1. #6421
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    "expanded" in a non-canon way, for a moba-like game, not a mmo-rpg, if it where, the abilities would be different, like i've being seing for days, but people are just too thick to understand that expanding the arms warrior to fit more, the blademaster is the way to go, instead of making a whole enw class, when we already have then just not fully represented.
    Adjustments can be made from MOBA to MMO (i.e. - the Demon Hunter).

    those are accurate, not being totally or 100% accurate, for some characters,don't mean the whole system is invalid, this of course a fallacy of biased generalization. Just like they did right with other characters by example Death knights, why ywould you jump to conclusions beliving the case of Lantressor is the same of Nat pagle? when we already had many evidences leading us to believe that indeed blademasters are arms warriors? Lantressor is the living proof of that. Being among one of the iconic blademaster, having warriors skils and being tagged as an arms warriors how he is


    I like how you ignore other cases, yet point out those that match yours.
    By the way, There's a Death Knight class. There's not much getting wrong there.

    yeah, no, this is again, you assuming and projecting, just because i said "for gigles" don't imply "mockery", i said in the meaning to have fun, because is the purpose of the game, it don't need too do much, just do ilusions to distract.
    Everything is fun if you consider it so. Bladestorm? for fun. Critical Strike? for fun. class concepts? fun and giggles. There's nothing more subjective than this.

    it was not the invisibility but the movement boost, please, try to play the rts for once
    You regard it so. Because you, or someone else, played it that way. In the end, invisibility was not for cosmetic purposes.

    your claim literally goes againt the truth, when wild walk is used mostly for their mobility meaning,the boost of speed, if the ability didn't grant invisibility it would still be great and people would still keep using, thats how people use in the RTs, i literally linked you a video of orc playstyle there, im not going to repeat those things over and over until you decide nitpicking something else
    Again, how you view that. Don't you see the bias in that?
    You think that if you, and someone else, are having a great time from the speed bonus that it is an objective truth that applies to everyone. The matter of fact is that Blizzard put invisibility there for a reason. It is part of the ability's lore. "You become so fast that you appear invisible to the naked eye". They could have just said "you become fast".

    You clearly do not, thats why im saying you are speaking nonsense, not having a "movement speed increase buff is one of the most nonsensical arguments you brought here, that is literally an Association fallacy, waow, you must rly like to win things, cause is the only reason why you go so hard on the foruns like that.

    Your comment just show that warriors should get a buff like that too, wind walk being the perfect thing
    Are you saying that Warriors are as agile and quick as other agile classes (i.e. - Rogues and Demon Hunters)?
    Because the Japanese Samurai fantasy (in pop culture depictions) matches them more than the Warrior (with Rogues having a Ninja spec and Demon Hunters being based on Japanese demon slayers).

    Ah yes, cherrypicking fallacy, feels good to just pick this "quote" and ignore everything else, and nowhere is said "trickery", is said guile, so you not just cherrypicking but doing wrong.
    Guile: deceive, duplicity.
    Mirror Image: create duplicates to deceive your opponent.
    How many times do we need to show it to you?

    your outright unawareness of the class show that
    Speak for yourself. You just built this notion in your head that Blademasters use Charge, Heroic Leap and Intercept.

    ah yes, because you trully know how the RTS blademaster played and how wow warrior played, except you show yourself as a person who don't.
    There's no need to know how to, optimally, play it. That's subjective. There's the unit, right there, with its 4 abilities, which you choose to ignore some of them and what they do.

    Again, you attributing Charge, Heroic Leap and Intervene to Blademasters is what's wrong. They have never been attributed to them. In fact, leaping is more of the Barbarian/Mountain King, and Intervening more of a Varian thing. None of these were given to Samuro.

    Ah yes, a true warrior player, honestly, im zero surprised that once again you have barely a clue of what you are speaking and are probably saying something just because other people said, you know little about warriors and by extension, little about blademasters, since they are the same

    to think you are rly arguing that warriros are not a mobile class, therefore should not get those two skills, is hilarious
    Warriors are mobile. But, not Samurai mobile. Charge is something Highmountain Taurens do (far from a Samurai). Heroic Leap is something Barbarian/Mountain Kings do (far from a Samurai). Intercepting is something Human Warriors, probably, do (far from a Samurai).

    Ah yes, two unrelated things brought together trying to make a point, another good use of false equivalence
    They do. Because summoning duplicates is deceiving (not honorable).

    You can do that while you level up a warrior, play one for a bit, might help loose up that thinking of yours.
    Guerilla tactics are what Survival Hunters used in Legion's revamp (explosives, traps, and so on). Read about guerilla warfare.

    Im trully amazed how you can have such double standarts, you first said it canc ahnge and nothing is sacred, then say it can't change, in the way i think , that is the hubris and vanity im talking about
    I guess you're not a native English speaker, because you keep misunderstanding.
    In-game WoW, such as NPCs, are not evidence of anything set in stone.
    Transition from MOBA/RTS to MMO can change (i.e. - Demon Hunter more ranged playstyle to a more melee one).
    Fundamental stuffs (like Metamorphosis transforming you into a Demon) cannot change, because that would change the essence of the class (like deciding it, suddenly, turns you into a unicorn, for example).
    Now, do you understand?

    so, im just goign to talk about this, since appear is the core center of the problem and let the rest of your dreams alone. I will try to explaind etailed because this is probably my last response to you since you are already too dep into that.

    first of all you are using the fallacy of circular logic , your conclusion is pressuposted from a premise based on the conclusion., you are concluding that the "stealth" part of wind walk cannot change(this is your conclusion) because "stealth" is the core ability or feature of wind walk(this is your premise)

    But your premise is false, "Stealth" is not the "core ability", if it was, it would be called "invisible walk" or "shadow walk" or even "stealth walk", but of course name along is not the only thing to be take off, true, but see what wind walk did, lets read their lore:



    The core of the ability is being adept and agile, to move quickly that they just appear to be invisible, from all of the talk of being fast and mobile, and the ability being called wind walk, you know, wind is fast, do you think the core ability is ""invisibility"?

    Lets go for what the ability did at max lv:



    The ability granted you an absurd bonus of 70% of movement speed, 100 bonus damage, and being invisbile, 2/3 of the core skill lies on being mobile and dealing a stronger attack, but you are saying the invisibility part is more important than the 70% movement speed, despite being what the ability is called and described

    Put everything we learn about it, and add the fact that players who played orc in the RTs and went for blademaster, relly on their wind walk for the purposes of scouting and hitting and running for the movement speed the ability grants it?

    are you rly sure "invisibility" is the core thing of wind walk and cannot change? despicted abilities like "avatar" who core thing was being a colossus immune to magic damage, changed anyway?

    I for one, would not see a single problem of wind walking changing to pick up the namer and playstyle better, providing a speed bonus and even a damage bonus for an attack, it would be an excelent ability to replace heroic leap
    Again, my friend, you seem to be confused.
    Never have i claimed that the invisibility part is more important than the speed buff. Both are integral to the ability. Do you comprehend what i write down?
    What i said is the bonus damage after you leave Wind Walk is not crucial, since it is not mentioned in the lore of the ability.
    The name Wind Walk comes from the fact that you seem so light on your feet that you appear to be walking on wind.
    If this is your last reply to me then you ought to stop claiming wild claims on this thread. Otherwise, i'm obliged to reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    You realy think that?


    Dark rangers were in the same boat with bfa imo and with the hype of SL. Nothing happened. Besides Night warrior is melee balance druid that.

    I dont think many cared for the whole Night warrior shit to begin with. If they make this a class they gonna get the boo's 100%.
    That's why they're going to combine the two (probably with Warden, as well).
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-06 at 01:36 PM.
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  2. #6422
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    those are accurate, not being totally or 100% accurate, for some characters,don't mean the whole system is invalid,
    It is, though. Once a system is shown to be flawed, it is no longer reliable. If you find out your friend has lied to you about certain claims he made, would you still completely believe him purely on his word for any other claims he makes? I sure hope not. The system (WoD talbe) has been shown be flawed in the representation of certain characters, that puts a question mark above all the other claims the system makes (like Lantresor being an actual Arms warrior).

    this of course a fallacy of biased generalization. Just like they did right with other characters by example Death knights, why ywould you jump to conclusions beliving the case of Lantressor is the same of Nat pagle? when we already had many evidences leading us to believe that indeed blademasters are arms warriors? Lantressor is the living proof of that. Being among one of the iconic blademaster, having warriors skils and being tagged as an arms warriors how he is
    We don't. And Lantresor isn't. Your reasoning is circular, here: "the WoD mission table says blademaster Lantresor is an arms warrior, and the WoD mission table is correct because Lantresor is shown as an arm warrior." It's also very dishonest of you when you talk about "all the evidence that blademasters are warriors" while at the same time completely ignoring the evidence on the contrary. Evidence like:
    • Blademasters having fire abilities;
    • Blademasters having wind walk and mirror image;
    • Blizzard having a long track record of reusing already existing abilities for NPCs when they are "close enough";
    • Blademaster lore and concept being in direct contradiction to the warrior concept. Blademasters are masters of stealth and deception.

    Ah yes, they also called him a madman, but sorry the appeal to popular belief is a fallacy that is not goign to save this argument for you, no matter how many times you brought up
    Yes, true. The "appeal to popular belief" is a fallacy. But here's the kicker: it being a fallacy does not necessarily implies that the opposite is true (being alone in your beliefs means your belief is true). Also, I am willing to bet that Galileo Galilei did not just petulantly stomped the ground and refused to budge on his claims. I bet, like the smart man he is, he actually examined his own believes and redid most, if not all of his calculations to make sure he's correct. Any intelligent, smart, honest people would at least stop and reflect if what he's spouting is actually true when. Every. Single. Person that he speaks to is telling him he's wrong. So far, you have not demonstrated even a shadow of an inkling of being open to the possibility that you might possibly be wrong.

    Nice way to trying to pervet things but you know that option is just for players, the toy, and to put literally on the arms spec pannel, when they could ahve put everything else, literally anything else instead of another representation of what a arms warrior is? come on, only a blind man cannot see it
    This is again another case of you dismissing evidence on the contrary. The rogue class image shows another leather-wearer wielding a staff. By your logic, it means rogues should be able to wield staves. The paladin one has a death knight in the picture. By your logic, that means paladins and death knights are one and the same.

    yeah, no, this is again, you assuming and projecting, just because i said "for gigles" don't imply "mockery", i said in the meaning to have fun, because is the purpose of the game, it don't need too do much, just do ilusions to distract.
    Yes, it does mean you're mocking the ability and the concept. It means exactly that. What you're doing here is akin to someone saying "I'm no xenophobe! I just want these aliens to get the hell out of my country and stop stealing our jobs!"

    it was not the invisibility but the movement boost, please, try to play the rts for once
    It seems to me the one who didn't play RTS was you, if you think the invisibility was not the major part of the ability.

    your claim literally goes againt the truth, when wild walk is used mostly for their mobility meaning,the boost of speed, if the ability didn't grant invisibility it would still be great and people would still keep using, thats how people use in the RTs, i literally linked you a video of orc playstyle there, im not going to repeat those things over and over until you decide nitpicking something else
    That's a dumb argument. Of course they would still use the ability. Just like they'd still use the Mountain King's Avatar ability even if it didn't grant spell immunity. They'd still use the DK's Animate dead even if it raised only one mob, or if the mobs resurrected weren't immune to damage for the duration of the spell. But that's not the point. The point is that the most iconic aspect of the ability is the invisibility.

    You clearly do not, thats why im saying you are speaking nonsense,
    Says the guy who literally has no one on their side, here. Says the guy who everyone else is saying is wrong. Very amusing.

    Ah yes, cherrypicking fallacy, feels good to just pick this "quote" and ignore everything else, and nowhere is said "trickery", is said guile, so you not just cherrypicking but doing wrong.
    Says the guy who dismisses all evidence that goes against his narrative no matter how many times everyone repeats it to his face.

    ah yes, because you trully know how the RTS blademaster played and how wow warrior played, except you show yourself as a person who don't.
    Mmhm. Yeah. Okay, mister Five Times Warcraft 3 World Champion.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior#Arms

    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-warrior-pvp-guide

    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...-pve-dps-guide

    https://pt.wowhead.com/arms-warrior-guide

    https://www.wowhead.com/melee-dps-guide

    Ah yes, a true warrior player, honestly, im zero surprised that once again you have barely a clue of what you are speaking and are probably saying something just because other people said, you know little about warriors and by extension, little about blademasters, since they are the same

    to think you are rly arguing that warriros are not a mobile class, therefore should not get those two skills, is hilarious
    You completely missed the point about this talk about mobility. We're talking about escape methods. The ability to escape battles. Because that is part of the blademaster concept: to evade and escape battle when the odds turn against them. All the mobility the warrior class has is about getting him INTO BATTLE, not out of it. Which is why Charge roots the enemy target while you use it. It's why Heroic Leap has a damage component. It's why Intervene gives the friendly player you dash to a damage reduction buff.

    Ah yes, two unrelated things brought together trying to make a point, another good use of false equivalence
    And once again, you dismiss evidence against your case without explaining why it's a "FaLsE eQuIvAleNcE". Again, having "personal honor" does not preclude one to be sneaky and engage in deception.

    You can do that while you level up a warrior, play one for a bit, might help loose up that thinking of yours.
    So you don't know anything about warriors, only what the texts say... which is more than we can say about your knowledge of guerrilla tactics...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Exactly. Now, you're getting it.
    The Havoc Demon Hunter demon form is based on Illidan's demon form aesthetic.
    And the vengeance DH is based off on Illidan as well. "Exact representation of graphics" is irrelevant as long as it is close enough.

    All of them transform into an Illidan type of Demon Form. Never have the Vengeance one been portrayed.
    It doesn't matter. They represent Illidan almost to a 'T' in this case because they have all the important aspects one expects out of the demon hunters: they transform into demons, they have self-immolate, they wield warglaives, they are very quick and agile.

    I didn't dismiss. I said i can't say anything about them. Never have i analysed them or tried to understand the reasoning behind their addition. What i can tell you, though, is that expansion classes have a clear pattern.
    You are dismissing them if you're talking exclusively about the expansion classes. As for your "clean pattern", that's just your own personal observations. I can also point out many "break of patterns" from expansion to expansion just regarding classes.

    So, why mention that they considered the class for TBC (due to Illidan's being prominent), yet not mention they considered it for Wrath, as well?
    IIRC, they were talking about TBC, not Wrath?

    I'm not talking about considerations here. I'm talking about actual additions. They all matched their expansions.
    It could very well be just a coincidence. Remember that the runemaster had nothing to do with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's theme and story, and yet was one of the three runner-ups for the expansion's class choice.

    That's what they have been doing. Open your eyes.
    Learn about correlations and causations.

    Jesus christ. Learn to conclude stuff.
    I do know how to "conclude stuff". And to know how to "conclude stuff" also means knowing when the information we have is too vague and/or too little to make any conclusion out of them.

    That is my method. Nothing personal about it. It's a robotic calculation, no emotional attachment.
    If it was truly "robotic, without emotional attachment", you'd see how your method is flawed because it depends purely and exclusively on your own personal tastes and conclusions, i.e., your "emotional attachments."

    I advocate for them because i'm aware of Blizzard's conduct.
    No, you're not. You're stating your own opinions as fact, here, if you truly think you know Blizzard's design processes.

    Wrong. We've seen that with the Lich and Dreadlord units, which have some of their abilities in the Death Knight. They still exist as NPC characters.
    You're making my point for me, here. The dreadlord concept (a demon) has not been "integrated" to the death knight. Only its abilities. That's like saying mages are nagas because they have mana shield.

    Jokes aside. They said "when the time was right", not that they, suddenly, recalled about the existence of that class.
    It doesn't mean there's a "waiting list".

    That wasn't why i linked them. You wanted proof that they have been integrated into the Death Knight (and Monk).
    No, that was not even close to my argument. It's about the claim that we need a WC3 unit to base WoW classes from otherwise they will not be implemented.

    Are you joking?
    One's a Zombie, the other a Vampire. Two different undead creatures. I wonder how you reacted to allied races, then...
    If you want to nitpick, venthyr are neither vampire, nor undead. They just have a severe weakness to the light. They don't even drink blood.

    It is a big part of their aesthetic (they are vampires, after all). Yet, if Blizzard managed to adjust undead characters, they can do so with Venthyr.
    They're not vampires. Or undead.

    Never claimed it. It's for repairing.
    Arcane dependency, on the other hand, is. And, they managed to fix that.
    High/blood elves never required arcane to live.

    Yes, you can see him using his powers against Maelthel in Diablo 3 cinematic.
    Is it his power, or his sword's power? Because every time Tyrael used his powers in mortal form, it came from the sword.

    The point is, he remained a mortal and an Archangel at the same time.
    So, a mortal with the title of archangel?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  3. #6423
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    They don't have to, but they need to if they are injured.
    Do you have a source for that? Honestly asking because it's a new one for me. I don't think I had ever heard that the only way for them to heal was to use the flesh of the living. I had always thought that lore wise they used alchemy and vile concoctions to heal up, but that just might be my own headcanon.

    Thing is, Anima consumption of Venthyr is closer to Arcane consumption of Blood elves and Nightborne (hence, why they are so similar), and they found other sources.
    I personally don't have any issue with the Venthyr being playable. I think they would have to do some rather large lore bending action to make it work, but they've certainly done so before and I have a suspicion that this is the direction the expansion is going in anyway.

    You are right.
    They broke our expectations with 2 original races being added every other expansion.
    They can do so with classes. Yet, until they do i'm inclined to use whatever is available for prediction.
    My take is that the human mind is always looking for patterns and we tend to latch onto them when we see them. It's a natural thing. And bringing them up in debates like this does make sense. There may be kernels of truth in them. Where I think some posters (not saying you're one of them) make a mistake is in treating these patterns as a hard and fast rule.

    The same goes for taking a Blizzard quote and using it as a hard rule. For example, we all saw them say that they didn't add a new class in Shadowlands because they didn't feel any fit the theme. This has been extrapolated to mean that this has always been the way they've handled class design, which is impossible to know especially since the team and the leadership has changed multiple times over the years. And that it will always be the way they handle adding new classes, since things can change at any point.

    I think the danger comes when treating anything as an absolute, or pretending that these items create a 'fact'. Treating a personal conclusion as a hard fact is exactly what's going on with the Blademaster discussion right now, and it highlights how one person can reach a conclusion with nothing but their own bias as evidence, and utterly derail an entire conversation.

  4. #6424
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It's a very low effort major feature which they can literally make an expansion around so knowing blizzard because they always go for the low hanging fruit that's probably going to be the next major feature in an expansion, they know there's a lot of people who would like to play a tank or healer but have mained let's say a hunter for years I don't want to put that much time into a character if they're not seeing as their number one pick or their favorite. So essentially in doing this it would open up many more people to other roles they may not consider, and a small percentage will clearly pick pure DPS matchups but that's going to happen regardless and some people will pick hybrid matchups and that's fine. The power of having two classes for the character you love the most would be a game changer for a WoW, then they could also balance things a little bit looser and a wouldn't hurt people across the board as much because they'd have multiple class options, it always have something to turn to if something in one class wasn't working so well right at the moment. It kind of lets them cover their asses.
    I just want them to have a split class talent system

    Are you a warrior rogue?? Fan of swords
    Are you a warrior paladin?? Sacred weapon

  5. #6425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And the vengeance DH is based off on Illidan as well. "Exact representation of graphics" is irrelevant as long as it is close enough.
    How so?
    it lacks wings, Hooves and Ram horns.

    It doesn't matter. They represent Illidan almost to a 'T' in this case because they have all the important aspects one expects out of the demon hunters: they transform into demons, they have self-immolate, they wield warglaives, they are very quick and agile.
    And are all Havoc Demon Hunters.

    You are dismissing them if you're talking exclusively about the expansion classes. As for your "clean pattern", that's just your own personal observations. I can also point out many "break of patterns" from expansion to expansion just regarding classes.
    Go ahead. Tell me how they broke the pattern. Until they do so, and add a non-Warcraft 3 Hero unit class, that's when my method would be invalid.

    IIRC, they were talking about TBC, not Wrath?
    *Facepalm*

    They were talking about the addition of the Demon Hunter in Legion, in retrospective. They should have mentioned Wrath, as well.

    It could very well be just a coincidence. Remember that the runemaster had nothing to do with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's theme and story, and yet was one of the three runner-ups for the expansion's class choice.
    Yeah, "coincidence" -_-
    Maybe, it is why it lost?

    Learn about correlations and causations.
    Yeah...Yeah...
    You've got a better explanation?

    I do know how to "conclude stuff". And to know how to "conclude stuff" also means knowing when the information we have is too vague and/or too little to make any conclusion out of them.
    I have to grasp it. Otherwise, it would slip from my hands.

    If it was truly "robotic, without emotional attachment", you'd see how your method is flawed because it depends purely and exclusively on your own personal tastes and conclusions, i.e., your "emotional attachments."
    How so?
    Is it because i want WC3 Heroes very badly?
    If there was another pattern, i'd stick to that. Nothing personal about WC3.

    No, you're not. You're stating your own opinions as fact, here, if you truly think you know Blizzard's design processes.
    As fact? no. I admit i could be wrong, like many other things. Yet, unlike the others here, who choose classes based on their personal preferences, i point out the likely scenario.

    You're making my point for me, here. The dreadlord concept (a demon) has not been "integrated" to the death knight. Only its abilities. That's like saying mages are nagas because they have mana shield.
    Abilities are part of a concept (i.e. - vampirism). Why do you think only part of the Runemaster was integrated into the Death Knight (not martial arts)?

    It doesn't mean there's a "waiting list".
    For the Demon Hunter, there certainly was.

    No, that was not even close to my argument. It's about the claim that we need a WC3 unit to base WoW classes from otherwise they will not be implemented.
    *Hero unit.
    So, why did you ask for a source?

    If you want to nitpick, venthyr are neither vampire, nor undead. They just have a severe weakness to the light. They don't even drink blood.
    You've got to be, really, ignorant to think Venthyr aren't based on vampires.
    Vampires are undead creatures.
    Vampires burn in the sun.
    Venthyr drink red anima.

    They're not vampires. Or undead.
    *Biggest facepalm i've ever had*

    Venthyr are one of the Warcraft iterations of Vampires.

    High/blood elves never required arcane to live.
    It would make them into wretches.
    And Nightborne, remember Runas? the guy who died at the end from the lack of Arcane sources?

    Is it his power, or his sword's power? Because every time Tyrael used his powers in mortal form, it came from the sword.
    We'd have to ask a Diablo fan.
    Anyway, he was still an Archangel and a mortal.

    So, a mortal with the title of archangel?
    I don't know.
    Anyway, you can be one in-game, as a mortal, through the Priest's Archangel talent. So, it's not reserved to Shadowlands creatures only.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Do you have a source for that? Honestly asking because it's a new one for me. I don't think I had ever heard that the only way for them to heal was to use the flesh of the living. I had always thought that lore wise they used alchemy and vile concoctions to heal up, but that just might be my own headcanon.
    "Aside from magical potions, Forsaken can "heal" themselves in numerous ways. To name a few, they can replace their body parts by harvesting and sewing on the body parts of others, eat other humanoids and undead, and drain the life force of others. When the Holy Light is used with the intention to heal a Forsaken, it is immensely painful, yet effective. The Forsaken restoration process requires the stitching or grafting of new sinew, muscle and skin to repair their bodies; and since the Forsaken body does not naturally heal itself, it is the predominant method of keeping Forsaken bodies functional. It should also be noted that a Forsaken's body, or the parts of the body they've grafted onto it, may only be preserved in the same condition as it was found when deceased. Since Forsaken bodies can't grow new muscles, a body part of a new Forsaken will never naturally grow stronger and thus will only improve if one replaces the unsatisfactory body part with another one containing more muscles. The downside to Forsaken undeath is their bodies are henceforth fragile to injury or rot and may require constant body part transplants to maintain. As such, Forsaken generally do not applaud or stamp their feet, as it prematurely wears out their limbs; clapping, in particular, is terrible for their hands."

    I personally don't have any issue with the Venthyr being playable. I think they would have to do some rather large lore bending action to make it work, but they've certainly done so before and I have a suspicion that this is the direction the expansion is going in anyway.
    Some people here can't see it.

    My take is that the human mind is always looking for patterns and we tend to latch onto them when we see them. It's a natural thing. And bringing them up in debates like this does make sense. There may be kernels of truth in them. Where I think some posters (not saying you're one of them) make a mistake is in treating these patterns as a hard and fast rule.

    The same goes for taking a Blizzard quote and using it as a hard rule. For example, we all saw them say that they didn't add a new class in Shadowlands because they didn't feel any fit the theme. This has been extrapolated to mean that this has always been the way they've handled class design, which is impossible to know especially since the team and the leadership has changed multiple times over the years. And that it will always be the way they handle adding new classes, since things can change at any point.

    I think the danger comes when treating anything as an absolute, or pretending that these items create a 'fact'. Treating a personal conclusion as a hard fact is exactly what's going on with the Blademaster discussion right now, and it highlights how one person can reach a conclusion with nothing but their own bias as evidence, and utterly derail an entire conversation.
    You're right.
    I'm not claiming i'm 100% right.
    Heck, i was wrong trying to predict the expansion after BFA, using a prediction method based on a pattern i found in Cinematic Trailers and last Raids of expansions. Yet, i believe i'm still right to some degree (thought it was gonna be Light/Void, turned out to be Death).
    The thing is, those are the best tools i've got right now, so i don't see anything wrong with using them.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-06 at 08:41 PM.
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  6. #6426
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    If you just came out here and said, okay, guys, I personally think arms is a blademaster, but I appreciate you guys see a blademaster as being something incredibly specific,.
    yeah, im not going to say that, that would make me wrong like you guys, Warriors are the wow blademasters, they just need the rest of the skills, cause everything else they already have

    Like i said many times, Hots is a MOBA it plays different than a MMO, is impossible to be the same


    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I guess you're not a native English speaker, because you keep misunderstanding.
    In-game WoW, such as NPCs, are not evidence of anything set in stone.
    Transition from MOBA/RTS to MMO can change (i.e. - Demon Hunter more ranged playstyle to a more melee one).
    Fundamental stuffs (like Metamorphosis transforming you into a Demon) cannot change, because that would change the essence of the class (like deciding it, suddenly, turns you into a unicorn, for example).
    Now, do you understand?
    the fundamental stuff of windwalk is not being invisible, stop saying that, is literally the movement speed. stop saying nonsenses

    If this is your last reply to me then you ought to stop claiming wild claims on this thread. Otherwise, i'm obliged to reply.
    pot meet kettle

  7. #6427
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    I just want them to have a split class talent system

    Are you a warrior rogue?? Fan of swords
    Are you a warrior paladin?? Sacred weapon
    No it just work like being able to swap through the specs at will but you'd have to swap to that class with its own separate specs they can't have a balancing nightmare like that.
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    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    How so?
    it lacks wings, Hooves and Ram horns.
    It lacks horns?

    Also, it lacks wings? No, it has wings. Transform into a demon, as a vengance DH, and tap on the jump button three times, and you'll see your wings.

    And are all Havoc Demon Hunters.
    And vengeance demon hunters, too. Especially when you remember that Immolation was a vengeance-only ability in the beginning.

    Go ahead. Tell me how they broke the pattern. Until they do so, and add a non-Warcraft 3 Hero unit class, that's when my method would be invalid.
    Here's two:
    • DK and monk are open to a wide variety of races. DH is not. Pattern broken.
    • DK and monk have three specs. DH has two. Pattern broken.

    Yeah, "coincidence" -_-
    Maybe, it is why it lost?
    That is almost certainly not the reason it happened, because of one reason, and one reason only: it was in the list of "top three" class ideas. If "must have WC3 hero" was anywhere near a requirement, the runemaster would not even make it to the list, in the first place.

    Yeah...Yeah...
    You've got a better explanation?
    What you're doing there is the "argument from ignorance" fallacy: you're saying "I can't think of any other explanation, therefore this explanation must be true." Just because the other party says "I don't know" (which, is my answer, here) does not automatically make your explanation true.

    I have to grasp it. Otherwise, it would slip from my hands.
    This is basically an admittance that you're grasping at straws. It's fine if "slips from your hands" if you don't know how it works.

    How so?
    Is it because i want WC3 Heroes very badly?
    If there was another pattern, i'd stick to that. Nothing personal about WC3.
    Because you don't see how you're refusing to observe the other side. You're not considering the evidence put forth, you're just arguing for your side.

    As fact? no. I admit i could be wrong, like many other things.
    Then why do you insist that this "waiting list" exists as a fact, then?

    Yet, unlike the others here, who choose classes based on their personal preferences, i point out the likely scenario.
    Really? Because I don't care if a dark ranger or blademaster class is added to the game. I have my own two preferences, which I think are made very clear every time I post, here. And yet I'm arguing for the blademaster and dark ranger because I see the potential and possibilities. So your "you're arguing out of personal preference" argument goes right down the drain.

    Abilities are part of a concept (i.e. - vampirism). Why do you think only part of the Runemaster was integrated into the Death Knight (not martial arts)?
    You're mistaken a piece for the whole. Blizzard did not put the "demon concept" (i.e. the dreadlord) into the death knight class. They just gave the class blood magic inspired on what the dreadlord could do in WC3. There is a difference.

    For the Demon Hunter, there certainly was.
    Not really. We can't prove it either way.

    *Hero unit.
    So, why did you ask for a source?
    Because of this statement of yours:
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Again, disregarding reality. In the end, it lost. Just like the Necromancer, and was integrated into not one, but two classes. Ask yourself this: why everything that eventually makes it into the game is based on a Warcraft 3 Hero (and not a unit or an RPG concept).
    ]
    Which you then claimed "it is backed up by a Blizzard statement", hence me asking for a source.

    You've got to be, really, ignorant to think Venthyr aren't based on vampires.
    Vampires are undead creatures.
    Vampires burn in the sun.
    Venthyr drink red anima.


    *Biggest facepalm i've ever had*

    Venthyr are one of the Warcraft iterations of Vampires.
    They're not, though. They may have been inspired in the vampire concept, but they're not vampires:
    • the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse;
    • the venthyr do not "reproduce" by biting people;
    • the venthyr do not drink blood;
    • the venthyr are not undead.

    On the other hand, the san'layn are actually Warcraft's iteration of the vampire concept.

    It would make them into wretches.
    Go read on Wretched. It is the abuse of arcane that turned high/blood elves into wretches, not the lack of it.

    And Nightborne, remember Runas? the guy who died at the end from the lack of Arcane sources?
    He didn't die. They become withered. But I'll concede this point.

    We'd have to ask a Diablo fan.
    Anyway, he was still an Archangel and a mortal.
    We don't have to. It's all the sword. It's the power within the sword. And no, Tyrael becomes an archangel in name only at the end of Diablo 3.

    I don't know.
    Anyway, you can be one in-game, as a mortal, through the Priest's Archangel talent. So, it's not reserved to Shadowlands creatures only.
    Except you don't turn into an actual archangel, though. It's just the name of the PvP talents that boost the atonement ability.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yeah, im not going to say that, that would make me wrong like you guys,
    Having an opinion different than yours is "being wrong"?

    Warriors are the wow blademasters,
    In your personal opinion. Please don't state it like it is fact... because it is not.

    the fundamental stuff of windwalk is not being invisible,
    Yes, it is.
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  9. #6429
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is, though. Once a system is shown to be flawed, it is no longer reliable.
    Of course in your opinion, just like medicines and treatment, they are not reliable because sometimes don't work , what a great bullshit logic

    We don't. And Lantresor isn't. Your reasoning is circular, here: "the WoD mission table says blademaster Lantresor is an arms warrior, and the WoD mission table is correct because Lantresor is shown as an arm warrior."
    I commend you for trying to use something i said earlier against me, but just show how desperate you are, the thing is, im not using the table as the conclusion, i am just saying is one of the evidences that supports the truth of blademasters being warriors, and since you are attacking so desperatly one point in specific by your nittpicking nature you just get blind to the rest

    Yes, true. The "appeal to popular belief" is a fallacy. But here's the kicker: it being a fallacy does not necessarily implies that the opposite is true
    If your point was vallid or even ture, you would not resort to fallacies, and if i was a madmam, ignoring was just the way to go, but you just here to discuss nonsense because ims aying something you don't want to belief is true

    This is again another case of you dismissing evidence on the contrary. The rogue class image shows another leather-wearer wielding a staff. By your logic, it means rogues should be able to wield staves. The paladin one has a death knight in the picture. By your logic, that means paladins and death knights are one and the same.
    never a rogue was presented as a "staff wielder" but warriros are show to be blademasters and vice versa, in the entire wow lifetime, they could ahve choosed literally a warrior wielding a staff, but they didn't, like i siad, you comparisons just never work
    Yes, it does mean you're mocking the ability and the concept
    Stop projecting and red hering, you think saying shit like that will improve what you say after you show yourself having no horse on this race?
    It seems to me the one who didn't play RTS was you, if you think the invisibility was not the major part of the ability.

    >literally sho a video where the maor part of the ability was the mobility the ability provided with bonus speed


    "iT wAs ThE iNvIsIbIlItY"

    let me guess, you played the RTS like you played the mmo, not playing orcs like you didn't play warriors at all? totally offtopic, but you sounds a night elf and/or human player so explain why you didn't understand orcs
    Says the guy who literally has no one on their side, here. Says the guy who everyone else is saying is wrong. Very amusing.
    once again, appeal to popular belief, can't you do anything without restorting to fallacies

    Mmhm. Yeah. Okay, mister Five Times Warcraft 3 World Champion.
    I literally show you a video of a world champion,
    You completely missed the point about this talk about mobility. We're talking about escape methods.
    no, you completely missed the point and showed yourself as a liar, since you do not play warrior and you said they are the less mobile class of the game, literally going against the truth,there is noe scape on that, you "opinion" shows, once again, to be wrong

    Even by you backpedaling about "escape" methods is hilarious because heroic leap is literally an useful ability used to escape, the ones who never used to escape in a BG never played warrior at all, which is you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes, it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In your personal opinion. Please don't state it like it is fact... because it is not.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-05-06 at 09:35 PM.

  10. #6430
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the fundamental stuff of windwalk is not being invisible, stop saying that, is literally the movement speed. stop saying nonsenses
    If it was just movement speed then we wouldn't be pointing out that Warriors lack the stealth and invisibility mechanics that Blademasters in WC3 have.

    Whether it's fundamental to the Windwalk spell is not the main point. It's that it's fundamental to the identity of the Blademaster of WC3. If we're talking about translating the fantasy and themes of a Blademaster from an RTS into WoW, then the equivalent mechanics are Stealth or Invisibility. You're not addressing the fantasy at all by disregarding the invisibility aspect as though it's not worth implementing. You're just dismissing the WC3 Blademaster's themes.

    Same applies to Mirror Image; it's a mystical ability that creates illusions of the player. Mages already have this ability, so we know the mechanic can be translated fine, and even be given the ability to have the illusions deal actual damage. This is a proper translation of RTS mechanics into WoW. This is something the Warrior class lacks.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-06 at 10:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #6431
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Of course in your opinion, just like medicines and treatment, they are not reliable because sometimes don't work , what a great bullshit logic
    That is not even comparable. And here I will do something you have yet to do in all your posts, i.e., explain my reasoning: it's not comparable because with medicines and treatment, researchers actually and actively try to figure out why those medications and treatments did not work on certain people. And guess what happens next? If they find out why they don't work, they explain to the public why, and put safety labels on those medications and treatments. But if they cannot find what is causing those treatments and medications to not work? They are deemed unsafe and are no longer used. And with the WoD follower table? We cannot investigate why and how those discrepancies exist. Therefore? We should consider the WoD follower table unreliable. You can't just discard the misses and count only the hits.

    I commend you for trying to use something i said earlier against me, but just show how desperate you are, the thing is, im not using the table as the conclusion, i am just saying is one of the evidences that supports the truth of blademasters being warriors, and since you are attacking so desperatly one point in specific by your nittpicking nature you just get blind to the rest
    The WoD follower table is the only thing in WoW that classifies Lantresor as an "arms warrior". Nothing else in the game we see anything like that. The Legion class preview image? It's just a player warrior fighting a blademaster. It's not a statement that blademasters are warriors, just like the Legion class preview image for rogues doesn't mean rogues can wield staves, or that paladins are death knights.

    If your point was vallid or even ture, you would not resort to fallacies,
    Except I'm not appealing to fallacies. You're using "argumentum ad populum" wrong. That fallacy states that a proposition is true because it's widely believed. And this isn't the case, here. We're not saying that our position is true. We're saying yours is wrong, because of one simple issue: you're repeatedly stating your opinions as facts, and everyone else is telling you that what you're doing (i.e., stating your opinions as facts) is wrong.

    and if i was a madmam, ignoring was just the way to go, but you just here to discuss nonsense because ims aying something you don't want to belief is true
    All you've done is state your opinion as facts, here. This isn't anymore about "what I want to believe", it's about trying to explain to you that your opinion is not fact. It's just your opinion.

    never a rogue was presented as a "staff wielder"
    There is literally a character wielding a staff in the Legion class preview image for Rogues, which I linked. By your logic (since your argument was "blademaster in warrior picture means blademaster = warrior) that means rogues can wield staves.

    but warriros are show to be blademasters and vice versa, in the entire wow lifetime,
    Only once, and that one time was the WoD mission table. Which has been demonstrated to be flawed.

    Stop projecting and red hering, you think saying shit like that will improve what you say after you show yourself having no horse on this race?
    I'm not projecting, here. Those were your exact words.

    once again, appeal to popular belief, can't you do anything without restorting to fallacies
    Your entire posts are nothing but fallacies, since you just can't stop posting your personal opinions and subjective interpretations as facts.

    no, you completely missed the point and showed yourself as a liar, since you do not play warrior
    Dude. I never lied. Stop with the personal attacks.

    and you said they are the less mobile class of the game, literally going against the truth,
    List the movement speed abilities that the warrior class has. Go.

    Even by you backpedaling about "escape" methods is hilarious
    The entire conversation has been about how Wind Walk's invisibility and movement is speed is used to escape tough situations.

    because heroic leap is literally an useful ability used to escape,
    But that is not the intention behind the ability. Again, it has a damage component. Hard to 'escape' when you aggro'ing everything around where you land.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-05-06 at 10:22 PM.
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    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    It'd be bad, imbalanced and likely take thigs away from a class that already exists because the current development team doesn't know how to develop fun.

  13. #6433
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    No it just work like being able to swap through the specs at will but you'd have to swap to that class with its own separate specs they can't have a balancing nightmare like that.
    no no no what i mean is much like RoM multiclass system where so many levels you get a unique talent
    for example the knight/mage got consecration as the early talent gained

    now if they just do it where "oh you are now a rogue warrior and can swap between all specs" thats just...boring

  14. #6434
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    no no no what i mean is much like RoM multiclass system where so many levels you get a unique talent
    for example the knight/mage got consecration as the early talent gained

    now if they just do it where "oh you are now a rogue warrior and can swap between all specs" thats just...boring
    Ya but it is a safe addition, Blizzard doesn't take great chances, and when they do they create a broken system they always try and fix but fail lol.
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  15. #6435
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is not even comparable.
    its not comparable because you don't want then to be i assume, like i said, everytime you dismiss something that does not goes the way you like and nittpick the others

    All you've done is state your opinion as facts, here.
    Says the guy who affirm warriors are the less mobile class in the game and other nonsenses, sure
    There is literally a character wielding a staff in the Legion class preview image for Rogues
    And in never in wow story rogues are depicted as staff wielders, but warriors are depicted as blademasters across wow lifetime, of course, you are doing the most absurd correlation trying to hand wave the truth, that blizzard could have done anything else to put there, they could have done a staff wielder, a dagger wielder, a priest or anything else, and they deliberated chose to put a blademaster using the burning blade toy in the arms warrior section.

    Your entire posts are nothing but fallacies
    I said this before, on you, you are just trying to do a "no u" thing?

    Dude. I never lied. Stop with the personal attacks.


    List the movement speed abilities that the warrior class has. Go.
    you said you played warrior, and yet, you said warriors have no mobility and among the melee classes they have the worst mobility

    this is literally your words:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Warriors don't have mobility. Of all the melee classes, they have the worst mobility. Even considering all the other classes.
    there is no such thing to talk about ""speed abilities" but mobility and how by being a high mobile class, they can yes, gain wind walk, don't try to backpedal this one, it would be prettier to just assume

    But that is not the intention behind the ability. Again, it has a damage component. Hard to 'escape' when you aggro'ing everything around where you land.
    Lmao, now you work on blizzard to say what the "intention of ability", going literally against the people who make those guides, the damage is little to make no difference in the DPS is literally an ability to escape and go away or engage combat just like windwalk.

    And This is even funnier, cause hear me out, you are so over focused on nitpicking this that you failed completely to realize that windwalk is an ability that deals bonus damage when you hit someone while in the ability, meaning by your logic, is not an escape ability, but an engage one, to go to the enemy super fast and deal him bonus damage then start attacking him normally. Just like Heroic leap, but instead of jumping to the target, you would run fast towards him and attack.

    Meaning, my proposition early, to design windwalk as a talent ability to replace heroic leap is just amazing and completely make sense witht he flavor and thematic of warrior.

    But hey, like a madmani can see the future, i bet you are going to say "leaping" to the target and "running" to target, are totally different concepts, like the sun and moon, and just cannot be related at all, theya re totally different "thematics and flavors", and this cannot be done because is "nonsense"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If it was just movement speed then we wouldn't be pointing out that Warriors lack the stealth and invisibility mechanics that Blademasters in WC3 have.
    the ability did 3 things and it was more important by the movement boost, the invisible and damage are nice but is not the core concept neither the main feature on the ability, already pointed in my other response.
    Whether it's fundamental to the Windwalk spell is not the main point. It's that it's fundamental to the identity of the Blademaster of WC3.
    I mean, still is tiresome how you guys want to decide what is important or not, but even that if we talk about the "fundamental identity" still is not the invisibility but the movement, it is how is stated in the lore, in the description of the ability and how people used then in the game/pvp

    Like i said, wind walk could totally substitute heroic leap, instead of a jump, he would have a quickly boost of sprint that deals bonus damage when the warrior hit the target, with the heroic leap cd and in a short time of invisibility/invulnerability or blur/evasion, it will make the warrior feel even more like a blademaster in combat, going back and forth fast to kill enemies, just like they did in the RTS

    Not sneaking and stealthing like a rogue, because that is not how they played in the RTS

  16. #6436
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    its not comparable because you don't want then to be i assume,
    Why do you feel the need to assume when I literally explained my reasoning in that exact same paragraph!?

    Says the guy who affirm warriors are the less mobile class in the game and other nonsenses, sure
    I base my opinion on the fact warriors are the only class without a movement speed buff ability.

    And in never in wow story rogues are depicted as staff wielders, but warriors are depicted as blademasters across wow lifetime,
    They haven't. You're just making an assumption on shaky evidence. The WoD mission table? Flawed. The warrior picture? Flawed.

    of course, you are doing the most absurd correlation trying to hand wave the truth, that blizzard could have done anything else to put there, they could have done a staff wielder, a dagger wielder, a priest or anything else, and they deliberated chose to put a blademaster using the burning blade toy in the arms warrior section.
    Or it could just be a coincidence. Simple as that.

    I said this before, on you, you are just trying to do a "no u" thing?
    Dude, I'm literally explaining things to you.

    you said you played warrior, and yet, you said warriors have no mobility and among the melee classes they have the worst mobility

    this is literally your words:



    there is no such thing to talk about ""speed abilities" but mobility and how by being a high mobile class, they can yes, gain wind walk, don't try to backpedal this one, it would be prettier to just assume
    You're completely ignoring the context of our conversation here. We're talking about speed abilities used to escape combat.

    Lmao, now you work on blizzard to say what the "intention of ability", going literally against the people who make those guides, the damage is little to make no difference in the DPS is literally an ability to escape and go away or engage combat just like windwalk.
    Look at how the warrior abilities are designed. Everything in warrior kit is designed to either GET you into combat, or KEEP you in combat. Nothing in their kit is designed to get the warrior out of combat.

    And This is even funnier, cause hear me out, you are so over focused on nitpicking this that you failed completely to realize that windwalk is an ability that deals bonus damage when you hit someone while in the ability, meaning by your logic, is not an escape ability, but an engage one, to go to the enemy super fast and deal him bonus damage then start attacking him normally. Just like Heroic leap, but instead of jumping to the target, you would run fast towards him and attack.
    Because it's that how sneaky, stealthy characters do: they attack you from the shadows on a surprise attack. But the entire concept of the blademaster, as it is written in the lore (which you quoted, I'll remind you) is that they are masters of stealth and deceit. They're the hit-and-run type. I mean, check out what Blizzard themselves said about the blademaster:

    Use Wind Walk to get away when the Blademaster is about to die. Use Wind Walk to scout the map without being attacked. You can walk into an enemy town, look around, then leave.
    • Use Wind Walk to sneak into an enemy town or upon stopped collections of enemy units and do a Bladestorm.
    • Wind Walk can be used for soloing Creeps at the start of the game. A cool trick is to run into a group of Creeps, kill the leader to get the best items, grab the items, then go invisible using Wind Walk.
    The Blademaster can use Wind Walk early in the game to use Fountains of Health, Fountains of Mana, or other Neutral buildings while they are still being defended by Creeps.
    The Blademaster can wake up a bunch of Creeps, and then lead them to the enemy. The Blademaster can then use Wind Walk to become invisible giving the Creeps a new target, that enemy player.
    • Because Hero Speed is capped at 400, the Blademaster is not able to advance beyond 400 speed. 400 is reached with Level 2 Wind Walk. The Blademaster's speed does not increase after level 2. The main benefit of reaching level 3 is for the longer duration.
    • Wind Walk can be used to walk through units.

    This is a popular strategy where players use a Blademaster to do hit-and-run attacks. This strategy is easily beaten with many abilities or items including Dust of Appearance (Night Elf Shop), Dark Ranger's Silence (to prevent Wind Walk), Priestess of the Moon's Scout ability, and other abilities that reveal invisible units. In team games Dust is the easiest.
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  17. #6437
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're completely ignoring the context of our conversation here. We're talking about speed abilities used to escape combat.
    Nope, you are backpedaling, we are talking about mobility, and you said they don't have it, at all, don't try to distort things midway trough.

    Look at how the warrior abilities are designed. Everything in warrior kit is designed to either GET you into combat, or KEEP you in combat. Nothing in their kit is designed to get the warrior out of combat.
    So you are going against what the pro-players/guide writers have said about the class gameplay, yep, must be their opinions as well.

    Tell me where is explicitly said those abilities are designed to ONLY "get you in to combat and keep it" and not "escape when necessary" show me, i dare you

    You, as a non warrior player, are again assuming things and trying to pass out your opinion as a fact(after acusing me of doing that), when we literally have evidence showing you wrong, heroic leap is for engage and escape purposes, if it was not, you would not be able to use in the middle of combat you know, like rogue normal stealth is not
    Because it's that how sneaky, stealthy characters do: they attack you from the shadows on a surprise attack.
    And then run away and not in a battlefield, i mean, it is the class rogue-ish thing no? sneaking into someone else room...assassinations, thefts, things like that, did you hear much rogues in a battlefield? what is the place of the rogue and the blademaster in a war? are you going to tell me they share the same spot? Blademasters "theme and fantasy" is like a rogue, sneaking into places or or in the heat of the battle like a true warrior he is? that is their "concept in lore" that people like to ignore

    thats how Blademasters do, they are fast, they get the target and keep fighting

    wind walk is not a all time invisibility like rogues and druids ones, is not a stealth for that purposes, is literally going fast to engage

    But the entire concept of the blademaster, as it is written in the lore (which you quoted, I'll remind you) is that they are masters of stealth and deceit. They're the hit-and-run type. I mean, check out what Blizzard themselves said about the blademaster:
    You are making up, deceit is not in the quote it was GUILE = cunning

    It is adorable that you are bringing up "blizzard themselves" as an attempt to appeal to authority, cause obviou bllzizard is "higher in the herarchy"(its funny, if blizzard put the blademaster as arms warrior they are not reliable anymore...but suddenly here they are) but like i said, try to play yourself in a serious match, and see how you are going to succed in doing that, but i bet you will, since you do not use heroic leap to escape cause "it is designed to engage"

    Like, literally those things just further prove my point, wind walk like heroic leap are used to get away when you are about to die, any warrior do that. if you never pulled a bunch of elite creeps, charge to an enemy and heroic leap away letting then deal with the shit you never played a warrior before

    Hit-and-run tactics is what warriors do in BGs by all the time harassing camps or getting flags, My god dude

  18. #6438
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Like i said, wind walk could totally substitute heroic leap, instead of a jump, he would have a quickly boost of sprint that deals bonus damage when the warrior hit the target, with the heroic leap cd and in a short time of invisibility/invulnerability or blur/evasion, it will make the warrior feel even more like a blademaster in combat, going back and forth fast to kill enemies, just like they did in the RTS

    Not sneaking and stealthing like a rogue, because that is not how they played in the RTS
    Blademasters in WC3 sneak around like a rogue all the time. Windwalk's invisibility was used for scouting and stealing items from other heroes when they creep.

    It's a bit surprising that you link Grubby's videos but have nothing to say of how the invisibility is actually used to perform kill steals, item steals and hero ganks all things that are more rogue like than warrior.

    You say the movement speed is more important. You say the invisibility is not important. Well, I consider your argument dishonest and in bad faith then, since you're intentionally twisting facts to dismiss the importance of stealth to the WC3 Blademaster.

    There are very few heroes that can move around in stealth in the game, of which the Blademaster is the only one who has it accessible from the start of the game as an ability and without the requirement of day/night cycle. No other hero can move while invisible without the use of items or other unit abilities. As a class feature, stealth is unique to the Blademaster. That is very class defining, and you're treating it like it's a secondary stat.

    To dismiss stealth is to be dishonest about the WC3 Blademaster concept. You can absolutely make your argument about it not being how they were played, and I'd call you out on it for being a liar considering a WC3 Blademaster without the invisibility would be a very different hero. There is a reason why Mirror Image and Crit Strike are never taken first pick, and its not because Windwalk has movement speed.

    The Windwalk ability is in the game, and on some Blademaster NPCs. It has a stealth/invisibility component to it. Whatever Movement speed ability you're trying to suggest is fine as a new ability, but it is nothing closer to a Blademaster's identity and people will still be asking for Windwalk or a stealth component regardless. You haven't addressed the argument here, that the theme and fantasy of the WC3 Blademaster is not represented in WoW. You're just adding an ability that you think is important, but everyone else has told you has nothing to do with the WC3 Blademaster's themes.

    It's as dumb as someone suggesting that Rogues represent Demon Hunters instead of a new class, so they should be given a Shadow form that looks like and functions like Demon Form, but isn't an actual demon because it overlaps too much with Warlocks theme. A Shadow form would be fine as a new Rogue ability, but there's nothing Demon Hunter related about them having that. Demon Hunters have the theme of turning into Demons, and you can't substitute that with 'it functions just like Demon Form'.

    You're suggesting substitutes, which I can see is your attempt to reach a common ground, but the problem is you're using half-measures that satisfy no one rather than finding a solution that addresses the issues on both sides. Your suggestion doesn't address the Warcraft 3 Blademaster's ability to use invisibility. I have no problem with Warriors getting a movement speed ability, but this really has nothing to do with the Windwalk ability and the Blademaster being able to pass undetected. It's a threat drop/escape mechanic.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-07 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #6439
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yeah, im not going to say that, that would make me wrong like you guys, Warriors are the wow blademasters, they just need the rest of the skills, cause everything else they already have

    Like i said many times, Hots is a MOBA it plays different than a MMO, is impossible to be the same
    "Warlocks are the Demon Hunters of WoW. They just need the rest of the skills" - that's how you sound like.

    It doesn't need to be the same. It is used as a source of inspiration.

    the fundamental stuff of windwalk is not being invisible, stop saying that, is literally the movement speed. stop saying nonsenses
    "So adept and agile are the blademasters that they can move so quickly that they appear to be invisible to the naked eye." - both are.
    Again, you distort what i say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It lacks horns?

    Also, it lacks wings? No, it has wings. Transform into a demon, as a vengance DH, and tap on the jump button three times, and you'll see your wings.
    Ibex horns (forward facing and half-circular).
    Glide is a not part of the model, it is a general ability of the Demon Hunter. Can you provide a picture, though? that would look hella weird.

    And vengeance demon hunters, too. Especially when you remember that Immolation was a vengeance-only ability in the beginning.
    Would you consider Windwalker Monk based on the Brewmaster, and not an original spec, since it has "Storm, Earth and Fire" and the Brewmaster don't?

    Here's two:
    • DK and monk are open to a wide variety of races. DH is not. Pattern broken.
    • DK and monk have three specs. DH has two. Pattern broken.
    *Thumbs up*
    They can add more Demon Hunter races in the future, as we've argued about in that Demon Hunter races thread.
    They can add a third, ranged spellcaster, spec to Demon Hunters that is based on the Warlock's and WC3's Metamorphosis.

    That is almost certainly not the reason it happened, because of one reason, and one reason only: it was in the list of "top three" class ideas. If "must have WC3 hero" was anywhere near a requirement, the runemaster would not even make it to the list, in the first place.
    Do you, even, know the reasons why it lost?

    What you're doing there is the "argument from ignorance" fallacy: you're saying "I can't think of any other explanation, therefore this explanation must be true." Just because the other party says "I don't know" (which, is my answer, here) does not automatically make your explanation true.
    Never claimed it is. Nothing is false-proof. But, until you provide me with something else, don't be mad that i'm using it.

    This is basically an admittance that you're grasping at straws. It's fine if "slips from your hands" if you don't know how it works.
    I'm waiting for the "i was right all along" moment
    Preferably, with a prize at the end.
    That's part of the male ego. We're competitive.

    Because you don't see how you're refusing to observe the other side. You're not considering the evidence put forth, you're just arguing for your side.
    What evidence? consideration of other classes? I'm, specifically, claiming about addition. When they break that pattern, you'll have the honor of telling me to stop.

    Then why do you insist that this "waiting list" exists as a fact, then?
    Never as a fact. As a probability. Demon Hunter, for example. What do you think they do with class concepts they ditch and not integrate into a new class?

    Really? Because I don't care if a dark ranger or blademaster class is added to the game. I have my own two preferences, which I think are made very clear every time I post, here. And yet I'm arguing for the blademaster and dark ranger because I see the potential and possibilities. So your "you're arguing out of personal preference" argument goes right down the drain.
    To be honest, the only eye-catching WC3 classes for me are the Shadow Hunter and, maybe, the Tinker. The others i advocate for due to my analysis. Dragonsworn and Bard look interesting, cool and original to me. Yet, i don't advocate for them for the same reason.

    You're mistaken a piece for the whole. Blizzard did not put the "demon concept" (i.e. the dreadlord) into the death knight class. They just gave the class blood magic inspired on what the dreadlord could do in WC3. There is a difference.
    You're describing, exactly, what i said. Runic part of the Runemaster was integrated into the Death Knight (a piece of the whole) and not martial arts. Vampirism (blood spec) was integrated into the Death Knight, but not the other demonic features of the Dreadlord.

    Not really. We can't prove it either way.
    They told you it was put on hold. What do you call that?

    Because of this statement of yours:
    ]
    Which you then claimed "it is backed up by a Blizzard statement", hence me asking for a source.
    Then, it is just a confusion by me. Thought you were asking about the integration.

    They're not, though. They may have been inspired in the vampire concept, but they're not vampires:
    • the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse;
    • the venthyr do not "reproduce" by biting people;
    • the venthyr do not drink blood;
    • the venthyr are not undead.

    On the other hand, the san'layn are actually Warcraft's iteration of the vampire concept.
    San'layn were not bitten, either, but raised.
    Neither do San'layn reproduce like that.
    The San'layn do not drink blood, they siphon it.
    We could argue that Venthyr are undead, since Shadowlands denizens are dead, yet not inanimate.
    Who do you think Arthas got inspiration from, to create the San'layn? We know he based his Scourge architecture and army on Maldraxxus.

    Go read on Wretched. It is the abuse of arcane that turned high/blood elves into wretches, not the lack of it.
    True. my bad. It would make them sick, though:
    "Abstinence was not for everyone. While rangers could get by with minimal assistance, more magic-inclined elves who ceased their intake of magic became gravely ill."

    He didn't die. They become withered. But I'll concede this point.
    Weird. I had this notion that he died...
    Nevermind. The point is they wither away, like a Venthyr without anima would.

    We don't have to. It's all the sword. It's the power within the sword. And no, Tyrael becomes an archangel in name only at the end of Diablo 3.
    Then, what purpose does he serve as the Archangel of wisdom?

    Except you don't turn into an actual archangel, though. It's just the name of the PvP talents that boost the atonement ability.
    You do, actually. You, even, get wings (low-res one, though).
    Heck, the entire spec is based on angelic aspects:
    Archangel & Dark Archangel (mirroring Kyrian and Forsworn), Angelic Feather, Angelic Bulwark (removed), Glyph of Angels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    >literally sho a video where the maor part of the ability was the mobility the ability provided with bonus speed


    "iT wAs ThE iNvIsIbIlItY"

    let me guess, you played the RTS like you played the mmo, not playing orcs like you didn't play warriors at all? totally offtopic, but you sounds a night elf and/or human player so explain why you didn't understand orcs
    A guy playing a certain way doesn't apply to anyone and everything. The ability itself is the indicator, not the use of it by a specific person.

    Even by you backpedaling about "escape" methods is hilarious because heroic leap is literally an useful ability used to escape, the ones who never used to escape in a BG never played warrior at all, which is you.
    Once again, claiming how you use it and calling it an escape mechanism. In truth, it is a gap-closer ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    there is no such thing to talk about ""speed abilities" but mobility and how by being a high mobile class, they can yes, gain wind walk, don't try to backpedal this one, it would be prettier to just assume
    No, because that would give them invisibility. Picking a certain aspect of the ability and applying it to Warriors is no more than cherypicking.

    Lmao, now you work on blizzard to say what the "intention of ability", going literally against the people who make those guides, the damage is little to make no difference in the DPS is literally an ability to escape and go away or engage combat just like windwalk.
    Heroic Leap is a gap-closer or an AOE damage, and is used by Nordic archetypes like Barbarians and Mountain Kings, not Blademasters.

    And This is even funnier, cause hear me out, you are so over focused on nitpicking this that you failed completely to realize that windwalk is an ability that deals bonus damage when you hit someone while in the ability, meaning by your logic, is not an escape ability, but an engage one, to go to the enemy super fast and deal him bonus damage then start attacking him normally. Just like Heroic leap, but instead of jumping to the target, you would run fast towards him and attack.
    Funny. Because Stealth also have/had damage boosting talents:

    Master of Subtlety
    Attacks made while stealthed and for 5 seconds after breaking stealth cause an additional 10% damage.

    Nightstalker
    While Stealth is active, you move 20% faster and your abilities deal 50% more damage.

    Subterfuge
    Assassination
    Also causes Garrote to deal 125% increased damage and have no cooldown when used from Stealth or 3 sec after Stealth breaks.

    Meaning, my proposition early, to design windwalk as a talent ability to replace heroic leap is just amazing and completely make sense witht he flavor and thematic of warrior.
    It doesn't, really. Because you design it the way you want it to.

    But hey, like a madmani can see the future, i bet you are going to say "leaping" to the target and "running" to target, are totally different concepts, like the sun and moon, and just cannot be related at all, theya re totally different "thematics and flavors", and this cannot be done because is "nonsense"
    Two different archetype-associated abilities.

    the ability did 3 things and it was more important by the movement boost, the invisible and damage are nice but is not the core concept neither the main feature on the ability, already pointed in my other response.
    Once again, using your own interpretation.
    If it wasn't important, Blizzard would not give it the invisibility animation.

    I mean, still is tiresome how you guys want to decide what is important or not, but even that if we talk about the "fundamental identity" still is not the invisibility but the movement, it is how is stated in the lore, in the description of the ability and how people used then in the game/pvp
    We're tiring? We want the whole ability, while you want only part of it. The lore, clearly, states invisibility. They even gave it that animation. How people use it is, absolutely, irrelevant. There are videos of people using Druids with Moonfire only, does that make it the only important Druid spell?

    Like i said, wind walk could totally substitute heroic leap, instead of a jump, he would have a quickly boost of sprint that deals bonus damage when the warrior hit the target, with the heroic leap cd and in a short time of invisibility/invulnerability or blur/evasion, it will make the warrior feel even more like a blademaster in combat, going back and forth fast to kill enemies, just like they did in the RTS
    No, it can't. I would compare it more to the Warrior's charge, if you wanna be honest.

    Not sneaking and stealthing like a rogue, because that is not how they played in the RTS
    Yes, it is. Stop giving examples of certain people as evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    So you are going against what the pro-players/guide writers have said about the class gameplay, yep, must be their opinions as well.

    Tell me where is explicitly said those abilities are designed to ONLY "get you in to combat and keep it" and not "escape when necessary" show me, i dare you

    You, as a non warrior player, are again assuming things and trying to pass out your opinion as a fact(after acusing me of doing that), when we literally have evidence showing you wrong, heroic leap is for engage and escape purposes, if it was not, you would not be able to use in the middle of combat you know, like rogue normal stealth is not


    Taking people's guides as proof. You're digging your own grave.
    You can see it in the animation (angry face). it does damage, for crying out loud. That's for AOE purposes (to be used on a crowd of mobs/players) not escaping. Once again, ignoring parts of it for your own agenda.

    And then run away and not in a battlefield, i mean, it is the class rogue-ish thing no? sneaking into someone else room...assassinations, thefts, things like that, did you hear much rogues in a battlefield? what is the place of the rogue and the blademaster in a war? are you going to tell me they share the same spot? Blademasters "theme and fantasy" is like a rogue, sneaking into places or or in the heat of the battle like a true warrior he is? that is their "concept in lore" that people like to ignore

    thats how Blademasters do, they are fast, they get the target and keep fighting

    wind walk is not a all time invisibility like rogues and druids ones, is not a stealth for that purposes, is literally going fast to engage
    Neither. It is a samurai. A combination of the two.
    Wind Walk doesn't have to be constant stealth. If it was just a speed boost, it would be a sprint.

    You are making up, deceit is not in the quote it was GUILE = cunning
    Jesus Christ. How many times do we need to translate that word for you?
    Synonymous with deceive and duplicity. Look it up.

    Like, literally those things just further prove my point, wind walk like heroic leap are used to get away when you are about to die, any warrior do that. if you never pulled a bunch of elite creeps, charge to an enemy and heroic leap away letting then deal with the shit you never played a warrior before

    Hit-and-run tactics is what warriors do in BGs by all the time harassing camps or getting flags, My god dude
    Oh my god. Do you see yourself speaking?
    "it is true because how i, and others, use it".
    That is called self-interpretation. Learn it.
    Read First! (Very Important)
    Dear Scrapbot or Moderator:
    Before you, recklessly, hand out an infraction - if i, accidently, broke the rules without being aware, i would very much appreciate a warning first, in the manner of a green text/edit or a private message.
    Thank you in advance.

  20. #6440
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    doesn't DH also prove how they are bankrupt on new classes? it is only class with 2 specs and it has least amount of buttons in wow in general, not to mention it cannibalized demonology warlock to exist in first place, and demo became more like hunter BM but with magic instead of the unique spec it used to be
    Again with the cannibalization? It's been explained like thousand times.
    1.- Warlocks having Meta in the 1st place was the idea of the warlock designer on that time that wanted to cram DH into that class against the criteria of the rest of the designers.
    2.- WL Meta and DH Meta only share the name. They don't work the same, they don't feel the same.
    3.- Demo was always implied to be a master summoner, it was only when said designer tried to cram DH when they shifted it do a "become a demon", and then when DHs came in, it made the spec to have an identity crisis. Now it's back to what was supposed to be in the 1st place.
    4.- Demo is different from BM in that Demo playstyle is the "swarm with small pets" type, while BM is the "overpower with one strong pet"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Personally I agree and I don't think DH should set a precedent for class design, however it does show that a concept that is very specific, lacking depth and not based in any common fantasy class archetype can be made into a class.

    Doesn't mean every new class should follow that example since I think adding more DH-like (style over substance) classes (Dark Rangers for example) would be ultimately worse vs adding something with a bit more to it's concept like Tinkers or Dragonsworn
    Tinkers being more fleshed out that DR as a player class? I agree. But Dragonsworn? The only source is the class from the TTRPG. It's not referenced in any other Warcraft media, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    I recall reading a Dev interview where they did say there was a lot of internal discussion over what a third spec could be but they ultimately decided nothing fit and just went with 2 specs.
    Correct. It's the problem when the concept is so narrow, it has very little window to add things. The same problem applies to Dark Ranger

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