1. #6201
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    4th spec is possible, but I think just as unlikely as it being its own class. We haven't even seen Dark Ranger added as a class or a spec, and the closest we've ever gotten are two items off Sylvanas. I have a feeling this is the extent that Blizzard is willing to bridge the concepts; just as mere homages rather than incorporating the full kit.
    What gives people hope is this is exactly what happened to the demon hunter, is it not? Just 'mere homages rather than incorporating the full kit' with Illidan's warglaives and blindfold back in TBC. And the demon hunter also was considered "too specialized for it to be its own class". And yet we still got the DHs years down the line.

    And then we had 'homages' for the monk class in the form of the pandaren monk pet. I don't know, I think it's just as likely, if not more so, that it could become its own class instead of just an "off-spec".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    1- Blademasters are types of Warriors, but are not formally part of the WoW playable Warrior class.
    2- Warrior class has a connection to Blademasters. We know there is a connection because they made a Blademaster NPC a Warrior trainer, meaning that a Blademaster NPC does have connection to Warriors.
    Honestly, I think the connection between blademasters and the warrior class is not too different from the connection between priests and paladins. One helped teach other other, they share similarities, but are not the same thing.
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  2. #6202
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What gives people hope is this is exactly what happened to the demon hunter, is it not? Just 'mere homages rather than incorporating the full kit' with Illidan's warglaives and blindfold back in TBC. And the demon hunter also was considered "too specialized for it to be its own class". And yet we still got the DHs years down the line.

    And then we had 'homages' for the monk class in the form of the pandaren monk pet. I don't know, I think it's just as likely, if not more so, that it could become its own class instead of just an "off-spec".
    Just having hope is meaningless if there's no indication of intent for Blizzard to pursue it.

    We know that Demon Hunters had a strong popularity and demand backing it to warrant it being added. It was enough to have an entire expansion be based on tying in loose ends of the Legion invasion of Azeroth, that was hinted at earlier in both MoP and WoD. We have nothing to suggest this same very thing for Blademasters; and their roots are tied to the Burning Blade who don't really play a big role in the foreseeable future.

    We don't really have any homages to the Blademaster class at all in terms of hinting at a bigger role in the near future.

    At most, I could see them adding them as a part of many other 'Class Skins'. I don't really see 4th spec or their own class being a thing, really. If Dark Ranger was already considered too much effort to add beyond a couple items with Sylvanas HOTS abilities, then I don't see them doing anything special for Blademaster either. They definitely don't have the pull that Demon Hunters would have.

    Honestly, I think the connection between blademasters and the warrior class is not too different from the connection between priests and paladins. One helped teach other other, they share similarities, but are not the same thing.
    The question is - If the Paladin class did not already exist, would Blizzard go out of their way to add one today. Seeing how they added Demon Hunters so poorly doesn't give me much confidence in their overall class design.

    As I said above, if Blizzard stuck more closely to the original Everquest style design where each class has a unique feature and was brought for the class/spec rather than for the player, we'd have a better chance of seeing more races than anything. Right now Blizzard is so laser-focused on maintaining balance that they're opting for borrowed power mechanics and systems that only last for the duration of a given expansion rather than adding a new permanent fixture to the game.

    It's really up in the air on what Blizzard chooses to add next, and my money is still on Tinker and Dragonsworn as the top two most plausible concepts, just because of their relevance to future potential concepts and the general popular demand. And overall, If Necro and DR didn't get picked for Shadowlands, I consider Blizzard being overly-careful in choosing any class that is less-than-ideal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #6203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just having hope is meaningless if there's no indication of intent for Blizzard to pursue it.
    And we don't know if there is or isn't any, just like we didn't know if there was any for Wrath, MoP and Legion before those expansions went live and revealed their new classes.

    The question is - If the Paladin class did not already exist, would Blizzard go out of their way to add one today. Seeing how they added Demon Hunters so poorly doesn't give me much confidence in their overall class design.
    I don't think that is a fair comparison. The demon-hunter is a super-specialized concept, while the paladin concept is a broad one: we have the healer, the shield-bearer and the inquisitor roles.
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  4. #6204
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because nothing is mutually exclusive. All of those statements can be true. As we've said, Blizzard has left it completely ambiguous.
    there is nothing ambiguous, unless you are acting like the conspiracy theories, that it most be something grand behind everything.

    Everything is true. A Blademaster is a type of Warrior. A Blademaster is also its own concept and class. A Warrior NPC can become a Blademaster. A Warrior is also its own Playable class that is not a Blademaster. Nothing here is particularly untrue.
    "not everything is true", blademaster is not his own class, blademaster is a concept/a theme of warriors, that mastered the blade, this is not a matter of finding common ground, blademasters are warriors period, the arms spec is essentially the blademaster in the warcraft fantasy, they share theme, fantasy and skils, period.

    They are not a carbon copy because again, warrior need to be broad to fit other themes, it can't be just blademaster, it need to be mountain king, tauren chieftain and others as well.


    1- Blademasters are types of Warriors, but are not formally part of the WoW playable Warrior class.
    Blademasters are warriors, and, the warrior class, specifically the arms spec is their representation playable.
    2- Warrior class has a connection to Blademasters. We know there is a connection because they made a Blademaster NPC a Warrior trainer, meaning that a Blademaster NPC does have connection to Warriors.
    We know they have because blademasters are warriors and the arms spec is basically a blademaster.

    3- The Warrior class does not fully represent the Blademaster's themes and concepts. It has critical strikes and Bladestorm, but it does not have Windwalk and Mirror Image.
    The point is not how much it does, the point is that, inded, represent then, and if they just miss 2 skills, they can just add then and its done, without the necessity of the sutpidy to create a new class for that.

    The class theme and concept is not entirelly hostage of those skills, like i said, those skills are more related to the orcish side of the warrior fantasy, it would not feel good to alliance to mimic a horde hero class entirelly, like it would if the fury warrior were just mountain king.

    4- Blademaster is not represented as a playable concept, either by title or gameplay, in WoW. They are neither an Arms Warrior or a Monk Spec. There is factually no way to truly play as a Blademaster in WoW.
    It is represented by the warrior class, specifically the arms spec, and yes, there is nothing about monks to tie with blademaster.

    no way to trully play a blademaster? you have to say what is the "true blademaster" friend, because right now, arms warriors can de facto, play as blademaster without mirror image and windwalk, and surprise, there is blademasters npcs in the game, without those two skills, so you are indeed, playing like a blademaster, just not like all of then
    What I've presented above are the most factual explanations for the Blademaster.
    nope, its not

    There is no way to 100% define a Blademaster because they have not treated it as its own class or fully integrated it into the Warrior.
    Blademasters are warriors, that is just facts, they are not treated as its own class, because they aren't, they are not fully integrated into warriors because like i said, two skills is not what define the class and there is reasons of why the spec is not a carbon copy of a horde hero unit.
    Even as a specialized title, we know that Blizzard keeps a fair distance between existing and potential class concepts. Even if they are as closely defined as a Sunwalker is to a Paladin, there is enough for us to define a difference since Sunwalkers specifically derive their powers from the Sun. This is enough to say regard that there *IS* a difference between a Sunwalker and a typical Holy Light-based Paladin. The connection is enough that we can say Sunwalkers are Paladins, but we can't turn it around and say Paladins are Sunwalkers.
    If you ignore the facts and start going for ehadcanon? yes, "powers derived from the sun" is not a "real" thing, there is no difference in powers betwheen a sunwalker and a paladin, there is no 'light of the sun" and "holy light", both are light, the only difference is the faith, the taurens worship the sun.

    This also is a thing i said before, you are confusing titles, names and actual classes, just like far seer are not their own class, blademasters aren't, they are names for a orc shaman and a orc warrior, but, to the ones who "reach greater lv/power"

    a paladin, a human paladin, is not a sunwalker because he does not worship the sun, and that is their only difference

    Same difference applies to Blademasters. Warriors are not Blademasters the same way Paladins are not Sunwalkers. Sunwalker is a very specific type of Paladin, and even if Blizzard has no intention to make a 'Sunwalker class', it is enough to warrant a distinction in conversation. We can't simply regard all Paladins as being Sunwalkers just because Blizzard has a Sunwalker doing everything a Paladin does. A Paladin can do everything a Sunwalker can do, but they are still rooted with a conceptual difference - that being where they derive their source of energy.

    no... Literally, paladins and sunwalker is the same thing, the only difference is their faith, not the source of energy, just like the only difference ebtween a warrior and a blademaster is a name , since some of then aren't considered blademaster, just like not all shamans are far seers, this don't make then their own class, at best a prestige class in rpg terms.

    We have to respect the titles and their meanings. If Blizzard has not made all Warriors into Blademasters, then there's really no need to consider that to be a fact.
    .

    that is absurd, we don't ned to blizzard to make every warrior a blademaster to consider this a fact, is just absurd.
    There is no case where the Warrior class can actually represent Blademasters any more than the Engineering profession could represent Tinkers. Tinker is a type of Engineer, but Engineers are not Tinkers. Blademaster is a type of Warrior, but Warriors are not Blademasters.
    The thing is tinker can actually be a class, because fuck a shit profession, nobody cares about it and the class will not make the profession any less relevant, there is significant and substantial differences between a profession and an actual class in the battlefield and those are compltely different from the same class with another name, who will, totally steal and delute the actual playable class.

  5. #6205
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And we don't know if there is or isn't any, just like we didn't know if there was any for Wrath, MoP and Legion before those expansions went live and revealed their new classes.
    We don't know, you are absolutely correct.

    I don't think that is a fair comparison. The demon-hunter is a super-specialized concept, while the paladin concept is a broad one: we have the healer, the shield-bearer and the inquisitor roles.
    I honestly don't see a difference.

    Classes can be specific or broad depending on how Blizzard chooses to implement the class concepts. There's no one way to approach any class design.

    Paladin only has 3 roles because Vanilla happened to give them 3 roles, and the game has grandfathered that design to modern day. If we look at the actual role of the Paladin back in Vanilla, it really only existed as a jack of all trades that would have only been brought to raids for the buffs. You weren't even allowed to tank or DPS; you literally were brought to buff. There was no real 'Shield bearer' identity since only Warriors tanked, there was no real 'Inquisitor' since Paladin originally had almost zero offensive Holy abilities, and all DPS was auto-attack + melee procs. The original identity of the Paladin was very basic, and super niche, if they didn't expand on the concept over the years and give them unique traits like Avengers Shield, Beacon of Light and the Holy Power resource.

    We don't have that benefit today, where they could just add a Blademaster that was added to the game just because it had Bladestorm, Windwalk and Mirror Image, and over 15+ years get its themes expanded upon and grown to be different from existing Warriors, Monks and Rogues. Today, they would have to retrofit it the same way they did for Demon Hunter, and take abilities and themes from existing classes to carve out space to do so. I mean, we all like to think Blizzard could be more creative, but as I point out I'm basing my expectations on what Blizzard has already done, and they took the path of least resistance for the DH by gutting Warlocks and Monks and reusing their concepts for a new class just so it fits.

    I'm not a fan of the modern class design philosophies.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-26 at 11:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #6206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it doesn't mean "blademasters = warriors".
    it indeed does, because what other class was a trainner for another one?

    and thank god its not the only factor and we have many to combine

    It's still a demonstration of how the mission table is not a precise (i.e. not reliable) way to determine what is the "class" and "spec" of a character. The rangari were NOT the only examples I mentioned.
    just because there is some off-shots doe snot mean its not valid, the mission table support things we already knew, Lantressor of the blade was aalwas a blademaster, used warrior skills and is tagged as arms spec, like others
    Just like death knights had warrior and warlock skills?
    no, you are again using extrapolationa arguments of bygone times

    Which leads me to believe that the Blademaster, despite its name, could have some spellcasting added to it, considering their ability to go invisible/stealth and to create duplicate images of themselves.
    Nope, none of their skills require mana, this is more or less a reminiscent of the wc3 game, their skills are not magic, therefore its does not need mana, they could use with rage just fine, in fact, in the wc3 they specifically mention "warrior energies" aka, rage.
    "Being broad" does not mean "automatically encompasses everything that wields a weapon".
    who said that? again, stopa ssuming thing si enver said, im saying it encompasses different warrior cultures among wow races., thats why it can't be focused on only one.
    Wasn't the monk class a "pandaren thing first and foremost"?
    yes, and? pandarens were not an enemy race, the monk class was introduced at the same time as the pandarens, pandarens were training disciples among horde and alliance, is completely nonsensical to believe the blademaster arts, which are rare even among orcs, would be teached to every warrior race in the alliance.

    We'll cross that bridge when someone advocates for a "mountain king" class. Right now, we're focusing on the Blademaster, and the class' name doesn't really sound like "Horde-only". I see no problem in having human blademasters, draenei blademasters, dwarven blademasters or night elf blademasters, for example.
    Well thats you, and you alone, i would not, just like i would not like a mountain king in the horde, it does not feel right

    The name, was horde only for a long time, until recent times, with some off-shots,

    and thats the thing, what is a blademaster for you? if its just the mirror image/wind walk guy, that both is an orcish thing only, how it would feel right to a human use that? they trained with orcs? they made up the same techinique on their own? is just nonsensical as a new class entirelly.

    But, times are indeed evolving in the lore in general, and after the class halls, ic an see knowledge among people of the same class being shared, so, some orc blademaster could share their ancestral and ancient techniques to other races, even when that sounds stupid, and the warrior class gain more blademaster-ish abilities, but as a new class? inope, redudnant, pointless and dumb in general

    Not really. The blademaster is arguably not playable considering I don't have the blademaster gameplay on my warrior. I cannot go invisible/stealth and I cannot summon illusory images of my character to confuse the enemy.
    there is tons of blademasters in the game who do not use wind-walk and mirror image, we can use then as basis and see that we indeed are playing then

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Concerning Blademasters, I don't think there's enough to the concept to get a full class out of - I think it much more suitable for it to be a fourth spec for Rogues or Monks. I would have included Warriors, but I think the concept strays too far from Warriors at their core (heavily-armoured brutes) for it to fit in there. They're about finesse, agility, and misdirection, which would fit in well with either of the aforementioned.
    the thing is, blademasters are far more different of rogues and monks combined than warriors.

    Monk concept is literally no arms combat as their main thing, and weapons being a side, while blademasters are all about the blade, rogues are also sneaky assassins, something blademasters aren't.

    Blademaster are armored as much as orc warriors are, in general, so not a point, but if we are putting 5 specs into play, it would make even more sense to make a spec for warriors, making somewhat a different kind of gameplay, pretty much like some classes ahve dps/tank or ranged/melee dps

  7. #6207
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    there is nothing ambiguous, unless you are acting like the conspiracy theories, that it most be something grand behind everything.
    Then how do you account for all the Blademasters who aren't using Warrior abilities? Who do not use any Warrior abilities whatsoever?

    You're implying that a Blademaster that uses zero Warrior abilities to still be a Warrior based on your own belief that they are one and the same.

    Warriors do not use any sort of elemental/magical blade enhancements, do not use Windwalk or Mirror Image. We are shown certain Blademaster NPCs who use these abilities, some which do not use any Arms warriors abilities whatsoever.

    They are not a carbon copy because again, warrior need to be broad to fit other themes, it can't be just blademaster, it need to be mountain king, tauren chieftain and others as well.

    Blademasters are warriors, and, the warrior class, specifically the arms spec is their representation playable.
    But it can't be a Blademaster either. All of the MK and Tauren Chieftain tools are represented, but the same can't be said about Blademasters. We know this as a fact. Bladestorm is the *only* ability that the Warrior has that is related to the Blademaster.

    On top of this, Arms Warriors can use any weapon. Tthere is no benefit for using bladed weapons, and no indication of any particular mastery of them in the Warrior class. You can swap from a Sword to a Mace and still use Bladestorm. That is not the Blademaster identity. That is a Warrior identity.

    The Blademaster is a very niche concept, and a Warrior class breaks all of the niche rules. Same reason why we wouldn't attribute Demon Hunters to Rogues or Warlocks.

    We know they have because blademasters are warriors and the arms spec is basically a blademaster.
    Arms Warriors use non-bladed weapons equally. More aptly, an Arms Warrior is a Weapons Master, while a Blademaster is a much more dedicated and niche subtype that specializes in Blades, as well as the use of mystical abilities like Windwalk and Mirror Image. It's a concept that Blizzard has not formally inducted into the Warrior at all.

    If you're just talking about a Warrior who uses Katanas, then you're not talking about a Blademaster like Samuro.

    The point is not how much it does, the point is that, inded, represent then, and if they just miss 2 skills, they can just add then and its done, without the necessity of the sutpidy to create a new class for that.
    Yes, so until they add those missing skills, they are not actually Blademasters. You see the paradox you're facing right?


    All it takes to make a Hawaiian pizza is add pineapples to a ham pizza. Would you still call it a Hawaiian pizza if it didn't have pineapples? You're using specific terms for something that isn't actually being represented. Bladestorm is just the Ham; something which any Warropr spec could use. Only recently did they change it to be default to Arms and as a Talent pick for Fury. The ability is generic enough that even Felguards had it in TBC in the form of Felstorm.

    All you have is the ham, and you're missing the other key ingredients to make it Hawaiian. Warriors have the *potential* to become Blademasters, just as a Ham pizza has the *potential* of becoming a Hawaiian pizza. But until that key missing ingredient is added, you can't really push them as being one and the same.

    Everyone who knows what a Hawaiian pizza is will knowingly expect to see pineapple. Anyone who knows what a Blademaster is will expect to see Windwalk and Mirror Image.

    And even if you personally think Blademasters are Warriors, you're really not fooling anyone else if you think anyone else considers the Arms Warrior without Windwalk and Mirror Image is going to be passable as a Blademaster. Everyone is expecting the missing ingredients if you're going to be using the name.

    I mean everyone will agree if you say Hawaiian is a type of Ham Pizza, but there's no way you can have a Hawaiian pizza without the pineapples.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-27 at 12:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #6208
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it indeed does, because what other class was a trainner for another one?
    He's not a trainer anymore, is he? Anyways, just because he used to be a warrior trainer doesn't make him a warrior. Ever heard of the old saying "I've taught you all you know, but I haven't taught you all I know"?

    and thank god its not the only factor and we have many to combine
    Except that is the only factor about that particular NPC.

    just because there is some off-shots doe snot mean its not valid,
    So.... does "some off-shots" count, or do not count? Because above you are counting the single "ex-trainer" blademaster NPC despite being what could be called "an off-shot", but here you are dismissing several off-shots as being "just off-shots".

    the mission table support things we already knew, Lantressor of the blade was aalwas a blademaster, used warrior skills and is tagged as arms spec, like others
    Again: the "tagged as arms spec" can be explained as just being WoD's table way of adequating NPCs to player classes for a simpler and concise list. Need I remind you of all those "off-shots" you just dismissed?

    no, you are again using extrapolationa arguments of bygone times
    If the argument still holds up today, I can use it.

    Nope, none of their skills require mana, this is more or less a reminiscent of the wc3 game, their skills are not magic, therefore its does not need mana, they could use with rage just fine, in fact, in the wc3 they specifically mention "warrior energies" aka, rage.
    Then explain to me how can someone go invisible (not stealth, but invisible) without using magic. And on that same boat, do explain how one can create duplicates of themselves without using magic as well.

    who said that? again, stopa ssuming thing si enver said, im saying it encompasses different warrior cultures among wow races., thats why it can't be focused on only one.
    Learn to discern hyperbole. And again: just because the warrior class is "broad" it doesn't mean it encompasses all the warrior cultures. Especially since we consider that the warrior class, just like all the classes in the game-- broad or not-- is limited in what it can represent due to the way Blizzard designs the classes' specs. You don't get "blademaster" representation from any of the warrior specs, just like you don't get "dark ranger" representation from any of the hunter specs.

    yes, and? pandarens were not an enemy race, the monk class was introduced at the same time as the pandarens, pandarens were training disciples among horde and alliance, is completely nonsensical to believe the blademaster arts, which are rare even among orcs, would be teached to every warrior race in the alliance.
    The death knight is a class exclusive to an "enemy race" (the Scourge) and yet literally every member of both factions can make death knights. If Blizzard wants to make blademasters playable, they'll find a way to make the class available for both sides.

    and thats the thing, what is a blademaster for you? if its just the mirror image/wind walk guy, that both is an orcish thing only, how it would feel right to a human use that? they trained with orcs? they made up the same techinique on their own? is just nonsensical as a new class entirelly.
    Same as above.

    there is tons of blademasters in the game who do not use wind-walk and mirror image, we can use then as basis and see that we indeed are playing then
    Which could mean that they are "blademasters" in title only, and not the actual "blademaster" we saw in Warcraft 3.
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  9. #6209
    A new class, never before seen but always needed.
    Chef, two dps specs and a healing spec. All using the mechanic of combining different spells (ingredients) to get a desired effect.

    Healing spec works with buffs that can change effect or change how certain damage works.
    One for spec based on poison damage (bad cooking)
    And one based on fire and melee.(grills and propane)

    The dps specs use mail and the healing uses cloth.
    The fantasy is the cooking trainers have all learned to fight in their own ways, their exposure to magic and the shady underworld of your factions capital have changed how they do business, they can protect their OWN interests.

    You go out into the world to prove yourself and bring back ingredients that no one thought possible.

  10. #6210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    He's not a trainer anymore, is he?
    people, even npcs retire.
    Anyways, just because he used to be a warrior trainer doesn't make him a warrior.
    it mean just that
    So.... does "some off-shots" count, or do not count? Because above you are counting the single "ex-trainer" blademaster NPC despite being what could be called "an off-shot", but here you are dismissing several off-shots as being "just off-shots".
    you want to invalidade the entire thing just because there is some unique individuais, that does not matter, Anduin is a priest with heavy armor and sword anyway, you cannot say he is not a priest because he is using other equipment, that also does ot mean priests do that, he is an offshot.

    But the blademaster who are tagged as warriors are not, because there is others, there is other npcs who also only use warrior skills and so on, its too much "data"

    Again: the "tagged as arms spec" can be explained as just being WoD's table way of adequating NPCs to player classes for a simpler and concise list. Need I remind you of all those "off-shots" you just dismissed?
    so the fact that landtressor and other blademasters using warrior-skills only does not count? tHe is tagged as "arms spec" because its what blademasters are.

    If the argument still holds up today, I can use it.
    nope, it don't, false equivalence.

    Then explain to me how can someone go invisible (not stealth, but invisible) without using magic. And on that same boat, do explain how one can create duplicates of themselves without using magic as well.
    First of all the flavor of wind walk is they goign to fast and apepar to be invisible, is not a real stelth in their fantasy/thematic, it is in the game for gameplay purposes:
    So adept and agile are the blademasters that they can move so quickly that they appear to be invisible to the naked eye
    How they do that? probably using their own inner power/energy, it is explained by bladestorm that they channel warrior energies:

    By focusing their warrior energies, blademasters can become living cyclones of fighting rage. Spinning their great blades faster than the naked eye can see, they are capable of simultaneously damaging any enemy troops in their vicinity
    not everything revolves around mana, and rage and "energy" used by rogues, monks are more or less the same thing.

    Learn to discern hyperbole.
    Learn how yo make an argument without restorting to that
    And again: just because the warrior class is "broad" it doesn't mean it encompasses all the warrior cultures. Especially since we consider that the warrior class, just like all the classes in the game-- broad or not-- is limited in what it can represent due to the way Blizzard designs the classes' specs. You don't get "blademaster" representation from any of the warrior specs, just like you don't get "dark ranger" representation from any of the hunter specs.
    Warrior class right now empasses all warrior cultures playable, its broad and every race can fit in, i didn't know i ahd to be specific on this, but im talking about be broad and encompass warrior cultures of wow races

    You do in fact,g et blademaster representation in the arms spect, not 100%, true, but is there, is a fact.

    The death knight is a class exclusive to an "enemy race" (the Scourge) and yet literally every member of both factions can make death knights. If Blizzard wants to make blademasters playable, they'll find a way to make the class available for both sides.
    that is totally different points with totally different scnearios, you are again making an extrapolation, is like making horde races priests of elune, it does not work.

    the class is already available for both races with warriors, they can save the time they would waste by simple giving more blademaster-ish features to arms, and they can seize the opportunity and give mroe mountain king-ish features to fury.

    Which could mean that they are "blademasters" in title only, and not the actual "blademaster" we saw in Warcraft 3.
    now they are not the "blademaster" the only blademasters are "those blademasters" that i arbitrary decided they are, yeah sure., new for you, blademaster is a title only, pretty much like far seer, spirit walker and etc.

  11. #6211
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Perhaps they could do something different - or try a different class for each faction. Just like in the past with priest abilities, which were faction and race-exclusive.

    The Alliance could probably get Wardens (it's been in the game for a long time), and they seem quite popular.
    The Horde could get something like Spellfencers (lots of nightborne NPCs in Suramar use spellswords), an interesting parallel to the Wardens.

    Perhaps they could remain locked to night elves and nightborne for one expansion or something, and then have them teach their skills to other races, or make them available to both faction eventually, after seeing how they're received?
    I doubt Blizzard would do something like Shaman/Paladin ever again. They removed the faction restriction exactly because they couldn't balance them without making them the same.
    They even removed the priest racial abilities, and the paladin faction abilities for the same reasons.
    So if we get something different for each faction in teh future, it will be in the form of cosmetic differences.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    4th spec is possible, but I think just as unlikely as it being its own class. We haven't even seen Dark Ranger added as a class or a spec, and the closest we've ever gotten are two items off Sylvanas. I have a feeling this is the extent that Blizzard is willing to bridge the concepts; just as mere homages rather than incorporating the full kit.
    Well, before Legion, you could say the same for DH with the Warglaives of Azzinoth and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras.
    So, still in the realm of possibility. If something, it makes it even more possible: it makes it seem that Blizzard is testing things to see how they work, and maybe use it in the future.
    It looks how they work since Legion: they put powers into temp things (Artifacts, HoA, etc) that they leter make baseline.
    Maybe some of the Covenant and Torghast powers can be reused for new specs/classes or replace current abilities.

  12. #6212
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it mean just that
    No, it doesn't. And we have precedent: after all, the first paladins were taught by priests and knights, not paladins. By your logic, a paladin can only be taught by a paladin, yet that is not what happened.

    you want to invalidade the entire thing just because there is some unique individuais, that does not matter, Anduin is a priest with heavy armor and sword anyway, you cannot say he is not a priest because he is using other equipment, that also does ot mean priests do that, he is an offshot.

    But the blademaster who are tagged as warriors are not, because there is others, there is other npcs who also only use warrior skills and so on, its too much "data"
    That is not data. Not in the way you're using it. By that logic we can also say there is "too much data" that indicates dark rangers are separate from hunters, and that bards are a valid and probable concept in WoW. Anyways, what I'm saying is my opinion is that the WoD mission table is unreliable because it uses player classes and specs to tag the followers not because they are of that exact class and spec, but because said class most closely resembles their concept. And, again, all the examples listed below.

    so the fact that landtressor and other blademasters using warrior-skills only does not count? tHe is tagged as "arms spec" because its what blademasters are.
    I'll repeat what I said before. Again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I have not found a single warrior trainer named or titled "blademaster". Also, what exactly to you mean by "tagging blademasters as arms warriors"? I don't think blizzard tags NPCs with "specializations" or even "classes". They just give them abilities that abilities that fit their concept, using abilities from classes when they are "close enough" (like giving Fireball to a tinker) or creating new ones when what they have are not good enough. Again, same link.
    And also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The mission tables don't exactly match what the characters' classes actually are. They are given "player classes" and "player specs" for ease of understanding and to make the list more concise, as far as I can tell. After all, we have some "Rangaris" being hunters, and others being rogues. And draenei cannot be rogues. And then we have robots without two-handed weapons who are "arms warriors". Then we have Arakkoa being druids despite their lore not exactly fitting the druid thematic. And then we have "fury warriors" wielding a single weapon.

    nope, it don't, false equivalence.
    You do know things don't work that way, right? Saying "you're wrong" and leaving at that as if it means anything... actually doesn't mean anything. You have to explain why you believe it's a "false equivalence".

    First of all the flavor of wind walk is they goign to fast and apepar to be invisible, is not a real stelth in their fantasy/thematic, it is in the game for gameplay purposes:

    How they do that? probably using their own inner power/energy, it is explained by bladestorm that they channel warrior energies:

    not everything revolves around mana, and rage and "energy" used by rogues, monks are more or less the same thing.
    I'll repeat what I said before: source your quotes. That said, I found this:
    "One of the blademasters' more mystical abilities is to create duplicate phantom images of themselves. Though the phantom images can move about freely of their own volition, they are not true entities unto themselves."
    So it's evidence that blademasters might use magic. And on top of that, some Blademasters have been shown to use fire magic.

    Warrior class right now empasses all warrior cultures playable, its broad and every race can fit in, i didn't know i ahd to be specific on this, but im talking about be broad and encompass warrior cultures of wow races

    You do in fact,g et blademaster representation in the arms spect, not 100%, true, but is there, is a fact.
    No, we don't. We really don't. Having one single ability from the WC3 unit and wielding one two-handed weapon like the WC3 unit sprite, while having none of the gameplay associated with it is not representing the concept. That's like saying the rogue "represents" the demon hunter because it has evasion, and can dual-wield Illidan's warglaives and wear his blindfold.

    that is totally different points with totally different scnearios, you are again making an extrapolation, is like making horde races priests of elune, it does not work.
    Again, saying "you're wrong" without explaining why you think I'm wrong does not work as a rebuttal. You have to explain why.

    the class is already available for both races with warriors,
    Arguably it isn't, as demonstrated several times.

    they can save the time they would waste by simple giving more blademaster-ish features to arms,
    And completely change the arms spec' concept of a slower, more methodical fighter to fit a concept more fit for the fury spec? The blademaster concept is one of an agile fighter. I mean, the blademaster's main stat in WC3 is agility, not strength.

    now they are not the "blademaster" the only blademasters are "those blademasters" that i arbitrary decided they are, yeah sure.
    I didn't say they aren't. I said maybe they are not.
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  13. #6213
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, it doesn't. And we have precedent: after all, the first paladins were taught by priests and knights, not paladins. By your logic, a paladin can only be taught by a paladin, yet that is not what happened.
    that is not a precedent, that was before wow time, and it was the creation of the class, you don't find priests training paladins, neither paladins training priests as npcs in world of warcraft.
    That is not data. Not in the way you're using it. By that logic we can also say there is "too much data" that indicates dark rangers are separate from hunters, and that bards are a valid and probable concept in WoW.
    both things are right.
    Anyways, what I'm saying is my opinion is that the WoD mission table is unreliable because it uses player classes and specs to tag the followers not because they are of that exact class and spec, but because said class most closely resembles their concept. And, again, all the examples listed below.

    And what if, it tag then like that, because is what they are?

    Of course Npcs can do some amusing things, like shamans and priests with plate, or a NPC being "two specs" but in the end, they can, mostly, be organized in the 3 specs, very few cannot

    I'll repeat what I said before: source your quotes.
    literally said it is the bladestorm ability.

    mystical abilities does not necessary mean magical in the context to use mana or arcane

    Blademasters in wow do not use "fire magic" they set their swords in fire and use oil to do so.


    No, we don't. We really don't. Having one single ability from the WC3 unit and wielding one two-handed weapon like the WC3 unit sprite, while having none of the gameplay associated with it is not representing the concept. That's like saying the rogue "represents" the demon hunter because it has evasion, and can dual-wield Illidan's warglaives and wear his blindfold.
    the concept of the blademaster, especially in wow, is being a legendary warrior who master the use of blade, going forward in the battlefield focusing on doing damage, that is their gameplay, that is their lore and fantasy.

    You cannot possibly copy the same gameplay of the RTS to wow, it was a different game with different purposes, it didn't happen with demon hunters neither with death knights, it will not start now

    Again, we see plenty of blademasters in wow-lifetime and they didn't use wild-walk and mirror image, meaning it is not something entirely necessary or crucial and you can play like that, period.
    Arguably it isn't, as demonstrated several times.
    It is, because blademasters can be blademasters without wind-walk and mirror image, like demonstred several times

    And completely change the arms spec' concept of a slower, more methodical fighter to fit a concept more fit for the fury spec? The blademaster concept is one of an agile fighter. I mean, the blademaster's main stat in WC3 is agility, not strength.
    arms spec never "slower and more methodical fighter" that shit only came up recently, together with being a "bleed" spec, before it was more close to the definition of blademaster doing fast and stronger hits

    And surprise for you, most of wow lifetime, at least for the time i played warriors, HASTE is almost always their main stats, agility friendo.

    So yeah, making the arms spec more blademaster-ish, would make wonders to the class in general, making the spec better and more enjoyable.

  14. #6214
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    so the fact that landtressor and other blademasters using warrior-skills only does not count? tHe is tagged as "arms spec" because its what blademasters are.
    So the issue here is that you're basing this on the Garrison Followers classification.

    Not sure if you have noticed, but all the Garrison Follower classifications boil down any NPC into one of the playable classes. It is not a *canonical* classification of all Blademaster NPC Characters being of the Warrior class. The problem is that the follower system doesn't actually have caveats to present any unique classes. Every NPC is just shoved into an existing class role. You can't have Wardens and Shadow Hunters and Dark Rangers; they're all boiled down to existing Player Class definitions like Rogue, Hunter and Warrior, because that's the way Garrison Followers were designed. They're given generic Class abilities, like Arms Warrior has Heroic Leaps and Cleave, but there's zero room for any unique class abilities like a Blademaster follower using Windwalk or a Dark Ranger follower using Black Arrow or Wailing Arrow, or a Shadow Hunter follower using Hex and Chain Heal. Every one of these NPCs, from simple quest givers to profession trainers, are classified as a type of Player Class that uses Player Class abilities.

    Dark Ranger Velonara and Shadow Hunter Rala are treated as Marksmanship Hunters. This isn't a canonical classification that all Dark Rangers and Shadow Hunters are just a type of Marksmanship Hunter. This is just how these characters happen to fit the Garrison Follower system that Blizzard designed. Every NPC is shoe-horned into one of the existing Player Class types. That's just how the system works, and it's a matter of game mechanics more than lore.

    Now, you CAN legitimately consider this to be a canonical representation that Lantresor the Blade is an Arms Warrior, however that is just one example of an NPC. This is not a full classification that all Blademasters are types of Arms Warriors just because Lantresor is, just like Shadow Hunter Rala being a Marksmanship Hunter doesn't mean all Shadow Hunters are Hunters. We know the Shaman class has Hex and Chain Heal which were Shadow Hunter abilities, and that Troll Hunters do not use Voodoo magic whereas Troll Shamans would. Vol'jin himself uses Shaman abilities, and no Marksmanship Hunter abilities, and he was the prime Shadow Hunter. Shadow Hunters have a closer connection to Shamans than they do to Marksmanship Hunter, and even then a Shadow Hunter is defined as its own concept and not exactly a Shaman or a Hunter.

    The Garrison Follower system is not something we can reliably define every Blademaster, Dark Ranger, and Shadow Hunter as. If you want to make a case that Lantresor is an Arms Warrior, then we can regard that to be true, but Lantresor is not *all Blademasters* in the game, just like Shadow Hunter Rala does not represent *all Shadow Hunters*.

    It is, because blademasters can be blademasters without wind-walk and mirror image, like demonstred several times
    Which is true for NPCs, but not if we're talking about a potential playable class that is called a Blademaster.

    Blizzard regards Artificer name for both Jewelcrafting and Engineering professions, but the Garrison followers are Warriors and Paladins. It doesn't mean all Artificers are Warriors and Paladins. It just means these two characters happen to be represented by these classes, because they *have* to fit one of the Player Classes due to the way the Garrison Follower system's design. Even Weldon Barov, the questgiver in Plaguelands, was classified as a Rogue even though he had nothing to do with the Rogue class prior to WoD. It's just a matter of game mechanics.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-27 at 05:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #6215
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So the issue here is that you're basing this on the Garrison Followers classification.
    no, im using that as one of the arguments, that is not the only one, is one of many, and you grabing that to isolate and nitpick is not going to dismiss the entire point.

  16. #6216
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    no, im using that as one of the arguments, that is not the only one, is one of many, and you grabing that to isolate and nitpick is not going to dismiss the entire point.
    I'm arguing against the system itself and how it mis-appropriates NPCs as any particular class due to the way it shoehorns everyone into the closest Player Class equivalent. Shadow Hunter Rala is just one example. Artificers is another.

    A system that sources Nat Pagle as a Hunter who uses Multi Shot and Disengage is not what I consider as a reliable source of canon. He is a fisherman NPC in the lore, not a Hunter who uses Hunter abilities.


    The Garrison Follower classification is the only source that outright lists any Blademaster in the game as an 'Arms Warrior'. Consider that your argument that Blademaster is an Arms Warrior circles back to this single source of information, as any Blademaster NPC outside of this that simply uses Warrior abilities isn't actually tied to any particular spec. I am willing to settle on the argument that a Blademaster is represented in WoW as a type of Warrior, but not that all Blademasters are Arms Warriors based on an unreliable source such as this.

    As I've pointed out, NPCs will use existing class abilities because that's how Blizzard treats any NPC. Shadow Hunters will use Hunter and Shaman abilities. Priestess of the Moon will use Hunter, Druid and Priest abilities. This is just how they treat NPC characters. If they had the resources to create 100% new abilities for each, they would, and we are seeing more of this happen in recent times like Dark Rangers using Shadowburn shots, Wailing Arrows and their own variation of Black Arrow, or Blademasters using Blade Dash and Molten Strike. This opens up the possibility that they could be their own concept, rather than just an offshoot of an existing class.

    As I said, it is absolutely ambiguous, because all the facts you're basing it on are unreliable. NPCs and Follower system are simply a result of game mechanics. Warrior Trainer title of an NPC is also unreliable, since Shadowlands has since taken it away from that character. We can't look at NPC game mechanics as a template for any Player class, the same way we can't look at the Engineering Profession and how NPC Engineering Vendors and Trainers are called Tinker as evidence that this is what a Tinker can only be.

    As a consistent argument, we should avoid this type of misappropriation for the purpose of discussingany and all potential classes. This isn't a matter of considering any of these as realistically becoming their own class. This is for the purpose so we can discuss a Bard class even though the only Bards in WoW are quest givers, or the purpose of discussing an Alchemist class, even though Alchemists are already covered by a profession. This is not a matter of arguing that these classes have a high possibility, just that there *is* a possibility and that it can be discussed.

    If you are someone who doesn't think they should be discussed at all, you can feel free to abstain from discussion. There's no reason to try and prove that they are unlikely since the information you're operating on relates only to Non-Player classes in the game, and nothing relating to the potential of a Player Class or the likelyhood of Blizzard choosing to stick to their NPC lore instead of outright retconning it.

    Just because there are many examples of Blademaster NPCs being connected to the Warrior class doesn't really prove anything. Blizzard has *never* stuck to NPC definitions as a hard rule for what defines a Player class.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-27 at 06:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #6217
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is not a precedent, that was before wow time, and it was the creation of the class, you don't find priests training paladins, neither paladins training priests as npcs in world of warcraft.
    Class design has nothing to do with lore. If you're claiming that "blademasters are warriors because blademasters teach warriors" then it's a lore issue. It has nothing to do with class design. And as a lore issue, we have lore examples of a "class" teaching a different "class".

    And what if, it tag then like that, because is what they are?
    "What if" for "what if", then "what if they're not"?

    Of course Npcs can do some amusing things, like shamans and priests with plate, or a NPC being "two specs" but in the end, they can, mostly, be organized in the 3 specs, very few cannot
    It's not about that. You're using the WoD's mission table to claim that Lantressor is an "arms warrior" because that is what the mission table says he is. But I've demonstrated that the mission table is not a reliable source of information regarding what a NPC class is because of all those you dismissed as "off-shots".

    literally said it is the bladestorm ability.
    Except that is not what it says in the WC3 website, nor WoWhead. I was ready to dismiss what you wrote as headcanon when I just happened to find it by pure accident while I was searching for Mirror Images in WoWPedia. Again: link your sources.

    mystical abilities does not necessary mean magical in the context to use mana or arcane

    Blademasters in wow do not use "fire magic" they set their swords in fire and use oil to do so.
    The tooltip of this ability used by this blademaster which I already linked before says: "Enchants the caster's weapon with molten fire, inflicting Fire damage on each melee attack." It says right there: "enchant". Not "coats the weapon in oil" or anything. It says, unambiguously, "enchants the weapon".

    the concept of the blademaster, especially in wow, is being a legendary warrior who master the use of blade, going forward in the battlefield focusing on doing damage, that is their gameplay, that is their lore and fantasy.
    Source for that claim, please?

    You cannot possibly copy the same gameplay of the RTS to wow, it was a different game with different purposes, it didn't happen with demon hunters neither with death knights, it will not start now
    We kinda can, though. Because if we make the blademaster an agile class (i.e. AGI main stat) using two-handed swords (and maybe axes) who wear leather (or maybe mail) who is a melee character with magic that allows them to go invisible or summon mirror images of themselves. And then we add in fire magic that could be used to enhance their blades, and we got ourselves a class that has all the opportunities to play vastly different than the warrior class.

    It is, because blademasters can be blademasters without wind-walk and mirror image, like demonstred several times
    You can't play as a blademaster without having the blademaster abilities. That's like saying you can play a demon hunter without having demon hunter abilities, in other words, just a rogue with the warglaives and the blindfold and done, you're a demon hunter.

    arms spec never "slower and more methodical fighter" that shit only came up recently, together with being a "bleed" spec, before it was more close to the definition of blademaster doing fast and stronger hits
    Arms was never a fast spec. Having gaps on their rotation because of rage starvation was a hallmark of the class that only recently has been fixed. And bleeds were never a trademark of the blademaster.

    So yeah, making the arms spec more blademaster-ish, would make wonders to the class in general, making the spec better and more enjoyable.
    In your personal opinion. In mine, it would just change the spec into something it is not.
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  18. #6218
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Well, before Legion, you could say the same for DH with the Warglaives of Azzinoth and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras.
    So, still in the realm of possibility. If something, it makes it even more possible: it makes it seem that Blizzard is testing things to see how they work, and maybe use it in the future.
    It looks how they work since Legion: they put powers into temp things (Artifacts, HoA, etc) that they leter make baseline.
    Maybe some of the Covenant and Torghast powers can be reused for new specs/classes or replace current abilities.
    I agree with this.

    We can see from the latest interview with Preach that they even went through iterations on Sylvanas' Bow powers:

    "Sylvanas's bow and unique drops are because she is a special boss fight.
    The initial unique bow ability was too hard to balance, and so it was changed to what it is right now."


    I can see them taking and modifying it to adapt to a class.

    Their statements about borrowed power also seem like they're interested in trying to balance it out and not just stick to any one system, so that is a good sign towards another class in the future.

    I do think that this may be too soon for a Dark Ranger to be considered though, considering DH came in years after Warglaives of Azzinoth and Cursed Vision were added to the game, and even years after Metamorphosis had been integrated into the Warlock. Only now are Hunters getting any real access to Sylvanas' unique powers, and I don't think we would see these abilities turned into class abilities for quite some time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #6219
    Something range, tired of them stacking more and more melee classes while also making melee the least desired.

  20. #6220
    new class: Gasser

    races: sporelings (alliance), orcs (red alliance)

    abilities: propel fumes out of various sacs to confuse, shroud, choke or harm enemies. healers can emit a cloud of healing vapors. Also have a menu of spits to deal single target damage. Lore home is Sporeggar.

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    "An Orc spit on me"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

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