance. And Blizz mixing in other classes into a hero class isn't anything new, they did so with the Lich and Runemaster who were incorperated into the Death Knight. So Dark Warden would make sense for an additional Dark Ranger spec, especially as a Tank. It offers also quite some ideas for gameplay mechanics, where you reflect damage and maybe Avatar of Vengeance deals damage depending on the dmg you received shortly before using it.

    And with Nathanos and Sylvanas, we also have two characters we can easily base the dps specs on. Nathanos would focus on blight dmg, probably dots and summoning undead pets while Sylvanas would focus on shadow-based death magic and where you could incorperate the old metamorphosis gameplay/voidform gameplay into the banshee form. Turning the Dark Warden into the Tank-Spec of the dark ranger class also offers the added benefit of having a greater diversity of set-designs to draw inspirations from once class sets return and having the Warden concept playable.

  12. #6052
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Oh come on, they literally put their tumbs in their mouth and started blowing and out came a whole expansion of kung fu pandas. Someone lit a match near a fart and suddenly we have an expansion about the afterlife of wow that suddenly explains the whole franchise. They don't even need a single expansion to explore a class, that is done in a little zone, like DH or DK. Other games get away with 2 lines of flavor text on their website.
    The lore behind Pandaria was seeded almost a decade before the release of MoP. The lore of the Shadowlands is pretty old too. Neither are new concepts to the Warcraft franchise.

  13. #6053
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    While I agree it's unlikely, there are several references to bards in the game (including a literal Bard-named character in the Rogue class hall), Kodos with drums were a thing, drums themselves are a thing, etc.

    THAT. BEING. SAID.

    Plenty of other games do bards without being fully-support based; obvious example is FF14, with its bard not focusing on songs like its FF11 counterpart. While bard is a support in Rift, support in general there wasn't the typical support in other games.

    With all the support-esque abilities they are putting into Priest (Cooldown reductions, power infusion back, fae guardians as a whole), it seems they are becoming more keen on different styles of support, so a semi-lower DPS class with some support isn't too far stretched these days.

    But nobody/everybody would take a support class that does damage+brings support
    FF14 doesn't have this problem.
    The problem is that WoW had this, and they obliterated all instances to enforce a strict "Trinity" system. They're "bring the player, not the class" moto was from that time.
    If you make a class that offers something that no other class can, then it becomes mandatory.
    So you either make that something redundant (bloodlust/time warp), or you delete it (like they did with the druid and pala raid buffs).
    Then you find you also have to kill hybrids because if they dont offer buffs, or another class offers it, then you can't balance the utility with poor dps, because "why bring more than one of those, if the buff is already covered?". Hybrids erased.

    To bring a hybrid class like the bard, you need to change the current class design philosophy entirely.

    With this, I'm not saying they should not add the class, but that in the current design I find it hard to fit.

  14. #6054
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We know what the requirements are, and the Bard does not measure up to those requirements.
    We don't. And anyone who asserts otherwise, to the point of going against established evidence, is being willingly ignorant, and outright dishonest.

    And here you go bringing up the Tinker for no reason other than to derail the current topic.
    It's not a derailing. It's a viable comparison. By that same token, there's nothing special about shadow magic: it's just fire magic with a dark purple color. And that goes for everything in this game: "there's nothing special about anything, it's just this other thing with a different color/animation/sound effect."
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  15. #6055
    I still think Bard would be best added through professions. Professions in general could use a revamp and made to add more combat-viable utility and 'Profession flavour' to the game.

    We're seeing the inclusion of a Bow and Quiver that grants Dark Ranger effects, it opens up the possibility of crafting items and item enhancements that add the same properties.

    Leatherworking patches could be imbued with a special properties like Glyphs, where it's opened up to a variety of Class-specific abilities. Engineering could open up Class-specific augment options for gloves, boots, belt and back pieces. Having these tied to professions and have them affect your Class ability like Glyphs would make it more feasible to maintain different RP identities, on top of the Transmog systems we already have. It'd be a better way to incorporate Musical and Engineer themes straight into the classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #6056
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    We don't.
    Yes we do, and it's exactly the reason why so many people view the Bard as not fitting in WoW.

    It's not a derailing. It's a viable comparison. By that same token, there's nothing special about shadow magic: it's just fire magic with a dark purple color. And that goes for everything in this game: "there's nothing special about anything, it's just this other thing with a different color/animation/sound effect."
    Mechanicals have their own properties (strengths and weaknesses) like Beasts, demons, and other families. So yeah that makes them special.

  17. #6057
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    To bring a hybrid class like the bard, you need to change the current class design philosophy entirely.

    With this, I'm not saying they should not add the class, but that in the current design I find it hard to fit.
    There is plenty of unique utility and buffs still around. Healthstones, Gateways, INT/STR/AGI/STA buffs, phys./mag debuff, Shroud, etc.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  18. #6058
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes we do,
    We do? Okay. Show me the link to the interview or twitter thread where Blizzard developers expressly and unambiguously list all the requirements needed for a class concept to be viable.

    Spoiler alert: you won't. Because there is no such thing. All you have are your personal opinions which you love to state as fact. No only that, but what little Blizzard has spoken about it directly opposes your claims. Case in point: the runemaster concept back in Wrath.

    And to make matters worse for you, you literally dismiss what Blizzard had said because it goes against your narrative.

    and it's exactly the reason why so many people view the Bard as not fitting in WoW.
    Personal opinions are not facts. The collective of "anecdote" is not "data".

    Mechanicals have their own properties (strengths and weaknesses) like Beasts, demons, and other families. So yeah that makes them special.
    Which are highly unlikely to ever come into play because of balance. Since none of the classes today have anything in their toolkits that is effective against mechanicals (and mechanicals have absolutely no weaknesses), by reason of balance, its strengths are unlikely to be implemented as a player class feature.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  19. #6059
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Oh come on, they almost literally put their tumbs in their mouth and started blowing and out came a whole expansion of kung fu pandas. Someone lit a match near a fart and suddenly we have an expansion about the afterlife of wow that explains the whole franchise. They don't even need a single expansion to explore a class, that is done in a little zone, like DH or DK. Other games get away with 2 lines of flavor text on their website.
    you clearly forgot that Pandaria hints have existed since WC3.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  20. #6060
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    We do? Okay. Show me the link to the interview or twitter thread where Blizzard developers expressly and unambiguously list all the requirements needed for a class concept to be viable.
    Why do we need Blizzard to officially state the obvious?

    Which are highly unlikely to ever come into play because of balance. Since none of the classes today have anything in their toolkits that is effective against mechanicals (and mechanicals have absolutely no weaknesses), by reason of balance, its strengths are unlikely to be implemented as a player class feature.
    Demons can be Banished, can take additional damage via certain attacks (demon slaying), cannot be skinned, cannot be polymorphed, can be enslaved by Warlocks, etc.

    Beasts can be skinned, hibernated by Druids, take more damage from certain attacks (beast slaying), can be feared via Scare Beast, can be polymorphed, etc.

    You're saying that Mechanicals won't get similar treatment because..... ?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-04-20 at 06:02 PM.

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