1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Would this make you feel better?



    It's from 2006, before WotLK was announced.
    Lets role-play a "Teriz" who love to grasp a straw:

    All i see on that picture is winter location, man in LK armor pulls sword out of rock or ice , in what kind of spot that pictures shows his powers over ICE?

    If i gonna took a selfie near ICE cube it would translate that i have some ice powers too? maybe he moved to cold climate location so his army would stop rotting, who knows.

    Show me him using Ice powers, or i not gonna accept it.

    As Teriz used same amount of straw :
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What if the professor isn't teaching the Necromancers alchemy?
    LoL he is teaching them about gnome sex life? or what?
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2020-11-25 at 06:01 AM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac Necromancer,RuneMaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Dragonsworn,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker

  2. #582
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Lets role-play a "Teriz" who love to grasp a straw:

    All i see on that picture is winter location, man in LK armor pulls sword out of rock or ice , in what kind of spot that pictures shows his powers over ICE?

    If i gonna took a selfie near ICE cube it would translate that i have some ice powers too? maybe he moved to cold climate location so his army would stop rotting, who knows.

    Show me him using Ice powers, or i not gonna accept it.
    So you can’t tell he has Frost powers from his weapon emanating obvious cold/Frost magic?

    As Teriz used same amount of straw :

    LoL he is teaching them about gnome sex life? or what?
    According to his ability list, he has Acid, Fire, and strength potions, no poison.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Based on what abilities?
    The ability to use magic, as Rangers do.

    Hunters do not.

    Need an example of Rangers who use magic? Lorthemar and Halduron are both Rangers, and both use magic abilities. Lore-wise, they are not Hunters, not Paladins, not Mages. They are Farstriders, they are Rangers. There is no playable class equivalent of what they are, just as there is no official Priestess of the Moon.

    Based on what I saw from the Nathanos cinematic, Tyrande's Night Warrior would be better served as a DH 3rd spec.
    She seems to be able to do both melee and shoot arrows in her fight with Nathanos. If she went blind and grew horns, I could see the transition to DH.

    What exactly is a "Ranger" in your view? Feel free to use traditional RPG tropes to make your case.
    Magic user that chooses to use Bows as their weapon of choice. They excel in archery and use it to support their spellcasting.

    So let me get this straight... You actually believe that Blizzard wants to bring in the Dark Ranger class, but couldn't bring them into the game because they didn't fit the theme of an expansion where the main character is the archetypal Dark Ranger hero, and involves the concept of death and the afterlife?
    Where did I say I believe Blizzard wants to do anything?

    No, you are projecting. I have been clear about my beliefs, I don't think Blizzard would even pursue new classes in the future. They absolutely could, but the devs haven't proven to me they are capable really. On top of this a long term class designer left the company recently, so my beliefs on the state of class design isn't very high. Class skins are the likely future of Classes.

    Again, please tell me how Monks, DKs, and Demon Hunters fit in the stories of their expansions. The expansion doesn't revolve around the new classes, they revolve around the archetypal heroes of that new class. You know, sort of how Shadowlands revolves around whatever Sylvanas, a Dark Ranger is currently doing.
    They don't revolve around the new classes, but each of the classes fit the expansions and have reason to fight.

    The Dark Rangers have lost everything and are in a prrtty poor state of affairs, having just been abandoned by their leader. Where do they fit in the story? They don't. I can't even think how you'd introduce them in a questline. Even Nathanos gets killed off, they're practically leaderless now.

    Because they have no plan to ever release a Necromancer or Dark Ranger class.
    They don't have plans to ever release ANY class. When was the last time the ever openly stated what classes they are considering and working on? They've only ever denied possibilities, like saying they aren't working on Demon Hunters or saying Tinkers are too whimsical. Not once have I heard them say 'yeah we want Tinkers playable' or 'We'd love to have Dark Rangers'.

    We can effectively deny all future classes if we base everything on their plans.

    Did you miss the part where Blizzard explicitly said that Necromancer was folded into the DK class, and that the Death Knight IS the death class of WoW?
    You mean the same way the Warlock is the Fel class that folded in Demon Hunter abilities and all its themes, putting the proverbial nail in the coffin for Demon Hunters?

    Is this explicitly what you are talking about?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-11-25 at 08:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, but here's the difference, in the case of the expansion classes (DKs, Monks, DHs) Blizzard made it quite clear that there were multiples of that class. There were DKs who were not Arthas who could use Necromancy. There were Demon Hunters who were not Illidan who could use metamorphosis. There were Monks who were not Chen Stormstout who had martial arts abilities.

    There are no Dark Rangers besides Sylvanas who have Banshee powers. Why? Because Sylvanas has a unique origin which gave her those Banshee powers, and Dark Rangers she has create since do NOT have Banshee powers. To further drive this point home, Dark Rangers appeared in the Hunter class hall, indicating that they were in fact a variety of Hunter.



    If someone wants to play as a Blademaster, why aren't they simply playing an Arms Warrior with Bladestorm? Yes, you're missing Windwalk and Mirror Image, but you have everything else that makes a Blademaster what it is. If you want to play an assassin who sneaks up on people and kills them, they can roll a Rogue. It really isn't about individual abilities, it's about themes.



    So what you're saying is that in order to play a Tinker I have to max out Engineering and play about 5 classes at once, yet for you to play a bow user who shoots magical arrows, you only need to roll a Hunter? That doesn't seem balanced at all.
    Anya Eversong; Clea Deathstrider: Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies; Cyndia Hawkspear.

    I can also say they are Banshees because the Banshee had a Posession ability and the Dark Ranger had a Charm ability.

    I can say that Sylvanas is not a Banshee, because she doesn't have the Anti-magic Shell ability of Banshees. I can be nitpicky as well.

    I can argue that Sylvanas is not a Banshee. Banshees are incorporeal undead elf women, and Sylvanas regained her physical body. so, technically, she is not a Banshee. being called the Banshee Queen doesn't make her a Banshee, like being called the Lich King doesn't make you a Lich. possessing the ability to scream does not necessarily make you a Banshee. Priests have a Psychic Scream ability. just like how the Lich King using Frost abilities does not make him a Lich.

    You are being spiteful. i can be too.

    Not true. Monks from other races did not use Pandaren martial arts (Auchenai and Scarlet Crusade). Chen and Mojo Stormstouts were unique in that department.

    Sisterhood of Elune was in the Priest order hall. when you don't have where to put them, you put them in the closest thing possible. that's why Warlocks had the Metamorphosis and Death Coil abilities. not because they were Demon Hunters or Death Knights. but, because they were the closest thing possible. That's, also, why Shamans have Shadow Hunter abilities, Rogues have Warden abilities, Warriors have Blademaster abilities, Hunters have Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon/Sea Witch abilities, Engineers have Tinker abilities and Alchemists have Alchemists abilities. Because they are the closest thing possible, not because they fill that role. If it was the case, we would never have Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

    It is about abilities. I could tell you go play a Rogue and use Illidan's Glaive if you want to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you to be a Warlock and use Metamorphosis (back in the day) if you wanted to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you, be a Warlock and pretend you are summoning undead, or be a Warrior and wear the Dreadnaught gear if you want to be a Death Knight. I could tell you be a Rogue or a Warrior and equip invisible fist weapons if you want to be a Monk. simple answer - it just doesn't do.
    as for the abilities, there are way more than are presented on the Warcraft 3 hero units (see: Samuro, Maiev, Sylvanas, Tyrande and Gazlow on Heroes of the Storm). if one or two abilities would have sufficed, Demon Hunters wouldn't need two whole specs, Death Knight would not need 3 specs and Pandaren wouldn't need 3 specs. just strap a couple of abilities, dress them accordingly and there you go. Apparently, you would be satisfied with that.

    Yes, just take Engineering. That's exactly the kind of argument you are using with me. and don't forget that the Hunter class does not have the Starfall ability of the Priestess of the Moon (Druids have it), Hunters do not have the Mana shield and Forked Lightning of a Sea Witch (Mages and Shamans have it) and Hunters do not have the Life Drain, Silence and Charm abilities of a Dark Ranger (Warlocks and Priests have it). So, yes, according to you i'll have to play about 5 classes at once to be any of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    engineering is a profession not a class.
    also blizzard has said DK is the necromancer class.

    comparing apples to oranges.
    How would Teriz say it?: "it's good enough. just take up engineering and use your imagination to pretend you are a fully-fledged Tinker. who needs a Tinker class when engineering has Tinkering (Enchantments)".

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker_(engineering)

    It is, literally, called "Tinker". so, no need to add a Tinker Class (sarcasm).

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    does engineering let me fight in a steampunk mech?
    How would Teriz describe it?: "Just acquire a G.M.O.D mount and pretend you're using a mech suit. It doesn't matter that it does not have combat abilities, just use your imagination. that would, surely, satisfy the fantasy".

    And yes, i know he is advocating for Tinkers. but, he likes to be a smartass.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    they are literally the 2 tech races. their whole society is based around tech, so it was make sense to only limit Tinker to those 2 races.
    You forget about Dwarves and Mechagnomes. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Based on what I saw from the Nathanos cinematic, Tyrande's Night Warrior would be better served as a DH 3rd spec.

    It was, which is why it had to be taken from Warlocks in order for Demon Hunters to be a class in the game.

    Because they have no plan to ever release a Necromancer or Dark Ranger class.
    What the fuck is this bullshit? Night Warrior being a 3rd Demon Hunter spec because she uses glaives? why not make it a Warden too? Tyrande is clearly a pumped-up version of a Priestess of the Moon. She uses Moon abilities, and an Owl scout, not Fel.

    Same can be said about Dark Rangers, Priestess of the Moon, Sea Witch, Shadow Hunter, Warden and Blademaster. just take out their abilities from the Hunter, Shaman, Mage, Warrior, Rogue, Priest and Druid and give it to them. If it's good enough to be taken out of the Warlock repertoire to be given to the Demon Hunter, then it is good enough for them.

    Who says it? do you work for Blizzard? do you have intel on their plans? Do not speak on their behalf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, I understand the WoW player base quite well.

    Look, the best way to implement the Tinker class is to keep them confined to Goblins, Vulpera, Gnomes, and Mechagnomes. Why? Because that way they're limited to races where their thematics make the most sense, and they don't alter the texture of the game. Goblins and Gnomes are already completely enveloped into the technology theme, the other races are not, especially not Goblin/Gnome tech. It's one thing to see a Goblin in a Shredder mech walking around and doing stuff. It's another thing to see an Orc, Blood Elf, or Draenei inside a goblin shredder doing stuff. This is why I believe Blizzard been slowly introducing the Tinker concept over the course of multiple expansions to slowly have people get used to the idea of a technology class. It started with Helix Blackfuse in MoP and its been working its way up in WoD, Legion, and BFA. But it's been almost entirely Goblin and Gnomes they've been doing that with.

    Now with that said, if Blizzard is willing to create an entirely different model and animation set for Nightborne and Draenei artificers, I'm all for it.
    You forget about Dwarves. and Vulpera are not Tech inclined. they are Alchemists. know your lore.
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-25 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #585
    Stood in the Fire Vrinara's Avatar
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    Blizzard shouldn't try and make classes like other MMO's.

    If we really wanna get down and Dirty, it will be either Bard or Tinker. I say bard because well Warcraft is based off of classic Fantasy games like D&D. A lot of the classes have elements from D&D in them. So Bard would make sense. Not to mention it wouldn't be hard at all. Tinker of course would be next if not bard. Makes the most sense.

    If blizz wanted to be Ballsy. GO Necromancer.

  6. #586
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The ability to use magic, as Rangers do.

    Hunters do not.
    So would the ability to fire magical arrows fall under "ability to use magic"?

    Need an example of Rangers who use magic? Lorthemar and Halduron are both Rangers, and both use magic abilities. Lore-wise, they are not Hunters, not Paladins, not Mages. They are Farstriders, they are Rangers. There is no playable class equivalent of what they are, just as there is no official Priestess of the Moon.
    Well here is Lorthemar's abilities in Nazjatar;

    Nazjatar
    Arc Slash — Magical energy empowers the caster's weapon inflicting Arcane damage.
    Arcane Shot — A quick shot that causes Arcane damage.
    Harpoon — Hurls a harpoon at an enemy, rooting them in place for 3 sec and pulling you to them.
    Stealth — Puts the caster in stealth mode. Lasts until cancelled.

    Looks like Hunter abilities to me, with the exception of Arc Slash.

    Magic user that chooses to use Bows as their weapon of choice. They excel in archery and use it to support their spellcasting.
    Well that isn't what the trope says. Here's the standard Ranger trope;

    The Ranger Classes: Other Names: Hunter. Rangers are woodsmen skilled at surviving in the wild. They may be lumped in with Fighters or Rogues (above) but more often than not are a separate tree of classes all their own. Archery is generally their favored skill, although melee combat also has a focus either primarily (In which case they will probably also have a lot of ranged abilities) or as a backup for when enemies get close. Rangers may also be skilled in some form of wilderness or nature magic, and sometimes capable of utilizing their terrain or surroundings to their advantage. They may be very good at fighting a specific type of enemy, and often take on the role of a Hunter of Monsters against such foes. In a setting that allows guns, they will usually appear in the hands of the Ranger.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...aracterClasses


    Notice how magic isn't emphasized nearly as much as you try to make it out to be.

    Where did I say I believe Blizzard wants to do anything?

    No, you are projecting. I have been clear about my beliefs, I don't think Blizzard would even pursue new classes in the future. They absolutely could, but the devs haven't proven to me they are capable really. On top of this a long term class designer left the company recently, so my beliefs on the state of class design isn't very high. Class skins are the likely future of Classes.
    So why are we having this discussion?

    They don't revolve around the new classes, but each of the classes fit the expansions and have reason to fight.

    The Dark Rangers have lost everything and are in a prrtty poor state of affairs, having just been abandoned by their leader. Where do they fit in the story? They don't. I can't even think how you'd introduce them in a questline. Even Nathanos gets killed off, they're practically leaderless now.
    You're making an excuse. In reality, Sylvanas and Nathanos abandoning the Dark Rangers makes the perfect opportunity to bring them into the game as a playable class. You could have Velonara take over as the new Dark Ranger leader and bring other races into the DR fold. You could even have her partner with Alleria, since Sylvanas is no longer in the picture.

    They don't have plans to ever release ANY class. When was the last time the ever openly stated what classes they are considering and working on? They've only ever denied possibilities, like saying they aren't working on Demon Hunters or saying Tinkers are too whimsical. Not once have I heard them say 'yeah we want Tinkers playable' or 'We'd love to have Dark Rangers'.
    Uh if you read the actual quote from Shadowlands, is says very clearly that they're open to creating more classes in the future.

    You mean the same way the Warlock is the Fel class that folded in Demon Hunter abilities and all its themes, putting the proverbial nail in the coffin for Demon Hunters?

    Is this explicitly what you are talking about?
    The difference being that Blizzard never explicitly stated that they folded the Demon Hunter concept into Warlocks. However, they did explicitly say that they folded Necromancers into the Death Knight class. Blizzard not bringing Necromancers into a game revolving around the Lich king and Death is the second nail in the coffin for the Necromancer concept.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Anya Eversong; Clea Deathstrider: Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies; Cyndia Hawkspear.

    I can also say they are Banshees because the Banshee had a Posession ability and the Dark Ranger had a Charm ability.

    I can say that Sylvanas is not a Banshee, because she doesn't have the Anti-magic Shell ability of Banshees. I can be nitpicky as well.

    I can argue that Sylvanas is not a Banshee. Banshees are incorporeal undead elf women, and Sylvanas regained her physical body. so, technically, she is not a Banshee. being called the Banshee Queen doesn't make her a Banshee, like being called the Lich King doesn't make you a Lich. possessing the ability to scream does not necessarily make you a Banshee. Priests have a Psychic Scream ability. just like how the Lich King using Frost abilities does not make him a Lich.

    You are being spiteful. i can be too.
    Where am I being spiteful? I'm merely giving you the facts. As for Wailing Arrow, what makes you think Hunters couldn't have that ability given that they had Black Arrow for years?

    Not true. Monks from other races did not use Pandaren martial arts (Auchenai and Scarlet Crusade). Chen and Mojo Stormstouts were unique in that department.
    Because there were no Pandarens in the game to show Pandaren martial arts. However, other races utilizing martial arts showed that it was a concept that all races could learn and use. You also have the fact that Pandaren lore wise openly shared knowledge with other races, so it made perfect sense that they would willfully train others in their martial art.

    Sisterhood of Elune was in the Priest order hall. when you don't have where to put them, you put them in the closest thing possible. that's why Warlocks had the Metamorphosis and Death Coil abilities. not because they were Demon Hunters or Death Knights. but, because they were the closest thing possible. That's, also, why Shamans have Shadow Hunter abilities, Rogues have Warden abilities, Warriors have Blademaster abilities, Hunters have Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon/Sea Witch abilities, Engineers have Tinker abilities and Alchemists have Alchemists abilities. Because they are the closest thing possible, not because they fill that role. If it was the case, we would never have Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

    It is about abilities. I could tell you go play a Rogue and use Illidan's Glaive if you want to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you to be a Warlock and use Metamorphosis (back in the day) if you wanted to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you, be a Warlock and pretend you are summoning undead, or be a Warrior and wear the Dreadnaught gear if you want to be a Death Knight. I could tell you be a Rogue or a Warrior and equip invisible fist weapons if you want to be a Monk. simple answer - it just doesn't do.
    as for the abilities, there are way more than are presented on the Warcraft 3 hero units (see: Samuro, Maiev, Sylvanas, Tyrande and Gazlow on Heroes of the Storm). if one or two abilities would have sufficed, Demon Hunters wouldn't need two whole specs, Death Knight would not need 3 specs and Pandaren wouldn't need 3 specs. just strap a couple of abilities, dress them accordingly and there you go. Apparently, you would be satisfied with that.
    I think you're missing the point here; There needs to be some significant difference between an existing class and a proposed class. Currently all I'm getting from you and Triceron is that you want a Hunter that also uses casting magic. That really doesn't provide a significant difference, and every ability you've mentioned like Wailing Arrow would fit perfectly fine in the existing Hunter class.

    Yes, just take Engineering. That's exactly the kind of argument you are using with me. and don't forget that the Hunter class does not have the Starfall ability of the Priestess of the Moon (Druids have it), Hunters do not have the Mana shield and Forked Lightning of a Sea Witch (Mages and Shamans have it) and Hunters do not have the Life Drain, Silence and Charm abilities of a Dark Ranger (Warlocks and Priests have it). So, yes, according to you i'll have to play about 5 classes at once to be any of them.
    Well Engineering isn't a class, so it isn't exactly the argument I'm using against you. I'm saying take the existing Hunter class since it's doing exactly what you're proposing this new class to do. Tinker proponents on the other hand don't have a class to turn to, since no class has the abilities of the Tinker hero from WC3.

    Also yes, Blizzard purposely separated magical abilities from the Hunter class. That's by design. That actually makes your class idea of combining Hunters with magical abilities even less likely.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where am I being spiteful? I'm merely giving you the facts. As for Wailing Arrow, what makes you think Hunters couldn't have that ability given that they had Black Arrow for years?

    Because there were no Pandarens in the game to show Pandaren martial arts. However, other races utilizing martial arts showed that it was a concept that all races could learn and use. You also have the fact that Pandaren lore wise openly shared knowledge with other races, so it made perfect sense that they would willfully train others in their martial art.

    I think you're missing the point here; There needs to be some significant difference between an existing class and a proposed class. Currently all I'm getting from you and Triceron is that you want a Hunter that also uses casting magic. That really doesn't provide a significant difference, and every ability you've mentioned like Wailing Arrow would fit perfectly fine in the existing Hunter class.

    Well Engineering isn't a class, so it isn't exactly the argument I'm using against you. I'm saying take the existing Hunter class since it's doing exactly what you're proposing this new class to do. Tinker proponents on the other hand don't have a class to turn to, since no class has the abilities of the Tinker hero from WC3.

    Also yes, Blizzard purposely separated magical abilities from the Hunter class. That's by design. That actually makes your class idea of combining Hunters with magical abilities even less likely.
    Cuz Hunters do not use Banshee powers. remember how you used to lecture how Dark rangers do not use Banshee abilities? right back at you.

    Again, Pandaren Martial arts are not the same as other races' martial arts, like Humans. they have their August Celestials, Mists and Alcohol.
    Dark Rangers are embracing Night elves now, were embracing Undead forsaken and Humans. so, same as the monk, they could be part of a new class. much like how, originally, Monks were only Brewmasters.

    Same could be said on Priests and Paladins. they aren't distinct enough, according to your logic. just strap plate armor and weapons and there you go. Rogues and Monks aren't distinct enough. just give rogues invisible fist weapons. Demon Hunters aren't distinct enough, just give rogues Illidan's glaives and call it a demon hunter. feral and Guardian aren't distinct enough, we already have rogues and warriors. before shamans were given water spell appearances, their restoration spec looked like a druid's. we could have gotten rid of them as well. before warlocks got fel cosmetic appearances, their fire looked like a fire mage. no need for them to take a spec spot, just get rid of them. why do we need two frost specs (one for death knight and one for mages)? one is enough, get rid of the other one. why do we need two nature-based classes (shaman and druid)? one is enough. just combine them into a Diablo 4 druid and get rid of that unnecessary class spot. why do we need a class that controls fire and ice, when the mage can already do that (and summon elementals on top of that)? get rid of the shaman class - just a waste of a class. why did we need affliction warlocks and shadow priests back in the day? they were too darn similar. let's just erase one of them, completely. it's not like people care about them, individually. why have demo locks and beastmaster hunters? they operate way too similar. just delete these two and call it a summoner. why do we need ret paladins and arms warriors, or prot paladins and prot warriors? they are too darn similar. let's just fuse them together, to not waste anymore precious class/spec slots.

    Metamorphosis would fit just fine within a Warlock. delete the Demon Hunter class. Death Coil would fit just fine within the Warlock. delete the Death Knight class. punches and kicks would fit just fine within a rogue. delete the Monk class.

    Who cares if its a class or not? just take the god damn profession and play make belief as a Tinker. you've got enough abilities within that lousy profession to satisfy you, thematically and gameplay-wise. why so? because i said so, and, apparently, that is good enough to be a good argument against Tinkers.

    That is exactly what makes it more likely. Blizzard wouldn't just remove magical abilities from the Hunter if they are not giving it to a Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon/Sea Witch. Now, the representation and fantasy is even more lackluster, and demands a suiting class/spec. It wasn't my idea to combine Hunters and magical abilities, it was yours. i suggested they added a separate class/specs. you suggested they just added it to the Hunter.
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-25 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #588
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Cuz Hunters do not use Banshee powers. remember how you used to lecture how Dark rangers do not use Banshee abilities? right back at you.
    Wailing Arrow isn't a Banshee power, it's an arrow imbued with magic. Hunters have several arrows like that in their arsenal.

    Again, Pandaren Martial arts are not the same as other races' martial arts, like Humans. they have their August Celestials, Mists and Alcohol.
    I never said they were. I said that other races practicing martial arts and the Pandaren being a welcoming and open culture showed how a Monk class based on Pandaren arts could be established. The issue with Dark Rangers is that it has never been shown that Sylvanas' banshee abilities could be transferred to other Dark Rangers.

    Dark Rangers are embracing Night elves now, were embracing Undead forsaken and Humans. so, same as the monk, they could be part of a new class. much like how, originally, Monks were only Brewmasters.
    See above. Essentially what you have is undead NE hunters. They don't have Sylvanas' abilities.

    Same could be said on Priests and Paladins. they aren't distinct enough, according to your logic. just strap plate armor and weapons and there you go. Rogues and Monks aren't distinct enough. just give rogues invisible fist weapons. Demon Hunters aren't distinct enough, just give rogues Illidan's glaives and call it a demon hunter. feral and Guardian aren't distinct enough, we already have rogues and warriors. before shamans were given water spell appearances, their restoration spec looked like a druid's. we could have gotten rid of them as well. before warlocks got fel cosmetic appearances, their fire looked like a fire mage. no need for them to take a spec spot, just get rid of them. why do we need two frost specs (one for death knight and one for mages)? one is enough, get rid of the other one. why do we need two nature-based classes (shaman and druid)? one is enough. just combine them into a Diablo 4 druid and get rid of that unnecessary class spot. why do we need a class that controls fire and ice, when the mage can already do that (and summon elementals on top of that)? get rid of the shaman class - just a waste of a class. why did we need affliction warlocks and shadow priests back in the day? they were too darn similar. let's just erase one of them, completely. it's not like people care about them, individually. why have demo locks and beastmaster hunters? they operate way too similar. just delete these two and call it a summoner. why do we need ret paladins and arms warriors, or prot paladins and prot warriors? they are too darn similar. let's just fuse them together, to not waste anymore precious class/spec slots.
    I'm not going through that entire block of text, but essentially everything you said here is wrong. Priests and Paladins for example are quite distinct. Paladins don't use Shadow magic, while Shadow magic makes up about 50% of the Priest class and its abilities/talents. Priests don't use weapon based Holy magic, while a good portion of Paladin abilities require Shields and weaponry to work. We can't really say that situation is an equivalent to what you're proposing with a Ranger class.

    Metamorphosis would fit just fine within a Warlock. delete the Demon Hunter class.
    And that was precisely the case until Blizzard moved Metamorphosis from Warlocks to the new DH class.


    Who cares if its a class or not? just take the god damn profession and play make belief as a Tinker. you've got enough abilities within that lousy profession to satisfy you, thematically and gameplay-wise. why so? because i said so, and, apparently, that is good enough to be a good argument against Tinkers.
    Except a profession doesn't allow the gameplay necessary to fill a class role, and it doesn't have abilities, it has items which you have to craft. It's not even close to the same thing. That's sort of the point here; There is a Hunter class where you can actually quest, DPS in raids, utilize abilities and talents, use magical abilities, seek out animal pets, etc. There is no such avenue for the Tinker concept.

    That is exactly what makes it more likely. Blizzard wouldn't just remove magical abilities from the Hunter if they are not giving it to a Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon/Sea Witch. Now, the representation and fantasy is even more lackluster, and demands a suiting class/spec. It wasn't my idea to combine Hunters and magical abilities, it was yours. i suggested they added a separate class/specs. you suggested they just added it to the Hunter.
    You misread what I said. The Sea Witch/PotM/Dark Ranger concepts had their abilities broke apart and spread throughout multiple classes. That is by design, because a class that uses Bows and uses magical spells is redundant.

  9. #589
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But that doesn't disprove my claim, because my point is that there were WC3 abilities translated 1:1 into WoW. The fact that other WC3 abilities were changed doesn't disprove the original point.
    It does disprove your argument because now we no longer have a guarantee that abilities are going to be ported over 1:1 into WoW.

    Considering that he's supposed to be a "King of Lichs", why would you assume that he would look like a standard Lich?
    For the exact same reason you claim that just because he is the "king of liches" he would have lich powers.

    Question, where does it show that Professor Slate is teaching poison at all?

    Well yes, because WoW didn't have a Monk class, and people wanted a Monk class, so Blizzard attached the Monk concept to the Brewmaster/Pandaria concept. Professor Slate isn't even a Necromancer. He's supposedly the character that teaches Necromancers how to use Poison, even though he doesn't use poison himself....
    I guess I should add "poison is not poison" to Teriz's list of nonsensical arguments.

    Would this make you feel better?

    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100319043035

    It's from 2006, before WotLK was announced.
    You mean the art of Wei Wang, an artist that worked for Blizzard Entertainment back in 2006 drawing box art, concept art, and more? In other words, the guy who worked on many of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's artwork, both in and outside of the game, while the expansion was being developed, and likely would've had caught heat if he released that image back in 2006, before the expansion was announced, because it would be a leak?

    So I'll ask you what I asked Triceron; What exactly is a Ranger? Feel free to use RPG tropes to make your case.
    I'm just here to provide counter-evidence your "Blizzard describes X as Y" argument.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  10. #590
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    Yet there's no 'closed doors' considering that the theme of Necromancy in general is something that *STILL* is not fully explored EVEN in Shadowlands. The story we're being told right now is almost an inverse of what we should be learning; Sylvanas wants to break the cycle rather than embrace it the way a Dark Ranger or Necromancer would. The entire expansion is about exploring a Shadowlands that is broken and functioning improperly; I'd think a Necromantic class would be best introduced after we get it functioning again. All the souls are going straight into the Maw; not very fruitful for a Necromantic class.

    Same reason why we didn't have Highmountain and Nightborne Allied Races during Legion; it made more sense to add them after things in the Broken Isles settled down.
    So, do you think introducing a Necromancer class after Shadowlands is done would be a good time to introduce it? If the next expac is going to be Light/Void themed, we could have a a new class to fight the all of the Heretics, Naaru, Voidlords and such, since they deal with magic that neither the Light/Void like, and even fear

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Its just flavors and colors for new class animations, same can be said by :
    "Zandalari and Kul Tiran druid magic is not the same as druid magic of Night Elfs".
    (yet in the end they just gonna have other forms for druids , or other forms for tech based skills )
    Yeah, I mean....

    Just look at Zandalari Priests having to use Void magic. Dosen't make any sense to me lol
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  11. #591
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It does disprove your argument because now we no longer have a guarantee that abilities are going to be ported over 1:1 into WoW.
    Where did anyone say that there was a "guarantee" that the ability would be ported over 1:1? The point was that IF a Tinker class is brought into the game, abilities like Pocket Factory (IF ported over) would give them unique gameplay and mechanics.

    For the exact same reason you claim that just because he is the "king of liches" he would have lich powers.
    The reason I claim that he has Lich powers is because he clearly has Lich powers.

    It says that it's acid. I don't recall any Rogue or Hunter poison abilities being called acid. Further, Acid also does nature damage.

    Is it time to propose an Acid Necromancer spec?

    You mean the art of Wei Wang, an artist that worked for Blizzard Entertainment back in 2006 drawing box art, concept art, and more? In other words, the guy who worked on many of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's artwork, both in and outside of the game, while the expansion was being developed, and likely would've had caught heat if he released that image back in 2006, before the expansion was announced, because it would be a leak?
    LoL! That art came out in back in 2006. Hence the copyright. You tend to get things copyrighted when you release them to the public. There's no need to copyright materials that are in house or under NDA.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-25 at 03:05 PM.

  12. #592
    Very interesting. I was never interested in this question

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    people just love to hate Goblins and Gnomes. they refuse to let them have their own class.
    It's not a love to hate thing, I personally just flat out don't like short races, mainly because of their animations being so...I don't know, unnatural? exaggerated? they just look weird to me and I can't enjoy playing as one.

    Therefore any class that's inherently tied to them, will be a class I won't play most likely. Blizzard knows this, I highly doubt they'd tie a class directly to two of the least played races in the game. Demon hunter was different because it's tied directly to two of the most played races in the game.

    Couple that with their being very little lore supporting restricting it specifically to those two races. Just because the predominant "Tinkers" are a Goblin and a Gnome doesn't mean only those races can be one. Same as why Pandaren aren't the only Monks. If the lore supports their being Monks of nearly every playable race the day the class is introduced, because the knowledge and skills can be taught, the same logic can be applied to Tinkers.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Wailing Arrow isn't a Banshee power, it's an arrow imbued with magic. Hunters have several arrows like that in their arsenal.

    I never said they were. I said that other races practicing martial arts and the Pandaren being a welcoming and open culture showed how a Monk class based on Pandaren arts could be established. The issue with Dark Rangers is that it has never been shown that Sylvanas' banshee abilities could be transferred to other Dark Rangers.

    See above. Essentially what you have is undead NE hunters. They don't have Sylvanas' abilities.
    I'm not going through that entire block of text, but essentially everything you said here is wrong. Priests and Paladins for example are quite distinct. Paladins don't use Shadow magic, while Shadow magic makes up about 50% of the Priest class and its abilities/talents. Priests don't use weapon based Holy magic, while a good portion of Paladin abilities require Shields and weaponry to work. We can't really say that situation is an equivalent to what you're proposing with a Ranger class.

    And that was precisely the case until Blizzard moved Metamorphosis from Warlocks to the new DH class.

    Except a profession doesn't allow the gameplay necessary to fill a class role, and it doesn't have abilities, it has items which you have to craft. It's not even close to the same thing. That's sort of the point here; There is a Hunter class where you can actually quest, DPS in raids, utilize abilities and talents, use magical abilities, seek out animal pets, etc. There is no such avenue for the Tinker concept.

    You misread what I said. The Sea Witch/PotM/Dark Ranger concepts had their abilities broke apart and spread throughout multiple classes. That is by design, because a class that uses Bows and uses magical spells is redundant.
    Oh, so now it's an arrow imbued with power. why would a hunter shoot an arrow imbued with a Banshee power? anything Banshee, you said, was unique to the Banshee and should remain part of the Banshee.

    Monks could have been established without teaching other races. not all races had monks among them. they just determined that the Pandaren taught everybody else, so everybody else, pretty much, gets to be a Monk. That's not lore related. that's just giving away free candy.

    And what Banshee abilities would those be? if Wailing Arrow is just an arrow imbued with magic, then Banshee's Curse is just a Warlock curse, Haunting Wave is just the Priest's Shadowy Apparitions, Posession is just the Priest's Mind Control and Banshee scream is just the Priest's Psychic Scream.

    Of course you won't go through the entire block of text. it is just easier to say that i'm wrong. First of all, shadow is not 50%, it's one spec out of three (33%). second of all, since it used to be extremely similar to affliction warlocks, it should have been (according to your logic) just one spec. back in the early days of the priest design, discipline used to be a melee attacker. Shield-using Paladins could have been merged with protection Warriors (because of their similarities, according to your logic). Now, we are left with Holy paladin and discipline/Holy priest. the two of them use holy healing spells and protective spells. too much overlapping (again according to your logic). let's just merge the two into 1 holy class and get rid of the unnecessary division.

    Oh, so you were against Demon Hunters as well?

    So does a few 'representative' abilities do not fill the gameplay of class/spec. I could just tell you to combine it with a Hunter class or a Warrior, to supplement the engineering profession and determine that it fulfills the Tinker role perfectly. you can do all that while having the engineering profession. just take a class, and another profession, like Alchemy, and you have everything you wished for. I could easily say that the Hunter already fills the niche of a Tinker, with its explosive abilities, like Wildfire Bomb, High-explosive Trap and Explosive Shot. would that satisfy you?

    No, it isn't redundant. you just can't grasp that others have desires as well. it's called egocentrism. I could easily say that the Brewmaster is redundant as well. A martial artist using alcohol? is this a joke? and it still made it into the game.

    You wanna know how it should have been?

    Hunter

    Beastmastery: based on the Beastmaster hero unit (Rexxar).

    Marksmanship: based on the Sapper unit (Junkrat).

    Survival: based on the Headhunter/Berserker units (Zul'jin).

    Ranger

    Dark: based on the Dark Ranger hero unit (Sylvanas) and maybe the Diablo 3 Demon Hunter (Valla).

    Moon: based on the Priestess of the Moon hero unit (Tyrande).

    Sea: based on the Sea Witch hero unit (Vash'j).

    is that distinct enough for you?
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-25 at 03:58 PM.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Anya Eversong; Clea Deathstrider: Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies; Cyndia Hawkspear.

    I can also say they are Banshees because the Banshee had a Posession ability and the Dark Ranger had a Charm ability.

    I can say that Sylvanas is not a Banshee, because she doesn't have the Anti-magic Shell ability of Banshees. I can be nitpicky as well.

    I can argue that Sylvanas is not a Banshee. Banshees are incorporeal undead elf women, and Sylvanas regained her physical body. so, technically, she is not a Banshee. being called the Banshee Queen doesn't make her a Banshee, like being called the Lich King doesn't make you a Lich. possessing the ability to scream does not necessarily make you a Banshee. Priests have a Psychic Scream ability. just like how the Lich King using Frost abilities does not make him a Lich.

    You are being spiteful. i can be too.

    Not true. Monks from other races did not use Pandaren martial arts (Auchenai and Scarlet Crusade). Chen and Mojo Stormstouts were unique in that department.

    Sisterhood of Elune was in the Priest order hall. when you don't have where to put them, you put them in the closest thing possible. that's why Warlocks had the Metamorphosis and Death Coil abilities. not because they were Demon Hunters or Death Knights. but, because they were the closest thing possible. That's, also, why Shamans have Shadow Hunter abilities, Rogues have Warden abilities, Warriors have Blademaster abilities, Hunters have Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon/Sea Witch abilities, Engineers have Tinker abilities and Alchemists have Alchemists abilities. Because they are the closest thing possible, not because they fill that role. If it was the case, we would never have Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

    It is about abilities. I could tell you go play a Rogue and use Illidan's Glaive if you want to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you to be a Warlock and use Metamorphosis (back in the day) if you wanted to be a Demon Hunter. i could tell you, be a Warlock and pretend you are summoning undead, or be a Warrior and wear the Dreadnaught gear if you want to be a Death Knight. I could tell you be a Rogue or a Warrior and equip invisible fist weapons if you want to be a Monk. simple answer - it just doesn't do.
    as for the abilities, there are way more than are presented on the Warcraft 3 hero units (see: Samuro, Maiev, Sylvanas, Tyrande and Gazlow on Heroes of the Storm). if one or two abilities would have sufficed, Demon Hunters wouldn't need two whole specs, Death Knight would not need 3 specs and Pandaren wouldn't need 3 specs. just strap a couple of abilities, dress them accordingly and there you go. Apparently, you would be satisfied with that.

    Yes, just take Engineering. That's exactly the kind of argument you are using with me. and don't forget that the Hunter class does not have the Starfall ability of the Priestess of the Moon (Druids have it), Hunters do not have the Mana shield and Forked Lightning of a Sea Witch (Mages and Shamans have it) and Hunters do not have the Life Drain, Silence and Charm abilities of a Dark Ranger (Warlocks and Priests have it). So, yes, according to you i'll have to play about 5 classes at once to be any of them.



    How would Teriz say it?: "it's good enough. just take up engineering and use your imagination to pretend you are a fully-fledged Tinker. who needs a Tinker class when engineering has Tinkering (Enchantments)".

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker_(engineering)

    It is, literally, called "Tinker". so, no need to add a Tinker Class (sarcasm).



    How would Teriz describe it?: "Just acquire a G.M.O.D mount and pretend you're using a mech suit. It doesn't matter that it does not have combat abilities, just use your imagination. that would, surely, satisfy the fantasy".

    And yes, i know he is advocating for Tinkers. but, he likes to be a smartass.



    You forget about Dwarves and Mechagnomes. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker



    What the fuck is this bullshit? Night Warrior being a 3rd Demon Hunter spec because she uses glaives? why not make it a Warden too? Tyrande is clearly a pumped-up version of a Priestess of the Moon. She uses Moon abilities, and an Owl scout, not Fel.

    Same can be said about Dark Rangers, Priestess of the Moon, Sea Witch, Shadow Hunter, Warden and Blademaster. just take out their abilities from the Hunter, Shaman, Mage, Warrior, Rogue, Priest and Druid and give it to them. If it's good enough to be taken out of the Warlock repertoire to be given to the Demon Hunter, then it is good enough for them.

    Who says it? do you work for Blizzard? do you have intel on their plans? Do not speak on their behalf.



    You forget about Dwarves. and Vulpera are not Tech inclined. they are Alchemists. know your lore.
    I am not talking about Teriz's tinker idea. i have already addressed that. I am talking about in general and the idea in my head.

    i will admit i did forget about mechagnomes. thank you for reminding me. so 3 races.

    i wouldnt consider dwarves since i think all they have ever made is guns and siege engines. actually close but not enough to justify being apart of tinker class.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  16. #596
    Well a ranged class for starters.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's not a love to hate thing, I personally just flat out don't like short races, mainly because of their animations being so...I don't know, unnatural? exaggerated? they just look weird to me and I can't enjoy playing as one.

    Therefore any class that's inherently tied to them, will be a class I won't play most likely. Blizzard knows this, I highly doubt they'd tie a class directly to two of the least played races in the game. Demon hunter was different because it's tied directly to two of the most played races in the game.

    Couple that with their being very little lore supporting restricting it specifically to those two races. Just because the predominant "Tinkers" are a Goblin and a Gnome doesn't mean only those races can be one. Same as why Pandaren aren't the only Monks. If the lore supports their being Monks of nearly every playable race the day the class is introduced, because the knowledge and skills can be taught, the same logic can be applied to Tinkers.
    since when did humans get demon hunters?
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    since when did humans get demon hunters?
    First, don't play dumb. You know I mean Night Elves and Blood Elves. Which are two of the most played races in the game, not THE two most played.

    Two, the metric I'm using shows NE being higher than Human, as of May 2020 based on data pulled from Warcraft Realms database.

    https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...n-infographic/

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    I am not talking about Teriz's tinker idea. i have already addressed that. I am talking about in general and the idea in my head.

    i will admit i did forget about mechagnomes. thank you for reminding me. so 3 races.

    i wouldnt consider dwarves since i think all they have ever made is guns and siege engines. actually close but not enough to justify being apart of tinker class.
    Torbjorn of Overwatch might change your mind.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    First, don't play dumb. You know I mean Night Elves and Blood Elves. Which are two of the most played races in the game, not THE two most played.

    Two, the metric I'm using shows NE being higher than Human, as of May 2020 based on data pulled from Warcraft Realms database.

    https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...n-infographic/
    i am pretty sure Warcraft realms data is not accurate. the last time i used it some of my characters didnt show up.

    demon hunters went to Night elves and Blood elves because it made sense. Illidan only trained those 2 races but they Illidari if they wanted could train more.

    i wish we more classes like demon hunter(available to only 2 races)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Torbjorn of Overwatch might change your mind.
    that is a different game set in a different universe. so why are you even bringing him up?
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

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