1. #6481
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Of course they aren't. But, they don't have to be. Claiming Helya, Odyn, Thorim and Loken aren't based on Hela, Odin, Thor and Loki is absurd. They are meant to represent those characters, with a slight deviation.
    And again, claiming Venthyr, Kyrian and Sylvar are not Angels, Vampire and Fauns - based is such a wild claim. They just differ from the source material, because not everything in game has to be a carbon copy of the mythos.
    I think Warcraft has a long history of doing *wink wink nudge nudge* with a lot of their homages to other materials, making them more of a parody than anything else. With the Venthyr (and other denizens of the Shadowlands) they did something a little different and went more towards the route of inspiration and doing something more with a straight face.

    When it comes to playability, yeah, a lot would have to change in order to really make it viable. The thing is, Blizzard loves to do just that, make large extremely convenient changes that allow for these things.

    But if they become playable and somebody were to ask me: "Hey Jellmoo, is there a race of Vampires in WoW I can play?"

    I'd have to say: "Nah fam." *wink wink nudge nudge* "No vampires here."

  2. #6482
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Really? you want to be show wrong again?

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior#Arms

    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...-and-playstyle

    If you try to say "it does not count because is PVP">>>

    https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...ria-raid-guide

    To think they would design an ability to jump around, with no restrictions of combat and not think it would not be able to flee, is just dumbfolding how you are saying those nonsenses with a straight face to salvage this argument, is literally double standart to not admit is similar to how wind walk is both an engage and a escape, both ability providing mobility.
    So you're taking the opinions of players and using them as if they're confirmation of your opinion regarding Blizzard's intent on developing the Heroic Leap ability? Just look at the whole theme of the warrior, the whole theme of the warrior's ability kit, the ability naming theme, etc. The warrior class is about getting into combat and staying in combat.

    What you're doing here is saying that Windwalk is not a mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage, but a stealth ability
    It's not a "mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage" because the Wind Walk ability itself does not deal damage.

    HAHAHA oh my god, " "when i literally said they don't have any heals i didn't mean they didn't have any heals, what i REALLY meant is they didn't heal themselves with holy light, besides never saying that", no you keep embarrassing yourself, Yet you still don't admit you were wrong despite being showed the ability who literally does not require an enemy target because second wind fully heal thens up,
    It's a small boost to natural healing. Every character has natural healing. Not to mention, whereas a class with an actual healing ability can recover 15-30% of their health in two seconds, the warrior needs to first exit combat, and then wait six seconds, to get 6% of their health back. Face it: the warrior's main healing ability requires him to be in the middle of the fray, killing enemies. The warrior class is designed to stay in combat, not avoid it.

    And to think, you wanted to get by the tanged by trying to keep repeating the same false argument of "blademasters concept revolves around stealth and deceit
    Dude. It's downright amazing how dishonest you're being here considering you were the one who made that original quote about blademasters being masters of stealth and deceit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they literally still said "Though blademasters are masters of stealth and guile,they value personal honor above all else.

    not really, heroic leap only does damage if you activelly perform a leap on someone
    It always deals damage, regardless if there is a target to take the damage or not. "Nearby targets" is not a conditional. You can't "heroic leap" next to a mob and not deal damage. But you can Wind Walk next to a mob and not deal any damage to it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Drinking red anima is the most obvious reference to that.
    But vengeance demon hunter having wings when they glide is somehow not a reference to Illidan?

    "Front runner" & "almost made the cut" sounds like you implied they had a, pretty, good notion of it.
    No, it doesn't. It means exactly what it means: that the runemaster concept was one of the top three choices to become the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's class choice. Just like Blizzard said it happened.

    Because one has a clear pattern and the other don't?
    That's not a good reason. This is a case of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses". You're literally admitting that you're dismissing the vanilla classes because they don't fit this perceived "pattern" you subjectively observed.

    *facepalm*

    You've gotta be, really, "fingers in your ear, don't wanna hear it" guy, if you claim that they are not vampires,
    I've already laid out the reasons why I don't think the venthyr are vampires. But I'll repeat them: the venthyr don't drink blood, the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, and the venthyr do not "reproduce" (i.e. spread their curse) by biting people. While vampires do all that. And those vampires exist in Warcraft: they're called the san'layn.

    Are Tauren not Minotaurs because they stray from the traditional depiction?
    Considering the popular mythos of the "minotaur" is of the body of a human and the head of an ox, not full-blown anthropomorphic oxen like the tauren, I would say, yes, the tauren are not minotaurs.

    *Sigh*

    Different iterations.
    Where only one of them is an actual vampire.

    Then, it is settled. It is in your eyes.
    Just to remind you: your own eyes are not objective, either. Everything you're writing here, it's also just your opinion.

    Trolls in folklore were never jamaican, for example.
    And I never claimed they are. So what?

    Everyone with ears and eyes can see that the Venthyr are based on vampires.
    And I never disagreed on that. I only said that venthyr themselves are not vampires.

    The fact that you can't define them otherwise shows it.
    I don't have to define them as "something else" to show that they're not vampires. For example, I don't have to know what language the word "saudade" comes from to know it's not part of the english language.

    Kyrians aren't angels? There's no divide between Kyrian (Archangel) and Forsworn (Dark Archangel)?
    I never said that. I said there are no "archangel/dark archangel divide" because they're not angels or dark angels. I never said there is no kyrian/forsworn divide. Again: just because they seem to represent a certain concept, does not mean they are said concept they're referencing.
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  3. #6483
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I think Warcraft has a long history of doing *wink wink nudge nudge* with a lot of their homages to other materials, making them more of a parody than anything else.
    There's nothing parodic about WoW races. They took mythological creatures and applied real-world cultures to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But vengeance demon hunter having wings when they glide is somehow not a reference to Illidan?
    It's not, necessarily, vengeance related. It is a general ability.

    No, it doesn't. It means exactly what it means: that the runemaster concept was one of the top three choices to become the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's class choice. Just like Blizzard said it happened.
    And when they realized it wasn't, they ditched it to be part of the Death Knight. For all we know, the whole thing might have been a 20 minute meeting.

    That's not a good reason. This is a case of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses". You're literally admitting that you're dismissing the vanilla classes because they don't fit this perceived "pattern" you subjectively observed.
    No, because i'm analyzing expansion classes. Quite specific.

    I've already laid out the reasons why I don't think the venthyr are vampires. But I'll repeat them: the venthyr don't drink blood, the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, and the venthyr do not "reproduce" (i.e. spread their curse) by biting people. While vampires do all that. And those vampires exist in Warcraft: they're called the san'layn.
    Have you considered the fact that WoW had to compete with the Skyrim vampire expansion?


    Doing the same as they did would not have been beneficial for their revenues.
    Just like they didn't repeat Diablo's angels and demons, or Starcraft's Protoss.

    Considering the popular mythos of the "minotaur" is of the body of a human and the head of an ox, not full-blown anthropomorphic oxen like the tauren, I would say, yes, the tauren are not minotaurs.




    They're just minotaurs with a native american culture. They even received human fingers with their updated model.

    Where only one of them is an actual vampire.
    Sure thing, buddy.
    Are trolls in-game not trolls because they don't behave like folklore trolls?

    And I never claimed they are. So what?
    So, they're not trolls, according to your logic.

    And I never disagreed on that. I only said that venthyr themselves are not vampires.
    -_-

    That's being a little bit petty.

    I don't have to define them as "something else" to show that they're not vampires. For example, I don't have to know what language the word "saudade" comes from to know it's not part of the english language.
    It would help your argument, though.

    I never said that. I said there are no "archangel/dark archangel divide" because they're not angels or dark angels. I never said there is no kyrian/forsworn divide. Again: just because they seem to represent a certain concept, does not mean they are said concept they're referencing.
    They are. Just with a Greek culture.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-09 at 06:06 PM.
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  4. #6484
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    There's nothing parodic about WoW races. They took mythological creatures and applied real-world cultures to them.
    Ooooo, I don't know about that. I wasn't talking specifically about races, but I do think they parody a ton with the races they put in. Whether it be Tauren and all the jokes about getting high, Pandaren's entire story, or the Goblin aesthetic (especially in Kezan) they have put quite a bit of parody and satire in the races they've implemented this far.

  5. #6485
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Ooooo, I don't know about that. I wasn't talking specifically about races, but I do think they parody a ton with the races they put in. Whether it be Tauren and all the jokes about getting high, Pandaren's entire story, or the Goblin aesthetic (especially in Kezan) they have put quite a bit of parody and satire in the races they've implemented this far.
    If you view it that way.
    I see them as very seriously depicted.
    There's nothing wrong with a bit of humor. Doesn't mean they're a joke, though.
    Unlike certain depictions in HotS or Hearthstone.
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  6. #6486
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    It's not, necessarily, vengeance related. It is a general ability.
    Perhaps because the whole class, itself, was based off on Illidan's concept?

    And when they realized it wasn't, they ditched it to be part of the Death Knight. For all we know, the whole thing might have been a 20 minute meeting.
    Maybe. It may have taken only two minutes to decide which class to put in. Or an hour. Or an entire day's worth of discussion. Because we don't know what was the disqualifying factors were.

    No, because i'm analyzing expansion classes. Quite specific.
    But why exclude the vanilla classes? If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, fine, but you have to give a reason as to why those examples don't matter. Otherwise it feels you're excluding them solely because they don't fit your narrative, here.

    Have you considered the fact that WoW had to compete with the Skyrim vampire expansion?
    No, I haven't, because I don't have to. You're literally going the conspiracy theory route if your argument now is "WoW had to compete with Skyrim".

    They're just minotaurs with a native american culture. They even received human fingers with their updated model.
    The only connection to minotaurs is that they're oxen/cows. They have nothing else minotaur-like from the popular mythos.

    Sure thing, buddy.
    Venthyr only have one characteristic that is vampire-like: the weakness to light. They have nothing else. San'layn, on the other hand, have all the other characteristics of vampires. And their previous queen, Blood-QueenLana'thel, could actually make more vampires with her bite.

    Are trolls in-game not trolls because they don't behave like folklore trolls?
    Whataboutism, here?

    So, they're not trolls, according to your logic.
    You are being very dishonest here, considering that was not my answer. Also, this isn't a dichotomy. If I have not made a claim that trolls are jamaican, that doesn't mean I'm claiming that trolls are not jamaican.

    -_-

    That's being a little bit petty.
    No. You accused me of claiming that venthyr are not based on vampires. Which is false. That is a claim I never made. I just said that venthyr are not vampires, not that they're not based on vampires. Completely different claims.

    It would help your argument, though.
    Not really. I don't need to know every single language in the entire world to know if a word does not belong to a language I know. I don't need to know which country the name "Lisboa" comes from to know it's not name of the capital of any of the US states.

    They are. Just with a Greek culture.
    In your opinion, though. That doesn't make it a fact, just hope you're aware of that.
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  7. #6487
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    If you view it that way.
    I see them as very seriously depicted.
    There's nothing wrong with a bit of humor. Doesn't mean they're a joke, though.
    Unlike certain depictions in HotS or Hearthstone.
    I think it's an interesting discussion, but to be honest a debate about the origins and level of seriousness on display for WoW races feels pretty off topic for a thread about potential new classes.

    So... Um... Venthyr Necromancers?

  8. #6488
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Because you keep claiming the same things, just with different people. I told you i feel obliged to respond to those claims. Yet, if you don't want me to, then i'll stop.
    i never made the claim they are the same thing, that is making shit up
    Mountain Kings are sort of nordic/scottish barbarians. Can't you see the similarities?
    Barbarians in media are unarmored fighters wielding 2h weapons, Garrosh is more barbarian than a dwarf, did you never watched Conan the barbarian? rofl

    You've got a point. Yet, both are based on a 'surprise attack'.

    If you do not wish for people to jump into the conversation, refrain from making wild, personal claims.

    you literally made that shit up, i never said they are the same thing, how is me "making wild and personal claims" are you high?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you're taking the opinions of players and using them as if they're confirmation of your opinion regarding Blizzard's intent on developing the Heroic Leap ability? Just look at the whole theme of the warrior, the whole theme of the warrior's ability kit, the ability naming theme, etc. The warrior class is about getting into combat and staying in combat.
    unless you can PROOVE that "blizzard intend and design" you are just making things up, again, and this is, pure double standarts coming from someone so adamant to say people should not take their opinion as fact, this is literally you, taking your opinion, personal and biased one, as fact, if an ability let then jump, they can jump for any reasons, including to flee, there is literally, nothing say it was not designed for it, otherwise the ability would be indisponible while in combat or when you have low hp

    Another double standart is trying to talk how the ability is "named" when wind walk is not called "invisible walk" or "stealth walk", you don't know warriors and don't know blademasters, simple as that.

    It's not a "mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage" because the Wind Walk ability itself does not deal damage.
    It is literally an ability to increase your speed, engage an opponent and deal bonus damage before it wears off, stop pretending, if you are telling me, with a straight face the ability is designed pure for the invisibility, i will not be able to keep a straight face
    It's a small boost to natural healing. Every character has natural healing. Not to mention, whereas a class with an actual healing ability can recover 15-30% of their health in two seconds, the warrior needs to first exit combat, and then wait six seconds, to get 6% of their health back. Face it: the warrior's main healing ability requires him to be in the middle of the fray, killing enemies. The warrior class is designed to stay in combat, not avoid it.
    in your opinion, of course

    and this is just a malabarism trying to hide the fact that you thought the only healing thing warriors had was victory rush, let me guess, you played an alt in WoD and think you know better than anyone else.

    Dude. It's downright amazing how dishonest you're being here considering you were the one who made that original quote about blademasters being masters of stealth and deceit:
    I am dishonest? considering its you who are literally ignoring 90% the rest of the blademasters quotes, lore and abilities to focus on this one and even distort things when the quote say guile and not deceit?

    It always deals damage, regardless if there is a target to take the damage or not. "Nearby targets" is not a conditional. You can't "heroic leap" next to a mob and not deal damage. But you can Wind Walk next to a mob and not deal any damage to it.
    if you leap next to no one, it does no deal damage, just like if you chose not attack while in wind walk, you are literally grasping at straws
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-05-09 at 08:57 PM.

  9. #6489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    unless you can PROOVE that "blizzard intend and design" you are just making things up, again,
    Oh, so you can freely engage in the "absolutist fallacy" and it's all fine and dandy, but then when you accuse me of such, it's somehow a bad thing? Sounds like double standards~♫

    Also, I do recall a conversation of ours where you died on the hill that the Kul'Tiran allied race was entirely developed during a single X.X.5 patch, and not that Blizzard has been doing it throughout all of BfA, like the developer interviews and datamining have shown. So your opinion = fact, and other people's facts = opinion?

    Another double standart is trying to talk how the ability is "named" when wind walk is not called "invisible walk" or "stealth walk",
    It's not double-standard. Instead, you're doing a false equivalence, because none of us are making an argument about "wind walk" being about invisibility because of its name.

    you don't know warriors
    I do.

    and don't know blademasters,
    I do. You don't.

    simple as that.
    If it was "simple as that", you'd have learned that stating your opinions as fact is wrong. But it's not that simple, is it? You refuse to admit that you're wrong in that regard.

    It is literally an ability to increase your speed, engage an opponent and deal bonus damage before it wears off, stop pretending,
    If that was the intention of the ability, it would function like the warrior's charge, only giving you extra damage for the next attack instead of rooting the target. But it doesn't. Instead, it makes you invisible.

    if you are telling me, with a straight face the ability is designed pure for the invisibility, i will not be able to keep a straight face
    I doubt you've kept a straight face for our entire conversation, but that's neither here nor there.

    in your opinion, of course
    And this somehow debunks my argument... how? Oh, because my opinion is "just an opinion", while your opinion is fact? Is that it?

    I am dishonest? considering its you who are literally ignoring 90% the rest of the blademasters quotes, lore and abilities to focus on this one and even distort things when the quote say guile and not deceit?
    Once again, for the people in the back~♫

    if you leap next to no one, it does no deal damage, just like if you chose not attack while in wind walk, you are literally grasping at straws
    If you heroic leap and land next to a mob, you'll deal damage, regardless if you have it targeted or not. Wind Walk will never deal damage to anyone, regardless if you have them targeted or not. What will deal damage is whatever OTHER attack that you do against the enemy. Wind Walk will only increase its damage.
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  10. #6490
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Perhaps because the whole class, itself, was based off on Illidan's concept?
    Yes, he was the premise. Mainly, for the Havoc Demon Hunter. Saying Vengeance is unoriginal is like saying Mistweaver and Windwalker aren't because they can use brews.

    Maybe. It may have taken only two minutes to decide which class to put in. Or an hour. Or an entire day's worth of discussion. Because we don't know what was the disqualifying factors were.
    Familiarity, most likely.
    And less canon sources to rely on.

    But why exclude the vanilla classes? If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, fine, but you have to give a reason as to why those examples don't matter. Otherwise it feels you're excluding them solely because they don't fit your narrative, here.
    Why? because they're not part of an expansion. That's like examining the addition of races, and including the base ones.

    No, I haven't, because I don't have to. You're literally going the conspiracy theory route if your argument now is "WoW had to compete with Skyrim".
    There's no conspiracy in that. If you're oblivious to the fact that gaming companies compete with each other on a daily basis, that's on you. Why do you think they synchronize patches (+week or two) with other games' content? Heck, Shadowlands and FFXIV's Shadowbringers were compared all the time. You, really, think releasing identical content would grant them more subscribers?

    The only connection to minotaurs is that they're oxen/cows. They have nothing else minotaur-like from the popular mythos.
    Exactly. Part humanoid, part bovine.
    They took the mythological creature and gave it a real-life culture (native american).

    Venthyr only have one characteristic that is vampire-like: the weakness to light. They have nothing else. San'layn, on the other hand, have all the other characteristics of vampires. And their previous queen, Blood-QueenLana'thel, could actually make more vampires with her bite.
    Do you think Vampires were depicted in mythos as former elves?
    Of course they weren't. That's called creative directing.

    Whataboutism, here?
    -_-

    If those are the criterias for your vampire, then they should be the criterias for the other races. Don't try to wiggle out of it.

    You are being very dishonest here, considering that was not my answer. Also, this isn't a dichotomy. If I have not made a claim that trolls are jamaican, that doesn't mean I'm claiming that trolls are not jamaican.
    It means that you claim WoW trolls aren't real trolls.

    No. You accused me of claiming that venthyr are not based on vampires. Which is false. That is a claim I never made. I just said that venthyr are not vampires, not that they're not based on vampires. Completely different claims.
    Based on vampires, and vampires alone, makes them vampires. Just a different iteration. Not everything has to be true to the source material.

    Not really. I don't need to know every single language in the entire world to know if a word does not belong to a language I know. I don't need to know which country the name "Lisboa" comes from to know it's not name of the capital of any of the US states.
    "I don't need to see the earth from the outside to know that is is flat". -flat earthers.

    In your opinion, though. That doesn't make it a fact, just hope you're aware of that.
    *Sigh*

    So, nothing is the way it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I think it's an interesting discussion, but to be honest a debate about the origins and level of seriousness on display for WoW races feels pretty off topic for a thread about potential new classes.

    So... Um... Venthyr Necromancers?
    Blood Death Knights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i never made the claim they are the same thing, that is making shit up
    Again. Language barrier. I wrote "claiming the same things" (meaning, using the same arguments). You interpreted it as "claiming they are the same things".

    Barbarians in media are unarmored fighters wielding 2h weapons, Garrosh is more barbarian than a dwarf, did you never watched Conan the barbarian? rofl
    You're generalizing all Barbarians. I'm talking about nordic/scottish ones.

    you literally made that shit up, i never said they are the same thing, how is me "making wild and personal claims" are you high?
    Again. Language barrier. How did you get to the "same thing", regarding what i said?
    I said you claim the same things with other people.

    I'm trying real hard not to reply to your lelenia's comments.
    1. Wind Walk doesn't need to be named stealth or invisibility. It comes from being light on your feet that you appear to be walking on wind.
    2. You're ignoring the invisibility aspect of it, on purpose, like it's not there. Unlike you, we're not claiming for invisibility only, but that both invisibility and speed are important to the ability.
    3. Guile is, also, deceit. Look it up.
    4. That is an absurd logic to use for Heroic Leap. If you did something, in real-life, and no one was there to witness it, did it really happen? (that's you logic). The AOE damage is there for a reason (and, also, the angry animation).
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-10 at 07:23 AM.
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  11. #6491
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Blood Death Knights.
    Well, I was keeping with the theme of the thread and talking about a new class, but to your point I understand the blood theme, but I'm not sure how I feel about Venthyr tanks. They seem awfully aristocratic, by and large, to be the guy up from getting his face caved in.

    Another interesting point is: Can Venthyr even become undead?

  12. #6492
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Well, I was keeping with the theme of the thread and talking about a new class, but to your point I understand the blood theme, but I'm not sure how I feel about Venthyr tanks. They seem awfully aristocratic, by and large, to be the guy up from getting his face caved in.

    Another interesting point is: Can Venthyr even become undead?
    Yes. Technically they just need to step into the living plane. "Undead" in WoW is just like "Extraplanar" on D&D, you are considered like that just when you're not in your natural plane.

  13. #6493
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Well, I was keeping with the theme of the thread and talking about a new class, but to your point I understand the blood theme, but I'm not sure how I feel about Venthyr tanks. They seem awfully aristocratic, by and large, to be the guy up from getting his face caved in.

    Another interesting point is: Can Venthyr even become undead?
    They are, already, dead. Vampires, in myth, are undead creatures.

    Blood
    "A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain in the face of an enemy onslaught." - seems right to me.
    It wasn't, always, a tanking spec. Up until cata, each spec could tank and Frost was considered the best at it.


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  14. #6494
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Familiarity, most likely.
    And less canon sources to rely on.
    I don't believe any of those were deciding factors. Otherwise, I don't think the runemaster would even become one of the "top three" choices.

    Why? because they're not part of an expansion. That's like examining the addition of races, and including the base ones.
    And I stand by my opinion that we should include the base races in that discussion unless an actual, tangible difference is given to exclude them. Which you haven't done for the vanilla classes so far. If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, you have to demonstrate some important detail about their design process that is sufficiently different than the expansion classes. You have to show how designing the expansion classes is any different than designing the vanilla classes.

    There's no conspiracy in that.
    Yes, there is. It is purely "conspiracy theory" and nothing more to say that "WoW is competing with Skyrim" and therefore WoW design decisions are based on this competition. And to further exemplify how nonsensical is this conspiracy theory, Shadowlands was released in 2020, while Dawnguard, Skyrim's expansion that dealt with vampires, was released in 2012. Eight years prior.

    Exactly. Part humanoid, part bovine.
    And nothing more. Taurens are not minotaurs. They reference the mythos, but they're not minotaurs. Just like venthyr are not vampires while still referencing vampires.

    Do you think Vampires were depicted in mythos as former elves?
    Of course they weren't. That's called creative directing.
    False equivalence, because "vampire" is not a race, but a blood curse. Any race can become a vampire if another vampire decides to spread the curse to them.

    -_-

    If those are the criterias for your vampire, then they should be the criterias for the other races. Don't try to wiggle out of it.
    You'd have a point if they were called "vampires" instead of "venthyr".

    It means that you claim WoW trolls aren't real trolls.
    I just explained you how this isn't a dichotomy. Me not claiming "trolls are trolls" is not me claiming "trolls are not trolls". There is a third position here, usually called "I don't care/I don't know".

    Based on vampires, and vampires alone, makes them vampires.
    No. No, it doesn't. Referencing one thing and only one thing does not make them the exact same as those things. I've already demonstrated this to you: venthyr do not drink blood, venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, the venthyr's curse is not passed on through biting their victims.

    "I don't need to see the earth from the outside to know that is is flat". -flat earthers.
    That doesn't even come close to the same ballpark. Let me explain to you how this comparison of yours is absurd, using our examples: if we're discussing if a certain word belongs to a certain language or not, all I need to know is the language we're talking about, not the other languages. In my previous example, I only need to know the english language to know that the word "saudade" is not part of it. I don't need to know where a word comes from to know it doesn't belong to the english language. But for your example, we're talking about the entire planet, so we need to know the entire planet, hence why "see the Earth from outside" is a requirement.

    *Sigh*

    So, nothing is the way it seems?
    Maybe. Maybe not. The point is: we don't know.

    Blood Death Knights.
    the death knight class is not the necromancer class.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  15. #6495
    Popping into this thread every few pages like:


  16. #6496
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    They are, already, dead. Vampires, in myth, are undead creatures.
    Which feels at least as clunky as Forsaken Death Knights. Is there an end to the cycle of undeath? Can something be raised into undeath an infinite number of times?

    Blood
    "A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain in the face of an enemy onslaught." - seems right to me.
    It wasn't, always, a tanking spec. Up until cata, each spec could tank and Frost was considered the best at it.
    Oh I totally miss the days of Blood dps, it was awesome. Unfortunately right now Blood is a dedicated tanking spec and I can't help but feel that tanking just doesn't feel very Venthyr (totally my opinion, I know). They seem so aristocratic, subtle and snooty. Them being the guy to stand there and get smacked in the face just feels little weird to me. They really feel like the kind of dude that stands back and lets others do the dirty work for them.

    Which is why I tossed out Necromancer.

  17. #6497
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't believe any of those were deciding factors. Otherwise, I don't think the runemaster would even become one of the "top three" choices.
    Then, i'd like to hear your reasons.

    And I stand by my opinion that we should include the base races in that discussion unless an actual, tangible difference is given to exclude them. Which you haven't done for the vanilla classes so far. If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, you have to demonstrate some important detail about their design process that is sufficiently different than the expansion classes. You have to show how designing the expansion classes is any different than designing the vanilla classes.
    It is in the word "Expansion".
    For once, they didn't need to match the classes to the theme of the base game, like they do with expansions.
    Secondly, they obviously tried to cover the basic, elementary and fundamental RPG archetypes with vanilla. Expansions give a room to expand beyond them.

    Yes, there is. It is purely "conspiracy theory" and nothing more to say that "WoW is competing with Skyrim" and therefore WoW design decisions are based on this competition. And to further exemplify how nonsensical is this conspiracy theory, Shadowlands was released in 2020, while Dawnguard, Skyrim's expansion that dealt with vampires, was released in 2012. Eight years prior.
    What?
    Video published 26th of may, 2020.
    I meant to say Elder Scrolls online: The Dark Heart of Skyrim and Greymoor.

    And nothing more. Taurens are not minotaurs. They reference the mythos, but they're not minotaurs. Just like venthyr are not vampires while still referencing vampires.
    *Sigh*

    This isn't going anywhere.
    They are (just given a native american culture). Just like Orcs are orcs, Trolls are trolls, Undeads are undeads, Elves are elves, Goblins are goblins Dwarves are dwarves, Gnomes are gnomes and Worgen are werewolves.

    False equivalence, because "vampire" is not a race, but a blood curse. Any race can become a vampire if another vampire decides to spread the curse to them.
    So are undeads. And, we still have an undead race. Moreover, San'layn were risen by the Lich King, not bitten. It doesn't matter, either, because they were never depicted in myth as anything but former humans. Not former elves, not former dwarves, not former orcs nor former trolls.

    You'd have a point if they were called "vampires" instead of "venthyr".
    *Facepalm*

    It's a name.
    Just like San'layn aren't named vampires.
    You'd have to go really low to use that as an argument.
    "The name "venthyr" is similar to the Ventrue, a prominent vampire clan from Vampire: The Masquerade. It's also similar to a number of Eastern European names for vampires or vampire-like creatures, such as Dhamphir."

    I just explained you how this isn't a dichotomy. Me not claiming "trolls are trolls" is not me claiming "trolls are not trolls". There is a third position here, usually called "I don't care/I don't know".
    Exactly.
    Your entire argument is based on lack of knowledge or any will to back up your statements. If you claim something, you better give explanations when it doesn't account for other cases. Otherwise, you look too biased.

    No. No, it doesn't. Referencing one thing and only one thing does not make them the exact same as those things. I've already demonstrated this to you: venthyr do not drink blood, venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, the venthyr's curse is not passed on through biting their victims.
    Never claimed they were exactly the same thing. They don't have to. Trolls don't live in caves or turn to stone with daylight. They're still trolls.

    That doesn't even come close to the same ballpark. Let me explain to you how this comparison of yours is absurd, using our examples: if we're discussing if a certain word belongs to a certain language or not, all I need to know is the language we're talking about, not the other languages. In my previous example, I only need to know the english language to know that the word "saudade" is not part of it. I don't need to know where a word comes from to know it doesn't belong to the english language. But for your example, we're talking about the entire planet, so we need to know the entire planet, hence why "see the Earth from outside" is a requirement.
    Then, "the moon is made out of cheese". "I can see it from here." Are you aware of all the words in the english language?

    Maybe. Maybe not. The point is: we don't know.
    Orcs are not orcs, Trolls are not trolls, undeads are not undeads, elves are not elves, Goblins are not goblins, Dwarves are not dwarves, Gnomes are not gnomes and Worgen are not werewolves because Mr. lelenia here is not satisfied with their depictions. Ok...

    the death knight class is not the necromancer class.

    I suggested him another thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Which feels at least as clunky as Forsaken Death Knights. Is there an end to the cycle of undeath? Can something be raised into undeath an infinite number of times?
    I don't know how this has anything to do with what i said.
    You don't need to raise them a second time. They're part of the Shadowlands, already - the land of the dead. Besides, we don't have a Lich King, as of right now, to do this. Let me remind you that Arthas wasn't raised, but converted.

    Oh I totally miss the days of Blood dps, it was awesome. Unfortunately right now Blood is a dedicated tanking spec and I can't help but feel that tanking just doesn't feel very Venthyr (totally my opinion, I know). They seem so aristocratic, subtle and snooty. Them being the guy to stand there and get smacked in the face just feels little weird to me. They really feel like the kind of dude that stands back and lets others do the dirty work for them.

    Which is why I tossed out Necromancer.
    Are necromancers blood practitioners?
    Because i remember them being exclusively Death practitioners.
    Besides, Blood Death Knights don't use a shield and you will, probably, be able to transmog your armor to their heritage armor.
    Even Renathal uses a sword:
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-10 at 05:54 PM.
    Read First! (Very Important)
    Dear Scrapbot or Moderator:
    Before you, recklessly, hand out an infraction - if i, accidently, broke the rules without being aware, i would very much appreciate a warning first, in the manner of a green text/edit or a private message.
    Thank you in advance.

  18. #6498
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Again. Language barrier. I wrote "claiming the same things" (meaning, using the same arguments). You interpreted it as "claiming they are the same things".
    This is not "language barrier" you said something i didn't, plain and simple

    You're generalizing all Barbarians. I'm talking about nordic/scottish ones.
    They are not the "barbarian" media, see diablo barbarians too, mountain kings are definitely not "barbarian" archetype.



    1. Wind Walk doesn't need to be named stealth or invisibility. It comes from being light on your feet that you appear to be walking on wind.
    No it don't, there is nothing saying "being light on your feet", this it you making up, they are not being "light" they are running fast, if invisibility was the main point they would focus on it on the name and on the lore, but they literally say they just apepar to be

    2. You're ignoring the invisibility aspect of it, on purpose, like it's not there. Unlike you, we're not claiming for invisibility only, but that both invisibility and speed are important to the ability.
    Nope, im not ignoring im literally saying is not as much important as you make up to be, you literally said before the invisibility was more important because you think it is.
    3. Guile is, also, deceit. Look it up.
    "also" being, is not an argument, words have different synonyms and some of then don't work the same because context, guile in this context is cunning, not being a trickster, because is how blademasters are in their lore.

    4. That is an absurd logic to use for Heroic Leap. If you did something, in real-life, and no one was there to witness it, did it really happen? (that's you logic). The AOE damage is there for a reason (and, also, the angry animation).
    the bonus damage from wind walk is there all the time too, regardless if you attack people or not, rly, you guys not realizing your own double standards is the only thing saving this conversation of not being 100% boring

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    snip
    Seeing how you are red hearing again, can prove no one of your claims about blizzard design and still don't acknowledge and/or admit you have no idea about what you are talking warriors after committing tons of mistakes, i will put your biased and personal opinion next to the dumpster here for the next time you say the same about tinkers and engineer, cause is truly amusing the double standarts used.

  19. #6499
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I don't know how this has anything to do with what i said.
    You don't need to raise them a second time. They're part of the Shadowlands, already - the land of the dead. Besides, we don't have a Lich King, as of right now, to do this. Let me remind you that Arthas wasn't raised, but converted.
    Well, currently all playable Death Knights are individuals that were killed and then raised by a Lich King. Now, can we make some new fangled system that allows for Venthyr to join their ranks? Sure, anything's possible. My point is that within the confines of the current system, a Venthyr Death Knight is clunky at best. You'd have a mortal living their life, dying, going to the Shadowlands and becoming a Venthyr, then dying yet again and being raised into undeath as a Death Knight.

    It's not exactly elegant.

    Are necromancers blood practitioners?
    Necromancers aren't currently playable, so there isn't an answer for it. I mean, they obviously could be.

    Because i remember them being exclusively Death practitioners.
    Besides, Blood Death Knights don't use a shield and you will, probably, be able to transmog your armor to their heritage armor.
    I mean, Monks don't use shields either, but they don't exactly fit the Monk framework. Besides, it's the tank role that I find a weird fit for Venthyr. Nothing about them really screams tank to me. My impression of them is that this is why they have the Stone Legion. To do this sort of thing for them.

  20. #6500
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I mean, still is tiresome how you guys want to decide what is important or not
    The irony here is hilarious.

    My 2 cents: The Blademaster is not a playable class that is represented in WoW. I can RP a class that looks like one, and has SOME of the same abilities, but I cannot play a BLADEMASTER, I can only RP as one.

    That's not the same thing.

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