1. #6341
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is just bullshit, mages got mirror iamge and they are fine, isn't like a huge deal
    The mage class has a completely different concept than the warrior class. The warrior class is about staying in the middle of the fray, and be "tanky" enough to be able to withstand the hits their opponents dish on them. The mage, in contrast, is about staying away from the middle of the fray, and are frail enough that they need ways to cancel or absorb damage.

    Wind walk can be just a sprint like ability that may or may not turn invisible for a short time
    The warrior class is not a "sprinter" type of character concept.

    the fact is that the playable blademaster lack his rts skills
    There is no playable blademaster class.

    your argument is based on the false premise that a blademaster is only a blademaster with two skills.
    Your attempt of "no u!" here is laughable. At no point he even alluded to this idea of "a blademaster is only a blademaster with two skills".

    What is a dark ranger? if dark ranger is the undead rangers who use necrotic and dark magic, then they are not playable

    and if you want to bait that intot he false comaprison of blademasters and warriros i suggest you to stop cause isn't going to work
    It's not a false equivalence, though. The blademaster concept is an agile fighter (something the warrior class is not), who engage in stealth (something the warrior does not) and trickery (something the warrior does not) and, if recent WoW depictions are anything to go by, they are also able to manipulate fire (something the warrior does not).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we were to poll this, I doubt the Blademaster would break double digits percentage wise.
    JavelinJoe never even mentioned polls or even made a claim about the blademaster concept being "very popular". He said "fans", not "many WoW fans" or "most WoW fans", so you bringing out your opinion of how the concept would fare in popularity polls is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-05-04 at 11:18 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  2. #6342
    I'm just going to say that I feel vindicated in saying dark rangers are literally just hunters and even Blizzard agrees by giving hunters access to Wailing Arrow through the bow that drops from Sylvanas in the next raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The mage class has a completely different concept than the warrior class. The warrior class is about staying in the middle of the fray, and be "tanky" enough to be able to withstand the hits their opponents dish on them. The mage, in contrast, is about staying away from the middle of the fray, and are frail enough that they need ways to cancel or absorb damage.


    The warrior class is not a "sprinter" type of character concept.


    There is no playable blademaster class.


    Your attempt of "no u!" here is laughable. At no point he even alluded to this idea of "a blademaster is only a blademaster with two skills".


    It's not a false equivalence, though. The blademaster concept is an agile fighter (something the warrior class is not), who engage in stealth (something the warrior does not) and trickery (something the warrior does not) and, if recent WoW depictions are anything to go by, they are also able to manipulate fire (something the warrior does not).

    - - - Updated - - -


    JavelinJoe never even mentioned polls or even made a claim about the blademaster concept being "very popular". He said "fans", not "many WoW fans" or "most WoW fans", so you bringing out your opinion of how the concept would fare in popularity polls is irrelevant.
    Uhhhhhh what? I can't find anything saying that Blademasters engage in stealth and trickery. Can I get a link?

  3. #6343
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,872
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm just going to say that I feel vindicated in saying dark rangers are literally just hunters and even Blizzard agrees by giving hunters access to Wailing Arrow through the bow that drops from Sylvanas in the next raid.
    Hunters get Withering Fire as well;

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments

  4. #6344
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Uhhhhhh what? I can't find anything saying that Blademasters engage in stealth and trickery. Can I get a link?
    The Wind Walk (Stealth) and Mirror Image (trickery) abilities of the Blademaster from Warcraft 3.

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/u...demaster.shtml

  5. #6345
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,437
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm just going to say that I feel vindicated in saying dark rangers are literally just hunters and even Blizzard agrees by giving hunters access to Wailing Arrow through the bow that drops from Sylvanas in the next raid.
    Just like rogues could get the Warglaives of Azzinoth and Illidan's blindfold, allowing them to sense demons, back in TBC? In other words, what the hunters are getting right now does not preclude the dark ranger concept from becoming a playable class in the future.

    Uhhhhhh what? I can't find anything saying that Blademasters engage in stealth and trickery. Can I get a link?
    "Stealth" and "trickery" are the concepts one extrapolates from the fact a blademaster can go invisible (stealth) and is able to summon illusory images of themselves to confuse enemies (trickery).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Hunters get Withering Fire as well;

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186439/...=6805#comments
    Why do those items count for "dark ranger" representation but engineer items don't count for "tinker" representation? Especially since those abilities will stop being used mid-way through 9.2's raid, as hunters will get a better bow and back piece.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  6. #6346
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Why do those items count for "dark ranger" representation but engineer items don't count for "tinker" representation? Especially since those abilities will stop being used mid-way through 9.2's raid, as hunters will get a better bow and back piece.
    Because those abilities are actual Dark Ranger abilities, while none of the Tinker's abilities exist in Engineering. If engineering had Rock-It turret, Grav-O Bomb 3000, or Robo Goblin, we could draw some level of comparison.

    As for those abilities stop being used in 9.2, that remains to be seen. Blizzard is already listing Wailing Arrow as a Hunter ability, so it isn't out of question for Wailing Arrow to become a Hunter ability without the bow in either in 9.2, or the next expansion.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=354831/wailing-arrow
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-05-05 at 12:46 AM.

  7. #6347
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because those abilities are actual Dark Ranger abilities, while none of the Tinker's abilities exist in Engineering. If engineering had Rock-It turret, Grav-O Bomb 3000, or Robo Goblin, we could draw some level of comparison.
    But we can. Engineers can create and ride mechs into combat. They have turrets. They have bombs. Etc.

    As for those abilities stop being used in 9.2, that remains to be seen. Blizzard is already listing Wailing Arrow as a Hunter ability, so it isn't out of question for Wailing Arrow to become a Hunter ability without the bow in either in 9.2, or the next expansion.

    https://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=354831/wailing-arrow
    Those abilities are tied to the items that Sylvanas drops. They're shown in the hunter spellbook because those are abilities that show on their spellbook as long as they're wielding those weapons, just like how it was with the artifact weapons back in Legion.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  8. #6348
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But we can. Engineers can create and ride mechs into combat. They have turrets. They have bombs. Etc.
    But none of those items are abilities from the Tinker, and those items are not designed to fulfill the needs of a class on any level. The Bow and Quiver abilities on the other hand do accomplish those needs, and does allow you to utilize Dark Ranger abilities while performing a class role.

    For example, you can't ride an engineering mech into combat to tank or DPS a dungeon or raid. You can't pilot an engineering mech to complete world quests. You can't pilot an engineering mech to fight in 99% of the game's content.

    Meanwhile, once you get that bow and quiver, you'll be able to use Withering Fire and Wailing Arrow in all content all the time. You'll be able to perform DPS in dungeons and raids and PvP. You'll be able to do world quests, etc.

    It's not remotely the same thing.


    Also saying we have turrets and bombs thus we have the relevant abilities because Turrets are turrets and bombs are bombs is like saying Hunters having arrows means that Wailing Arrow and Black Arrow doesn't matter because Arrows are just Arrows. The arrows in of themselves isn't what makes the concept, it's the type of arrows that makes the ability what it is. The same applies to turrets and bombs.

    Wildfire Bomb isn't Grav-O-Bomb. Just like Resonating Arrow isn't Wailing Arrow, and Rapid Fire isn't Withering Fire.

    Those abilities are tied to the items that Sylvanas drops. They're shown in the hunter spellbook because those are abilities that show on their spellbook as long as they're wielding those weapons, just like how it was with the artifact weapons back in Legion.
    That wasn't my point. My point is that Wailing Arrow is already being tied to the Hunter class, which gives credence to a high possibility that Wailing Arrow (and also Withering Fire) will eventually wind up in the Hunter class without Sylvanas' bow.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-05-05 at 01:23 AM.

  9. #6349
    Interesting its devolving back in to a debate about Tinkers after the mods said it has been forbidden in this thread.
    Last edited by datguy81; 2021-05-05 at 01:29 AM.

  10. #6350
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,872
    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    Interesting its devolving back in to a debate about Tinkers after the mods said it has been forbidden in this thread.
    It's not a debate about Tinkers. It's a compare and contrast between engineering not representing a class and Sylvanas' drops actually representing a class.

  11. #6351
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But none of those items are abilities from the Tinker,
    Tinkers don't throw bombs, drop turrets and fight in mechs?

    and those items are not designed to fulfill the needs of a class on any level. The Bow and Quiver abilities on the other hand do accomplish those needs, and does allow you to utilize Dark Ranger abilities while performing a class role.
    For all of one raid tier. Then they cannot be used anymore without taking a big hit to your DPS, and later down the line not even be able to kill a mob before they kill you which is one of your arguments against the engineering profession and what it represents.

    Meanwhile, once you get that bow and quiver, you'll be able to use Withering Fire and Wailing Arrow in all content all the time. You'll be able to perform DPS in dungeons and raids and PvP. You'll be able to do world quests, etc.

    It's not remotely the same thing.
    So you you consider a class "fully represented" even if your DPS is half of a low-geared healer's DPS, as long as you can use it in a dungeon, raid, PvP and world quests? Is that it?

    Also saying we have turrets and bombs thus we have the relevant abilities because Turrets are turrets and bombs are bombs is like saying Hunters having arrows means that Wailing Arrow and Black Arrow doesn't matter because Arrows are just Arrows. The arrows in of themselves isn't what makes the concept, it's the type of arrows that makes the ability what it is. The same applies to turrets and bombs.

    Wildfire Bomb isn't Grav-O-Bomb. Just like Resonating Arrow isn't Wailing Arrow, and Rapid Fire isn't Withering Fire.
    Not really. Wailing Arrow and Black Arrow are different concepts, and so are Rapid Fire and Withering Fire. Turrets, though, are the same concept. We're talking about stationary mechanical entities summoned by the player that attack the nearest enemy target. Which is what the engineer turrets do.

    That wasn't my point. My point is that Wailing Arrow is already being tied to the Hunter class, which gives credence to a high possibility that Wailing Arrow (and also Withering Fire) will eventually wind up in the Hunter class without Sylvanas' bow.
    They're "tied" to the hunter class because that is how Blizzard ties abilities from items such as Sylvanas' back piece. When an item has an effect that grants an ability to a specific class, the ability is "tied" to said class so it doesn't show for other classes that can also wield the item. It has nothing to do with "that means dark rangers are just hunters".
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  12. #6352
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Tinkers don't throw bombs, drop turrets and fight in mechs?
    Dark Rangers don't shoot arrows?

    For all of one raid tier. Then they cannot be used anymore without taking a big hit to your DPS, and later down the line not even be able to kill a mob before they kill you which is one of your arguments against the engineering profession and what it represents.
    A raid tier that's more than likely going to last until the latter part of this year, and even after that tier is over, you can still use that bow and quiver for content outside of raids. The rest is simply assumption, because there's a chance that Blizzard will make Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire Hunter abilities without the equip.

    Also the idea that you can't down a non-elite mob with a legendary weapon within the expansion of its debut is laughable.

    So you you consider a class "fully represented" even if your DPS is half of a low-geared healer's DPS, as long as you can use it in a dungeon, raid, PvP and world quests? Is that it?
    Considering that the bow is a legendary weapon, I seriously doubt your DPS will be that low even in 9.2. You're also assuming that Blizzard simply won't make Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire standard Hunter abilities.

    In the end, the point is that in 9.1, Withering Fire and Wailing Arrow are viable Hunter abilities.


    Not really. Wailing Arrow and Black Arrow are different concepts, and so are Rapid Fire and Withering Fire. Turrets, though, are the same concept. We're talking about stationary mechanical entities summoned by the player that attack the nearest enemy target. Which is what the engineer turrets do.
    Not really. Flame Turret only has an 8 yd range and works like old Shaman fire nova, while Rocket-It turret fires rockets at 25yds and is potentially upgradeable. Those are two different concepts.

    What about bombs? Grav-O Bomb is conceptually different than Wildfire Bomb and Smoke Bomb. Every turret and bomb are not the same just like every arrow isn't the same.

    The problem for the Dark Ranger concept is that there's already a class that can utilize magical arrows, including Shadow-based arrows. Thus it's no surprise that that class repeatedly gets its abilities and concepts.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-05-05 at 02:25 AM.

  13. #6353
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    12,668
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Let's just cut to the chase. I didn't "make up" the playstyle and focus of the Blademaster. He is based on sneaking and trickery because fully two thirds of his active abilities do just that. This isn't just my interpretation. It's exactly how the unit is designed. His abilities do just that. Whether you think they are important or not is utterly irrelevant. That's what the unit is.
    >Literally just showed how you play with a Blademaster
    >proceed to ignore everything, put the fingers and your eears and keep saying how he is a sneaky trickster
    >proceed to say im hand waving things

    Armor? Doesn't matter.
    Primary stat? Doesn't matter.
    Missing abilities? Don't matter.
    Playstyle? Exactly the same so long as you ignore 2/3 of their abilities.
    Like i said, you made up the armor argument, blademaser armor value is of a heavy armor unit, primary stat is just to show the status gain, in the lv progression, and his agility and Strength are most equal it have no impact overall if it was STr over agility in the scree,, playstyle is the same, missing abilities is a thing that can be fixed without the need of a new class
    What else is there to say here? You're being wilfully ignorant and/or intellectually dishonest just to avoid admitting you're wrong.
    Are you describing yourself? you are literally ignoring everything, making up shit to fit your caricature of a blademaster and getting mad ythat ou are showed otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The mage class has a completely different concept than the warrior class. The warrior class is about staying in the middle of the fray, and be "tanky" enough to be able to withstand the hits their opponents dish on them.
    and with the mirror image he can do that even better, gladly we agree.

    Besides, isn't like they can add and expand on a spec concept, yeah, especially when arms spec literally to be about mobility and powerful strikes, isn't like they didn't do that with survival hunter more drastically, at all
    The warrior class is not a "sprinter" type of character concept.
    it sure it is, the dash ability is literally a sprint into the enemy and the arms spec is about mobility
    There is no playable blademaster class.
    there is the warrior class, who is a blademaster
    Your attempt of "no u!" here is laughable. At no point he even alluded to this idea of "a blademaster is only a blademaster with two skills".
    "if the warrior class does not have those two skills, warrior class is no blademaster" is literally the point of everyone else, and already showed that is wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Uhhhhhh what? I can't find anything saying that Blademasters engage in stealth and trickery. Can I get a link?
    Because is a flat out lie in an attempt to say they are something they aren't.

    They think it because in the middle of the combat, he cast some images, he is a "trickster", despite mages doing that and not being "tricksters", besids being easy to target the ilusions, and the wind walk, who is more of a sprint ability, giving bonus movement, they are saying he is a rogue like sneaky character

    If anyone had the decency to read about then and their lore will know Blademaster are honorable warriors who go head on into the fray and their marital expertise/prowess with their blade is what define then, the skills are tools to do that, their concept is not to be a "sneaky trickster"

    I even showed a video of a pro-player playing with Blademaster, and how they work, literally a warrior.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-05-05 at 02:26 AM.

  14. #6354
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    They think it because in the middle of the combat, he cast some images, he is a "trickster", despite mages doing that and not being "tricksters", besids being easy to target the ilusions, and the wind walk, who is more of a sprint ability, giving bonus movement, they are saying he is a rogue like sneaky character
    Maybe mages just make better blademasters than warriors do?

    Mages:
    Invisibility (Wind Walk)? Check
    Mirror Image? Check
    Cloth armor/unarmored? Check
    Can use swords? Check

    Warriors:
    Bladestorm? Check
    Can use swords? Check

    That's 4 to 2 in favor of mages. I guess we can confidently say that blademasters are mages from now on.

  15. #6355
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    The Wind Walk (Stealth) and Mirror Image (trickery) abilities of the Blademaster from Warcraft 3.

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/u...demaster.shtml
    It's been years since I've played WC3 so I forgot that Windwalk had a stealth mechanic.

  16. #6356
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    EDIT SNIP
    You know what, I'm done. Continue this conversation with others if you want but I refuse to keep slamming my head against the wall hoping for an actual conversation and debate.
    Last edited by jellmoo; 2021-05-05 at 04:59 AM.

  17. #6357
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Just like rogues could get the Warglaives of Azzinoth and Illidan's blindfold, allowing them to sense demons, back in TBC? In other words, what the hunters are getting right now does not preclude the dark ranger concept from becoming a playable class in the future.


    "Stealth" and "trickery" are the concepts one extrapolates from the fact a blademaster can go invisible (stealth) and is able to summon illusory images of themselves to confuse enemies (trickery).

    - - - Updated - - -


    Why do those items count for "dark ranger" representation but engineer items don't count for "tinker" representation? Especially since those abilities will stop being used mid-way through 9.2's raid, as hunters will get a better bow and back piece.
    Warglaives of Azzinoth and the blindfold didn't give them a brand new spell. The blindfold gave them a small magical ability and the warglaives just increased haste an attack power. Not even remotely comparable to what the new bow is doing.

  18. #6358
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and with the mirror image he can do that even better, gladly we agree.
    Please don't try to be cute. I never agreed with you. And as long as you keep stating your personal opinion as objective fact, I never will. The mirror image concept goes against the warrior concept because it's an ability that avoids damage, not mitigate it.

    Besides, isn't like they can add and expand on a spec concept,
    Except it wouldn't be "expanding", but actually "completely reworking it". It would be akin to what happened to the hunter's survival spec in Legion in terms of scope.

    it sure it is, the dash ability is literally a sprint into the enemy and the arms spec is about mobility
    The Arms spec is not about mobility. And the only "dash" that the warrior class has is a charge toward the enemy, not away from the enemy. And the warrior charge does not make him invisible.

    there is the warrior class, who is a blademaster
    The warrior class does not represent the blademaster concept. The warrior class does not have the gameplay one would expect from a class based off the Blademaster unit in Warcraft 3.

    "if the warrior class does not have those two skills, warrior class is no blademaster" is literally the point of everyone else, and already showed that is wrong.
    It's no one's point. We are pointing at those two abilities because they represent the gameplay one would expect out of a class that can go stealth and confuse/trick enemies.

    Because is a flat out lie in an attempt to say they are something they aren't.

    They think it because in the middle of the combat, he cast some images, he is a "trickster", despite mages doing that and not being "tricksters", besids being easy to target the ilusions, and the wind walk, who is more of a sprint ability, giving bonus movement, they are saying he is a rogue like sneaky character

    If anyone had the decency to read about then and their lore will know Blademaster are honorable warriors who go head on into the fray and their marital expertise/prowess with their blade is what define then, the skills are tools to do that, their concept is not to be a "sneaky trickster"

    I even showed a video of a pro-player playing with Blademaster, and how they work, literally a warrior.
    Description of Mirror Images in the Warcraft 3 page:

    "Mirror Image is a very effective spell because it breaks target lock and creates a duplicate of the Blademaster. Enemy players are often unable to tell which is the real Blademaster.

    The Blademaster can concentrate and create alternate illusions of himself. The player can discern the illusions graphically, but opposing players see an exact duplicate. The illusions have the same hit points as the Blademaster, but no special abilities. Illusions can attack, but do no damage. When attacked, the Illusion takes double damage.

    Each casting dispels your previous images. Mirror Images are created at "current" hit points, to make it more difficult to detect the images. Mirror Images appear to level when the parent Blademaster levels. Mirror Images appear to get Critical hits.

    Mirror Image can help the Blademaster become unstuck when he has become trapped by Entangling Roots or Ensnare. If you are rooted, use Mirror Image to break free. This can also be used when the Blademaster has been trapped by enemy units surrounding him."


    Wow. The mirror image ability really was not used nor intended to trick the enemy at all... (this was sarcasm, btw)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Warglaives of Azzinoth and the blindfold didn't give them a brand new spell. The blindfold gave them a small magical ability and the warglaives just increased haste an attack power. Not even remotely comparable to what the new bow is doing.
    It technically is comparable because it gives the class new abilities, even if they're just passives instead of active abilities, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Dark Rangers don't shoot arrows?
    So what? Are you going to next claim that Crusader and Mortal Strike are the same because both are weapon swings?

    A raid tier that's more than likely going to last until the latter part of this year, and even after that tier is over, you can still use that bow and quiver for content outside of raids.
    And eventually not be able to do even that properly, as your damage would be way too low since it's a weapon from previous expansions.

    The rest is simply assumption, because there's a chance that Blizzard will make Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire Hunter abilities without the equip.
    Except we're talking about the abilities given by those items, not what Blizzard may or may not eventually give to the hunters in the future.

    Also the idea that you can't down a non-elite mob with a legendary weapon within the expansion of its debut is laughable.
    Which I never claimed so I fail to see the reason to make that comment.

    Considering that the bow is a legendary weapon, I seriously doubt your DPS will be that low even in 9.2.
    What about 9.3? 10.0? 10.2? 11.0?

    You're also assuming that Blizzard simply won't make Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire standard Hunter abilities.
    Because we have no guarantees whatsoever that they will.

    In the end, the point is that in 9.1, Withering Fire and Wailing Arrow are viable Hunter abilities.
    And that is irrelevant. Items that will last one raid tier, maybe two, does not mean "the dark ranger concept is represented therefore does not need to be its own playable class". By that reasoning, the demon hunter concept was already represented back in TBC, therefore it doesn't need to be its own class. Oh, wait, we have an actual demon hunter playable class.

    Not really. Flame Turret only has an 8 yd range and works like old Shaman fire nova, while Rocket-It turret fires rockets at 25yds and is potentially upgradeable. Those are two different concepts.
    20 yard range. And this whole "upgradable" thing is just your headcanon. You're literally making up differences. By that reasoning, I can say that my necromancer class "summon skeleton" is different than the DK's "raise dead" because mine summons a skeleton that attacks in melee with their bony fists, but can be upgraded to attack at range with bone lances.

    The problem for the Dark Ranger concept is that there's already a class that can utilize magical arrows, including Shadow-based arrows.
    The hunter arrows can be explained as just being special ammunition, not actual magic. And they can no longer use shadow-based arrows. Remember that covenants don't count since you already dismissed them when we pointed out paladins can use shadow magic through covenants.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-05-05 at 03:43 AM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  19. #6359
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Please don't try to be cute. I never agreed with you. And as long as you keep stating your personal opinion as objective fact, I never will. The mirror image concept goes against the warrior concept because it's an ability that avoids damage, not mitigate it.


    Except it wouldn't be "expanding", but actually "completely reworking it". It would be akin to what happened to the hunter's survival spec in Legion in terms of scope.


    The Arms spec is not about mobility. And the only "dash" that the warrior class has is a charge toward the enemy, not away from the enemy. And the warrior charge does not make him invisible.


    The warrior class does not represent the blademaster concept. The warrior class does not have the gameplay one would expect from a class based off the Blademaster unit in Warcraft 3.


    It's no one's point. We are pointing at those two abilities because they represent the gameplay one would expect out of a class that can go stealth and confuse/trick enemies.


    Description of Mirror Images in the Warcraft 3 page:

    "Mirror Image is a very effective spell because it breaks target lock and creates a duplicate of the Blademaster. Enemy players are often unable to tell which is the real Blademaster.

    The Blademaster can concentrate and create alternate illusions of himself. The player can discern the illusions graphically, but opposing players see an exact duplicate. The illusions have the same hit points as the Blademaster, but no special abilities. Illusions can attack, but do no damage. When attacked, the Illusion takes double damage.

    Each casting dispels your previous images. Mirror Images are created at "current" hit points, to make it more difficult to detect the images. Mirror Images appear to level when the parent Blademaster levels. Mirror Images appear to get Critical hits.

    Mirror Image can help the Blademaster become unstuck when he has become trapped by Entangling Roots or Ensnare. If you are rooted, use Mirror Image to break free. This can also be used when the Blademaster has been trapped by enemy units surrounding him."


    Wow. The mirror image ability really was not used nor intended to trick the enemy at all... (this was sarcasm, btw)

    - - - Updated - - -


    It technically is comparable because it gives the class new abilities, even if they're just passives instead of active abilities, though.

    - - - Updated - - -


    So what? Are you going to next claim that Crusader and Mortal Strike are the same because both are weapon swings?


    And eventually not be able to do even that properly, as your damage would be way too low since it's a weapon from previous expansions.


    Except we're talking about the abilities given by those items, not what Blizzard may or may not eventually give to the hunters in the future.


    Which I never claimed so I fail to see the reason to make that comment.


    What about 9.3? 10.0? 10.2? 11.0?


    Because we have no guarantees whatsoever that they will.


    And that is irrelevant. Items that will last one raid tier, maybe two, does not mean "the dark ranger concept is represented therefore does not need to be its own playable class". By that reasoning, the demon hunter concept was already represented back in TBC, therefore it doesn't need to be its own class. Oh, wait, we have an actual demon hunter playable class.


    20 yard range. And this whole "upgradable" thing is just your headcanon. You're literally making up differences. By that reasoning, I can say that my necromancer class "summon skeleton" is different than the DK's "raise dead" because mine summons a skeleton that attacks in melee with their bony fists, but can be upgraded to attack at range with bone lances.


    The hunter arrows can be explained as just being special ammunition, not actual magic. And they can no longer use shadow-based arrows. Remember that covenants don't count since you already dismissed them when we pointed out paladins can use shadow magic through covenants.
    Lol no. It's not comparable AT ALL. Not even close. A haste proc and an attack power boost against one creature type isn't a new class ability. An item that pretty much amounts to a toy for all it's useful for is also not a class ability. Wailing Arrow, on the other hand, is giving hunters an entirely new spell. It's not a proc or anything. It can actively go on your hotbar. And since Wailing Arrow was one of your big reasons for saying dark ranger should be a class, it now solidifies that dark rangers are nothing more than undead hunters.

  20. #6360
    At this point I think they really need to focus on more specs than classes.

    Either way, we need another Ranged Spec (class). Every new class has been Melee DPS / Tank with Monks including a Healing spec.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •