1. #6401
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What is personal, subjective and undeniably not a fact is your undeniably personal and subjective interpretation of said facts. Again, the WoD table argument is flawed. The NPC tag argument is flawed. Every single piece of argument that you have brought to the table has been shown to be flawed, that they're not conclusive evidence to your claims.
    you mean is showed to be flawed by your undeniably personal and subjective interpretation of said facts?

    You not liking the arguments, don't mean they are not relevant or conclusive, you just are adept of the absolutist fallacy, not even by bliz showing a blademaster as arms warrior in their warrior class preview is enough and you always keep finding a way to dismiss those things, while, going the other way around for tinker, is imensely funny the double standarts that you use
    Except it is. And even your own quote that confirms that blademasters are the master of stealth and deception point to that.
    Nope, there is no deception on it, they are master of "stealth and guile" wich is translated to cunning, not deception, and "stealth" is again confronted by their own description as honorable warriots and by their, confronted by their role in the lore and by the skill itself saying is not real invisibility just going too fast

    You saying "that is just our opinion" is one of the most laughably dumb statements in this thread, considering you constantly state your own opinion as facts here, despite almost every single other poster in this thread pointing that out to you.
    every time i said something i bring a canon piece of evidence, and you see that, form your own opinion and try to confront the piece of evidence by your interpretation and assumption, often relying onf fallacies, we are being backing forth with you doing that all the time

    No, you're actually just mocking it. The way the ability works in the WC3 (images that deal no damage and take double damage) work perfectly as-is in WoW. If anything, it could use a buff, not a nerf.
    there is no mocking, this is again, another of your own assumptions based on a strawman because is aid "for giggles", i said it could be 2 isntead of 3 for a better balance standpoint and not get too much OP in what i believe would be enough, and that is indeed my opinion, 2 rather than 3
    Except invisibility is the defining trait of the ability. That's like saying metamorphosis doesn't have to transform the demon hunter into a demon
    .
    First of all Once again, this is your own assumption, invisibility was not the defining trait, the mobility and bonus movement was, if the ability didn't make then invisible it would still be used in the same playstyle like showed in the video, as a scout, escape and mobiltiy tool, again, the video ltierally showed the blademaster playstyle, yet people are ignoring and youa re saying is flawled because you don't like it

    Second, Avatardefinint trait is the spell immunity, see how it is in wow, so once again, you are wrong by thinking they cannot adapt things tot he mmo for a balance standpoint, spell immunity on a warrior would be OP, they nerfed, they can do the same with wind walk, saying they can't is being obtusely wrong. Hell even metamorphosis was changed an the defining trait it was own you gained a ranged property and it don't doa nymore, so please, save tis purist talk of how they can't change abilities for someone else

    You're making my point for me: the warrior is moving back into the fray and only jumped back to use charge to get rage.
    Exactly like blademasters do? run away from the fight->heal, come back, this is ltierally what a blademaster did in the RTS with potions and is how warriros do in wow with second wind LMAO, try to play then for once.
    No, they want to play the blademaster concept that is shown in those games. Especially the one in Warcraft 3, which is the canon one. The agile fighter who uses speed and trickery fight his enemies.
    Nope, they do not want that, since blademasters are not "trickery" based, they want a caricature of a blademaster, especially from other games, into wow

    I've literally explained, several times, how the two concepts don't fit the warrior concepts, and all you do is say "you're wrong". You have never explained how stealth/invisibility and creating illusory images of themselves would fit the warrior class.
    You do not know the warrior concept buddy, you do not even play warrior, you literally ahve being wrong about the class back in forth just like the other guys aying warriors are the slowst class in the game, Blademaster are leirally one of the concepts of warriors, master of 2h weapons who sue mobility, pricse anddevastating atacks, that is the definition of a blademaster and of a arms warrior. Ivisiblity and ilussory iamges are not "concepts" theya re tools, and skills, of the blademaster, who can be added to warrior, because theya re tools, not definint traits that will amke warriros something else.

    Wrong. Blademasters are more "guerrilla" style of fighting. They're way more akin to rogues than warriors in terms of playstyle.
    Blademaster are not akin tor ogues, stop saying that, their entire thing is based around being honorable fighters, and guerrilla style of fighting is literally a style played by warriors, is literally something used in BGs as well warfare inr eal world, lol, do you even played a BG as warrior in your life?

    You do know that you fight loads of blademasters in Nagrand in WoD, right? Hell, the scenery on that screenshot? It is Nagrand.
    And they showed how blademasters are arms warriors, since they are talking about the arms spec in legion.

    The armor used is player set, the banner? a toy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The demon hunter has one less point of armor than the blademaster in the RTS... and they're shown to be armorless.
    we should demand a new class in wow just like the demon hunter from the RTS using heavy armor and metamorphosis, attacking in raged and not having a tank spec, you are right, because things don't and can't change we need a complete print of the RTS

    Sounds stupid? so it is to demand a new class because in the RTS they didn't use shirt.

    The blademaster is literally described as a "sneaky trickster" in the lore,
    you ahve to check what "literally" means, cause "guile" does not, literally, mean "trickster" and having stealth does not, literally, mean "sneaky", and once again cherrypicking things fogeting everything else said
    It doesn't have to be "just a transmog". It allows for cultural references and sources for further inspiration for the class.
    Which is not from the class but from the race, orcish, therefore, it can be used with transmog
    The amount of projection here is actually hilarious. And yes, you are, and always will be "advanced wrong" as long as you continue to post your own personal opinions and subjective interpretations as facts.
    Like i said hubris and vanity
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-05-05 at 10:38 PM.

  2. #6402
    Hot take but playable classes aren't canon, so whether or not we 'already have' Blademasters or Necromancers or whatever is a pointless comparison because the gameplay classes aren't canon. They are just gameplay mechanics, and deliberately generic due to the fact that there's like 22 race options in the game. Whether an ability belongs to one class or another is as malleable as the lore in this game is, and you have to account for the fact that Mechagnomes and Vulpera are going to be those characters too.

    Instead of adding new classes to fail to balance, they should just rename Arms Warrior into Blademaster and give them some Samuro abilities from HOTS. Arms Warrior is a thematic void as it stands now, it has zero character. At least as a de-facto Samurai Swordsman class it will be interesting.

    If we still had Combat Rogue we'd have threads today begging for a Swashbuckler/Pirate class and people would be like 'but we already have Combat Rogue' and others would be like 'nuh uh Combat and Swashbuckler are completely different!!!'

  3. #6403
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    Syegfryed isn't just wrong mate.

    In fact, this isn't your average everday wrong. This is Advanced Wrong.
    I dunno man, when I'm in a debate and I find myself alone on one side, with literally everyone else disagreeing with me and offering a different point of view, I at least stop, rethink my position, and check to see if maybe I was mistaken.

    That's just me though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Hot take but playable classes aren't canon, so whether or not we 'already have' Blademasters or Necromancers or whatever is a pointless comparison because the gameplay classes aren't canon. They are just gameplay mechanics, and deliberately generic due to the fact that there's like 22 race options in the game. Whether an ability belongs to one class or another is as malleable as the lore in this game is, and you have to account for the fact that Mechagnomes and Vulpera are going to be those characters too.

    Instead of adding new classes to fail to balance, they should just rename Arms Warrior into Blademaster and give them some Samuro abilities from HOTS. Arms Warrior is a thematic void as it stands now, it has zero character. At least as a de-facto Samurai Swordsman class it will be interesting.

    If we still had Combat Rogue we'd have threads today begging for a Swashbuckler/Pirate class and people would be like 'but we already have Combat Rogue' and others would be like 'nuh uh Combat and Swashbuckler are completely different!!!'

    I honestly think that something like Class Skins would help a ton getting character concepts and archetypes off the ground and at least playable in some form. It's not perfect, but it would be a lot easier to balance and more of them could be added at a single time.

  4. #6404
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I dunno man, when I'm in a debate and I find myself alone on one side, with literally everyone else disagreeing with me and offering a different point of view, I at least stop, rethink my position, and check to see if maybe I was mistaken.

    That's just me though.
    It's just the classical wrong-way driver effect. It happens.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  5. #6405
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Just gonna quickly jump in as a zombie fan. This largely depends on the type of zombie we're talking about.


    • Old School Haitian Zombie: Would still need food since they are technically still alive. Wouldn't need to be flesh specifically though.
    • Classic Romero Zombies (like Night of the Living Dead or even The Walking Dead): Don't need to eat, they simply do it out of instinct.
    • "Infected" style Zombies (like 28 Days Later): Would need to eat flesh since they are still alive.
    • Return of the Living Dead Zombies: A special category as they are only interested in eating brains to dull the pain of being dead.
    Cannibalize
    Forsaken racial
    5 yd range
    2 min cooldown
    Channeled
    When activated, regenerates 7% of total health and mana every 2 sec for 10 sec. Only works on Humanoid or Undead corpses within 5 yds. Any movement, action, or damage taken while Cannibalizing will cancel the effect.

    This ability is similar to that of ghouls, ravenous undead cannibals who could regenerate their wounds by eating the flesh of fallen warriors.

    RPG:
    Forsaken are undead, and thus are unable to heal without magical aid. Studying ghouls and abominations, some Forsaken mimic their ability to devour flesh to restore their own. Historically, trolls are cannibals, and have learned to consume flesh to accelerate their own healing. Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act. A cannibalized corpse is befouled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not really. The WC3 form was given to the warlock. The havoc demon hunter form is a completely new one.
    No, it's not. It is based on the Warcraft III (see: Reforged model and Illidan vs Arthas old cinematic).

    And the vengeance DH was also inspired on Illidan. Blizzard just decided to make the two demon forms look different to visually distinguish both specs.
    No, it wasn't. Not in WC3 nor in HotS.

    If you're not willing to do the legwork for your own claims, then don't demand others to do it for you, and don't blame them for not believing you.

    [mention="Profile ID number"]"Profile name"[/mention]

    You'll find your profile ID number on the profile's link. It's the number before the name.
    FFS. Can you do that to Triceron?

    Which have not been demonstrated to be any different than vanilla classes in terms of choosing what goes in, what goes out, and design-wise. Because Blizzard has revealed next to nothing about how they pick and design classes to make any sort of informed decision.
    I can't say anything about their vanilla class choices. Yet, i can see a pattern in their expansion ones.

    How do you know it was never considered? Do you have special insight to Blizzard's class design processes that no one else has?
    Because they didn't mention that when asked. They said they considered it for TBC because of Illidan.

    How do you know it doesn't make it eligible? I'll remind you that the runemaster concept almost became the class of choice for Wrath of the Lich king, and has even less to do with the expansion theme than demon hunters. And Runemasters don't have Warcraft 3 units, basic or otherwise.
    Because every class added matched its expansion:
    WotLK - Death Knight
    MoP - Monk
    Legion - Demon Hunter

    Maybe because what you guys say are requirements for class creation (match expansion theme, WC3 unit required, etc etc) are just your own guesses and not actual fact?
    Look at what i pointed above.
    Wouldn't make much sense to add a Tinker in a Pandaren centered expansion, for example.

    Why don't you first prove there is a list, in the first place? Then we'll talk.
    Already did with the Demon Hunter.

    And how do you plan on "figuring out which are """legitimate""" and which are not", considering we have next to zero insight on what Blizzard really requires for a class concept to be accepted as viable? We know for sure it's not "warcraft 3 unit" or "match expansion theme" thanks to the runemaster.
    Class additions (not considerations).

    Nah. If Blizzard ever adds necromancer, they could give them an ability to temporarily turn into liches. Other than that, mages have the ability to turn into skeletal mages with the Necrolord covenant.


    You didn't address my confusion.
    A certain archetype being integrated into a class doesn't mean there won't be NPC characters of them.

    Here's a mind-blower: I don't know. But I don't go around making a claim that cannot be proven, like this idea of "there is a list".
    They, literally, considered it for TBC and then added it when the time was right - in Legion. That's called a waiting list.

    ... And where is the link to this so-called "WoWpedia page"?
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Run...yable_class.3F

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Nec...tes_and_trivia

    And on that same token, there is no real reason why they should. "Just because other mythological races already exist as playable races" is not exactly a compelling argument.
    Do you want more of the same?
    Or, are you against new races as a whole?
    It's not much of an argument, but their models are.

    And do you see this thing about the undead being made important in their description? No, it's just a side note. Whereas for the venthyr, it's front and center, to the point that it's used as a punishment for those who went against Sire Denathrius' rule.
    What are you talking about?
    It was, literally, a front and center aspect since the days of WC2:

    Exorcism
    "Calling upon the forces of light and purity, the Paladin is able to dispel the walking dead that plague the lands of Azeroth. Exorcism can be used to cause injury to entire groups of these undead terrors, or to utterly eradicate a lone creature. These creatures of Hades seem to gain strength in numbers, thus the greater number of undead that are exorcised within a group, the less actual damage each undead will take. This act is extremely taxing upon the Paladin, making it necessary for him to observe a period of rest before once again invoking this great power."

    Holy Light
    A holy light that can heal a friendly living unit or damage an enemy undead unit.

    Holy Wrath
    Sends bolts of holy power in all directions, causing 490 to 576 Holy damage to all Undead and Demon targets within 20 yds.

    Turn Evil
    The power of the Light compels an Undead, Aberration, or Demon target to flee for up to 40 sec. Damage may break the effect. Only one target can be turned at a time.

    Wake of Ashes
    Lash out with the Ashbringer, dealing (650% of attack power) Radiant damage to all enemies within 12 yd in front of you, and reducing movement speed by 50% for 6 sec.

    Demon and Undead enemies are stunned for 6 sec if struck by the Wake of Ashes.

    Point me to the quote where that is stated, please?
    "This ability is similar to that of ghouls, ravenous undead cannibals who could regenerate their wounds by eating the flesh of fallen warriors."

    Except the video links you showed me, of Diablo 3, show that Tyrael lost all his angelic powers and became just a simple human. Hence me saying "oh, just a human?" because he lost all that made him different from a human.
    Not the second one.
    He became the Archangel of Wisdom, while still being a mortal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    "the truth" is what we see in the game, in wow and in the lore, nothing subjective on that
    Not, it isn't. Things change in game.

    they have more skills that do not appear in the RTS, like image tranmission and other talents such Way of Illusion and Kawarimi, oh wait, i forgot you said yourself you didn't play hots
    Image transmission, literally, expands on the Mirror Image ability. Way of Illusion and Kawarimi are just passive talents.

    that is not the class concept of the blademaster either, so everything works out
    He is agile. You can't say that he isn't.

    That is, of course, your opinion on that matter, and rly far from the truth
    Compared to the more agile classes, it is.

    No, im downplaying the ability to fit the mmo style.
    Nothing excludes the ability from being in the MMO. It exists in the mage.

    No, it dos not have, since Avatar does not grant spell immunity, neither metamorphosis is a ranged spell, if invisibility is not the core concept of the ability, and it was the movement sprint like ability, that is what should be focused
    It turns you into stone. That's what matters.


    Just like turning you invisible is what matters. Not the bonuses.


    Heroic leap and charging back in your ally, try to play the class before
    You might use it for that, but that's not what it is intended for. Heroic Leap is made to close gaps and Intervene to protect an ally. Nothing evasive about them.

    People apaprently want to play heroes of the storm or another game, the blademaster concept and playstyle is the same as of the current warrior, already showed with a video of a guy playing blademaster in RTS, by putting the two skills into the game would simple kill out this argument that it don't
    No, we want the Blademaster, which is portrayed in HotS better than WC3. We don't give a damn if it doesn't play, exactly, like that iteration.
    Showing a person playing the unit is nothing but personal perspective.

    That is, again, your opinion, since is completely untrue, saying they have different concepts is showing you literally, don't know both concepts, and assume withe the little you know
    They are. Because the Warrior does not embody the Samurai and never will. Assuming it will get stealth or duplicates abilities is ridiculous.

    Exactly like blademasters
    How, when they utilize Images to trick the target and become invisible to avoid detection?

    More of the rogue playstyle? who said that? ah yes, that is your assumption based on nothing but your bias, since you know, we already saw their playstyle in the RTS and their lore across wow, and ahve nothing to do with rogues but with warriors.
    There's truth to it. The Rogue possesses Stealth, Shadowy Clone and Killing Spree. Things that are very similar to the Blademaster in concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    in a MOBA, who does nto work in a mmo
    How do these not work in an MMO?
    Bladestorm ✓
    Mirror Image ✓
    Stealth/Invisibility ✓
    Critical Strike ✓
    Movement Speed increase✓
    Negative effects remover and teleport ✓
    The only problematic thing is probably controlling each individual Mirror Image, yet people do multiboxing

    They clearly do, since they put bladestorm as their MAIN ability, as their ULTIMATE, and it was THAT that has became playable, just like avatar from mountain king.
    And what about Critical?
    We, also, got Stormbolt and Thunderclap.
    If you think an Ultimate is enough to constitute a class, then the Warlock's Metamorphosis makes it a Demon Hunter.

    You beliving or not is pointless, because your reasons si compltely based around bias
    No, it isn't. When have you seen the Warrior use a Stealth mechanic? or duplicates of any form?

    Literally making stuff up and running away when confronted.
    What have i made up, exactly?

    Blademaster are not a different class, they are warrior, like far seers are just shamans, wanting to make a new class for every unit from wc3 is just delusional
    Not every unit.
    I've carefully examined the Warcraft 3 Hero units and found out that the Blademaster, Dark Ranger, Priestess of the Moon, Naga Sea Witch, Shadow Hunter, Warden, Tinker and Alchemist are lacking representation in existing classes.

    you expect that, but is not how things work, things need and ahve to, be adapted to fit a mmo playstyle and balance, just like avatar don't grant spell immunity wind walk can no longer provide invisibility.
    You're talking about bonuses. I'm talking about animations. Meaning, i don't care if it deals bonus damage in the end or not.

    Blizzard
    Can you provide a quote and a source?

    Those are much more important, since in the lore, the blademaster is the guy who master the sword(bladestom) and deal strong strikes killing people with precise blows(critical strike) this is something is constant hammered down in their lore, and in game play by making bladestorm their ultimate and strongest ability, and critical strike being the main tool to kill enemies. Like i showed, Mirror image is barely leveled up and wind walk is a scout and sprint tool.
    Again, avoiding the question. Provide me with lore about these two abilities.

    they didn't design then like that, you are assuming they are
    Huh?
    Did i give them Mirror Image and Wind Walk, or did Blizzard do that?
    Are those abilities (literally 1/2 of all abilities) there for cosmetic purposes only, as icons on the screen?

    Ah yes, Varian, used a shield, trollbane? a shield
    Varian is not a Knight. He is depicted as a jack-of-all-trades in HotS. and in WoW, he dual-wields as well.
    Danath is a Footman and, literally, uses a shield in Battle for Stromgarde.

    thats you making that up
    Read some lore -_-

    The same way you did in the previous one


    You need to elaborate a little bit more.

    You have no diea what you are talking about right?
    *sigh*

    If the Orc picture is supposed to represent the Blademaster, what do the other 2 supposed to represent?

    - - - Updated - - -


    >he claimed how the blademaster is supposed to be played as a sneaky trickster in the RTS, literally provided a video of an orc player showing how to play a blademaster, and is not like that
    >claim "asian theme" as something important when is just transmog
    You can't tell people how to play a class. Those abilities are there for a reason (to be used) not for cosmetic purposes.
    Just a transmog? the concept is based on the Japanese Samurai. Everything about it is asian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    At the end it doesn't really matter. All of the SL denizens consume anima to sustain themselves. Anima is pretty much what gives them their physical form. Kyrians and many natural beings like the wildlife simply eat stuff made out of anima, venthyr drain and channel it, necrolords weave it or take parts others have woven to make their own bodies and shytefay probably do something as well. Without their anima they are at best a disembodied soul and if you starve that even further you get the thing that happens when you drain them too much, as seen in Revendreth.

    As you said before though, all of those could just eat/suck living beings with souls to sustain themselves outside of the shadowlands. The whole zombie discussion is a bit besides the point.
    Venthyr use it for sustainment. Not too dissimilar to Blood elf and Nightborne dependency on Arcane Magic for sustainment. They even have Wretched and Withered like Ash Ghouls.
    Maldraxxi and Kyrian use it for their constructs.
    Sylvar use it for their forests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Nope, there is no deception on it, they are master of "stealth and guile" wich is translated to cunning, not deception, and "stealth" is again confronted by their own description as honorable warriots and by their, confronted by their role in the lore and by the skill itself saying is not real invisibility just going too fast
    Are you kidding me?
    I've showed you how the word is synonymous with trickiness and it can, only, refer to Mirror Image because there is no other "Guile" ability.
    Wind Walk still turns them invisible, in the end of the day, if you want it or not.

    First of all Once again, this is your own assumption, invisibility was not the defining trait, the mobility and bonus movement was, if the ability didn't make then invisible it would still be used in the same playstyle like showed in the video, as a scout, escape and mobiltiy tool, again, the video ltierally showed the blademaster playstyle, yet people are ignoring and youa re saying is flawled because you don't like it
    It is the defining trait, because the animation turns them transparent.

    Second, Avatardefinint trait is the spell immunity, see how it is in wow, so once again, you are wrong by thinking they cannot adapt things tot he mmo for a balance standpoint, spell immunity on a warrior would be OP, they nerfed, they can do the same with wind walk, saying they can't is being obtusely wrong. Hell even metamorphosis was changed an the defining trait it was own you gained a ranged property and it don't doa nymore, so please, save tis purist talk of how they can't change abilities for someone else
    Again, you confuse bonuses with animations.
    Avatar still turned you into stone and Metamorphosis still turns you into a Demon. Those are the defining traits.

    Exactly like blademasters do? run away from the fight->heal, come back, this is ltierally what a blademaster did in the RTS with potions and is how warriros do in wow with second wind LMAO, try to play then for once.
    Warriors run away? and use stealth/invisibility?

    Nope, they do not want that, since blademasters are not "trickery" based, they want a caricature of a blademaster, especially from other games, into wow
    *You not realizing it exists in the RTS, as well.* What do you think those abilities do, exactly?

    You do not know the warrior concept buddy, you do not even play warrior, you literally ahve being wrong about the class back in forth just like the other guys aying warriors are the slowst class in the game, Blademaster are leirally one of the concepts of warriors, master of 2h weapons who sue mobility, pricse anddevastating atacks, that is the definition of a blademaster and of a arms warrior. Ivisiblity and ilussory iamges are not "concepts" theya re tools, and skills, of the blademaster, who can be added to warrior, because theya re tools, not definint traits that will amke warriros something else.
    In comparison to agile classes, the Warrior is slow.
    It would seem that the description of the class and spec match. I used to think so too. But, eventually, i realized it lacks those 2 other aspects and that they won't be added to the Warrior. Just like Mana Burn and Evasion weren't added to the Warlock. Even though it had Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura, and even though the spec description matched. Instead, they made a whole class.

    And they showed how blademasters are arms warriors, since they are talking about the arms spec in legion.

    The armor used is player set, the banner? a toy.
    Can you link the discussion?

    you ahve to check what "literally" means, cause "guile" does not, literally, mean "trickster" and having stealth does not, literally, mean "sneaky", and once again cherrypicking things fogeting everything else said
    That is, outright, lying.
    Guile is synonymous with trickiness, look that up.
    And stealth is not sneaky?

    Which is not from the class but from the race, orcish, therefore, it can be used with transmog
    Orcs are not Samurais. The Blademaster is. You can see that in other Blademaster races, like the Ankoan. Other cases of Orc Warriors portray them as Mongolian raiders, so it is not a race trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Instead of adding new classes to fail to balance, they should just rename Arms Warrior into Blademaster and give them some Samuro abilities from HOTS. Arms Warrior is a thematic void as it stands now, it has zero character. At least as a de-facto Samurai Swordsman class it will be interesting.
    That is just a cheap solution that can be applied to any possible future class.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-06 at 07:23 AM.
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  6. #6406
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Not, it isn't. Things change in game.
    exactly, just like mirror iamge and wind walk can change, i love how you guys save me the work and refute yourselves.

    Image transmission, literally, expands on the Mirror Image ability. Way of Illusion and Kawarimi are just passive talents.
    none of those exist in warcarft 3, therefore my point stand of they not being in warcraft 3

    It turns you into stone. That's what matters.


    Just like turning you invisible is what matters. Not the bonuses.
    that is a flat out lie, what is matter is not the invisibility, but what it do, providing bonus to moviment and damage, it is literally state in the skill it is not a invisibility magic, is being too fast to the naked eye. And the ability in RTs of avatar was letting you immune to spells they changed that and in ow no one turns into stone.

    You might use it for that, but that's not what it is intended for. Heroic Leap is made to close gaps and Intervene to protect an ally. Nothing evasive about them.
    So, on top of never playing the RTS you also enver played warrior in wow? do you ever done a BG before arena?

    Arena, fladiator which brings the fact that, in the RPG game, blademasters are literally orc warrios who achieved the gladiator rank, yes i know the rpg isn't canon in wow, neither is hots, so again, fi youw ant tob irng hots up i bring the rpg.

    No, we want the Blademaster, which is portrayed in HotS
    then people shall play hots.

    Whcih is funny since people were literally saying "no one is demanding something else other than the RTS", yet, we hsve you to show then wrong, at least something useful

    I've showed you how the word is synonymous with trickiness
    They are not, exactly because blademasters are portrayed as honroable warriors, putting honor above all else, trickness is never aprt of then, but cunning with is the realm meaning of guile here? indeed is part of then

    Read some lore -_-
    4head always funny, mister "i don't know how warriors work neither know the blademaster lore", i should read more

    Orcs are not Samurais.
    the concept of blademaster is literally born from the orcish race, based on the burning blade clan which ais samurai related, the concept art of the first blademaster is the orc samurai samwise didier draw.

  7. #6407
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Hot take but playable classes aren't canon, so whether or not we 'already have' Blademasters or Necromancers or whatever is a pointless comparison because the gameplay classes aren't canon. They are just gameplay mechanics, and deliberately generic due to the fact that there's like 22 race options in the game. Whether an ability belongs to one class or another is as malleable as the lore in this game is, and you have to account for the fact that Mechagnomes and Vulpera are going to be those characters too.

    Instead of adding new classes to fail to balance, they should just rename Arms Warrior into Blademaster and give them some Samuro abilities from HOTS. Arms Warrior is a thematic void as it stands now, it has zero character. At least as a de-facto Samurai Swordsman class it will be interesting.

    If we still had Combat Rogue we'd have threads today begging for a Swashbuckler/Pirate class and people would be like 'but we already have Combat Rogue' and others would be like 'nuh uh Combat and Swashbuckler are completely different!!!'
    It works in some cases, not in others.

    I think Arms could work for Blademaster, but you'd have to go the extra mile and actually take out blunt weapons, otherwise it's just an odd naming convention. Same reason why I wouldn't suggest renaming Fire spec to Blood Mage, there's a lot of weird nuances to the identity that isn't so broadly applicable to just a Fire spec.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-06 at 12:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #6408
    i miss ignite weapon on warriors

  9. #6409
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Cannibalize
    Forsaken racial
    5 yd range
    2 min cooldown
    Channeled
    When activated, regenerates 7% of total health and mana every 2 sec for 10 sec. Only works on Humanoid or Undead corpses within 5 yds. Any movement, action, or damage taken while Cannibalizing will cancel the effect.

    This ability is similar to that of ghouls, ravenous undead cannibals who could regenerate their wounds by eating the flesh of fallen warriors.

    RPG:
    Forsaken are undead, and thus are unable to heal without magical aid. Studying ghouls and abominations, some Forsaken mimic their ability to devour flesh to restore their own. Historically, trolls are cannibals, and have learned to consume flesh to accelerate their own healing. Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act. A cannibalized corpse is befouled.
    Honestly I was just being cute and posting pop culture zombie eating habits.

    For WoW, it seems pretty likely that zombies (or Forsaken, who I would argue aren't actually zombies, but I digress) can eat flesh. Though I don't think it's clear that they have to eat flesh.

  10. #6410
    if they made a new one, it'd be crap. current blizz can't get anything right except raids...

  11. #6411
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you mean is showed to be flawed by your undeniably personal and subjective interpretation of said facts?
    It is a fact that the WoD mission table is not an accurate representation of what the followers actually are. Nat Pagle is a "hunter" not "fisherman". Single-weapon characters are fury warriors, somehow.

    And you're actually alone in all of this. Everyone is arguing AGAINST you. And, I'm sorry, but you're no Galileo Galilei.

    You not liking the arguments, don't mean they are not relevant or conclusive, you just are adept of the absolutist fallacy, not even by bliz showing a blademaster as arms warrior in their warrior class preview is enough
    It shows the warrior fighting a blademaster, not that a blademaster is the warrior class. Otherwise, you're saying that rogues can also wield staves:


    Or priests are also skeletons?



    Or perhaps death knights are paladins?



    In other words: the blademaster in the warrior image is just that: a blademaster. The enemy the player class is fighting against. It does not mean the blademaster is a warrior. This is just your personal interpretation of the image. An interpretation which, considering all the other evidence, is more likely to be wrong than correct.

    and you always keep finding a way to dismiss those things, while, going the other way around for tinker, is imensely funny the double standarts that you use
    There is no double-standard. Your arguments and evidence have been examined, and demonstrated how they are flawed. That is a fact. Deeply flawed, in my opinion.

    Nope, there is no deception on it, they are master of "stealth and guile" wich is translated to cunning, not deception,
    "Guile is the quality of being good at deceiving people in a clever way."
    "​the use of clever but dishonest behaviour in order to trick people"
    "clever but sometimes dishonest behaviour that you use to deceive someone"
    "insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity."
    Need more?

    there is no mocking,
    "Minor something that summons two illusions for giggles" is mockery.

    First of all Once again, this is your own assumption, invisibility was not the defining trait, the mobility and bonus movement was,
    It is in the invisibility. It is the defining reason why one uses the ability the way they do: to sneak in or out.

    Second, Avatardefinint trait is the spell immunity,
    So, my claim that the invisibility is the most important trait of Wind Walk is "just my opinion". But here you are stating that your opinion is objective fact?

    Exactly like blademasters do? run away from the fight->heal, come back, this is ltierally what a blademaster did in the RTS with potions and is how warriros do in wow with second wind LMAO, try to play then for once.
    I do play a warrior. Which is why I can tell you're speaking nonsense. Also, notice how warriors are the only class without a movement speed increase buff ability?

    Nope, they do not want that, since blademasters are not "trickery" based, they want a caricature of a blademaster, especially from other games, into wow
    It's downright amazing how you can continue to repeat that when you were the one who quoted the WoW lore where it states that blademasters are about stealth and trickery.

    You do not know the warrior concept buddy, you do not even play warrior,
    So you're a stalker who broke into my house and is looking over my shoulder as I play?

    you literally ahve being wrong about the class back in forth just like the other guys aying warriors are the slowst class in the game,
    When you believe you are the right one and everyone else is wrong... chances are you are the wrong one. Food for thought. Almost no one has agreed with you, here.

    Blademaster are leirally one of the concepts of warriors,
    Except... it's demonstrably not, as none of the warrior specs play like one would expect the blademaster to play.

    master of 2h weapons who sue mobility,
    Warriors don't have mobility. Of all the melee classes, they have the worst mobility. Even considering all the other classes.

    Ivisiblity and ilussory iamges are not "concepts" theya re tools, and skills, of the blademaster,
    In other words, they're part of the concept, that are wholly unrepresented in the warrior class. Therefore the warrior class does not properly represent the blademaster concept.

    Blademaster are not akin tor ogues, stop saying that, their entire thing is based around being honorable fighters,
    You do know "personal honor" does not mean "honesty", or that they fight without using dirty tricks, right? Robin Hood had a personal code of honor, but he still stole money. "Honor" only means that they have a strict personal code they follow and stick to. In D&D terms, that is what a "lawful" character does, regardless if they're good, neutral or evil. And yes, their playstyle is most similar to rogues, who are also masters of guile and stealth, than warriors.

    and guerrilla style of fighting is literally a style played by warriors, is literally something used in BGs as well warfare inr eal world, lol, do you even played a BG as warrior in your life?
    Go read the definition of "guerrilla tactics".

    And they showed how blademasters are arms warriors, since they are talking about the arms spec in legion.
    Again, that is not a warrior. That is just a blademaster NPC fighting a warrior player.

    The armor used is player set, the banner? a toy.
    Or maybe a future class-exclusive transmog piece, like the DKs have some exclusive sword models.

    we should demand a new class in wow just like the demon hunter from the RTS using heavy armor and metamorphosis, attacking in raged and not having a tank spec, you are right, because things don't and can't change we need a complete print of the RTS

    Sounds stupid?
    It does, because it's a blatant misrepresentation of what people here are asking here. We're asking for a class that fits the WC3 unit and the lore established in WoW, of agile fighters, masters of stealth and trickery.

    you ahve to check what "literally" means, cause "guile" does not, literally, mean "trickster"
    I have. Look above. Second, I never said the blademaster cons money from others. Which is what "trickster" means.

    and having stealth does not, literally, mean "sneaky", and once again cherrypicking things fogeting everything else said
    So how is someone being "stealthy" does not mean being "sneaky"? Explain.

    Which is not from the class but from the race, orcish, therefore, it can be used with transmog
    Orcs are not a race based on real-life oriental culture.

    Like i said hubris and vanity
    More projection.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, it's not. It is based on the Warcraft III (see: Reforged model and Illidan vs Arthas old cinematic).
    It's how it was represented in the WC3 game, and also how Illidan looked in WoW too, back in TBC.

    No, it wasn't. Not in WC3 nor in HotS.
    Are you saying the demon hunter and Illidan don't turn into a demon in WC3 and HotS, respectively? Again, the staple of metamorphosis is transforming into a demon, not "transforming into a specific type and look of demon."

    FFS. Can you do that to Triceron?
    I literally showed you how to do it. If you want to ring him up, do it yourself. You're the one who are using his posts as evidence.

    I can't say anything about their vanilla class choices. Yet, i can see a pattern in their expansion ones.
    You can't just dismiss the vanilla classes just because they throw a wrench in your narrative.

    Because they didn't mention that when asked. They said they considered it for TBC because of Illidan.
    They only mentioned the three runner-ups that beat all the other concepts for Wrath. For all we know, DH may have been in the list of those class concepts that lost to the runemaster, necromancer and death knight.

    Because every class added matched its expansion:
    WotLK - Death Knight
    MoP - Monk
    Legion - Demon Hunter
    Again: runemaster almost became the expansion class for Wrath. And a runemaster does not have fit the Wrath theme and story. If "must match expansion theme" was an actual requirement, the runemaster would not even be considered, much less be one of the top three picks.

    Look at what i pointed above.
    Wouldn't make much sense to add a Tinker in a Pandaren centered expansion, for example.
    Why does it have to "make sense"?

    Already did with the Demon Hunter.
    You haven't. You made the assertion that it exists. You never proved it does.

    Class additions (not considerations).
    So you got no real method of figuring it out and are just making guesses according to your own personal tastes.

    You didn't address my confusion.
    A certain archetype being integrated into a class doesn't mean there won't be NPC characters of them.
    Actually, it does. Because that means, lore-wise, that archetype belongs to that class and NPCs would be represented by said class.

    They, literally, considered it for TBC and then added it when the time was right - in Legion. That's called a waiting list.
    No. No, it doesn't. For all we know, one guy in Blizzard remembered they once tried teh DH and decided to offer it again. You are making a statement of fact without any conclusive evidence of that.

    None of that backs your claim that WC3 units are required for concepts to be made into playable classes in WoW.

    Do you want more of the same?
    Or, are you against new races as a whole?

    It's not much of an argument, but their models are.
    You say this... but venthyr are just a less ugly version of the forsaken. "More of the same". And also: not thinking venthyr should be added as a race does not mean I "only want more of the same".

    What are you talking about?
    It was, literally, a front and center aspect since the days of WC2:
    Warcraft 2 and 3 lore changed when WoW came along. The venthyr thing is recent and a big part of their race's description and lore.

    "This ability is similar to that of ghouls, ravenous undead cannibals who could regenerate their wounds by eating the flesh of fallen warriors."
    That doesn't mean it's something required for survival.

    Not the second one.
    He became the Archangel of Wisdom, while still being a mortal.
    Did he get any new powers? I don't think he did.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-05-06 at 01:41 AM.
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  12. #6412
    The more we see, the more I am convinced that a new class will somehow include Night Warrior one way or another. No way they build all of that up only to make it an NPC-only shenanigan.

  13. #6413
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again: runemaster almost became the expansion class for Wrath. And a runemaster does not have fit the Wrath theme and story. If "must match expansion theme" was an actual requirement, the runemaster would not even be considered, much less be one of the top three picks.
    To be fair, this is something that very easily could have changed over the lifecycle of WoW as the development team has changed, and new leadership has come into play. It's possible that in the days of WotLK they were less concerned with ensuring that an added classes really matched up with the expansion and today they feel it's more important.

    It's one of the reasons I think it tends to be a mistake to assign "rules" to the development team, even when there's a quote that seems to back it up. So much can change, so much has changed, and Blizzard has a track record of doing things they said they would never do.
    Last edited by jellmoo; 2021-05-06 at 03:45 AM.

  14. #6414
    Thye need additional specs not new classes, it has been needed for a long while to spice up available roles for content. Either that or a dual class system where you can share gear between classes and swap like you currently do with specs but an additional class you can learn through a cool story, it would be very easy to make that a major expansion feature.
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  15. #6415
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Thye need additional specs not new classes, it has been needed for a long while to spice up available roles for content. Either that or a dual class system where you can share gear between classes and swap like you currently do with specs but an additional class you can learn through a cool story, it would be very easy to make that a major expansion feature.
    the dual class system in runes of magic was godly

  16. #6416
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    To be fair, this is something that very easily could have changed over the lifecycle of WoW as the development team has changed, and new leadership has come into play. It's possible that in the days of WotLK they were less concerned with ensuring that an added classes really matched up with the expansion and today they feel it's more important.

    It's one of the reasons I think it tends to be a mistake to assign "rules" to the development team, even when there's a quote that seems to back it up. So much can change, so much has changed, and Blizzard has a track record of doing things they said they would never do.
    Of course it's a mistake. First, because, like you pointed out, even if they have rules, they can easily change, year after year. And second, because each and every "rule" people assign to the Blizzard team are nothing but their own conjecture. And it can piss me off when people pass of their own conjectures as fact regarding this fact, especially when they blatantly ignore what little Blizzard has actually revealed about how they pick classes for an expansion if it doesn't conform to their narrative, going insofar as to implying the developers are lying.
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  17. #6417
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    the dual class system in runes of magic was godly
    It's a very low effort major feature which they can literally make an expansion around so knowing blizzard because they always go for the low hanging fruit that's probably going to be the next major feature in an expansion, they know there's a lot of people who would like to play a tank or healer but have mained let's say a hunter for years I don't want to put that much time into a character if they're not seeing as their number one pick or their favorite. So essentially in doing this it would open up many more people to other roles they may not consider, and a small percentage will clearly pick pure DPS matchups but that's going to happen regardless and some people will pick hybrid matchups and that's fine. The power of having two classes for the character you love the most would be a game changer for a WoW, then they could also balance things a little bit looser and a wouldn't hurt people across the board as much because they'd have multiple class options, it always have something to turn to if something in one class wasn't working so well right at the moment. It kind of lets them cover their asses.
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  18. #6418
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    exactly, just like mirror iamge and wind walk can change, i love how you guys save me the work and refute yourselves.
    Exactly. WoW isn't some sacred, set in stone, source. It's time you realize that.

    And no, it can't change in the way you think. Fundamentally, Wind Walk and Mirror Images will still summon duplicates and turn you invisible/stealthed, just like you can't change Metamorphosis from transforming you into a demon. You can change it from ranged to melee, however. Do you see the the point? The core of the ability cannot change, just the bonuses it provides.

    none of those exist in warcarft 3, therefore my point stand of they not being in warcraft 3
    You don't, really, get the point of expanding on the core gameplay of a unit, do you? -_-

    that is a flat out lie, what is matter is not the invisibility, but what it do, providing bonus to moviment and damage, it is literally state in the skill it is not a invisibility magic, is being too fast to the naked eye. And the ability in RTs of avatar was letting you immune to spells they changed that and in ow no one turns into stone.
    No, it isn't. That is part of the fantasy of being a Blademaster or a Mountain King. Not the bonuses the ability provides, which can be reiterated 1,000 times over (like any ability's rework/revamp/hotfix).

    Wind Walk
    Allows the Blademaster to become invisible, and move faster for a set amount of time (important - part of the lore of the ability). When the Blademaster attacks a unit to break invisibility, he will deal bonus damage (not important - a flat out static bonus - can change).

    Avatar
    Activate Avatar to temporarily give the Mountain King 5 bonus armor, 500 bonus hit points, 20 bonus damage and spell immunity (not important - can change for balancing purposes).

    In Warcraft III, Avatar was the name of an ability for the Mountain King hero that temporarily turned him to stone.

    "By focusing the energies of the dwarves’ “newly discovered enchanted heritage”, the mountain kings can grow in size and strength – and take on the physical characteristics of carved stone (important - the lore and fantasy of the ability). In this form, they are impervious to magical attacks and have greatly increased durability" (can be changed for gameplay purposes).

    Metamorphosis
    Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon (important - part of the lore and fantasy of the Demon Hunter) with a ranged attack (600 range) and 500 bonus hit points (not so important - can be changed for gameplay adjustments).

    So, on top of never playing the RTS you also enver played warrior in wow? do you ever done a BG before arena?

    Arena, fladiator which brings the fact that, in the RPG game, blademasters are literally orc warrios who achieved the gladiator rank, yes i know the rpg isn't canon in wow, neither is hots, so again, fi youw ant tob irng hots up i bring the rpg.
    The RPG also calls Grommash and Thrall Blademasters:
    "Chieftain of the Warsong clan and an orc legend, Grom Hellscream is a blademaster of the old traditions. Thrall is also a blademaster."

    So, you can't really take it seriously. Not to mention that a Samurai is by no means a Gladiator. However, there's nothing unrealistic (in terms of a Blademaster) about Samuro's portrayal in HotS.

    As for your claims of mobility to escape:
    Heroic Leap
    Leap through the air toward a target location, slamming down with destructive force to deal (10.2211% of Attack power) Physical damage to all enemies within 8 yards.


    Nothing escapist about it.

    Intercept
    Run at high speed toward an ally, intercepting all melee and ranged attacks against them for 6 sec while they remain within 10 yds.

    It doesn't matter how you use them. It matters what they are meant for fantasy and lore-wise.

    You, literally, have an image in your head of a Blademaster, due to how you play and transmog your character.
    Are Heroic Leap and Intervene Blademaster abilities?
    Leap is a Diablo 3 Barbarian ability and Dwarf Toss is a Muradin ability. Those archetypes are far off from the Japanese Samurai (Nordic warriors).
    Warbringer (sort of intercept) is a Varian ability in HotS. Is Varian a Blademaster? far from it.

    then people shall play hots.

    Whcih is funny since people were literally saying "no one is demanding something else other than the RTS", yet, we hsve you to show then wrong, at least something useful
    Better portrayed than in WC3. That's what i meant to say. If it uses everything the WC3 unit does and more, i don't see why it shouldn't be picked over the WC3. It expands upon the unit itself. You'd have to be mad to not acknowledge that.

    They are not, exactly because blademasters are portrayed as honroable warriors, putting honor above all else, trickness is never aprt of then, but cunning with is the realm meaning of guile here? indeed is part of then
    Which ability portrays their cunningness? Bladestorm? Critical Strike? No, Mirror Image. You wanna know why? because the translation for guile, also, applies to deceit. Do you need a link or something?

    Guile
    deceitful cunning : duplicity.

    You, literally, have an image in your head, for the Blademaster, that does not include all of its aspects (that is called bias).
    Unlike you, we do not wish for only Wind Walk and Mirror Image alone, but Bladestorm and Critical Strike, as well. We want the whole package. Not what you envision in your head for the concept (which, lacks a lot).

    4head always funny, mister "i don't know how warriors work neither know the blademaster lore", i should read more
    You should, because you use your own interpretation while, deliberately, ignoring parts of the lore to suit your style.

    the concept of blademaster is literally born from the orcish race, based on the burning blade clan which ais samurai related, the concept art of the first blademaster is the orc samurai samwise didier draw.
    Of course it is. It doesn't make the Orcs, as a race, Japanese, though. The class itself is, the race itself isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It works in some cases, not in others.

    I think Arms could work for Blademaster, but you'd have to go the extra mile and actually take out blunt weapons, otherwise it's just an odd naming convention. Same reason why I wouldn't suggest renaming Fire spec to Blood Mage, there's a lot of weird nuances to the identity that isn't so broadly applicable to just a Fire spec.
    Glad you're here.
    Can you tell lelenia you've worked in a gaming company and that they ditch projects and concepts at 90%+ completion, all the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Honestly I was just being cute and posting pop culture zombie eating habits.

    For WoW, it seems pretty likely that zombies (or Forsaken, who I would argue aren't actually zombies, but I digress) can eat flesh. Though I don't think it's clear that they have to eat flesh.
    They don't have to, but they need to if they are injured.

    Thing is, Anima consumption of Venthyr is closer to Arcane consumption of Blood elves and Nightborne (hence, why they are so similar), and they found other sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's how it was represented in the WC3 game, and also how Illidan looked in WoW too, back in TBC.
    Exactly. Now, you're getting it.
    The Havoc Demon Hunter demon form is based on Illidan's demon form aesthetic.

    Are you saying the demon hunter and Illidan don't turn into a demon in WC3 and HotS, respectively? Again, the staple of metamorphosis is transforming into a demon, not "transforming into a specific type and look of demon."
    All of them transform into an Illidan type of Demon Form. Never have the Vengeance one been portrayed.

    I literally showed you how to do it. If you want to ring him up, do it yourself. You're the one who are using his posts as evidence.
    Did that.
    Let's hope he replies.

    You can't just dismiss the vanilla classes just because they throw a wrench in your narrative
    I didn't dismiss. I said i can't say anything about them. Never have i analysed them or tried to understand the reasoning behind their addition. What i can tell you, though, is that expansion classes have a clear pattern.

    They only mentioned the three runner-ups that beat all the other concepts for Wrath. For all we know, DH may have been in the list of those class concepts that lost to the runemaster, necromancer and death knight.
    So, why mention that they considered the class for TBC (due to Illidan's being prominent), yet not mention they considered it for Wrath, as well?

    Again: runemaster almost became the expansion class for Wrath. And a runemaster does not have fit the Wrath theme and story. If "must match expansion theme" was an actual requirement, the runemaster would not even be considered, much less be one of the top three picks.
    I'm not talking about considerations here. I'm talking about actual additions. They all matched their expansions.

    Why does it have to "make sense"?
    That's what they have been doing. Open your eyes.

    You haven't. You made the assertion that it exists. You never proved it does.
    Jesus christ. Learn to conclude stuff.
    "Waiting List" is metaphorical for classes waiting to be added. If they have an actual, physical list or not is not the point. The Demon Hunter, for that matter, was considered for TBC (due to Illidan), yet it was scrapped due to the implementation of 9 classes the expansion before. It was put on "Hold" for 8 years, till Legion, when it finally made sense to add it.

    So you got no real method of figuring it out and are just making guesses according to your own personal tastes.
    That is my method. Nothing personal about it. It's a robotic calculation, no emotional attachment. Unlike you and your necromancer obsession, i don't advocate for these classes because i want them. I advocate for them because i'm aware of Blizzard's conduct.

    Actually, it does. Because that means, lore-wise, that archetype belongs to that class and NPCs would be represented by said class.
    Wrong. We've seen that with the Lich and Dreadlord units, which have some of their abilities in the Death Knight. They still exist as NPC characters.

    No. No, it doesn't. For all we know, one guy in Blizzard remembered they once tried teh DH and decided to offer it again. You are making a statement of fact without any conclusive evidence of that.


    "They all have amnesia there" - lelenia

    Jokes aside. They said "when the time was right", not that they, suddenly, recalled about the existence of that class.

    None of that backs your claim that WC3 units are required for concepts to be made into playable classes in WoW.
    That wasn't why i linked them. You wanted proof that they have been integrated into the Death Knight (and Monk).

    You say this... but venthyr are just a less ugly version of the forsaken. "More of the same". And also: not thinking venthyr should be added as a race does not mean I "only want more of the same".
    Are you joking?
    One's a Zombie, the other a Vampire. Two different undead creatures. I wonder how you reacted to allied races, then...

    Warcraft 2 and 3 lore changed when WoW came along. The venthyr thing is recent and a big part of their race's description and lore.
    Nothing changed about the lore of light hurting undead, except for gameplay reasons for the Forsaken. You're just belittling the lore, like sygfreyd does with Wind Walk and Mirror Image, to suit your agenda.
    It is a big part of their aesthetic (they are vampires, after all). Yet, if Blizzard managed to adjust undead characters, they can do so with Venthyr.

    That doesn't mean it's something required for survival.
    Never claimed it. It's for repairing.
    Arcane dependency, on the other hand, is. And, they managed to fix that.

    Did he get any new powers? I don't think he did.
    Yes, you can see him using his powers against Maelthel in Diablo 3 cinematic.
    The point is, he remained a mortal and an Archangel at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    The more we see, the more I am convinced that a new class will somehow include Night Warrior one way or another. No way they build all of that up only to make it an NPC-only shenanigan.
    You are correct, my friend.
    Yet, some here decide to turn a blind eye to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    To be fair, this is something that very easily could have changed over the lifecycle of WoW as the development team has changed, and new leadership has come into play. It's possible that in the days of WotLK they were less concerned with ensuring that an added classes really matched up with the expansion and today they feel it's more important.

    It's one of the reasons I think it tends to be a mistake to assign "rules" to the development team, even when there's a quote that seems to back it up. So much can change, so much has changed, and Blizzard has a track record of doing things they said they would never do.
    You are right.
    They broke our expectations with 2 original races being added every other expansion.
    They can do so with classes. Yet, until they do i'm inclined to use whatever is available for prediction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Thye need additional specs not new classes, it has been needed for a long while to spice up available roles for content. Either that or a dual class system where you can share gear between classes and swap like you currently do with specs but an additional class you can learn through a cool story, it would be very easy to make that a major expansion feature.
    How about these?:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...pecializations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Of course it's a mistake. First, because, like you pointed out, even if they have rules, they can easily change, year after year. And second, because each and every "rule" people assign to the Blizzard team are nothing but their own conjecture. And it can piss me off when people pass of their own conjectures as fact regarding this fact, especially when they blatantly ignore what little Blizzard has actually revealed about how they pick classes for an expansion if it doesn't conform to their narrative, going insofar as to implying the developers are lying.
    It is subjective and bound to change.
    Yet, it's all we have for now.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-06 at 10:44 AM.
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  19. #6419
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Unbelievably ridiculous thing to say, everything that exists in RTS exists in HOTS but HOTS expanded upon those exact abilities so RTS
    "expanded" in a non-canon way, for a moba-like game, not a mmo-rpg, if it where, the abilities would be different, like i've being seing for days, but people are just too thick to understand that expanding the arms warrior to fit more, the blademaster is the way to go, instead of making a whole enw class, when we already have then just not fully represented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is a fact that the WoD mission table is not an accurate representation of what the followers actually are. Nat Pagle is a "hunter" not "fisherman". Single-weapon characters are fury warriors, somehow.
    those are accurate, not being totally or 100% accurate, for some characters,don't mean the whole system is invalid, this of course a fallacy of biased generalization. Just like they did right with other characters by example Death knights, why ywould you jump to conclusions beliving the case of Lantressor is the same of Nat pagle? when we already had many evidences leading us to believe that indeed blademasters are arms warriors? Lantressor is the living proof of that. Being among one of the iconic blademaster, having warriors skils and being tagged as an arms warriors how he is

    And you're actually alone in all of this. Everyone is arguing AGAINST you. And, I'm sorry, but you're no Galileo Galilei.
    Ah yes, they also called him a madman, but sorry the appeal to popular belief is a fallacy that is not goign to save this argument for you, no matter how many times you brought up

    It shows the warrior fighting a blademaster, not that a blademaster is the warrior class. Otherwise
    Nice way to trying to pervet things but you know that option is just for players, the toy, and to put literally on the arms spec pannel, when they could ahve put everything else, literally anything else instead of another representation of what a arms warrior is? come on, only a blind man cannot see it

    "Minor something that summons two illusions for giggles" is mockery.
    yeah, no, this is again, you assuming and projecting, just because i said "for gigles" don't imply "mockery", i said in the meaning to have fun, because is the purpose of the game, it don't need too do much, just do ilusions to distract.

    It is in the invisibility. It is the defining reason why one uses the ability the way they do: to sneak in or out.
    it was not the invisibility but the movement boost, please, try to play the rts for once

    So, my claim that the invisibility is the most important trait of Wind Walk is "just my opinion". But here you are stating that your opinion is objective fact?
    your claim literally goes againt the truth, when wild walk is used mostly for their mobility meaning,the boost of speed, if the ability didn't grant invisibility it would still be great and people would still keep using, thats how people use in the RTs, i literally linked you a video of orc playstyle there, im not going to repeat those things over and over until you decide nitpicking something else

    I do play a warrior. Which is why I can tell you're speaking nonsense. Also, notice how warriors are the only class without a movement speed increase buff ability?
    You clearly do not, thats why im saying you are speaking nonsense, not having a "movement speed increase buff is one of the most nonsensical arguments you brought here, that is literally an Association fallacy, waow, you must rly like to win things, cause is the only reason why you go so hard on the foruns like that.

    Your comment just show that warriors should get a buff like that too, wind walk being the perfect thing

    It's downright amazing how you can continue to repeat that when you were the one who quoted the WoW lore where it states that blademasters are about stealth and trickery.
    Ah yes, cherrypicking fallacy, feels good to just pick this "quote" and ignore everything else, and nowhere is said "trickery", is said guile, so you not just cherrypicking but doing wrong.

    So you're a stalker who broke into my house and is looking over my shoulder as I play?
    your outright unawareness of the class show that

    When you believe you are the right one and everyone else is wrong... chances are you are the wrong one. Food for thought. Almost no one has agreed with you, here.
    Appeal to Popular Belief - Claiming something is true because the majority of people believe it.
    Except... it's demonstrably not, as none of the warrior specs play like one would expect the blademaster to play.
    ah yes, because you trully know how the RTS blademaster played and how wow warrior played, except you show yourself as a person who don't.

    Warriors don't have mobility. Of all the melee classes, they have the worst mobility. Even considering all the other classes.
    Mobility
    Warriors are known as a highly mobile class, charging and leaping about the battlefield, and fiercely intervening between their allies and those that would attack them. To be effective in the heat of PvP combat, warriors may need to use every one of their abilities to stay within range of their targets, as they rely on being in melee range to make use of their abilities.

    The warrior's main mobility skill [Charge] stuns opponents and generates rage, and can be improved by talents to be available very frequently. [Intervene] (or [Safeguard], if talented) allows the warrior to leap to the defence of an ally, or simply use their teammates (or Banners) to launch themselves back into the fray. [Heroic Leap] allows the warrior to leap down upon their enemies or if necessary to flee quickly out of range of attacks, and additionally deals some AoE damage.
    A battle-hardened master of two-handed weapons, using mobility and overpowering attacks to strike <his/her> opponents down.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior#Arms

    3. Strengths of Arms Warriors
    Strong consistent damage and powerful burst AoE
    Decent mobility
    Powerful defensives
    Adaptable kit able to respond to almost any situation
    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-warrior-pvp-guide

    Strengths
    +Very flexible toolkit, able to spec into any damage profile from single target,
    +two-target cleave, sustained multitarget, or burst AoE.
    +High mobility class due to Charge, Intervene , and Heroic Leap .
    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...-pve-dps-guide

    What Makes Arms Special for Shadowlands?

    Mobility: Arms Warriors tactically advance through the battlefield using Charge and Heroic Leap to quickly engage the enemy.
    https://pt.wowhead.com/arms-warrior-guide

    Unique Qualities
    Warriors have exceptional mobility due to Heroic Leap and Charge,
    https://www.wowhead.com/melee-dps-guide

    [ Warriors don't have mobility. Of all the melee classes, they have the worst mobility.
    Ah yes, a true warrior player, honestly, im zero surprised that once again you have barely a clue of what you are speaking and are probably saying something just because other people said, you know little about warriors and by extension, little about blademasters, since they are the same

    to think you are rly arguing that warriros are not a mobile class, therefore should not get those two skills, is hilarious

    You do know "personal honor" does not mean "honesty", or that they fight without using dirty tricks, right? Robin Hood
    Ah yes, two unrelated things brought together trying to make a point, another good use of false equivalence

    Go read the definition of "guerrilla tactics".
    You can do that while you level up a warrior, play one for a bit, might help loose up that thinking of yours.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Exactly. WoW isn't some sacred, set in stone, source. It's time you realize that.

    And no, it can't change in the way you think.
    Im trully amazed how you can have such double standarts, you first said it canc ahnge and nothing is sacred, then say it can't change, in the way i think , that is the hubris and vanity im talking about

    Fundamentally, Wind Walk and Mirror Images will still summon duplicates and turn you invisible/stealthed, just like you can't change Metamorphosis from transforming you into a demon. You can change it from ranged to melee, however. Do you see the the point? The core of the ability cannot change, just the bonuses it provides.
    so, im just goign to talk about this, since appear is the core center of the problem and let the rest of your dreams alone. I will try to explaind etailed because this is probably my last response to you since you are already too dep into that.

    first of all you are using the fallacy of circular logic , your conclusion is pressuposted from a premise based on the conclusion., you are concluding that the "stealth" part of wind walk cannot change(this is your conclusion) because "stealth" is the core ability or feature of wind walk(this is your premise)

    But your premise is false, "Stealth" is not the "core ability", if it was, it would be called "invisible walk" or "shadow walk" or even "stealth walk", but of course name along is not the only thing to be take off, true, but see what wind walk did, lets read their lore:

    So adept and agile are the blademasters that they can move so quickly that they appear to be invisible to the naked eye.
    The core of the ability is being adept and agile, to move quickly that they just appear to be invisible, from all of the talk of being fast and mobile, and the ability being called wind walk, you know, wind is fast, do you think the core ability is ""invisibility"?

    Lets go for what the ability did at max lv:

    Invisible, +70% Movement speed, 100 bonus damage
    The ability granted you an absurd bonus of 70% of movement speed, 100 bonus damage, and being invisbile, 2/3 of the core skill lies on being mobile and dealing a stronger attack, but you are saying the invisibility part is more important than the 70% movement speed, despite being what the ability is called and described

    Put everything we learn about it, and add the fact that players who played orc in the RTs and went for blademaster, relly on their wind walk for the purposes of scouting and hitting and running for the movement speed the ability grants it?

    are you rly sure "invisibility" is the core thing of wind walk and cannot change? despicted abilities like "avatar" who core thing was being a colossus immune to magic damage, changed anyway?

    I for one, would not see a single problem of wind walking changing to pick up the namer and playstyle better, providing a speed bonus and even a damage bonus for an attack, it would be an excelent ability to replace heroic leap
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-05-06 at 10:59 AM.

  20. #6420
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    The more we see, the more I am convinced that a new class will somehow include Night Warrior one way or another. No way they build all of that up only to make it an NPC-only shenanigan.
    You realy think that?


    Dark rangers were in the same boat with bfa imo and with the hype of SL. Nothing happened. Besides Night warrior is melee balance druid that.

    I dont think many cared for the whole Night warrior shit to begin with. If they make this a class they gonna get the boo's 100%.

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