If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[username993720]

Until we hear about them, Blizzard has done nothing with that plot in Shadowlands.

And as I pointed out, all Dark Rangers other than the unnamed Loyalists are joining the Horde. Alliance has no access to Dark Rangers. This is a narrative dead end. Doesn't matter if Summermoon and Velonara train a new generation of Forsaken, this is still a Horde only class concept in practice, because the Alliance has no reason to accept the Fordaken or the Loyalists at all.

They had a chance to have Night Elf Dark Rangers join the Night Elves, but Shadows Rising makes it clear they do not want to, and openly blame Elune for forsaking them. You suggest Tyrande would accept them back, but that's an unlikely theory because they don't want to be part of the Alliance. They consider themselves Forsaken.

Does it have to be current to be an option? Lilian stepped up out of the blue after Sylvanas' departure, Rokhan after Vol'jin's and Gazlowe after Gallywix's. They weren't so much set up.

Saying it is a dead end is like claiming Blademasters would be Horde only because they are primarily Orcs, Shadow Hunters as well because they are primarily Trolls, Wardens and Priestesses of the Moon Alliance only because they are primarily Night elves. Monk is primarily associated with the Pandaren, yet everyone is able to learn it. The thing is, if you really believe it will remain a Horde thing only, you are truly delusional.

Then, i ask again: what purpose do they serve? Why do we need Night elf Dark Rangers and Dark Wardens, specifically, and not any other [race] Dark Ranger or dark [class]?

Er, that's not how Blizzard plans new classes. Again, we have literal blogs by developers showing us how they design new classes, and even they don't know what will be made into a class because everything has to be collectively decided on, not planned decades in advance.

It makes no sense that a hint exists years in advance when they actively haven't planned it until the time comes to develop a new class. This isn't the MCU we are talking about.

Is that so?
Draconic themes in WotlK led to Cataclysm.
Human and Orcish themes in MoP led to WoD.
Demonic themes in WoD led to Legion.
Faction and titanic themes in Legion led to BfA.
BfA's Light and Void themes have yet to lead us to an appropriate expansion, but it is due.
Shadowlands' Cataclysm themes will lead us to a Dragon Isles expansion at some point.

So what? That doesn't deny their possibility. Runemasters had nothing to do with the Scourge and the Lich King, yet they were one of the three possibilities for an expansion class.

So, basically, we can consider every class concept and their mother as possible, but only the ones that match, actually, get implemented. So, Demon Hunter it is

I take it you didn't play Azsuna's main questline? The Court of Farondis' fate as ghosts was entirely done by Azsuna, and the Queen herself makes an appearance.

Oh, yeah, i remember that... as a shadowy figure. Nothing major.

One: she was not set up like him. Second: Garrosh was the "big bad". Sylvanas was not supposed to be the "big bad". She's just a cog in the machine of the Jailer's plans.

No? you just established that he featured, prominently, for 3 expansions in a row:
Elected as Warchief in Cataclysm.
Caused a faction war in MoP.
Led us through a portal to another reality.
Basically, a corrupted faction leader.
Now, let's look at Sylvanas:
Features, prominently, for 3 expansions in a row.
Appointed warchief in Legion.
Caused a faction war in BfA.
Led us through a rift to another dimension.
Basically, a corrupted faction leader.

So, not giving her the same "end boss" treatment as Garrosh seems quite wasteful.

Considering I haven't done that, at all, for all these 10+ years I've been in this site, aside from making a fan concept for a necromancer class, I'll ask you to refrain from pretending you know what I'd do.

Jeez... 10 years? I can't imagine how much of Teriz you had to put up with.

I guess you're not a necromancer fanatic as you seem to be.

Vol'jin is no longer a leader of the Horde, and hasn't been for two expansions' worth of time, now. As for Talanji, she doesn't like Bwonsamdi. Not to mention that she, along with the leaders of the allied races, have basically been forgotten past BfA, so far. Did you notice none of them were present in Icecrown for the quest-chain that takes you to Shadowlands for the first time?

Yet, we still communicated with him as a spirit.
Yet, the question was who could have led us. Not what happened in the end. So, she's still a possible option.

Because Sylvanas, up to this point, has been nothing but a PoS with zero redeemable qualities. And to make things worse, now Blizzard seemingly has decided to give her a semblance of consciousness and guilt over what happened to Anduin. By her own hand, no less.

Further increasing the resemblance to Garrosh, who had some humanity in Cataclysm.

Because he didn't need to. Gul'dan was an already well-established character with well-established motivations, and the consequences of his doings still lingered in WoW: Felwood, for example, was corrupted because of the demonic power of his skull. The tomb of Sargeras was first opened by him. He created the first death knights, one we meet in the Black Temple. Etc, etc.

I guess you're right.
But, it's not like Garrosh or Sylvanas were these gentle and kind characters that require so much in order to turn evil. They were assholes from the beginning. Unlike Arthas, for example, who only had vindictive tendencies, but was mostly good. So, the question still remains: does it require that much to make them into villains?

Apples and oranges. Sylvanas, much like Garrosh, had to be properly set up to become a villain (the success of each of their setups notwithstanding). They couldn't just simply make Sylvanas evil out of the blue.

They could, though. She was evil from the very beginning. Garrosh was a warmongerer for most of his life. And, even Gallywix have potential-villain qualities. Heck, most of the Horde does, if we think about that.
Mag'har Orcs were the villains of WoD (with Grommash as their leader), Zandalari Trolls were the villains of Cata and MoP (with Zul as their leader), half of the Nightborne were villainous in Legion (with Elisande as their leader). It doesn't take much to make them into ones
Granted, Alliance have that much potential, with us dealing with Kul Tirans under Lady Ashvane, Dark Iron being villainous for most of WoW's lifetime, Mechagnomes under King Mechagon, Void elves could, potentially, fall to Void whispers and the Lightbound being a potential threat. Yet, none of them seem to require as much set up as Sylvanas and Garrosh. Why?

The answer for that question is very simple: we don't know.

No, we don't. But, we can speculate since he's, obviously, more prominent than Jubei'thos.

Why use Tyrande at all, if she is not a representative of the player priest class at all, though? Considering the original priest 'class' in Hearthstone is Anduin? But my point is: in my opinion, Samuro is not really more important than Jubei'thos.

Both feature in Hearthstone and HotS. Because they are major characters, priest or not. Jubei'thos doesn't. You know why? because he's not nearly as important as Samuro. Heck, when you think about the Blademaster, what do you picture? that corrupted orc in Hellfire or Samuro? i'll tell you what most do: Samuro.

"Runemasters featured in Vrykul culture in Legion" was not my argument. I said that the concept fits because runes and runic magic is a prevalent type of magic often found, and, in Legion, the vrykul culture exemplifies that the most. I must also remind you that the Tomb of Sargeras was sealed using two elven runestones.

Every type of magic can be used against the Legion. Heck, light seems to be the most effective. Why not introduce a third light-based class? i'll tell you. Because it doesn't match as much as the Demon Hunter (and the fact that we have 2 light-based classes, already).
The thing is, not only runes are useful against Demons. Arcane too. Demon Hunters use them as tattoos, to seal the demon within them; the Arcane vaults in Dalaran; and the powers of the Guardian against the Legion. So, was an Arcanist class bound to feature in Legion? no. Let's sober up and realize that.

So what? None of that means there was a "guarantee" of a class being added every two expansions. Thousands upon thousands of people expecting so does not mean there was a "guarantee".

Nothing is guaranteed. But, that was their way of conduct back then.

Because Blizzard doesn't add classes for "roleplay purposes". They add classes to diversify the play style options. "Play" is not the same as "roleplay".

You're playing a roleplaying game. You roleplay as the class you play. Some more than others (with RP servers). But, nonetheless, classes and races are there for us to play pretend as fantasy races and professions. Otherwise, you can play any other game for that matter.

It's a position, not an indicative of player class.

I was trying to help you...

Specifically theirs, considering they're the only iteration of actual blood magic being functionally on its own in Warcraft, so far.

What do you mean functionally on its own?
Do they not use the powers of G'huun?
Aren't there other types of blood casters?

At the end of the day, POTM and Wardens aren't Dark Rangers.

Dark Wardens mean nothing to you?
And, i don't think adding 1 ranged Hero unit, without the other (to be added separately) is likely. Wardens, already, have similarities to PotM with both of them drawing on Elune, and the Night Warrior providing the PotM with glaives.

Yeah, given the status of the Legion, and Illidan's current role, I could definitely see a "Warden" spec being added for Demon Hunters. An expression of them finding their way in a universe left in the wake of the Burning Legion, but now absent of that threat.

Wardens hunt Demon Hunters.
Do you not see the oxymoron in that?

[pacotaco]

What i told lelenia: it doesn't guarantee a new class. But given that there is a class addition, i don't see any other option. Do you?

As Blizzard said several times: they add classes as they fit in the expansion. So it depends on what the next expansion is.
As far as we know right now, next expansion could be anything, from going back to more mundane adventures (Dragon Isles) to going more comic conflict (Void vs Ligh).
They could make it more mystical, like Pandaria (so a class like Blademaster could fit) or they could make it more technomagic/high fantasy like Titan themed patches (o a clas like tinkere could fit).

In therm of technology and showcase, we have a lot of ground done for all of them, like player abilites, NPCs, lore, etc.

So, to me, the most probable are Blademaster and Tinker, with DRs being improbable but still possible.

So, it's all a feminist decision?

Yes.

I don't think so because Jaina, or Talanji for that matter, didn't get as much spotlight as she did. Heck ,even Arthas or Illidan didn't get that much attention.

Because their roles were minor and reactionary, Sylvanas was the engine of the BFA narrative.
Arthas and Illidan conflicts were already set on the narrative by the time we came to resolve it, while Sylvanas was always a secondary in the general narrative of the Warcraft Universe.
You can't go suddenly like "You now that undead lady in the background? Yeah, she's now bad, she went Hell and she's bringing back Satan with her".

Nice try, but you can use it for every potential class available. "We are adding the Bard to use his musical powers against the Legion". -_- Come on, be realistic. The classes that were added fitted their expansions. Death Knights to WotLK, Monks to MoP and Demon Hunters to Legion.

Lack of reading comprehension? You're agreeing with me! They're the best fit? Yes. Could they fit another class? Sure. That's why they were juggling with DKs, Necromancers and Runemasters for WotLK.

Go ahead. Suggest a class that fits the theme, without creating an imaginary situation.

Legion invasion theme? Tinker: use technological marvels that match the Legion's inventions. They also help with their teleportation knowledge to close Legion portals, and construct a ship to go to Argus.
See? You don't NEED Demon Hunters on Legion.
Heck, even the DH inclusion was more shoehorned than that, with all the DHs, that noone knew about, jailed at (what are the chances?) the "ground zero" of the Legion invasion.

Can i a get a quote with a source? because in-game that group doesn't seem that large (probably like 10 NPCs).

If you talked with Velonara at the end of the BFA campaign, when she was at the Orgrimmar Embassy, she said that. She's now gone, so amybe look up some videos or anything on internet. Can't help with that.
Still, DRs never were a big group. They may be counted by the dozens.

*cringe*
Unlikely.
1. They don't add a class mid expansion.
2. I don't see Dark Rangers countering the Jailer (unless they have his powers, like Sylvanas)

You cringe, but that's exactly what the DKs were.
I'm not sayingmaking them playable mid expansion, but making ground to make them playable in the pre-patch of the next one, although highly unlikly because Blizzard link classes with current expansions not with previous ones.

- That's my point. Why is that? if Dark Rangers have, seemingly, diminished their relevancy in this expansion.

It could be 2 things:
- Blizzard doesn't have anything to do with them for the moment.
- Or https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovMIA

- yeah... not gonna happen. It should stay a joke. You don't want WoW to turn into a childish game like HotS with playable fey dragons and such...

Well, Pandaren Brewmaster was a joke, and here we're with a race and a class based on it. Never say "never".

Hmmm... are Dark Rangers only raised? Because Forsaken have learned how to become one, not raised into one. Yet, i suppose you need to be a former Banshee to justify a playable Dark Ranger with cool-ass Sylvanas abilities.

As far as we know, DR are special undead raised with the power of the Maw. Only the LK and the Val'kyr could make them.
Nathanos, while presented as one, it was never truly it (although maybe after the thing the Val'kyr did to change his form he became one).

I meant a different era of cinematic creation. They differ quite a lot from the current ones.

You worded it on a weird way (maybe you're not a native english speaker? I sometimes have that problem). That's why we both misunderstood you.

Wait, wait... what? She was responsible for the ordering of light and shadow? can i get a source for that? i only heard of her being the sister of the Winter Queen (which, doesn't put her in a likely place to be a First one). If that is the case, then Light and Void do not indicate on a Shadow Hunter, but rather on a PotM.

Oh, you're just using some previous data about her. She was all over the place in terms of categorization. Arcane due to the Tears of Elune. Life due to the connection to Druids. Death due to her being the sister of the Winter Queen. You can't just assume she is the patron of Light and Void. Heck, she casts moon-based abilities, not Void nor Light. The same can be seen with the Stonewright.

Khadgar in Legion finds a book from Medhiv that theorizes that maybe Elune created X'era. That would explain why the Tears of Elune would restore X'era (the First N'aaru) when only another Naaru could do it.

She could have raised Dark Sentinels, Dark Druids, Dark Furbolgs, Dark Faeirie Dragons, Dark Dryads, Dark Ancients, Dark Highborne, Dark Priestesses of the Moon, Dark Demon Hunters or Dark 'whatever' that includes Night elves there. But, they purposefully chose Wardens and Night elf Dark Rangers. Why? i'll tell you why. Because they're planning to do something with that. Not seeing that is a real issue with people, because that's obviously intentional.

Azerite? what could azerite add to any potential future classes? nothing. Are you seeing a class based on azerite power? no. Any races? no. It was there for a feature. It had its purpose, unlike Dark Wardens and Dark Rangers.

I agree. It looks very suspicious.

Who? anyone with necromantic abilities, i guess. It can be taught, rather than granted by being raised. By who? any Dark Ranger NPC.
There are plenty of them left to fill that gap.

Unless they change it, it's implied that DRs are created, not trained. I'd even say that only elves can be it.
But if I'd make them playable I'd make them available to other races that can be banshee/spectres: Human, Kul Tiran, Void Elves and Night Elves on Alliance; Blood Elves, Nighborne, Forsaken, Troll and Zandalari on Horde.

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That's kind of irrelevant, though. Because WoD and the main timeline are separate threads of fate. What happens in one doesn't affect the other. So they could have made Samuro be a fel-corrupted boss in Hellfire Citadel in place of Jubei'thos, and kill him, and nothing at all would change for Samuro in the main timeline. After all, we kill uncorrupted Kargath Bladefist in WoD, and, as far as we know, he's still a fel orc boss in Shattered Halls in Outland. Same thing with Teron Gorefiend.

Different timeline, but they didn't completly change the personality of the characters. Putting Samuro in the place of Jubei'thos makes no sense, because Samuro despises exactly that.

[Ielenia]

So, basically, we can consider every class concept and their mother as possible, but only the ones that match, actually, get implemented. So, Demon Hunter it is

Don't you see how contradictory that statement is? If "only the class concepts that match the expansion get implemented" was an actual thing, why bother considering other concepts that, according to you, "don't match the expansion"? Why waste time on that?

Oh, yeah, i remember that... as a shadowy figure. Nothing major.

"Nothing major"? You're moving goalposts, here. And it wasn't a "ghostly figure". It was her. Blizzard didn't just wanted ot keep her naga form a secret. She fully appears as a night elf.

No? you just established that he featured, prominently, for 3 expansions in a row:
Elected as Warchief in Cataclysm.
Caused a faction war in MoP.
Led us through a portal to another reality.
Basically, a corrupted faction leader.
Now, let's look at Sylvanas:
Features, prominently, for 3 expansions in a row.
Appointed warchief in Legion.
Caused a faction war in BfA.
Led us through a rift to another dimension.
Basically, a corrupted faction leader.

So, not giving her the same "end boss" treatment as Garrosh seems quite wasteful.

No. "Wasteful", in my opinion, would be giving her the "same treatment" as Garrosh. Don't you remember how the players keep complaining that Sylvanas was "just Garrosh 2.0"?

Further increasing the resemblance to Garrosh, who had some humanity in Cataclysm.

Actually, it further separates him from Garrosh. Because Garrosh had a semblance of honor in Cataclysm, which was completely thrown out the window in MoP and WoD, with Garrosh's only regret during his trial being, and I quote, "not having done enough".

I guess you're right.
But, it's not like Garrosh or Sylvanas were these gentle and kind characters that require so much in order to turn evil. They were assholes from the beginning. Unlike Arthas, for example, who only had vindictive tendencies, but was mostly good. So, the question still remains: does it require that much to make them into villains?

Sylvanas was seen as a pragmatic, end-justifies-the-means type of character, but was also being portrayed as actually caring for the Forsaken under her rule.

They could, though. She was evil from the very beginning. Garrosh was a warmongerer for most of his life. And, even Gallywix have potential-villain qualities. Heck, most of the Horde does, if we think about that.
Mag'har Orcs were the villains of WoD (with Grommash as their leader), Zandalari Trolls were the villains of Cata and MoP (with Zul as their leader), half of the Nightborne were villainous in Legion (with Elisande as their leader). It doesn't take much to make them into ones
Granted, Alliance have that much potential, with us dealing with Kul Tirans under Lady Ashvane, Dark Iron being villainous for most of WoW's lifetime, Mechagnomes under King Mechagon, Void elves could, potentially, fall to Void whispers and the Lightbound being a potential threat. Yet, none of them seem to require as much set up as Sylvanas and Garrosh. Why?

You don't seem to know how narratives work. Could they just make them instantly "big bad evil guys"? Yes, Blizzard could do it. Just like J.K.Rowling could have introduced Voldemort only last minute for the big climax of the book's story. Of which you agreed would make the thing lame. Villains need time to be introduced and developed. Garrosh and Sylvanas were already introduced, yes, but they were introduced as villains.

No, we don't. But, we can speculate since he's, obviously, more prominent than Jubei'thos.

Both feature in Hearthstone and HotS. Because they are major characters, priest or not. Jubei'thos doesn't. You know why? because he's not nearly as important as Samuro. Heck, when you think about the Blademaster, what do you picture? that corrupted orc in Hellfire or Samuro? i'll tell you what most do: Samuro.

And that is your opinion. My opinion is that Samuro is not more important than Jubei'thos.

Every type of magic can be used against the Legion. Heck, light seems to be the most effective. Why not introduce a third light-based class? i'll tell you. Because it doesn't match as much as the Demon Hunter (and the fact that we have 2 light-based classes, already).
The thing is, not only runes are useful against Demons. Arcane too. Demon Hunters use them as tattoos, to seal the demon within them; the Arcane vaults in Dalaran; and the powers of the Guardian against the Legion. So, was an Arcanist class bound to feature in Legion? no. Let's sober up and realize that.

How do you know that? How do you know that an "arcanist" class concept was not among the class ideas being bounced around during the Legion development? You're taking your own opinion, your own bias, and stating those as facts, here. Which is very hypocritical of you considering you kept accusing me of bias.

Nothing is guaranteed. But, that was their way of conduct back then.

Again, that's no guarantee, so please stop acting like it was. Expectations are not guarantees.

You're playing a roleplaying game. You roleplay as the class you play. Some more than others (with RP servers). But, nonetheless, classes and races are there for us to play pretend as fantasy races and professions. Otherwise, you can play any other game for that matter.

... You really don't know what "roleplaying" is, if that is your definition. Roleplay requires interpretation. An online roleplaying game is not actually roleplay just because you're picking a race and class and pressing buttons. To roleplay-- actually roleplay-- means to give the character a personality, motivations, aspirations, wants and needs, etc, which simply does not happen in the game, and Blizzard even added servers specifically for roleplay, separated from the rest. Just don't go to the Moonguard server

What do you mean functionally on its own?
Do they not use the powers of G'huun?
Aren't there other types of blood casters?

"Functional on its own" by the fact they're their own power. For example, the blood magic aspect of anima (the one that the Mogu used, no the Shadowlands version) or the blood magic of the Scourge. The blood magic of the blood trolls is separate from those.

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Different timeline, but they didn't completly change the personality of the characters. Putting Samuro in the place of Jubei'thos makes no sense, because Samuro despises exactly that.

Perhaps. And I agree with you on the 'they kept their personalities intact', but there was the possibility that Samuro could have been forced to drink the blood, which could make him more aggressive.

[Triceron]

Does it have to be current to be an option? Lilian stepped up out of the blue after Sylvanas' departure, Rokhan after Vol'jin's and Gazlowe after Gallywix's. They weren't so much set up.

And none of these hint at any other new classes in the game.

I don't consider any of these to be hints towards a Tinker, Shadow Hunter or Dark Ranger, because they don't actually indicate that any of these classes will actually be playable in the future.

A playable Tinker isn't dependent on Gazlowe being race leader. Shadow Hunters weren't dependent on Vol'jin being Warchief. None of these are actually hints towards a playable class, since they don't actually indicate they will actually be explored in the future. Wrathion mentioning Dragon Isles is a hint, because there is an intent for him to explore. NPCs stepping up in leadership display no intent in making their own unique class be playable.

If we want to talk about the development set up for a class, then we shouldn't be applying NPCs that can be written in and out of the story in any given way Blizzard chooses. There are many more factors that affect the decision for a class

Saying it is a dead end is like claiming Blademasters would be Horde only because they are primarily Orcs, Shadow Hunters as well because they are primarily Trolls, Wardens and Priestesses of the Moon Alliance only because they are primarily Night elves. Monk is primarily associated with the Pandaren, yet everyone is able to learn it. The thing is, if you really believe it will remain a Horde thing only, you are truly delusional.

It's a dead end because they *chose* not to expand it to the Alliance.

We actually can't say this about Blademaster because they DID provide an example of a Lightforged Blademaster. This is only comparable to the Dark Ranger situation if they had the Telamon with other Lightforged Blademaster followers all choose to be aligned with the Horde. I hope you can see the problems here.

Then, i ask again: what purpose do they serve? Why do we need Night elf Dark Rangers and Dark Wardens, specifically, and not any other [race] Dark Ranger or dark [class]?

I explained and you ignored.

My personal interpretation is they had plans for it, and abandoned it because of an internal decision to *NOT ADD ANY CLASS* in Shadowlands.

Is that so?
Draconic themes in WotlK led to Cataclysm.
Human and Orcish themes in MoP led to WoD.
Demonic themes in WoD led to Legion.
Faction and titanic themes in Legion led to BfA.
BfA's Light and Void themes have yet to lead us to an appropriate expansion, but it is due.
Shadowlands' Cataclysm themes will lead us to a Dragon Isles expansion at some point.

What Cata themes let to MOP? The Shattering was such a broad concept that we could have just as easily been lead to Undermine and the South Seas, or the Broken Isles, instead of to Pandaria. And if we're talking about expansion themes, then you've absolutely cherry picked these connections, because I can give you examples of plenty of themes from Cata that could have lead to any number of expansions that were not Pandaria related.

- Strong themes with dealing with Timetravel, which could have just as easily lead us into Alt Universe Draenor or another Time Travel setting
- Brought back the Zandalari into the story, making it possible for the next expansion to be in Zandalar
- Vash'jr and the Naga, which could have lead into an Azshara based expansion in Zin Azshari and Nazjatar
- Strong ties to Hyjal, which could have lead us into an Emerald Dream/Emerald Nightmare expansion.
- Old God Shenanigans, which could have lead us straight to the Black Empire and N'zoth.
- Goblin intro had us explore parts of Kezan, giving us a brief look. This could have lead us to Undermine and the South Seas
- Shattering could have raised Broken Isles from the sea and caused instability in the Vault of the Wardens

These are all story seeds. Some were even more suggestive than others of future expansion content, such as Azshara using Ozumat to take away Neptulon. This plot was abandoned since Neptulon was perfectly fine in Legion. Azshara still made her way into the game eventually, but not through the story seed that was planted in Cataclysm.


The Dark Ranger situation is more nuanced because they never announced any intentions for a new class. This leaves us guessing why Night Elf Dark Rangers exist in the plot without having been used at all since. We are left to assume. But from a narrative standpoint, the Loyalist plotline is absent, and Sylvanas' story seems to be concluding. This will not likely be a hint towards playable Dark Rangers.

Dark Wardens mean nothing to you?

They're Dark Wardens. They didn't learn to be Dark Rangers or anything, they're still Wardens. Am I missing something here?

And, i don't think adding 1 ranged Hero unit, without the other (to be added separately) is likely. Wardens, already, have similarities to PotM with both of them drawing on Elune, and the Night Warrior providing the PotM with glaives.

Or it could be the more likely scenario of not adding Dark Ranger/Dark Warden/Dark POTM as a new class, and they're moving forward with other plans for the time being.

I'm curious why are you so adamant that Dark Ranger needs to follow up on the BFA's narrative when we're at a point in time that shows us it's gone nowhere? Do you not acknowledge that this concept will be a hard sell following up with future Expansion settings? I mean, Zin Ashari with a Dark Ranger class? It doesn't really make much sense, kind of like when Teriz proposed his Titan expansion with Tinkers.

It's not a matter of whether Blizzard *could* do it or not, it's a matter of Blizzard showing us they aren't wholly interested at this moment in time. Same with what happened with Azshara being 'hinted' at in Cataclysm and only appearing a decade later in BFA, with no follow up to the Cata plot at all. That's what I'm seeing as the future for Dark Rangers - we have Velonara and Summermoon set up as a story seed, but they're not being hinted at being used or even relevant to the current plot.

Just because they said she created Xe'ra, she now, suddenly, responsible for the ordering of Light and Shadow? You know that would make her a First One, right?

You need to read more clearly, because I had said Elune had a connection to the Ordering of Light and Shadow, not that she was responsible for it.

"Archmage Khadgar found in an ancient cosmology tome a passage indicating that the prime naaru may have been created by Elune during the great ordering of Light and Shadow."

I'm a bit surprised you assumed so much out of a one word response, too.

Like what? Show me an example of what Legion could have been and could have introduced.

Gul'dan was the only link between WoD and Legion. Without Gul'dan, no return of Illidan, no demon invasion, no return of Sargeras.

The story for Legion isn't completely centered around demons - it's about exploring the Broken Isles, exploring the Artifacts, and gathering the Pillars of Creation. And who would be the big bad we have to face? What about N'zoth?

- N'zoth's forces invade Broken Shore, same characters die. Vol'jin, Varian, Tirion, all victims of the agents of N'zoth.
- N'zoth's agents seek the Pillars of Creation. We are there to claim them.
- Emerald Nightmare - This could be expanded into a larger part of the expansion. This raid was already connected to N'zoth.
- Suramar plotline swaps out Sargeras for N'zoth. Deals with a different devil.
- Azshara and the Tidestone is already featured in Legion, expand her influence. She is already an agent of N'zoth.
- Tomb of Sargeras swapped out, Nazjatar swapped in.
- Black Empire is the end raid setting instead of Argus. Just switch up BFA's ending into Legion.

All of the same beats of the Legion expansion. It's basically the same setting and story with a different theme. Instead of demons, we have old god shenanigans.

Wrathion becomes the stand-in for Illidan. Illidan was the key to defeating Sargeras, Wrathion was the key to defeating N'zoth. You see the parallels here, right? Instead of Demon Hunters, Wrathion creates the Dragonsworn, mortals blessed with Draconic powers.

BFA already showed us N'zoth, and Legion was already strongly hinting his return. Legion's theme was centered around the Pillars of Creation, and it wasn't all about Demons considering two of the biggest enemies in Legion were agents of N'zoth to begin with. It's not hard to change Legion from a Demon Expansion to an Old God expansion, because Blizzard already had Old God agents and themes all throughout the Broken Isles.

[draugril]

The point is, both of their roles have evolved. You're obviously not going to get a 1:1 Warden, just as no class is a 1:1 copy of their RTS predecessor.

The Legion is defeated. The Hunters have become the Wardens of the jailed. I could easily see them co-opting the ways of their former pursuers to ensure the Legion threat remains contained. Would you be able to be Maiev along with the lore and such? Nope. But that's not what is being pitched, here.

Think of it like Alliance High Elves. The version that is actually playable with Void Elves is technically from the opposite faction and is wrapped up with powers that are the antithesis of what their faction generally associates itself with. So too could it be with Wardens. Blizzard doesn't implement anything straight anymore. It all has to have a "clever" angle.

[Triceron]

Think of it like Alliance High Elves. The version that is actually playable with Void Elves is technically from the opposite faction and is wrapped up with powers that are the antithesis of what their faction generally associates itself with. So too could it be with Wardens. Blizzard doesn't implement anything straight anymore. It all has to have a "clever" angle.

They pretty much went straight with the Demon Hunter, with very few clever angles that involved other class concepts.

I mean, down to the exclusivity to Elf races.

[draugril]

It might not be a big deal to some, but being exclusively melee was a pretty big curveball to others. That Elven exclusivity was also a curveball for some, given that independent Demon Hunters were a thing and there is nothing overtly stating that Demon Hunters can only be Elves in the lore (no more than only Night Elves can be Druids, Orcs Shamans, etc.).

[Triceron]

It might not be a big deal to some, but being exclusively melee was a pretty big curveball to others. That Elven exclusivity was also a curveball for some, given that independent Demon Hunters were a thing and there is nothing overtly stating that Demon Hunters can only be Elves in the lore (no more than only Night Elves can be Druids, Orcs Shamans, etc.).

Of course not.

I'm simply pointing out that Blizzard seemed to shift towards a stronger adherence to specific class fantasy rather than merging multiple concepts. The Demon Hunter is approached very differently from the Death Knight. One is accessible to most races, one is exclusive to two. One was originally designed with 3 Tanking and 3 DPS specs, one is designed with just 1 tanking and 1 DPS spec. I'm not saying this will be the way all classes will be designed moving forward, but we definitely shouldn't be overlooking Blizzard implementing a straight design, especially when it's the most recent class example we have.

[draugril]

Of course not.

I'm simply pointing out that Blizzard seemed to shift towards a stronger adherence to specific class fantasy rather than merging multiple concepts. The Demon Hunter is approached very differently from the Death Knight. One is accessible to most races, one is exclusive to two. One was originally designed with 3 Tanking and 3 DPS specs, one is designed with just 1 tanking and 1 DPS spec. I'm not saying this will be the way all classes will be designed moving forward, but we definitely shouldn't be overlooking Blizzard implementing a straight design, especially when it's the most recent class example we have.

Fair points. I'm not saying that they're incapable, and I'm definitely not talking about the Blizzard of yesteryear. But you do have to admit that modern Blizzard tends to go out of their way to "subvert" expectations. There's a reason the "corrupt-a-wish" forum game is a thing.

[Triceron]

Fair points. I'm not saying that they're incapable, and I'm definitely not talking about the Blizzard of yesteryear. But you do have to admit that modern Blizzard tends to go out of their way to "subvert" expectations. There's a reason the "corrupt-a-wish" forum game is a thing.

I think they've done quite a bit of subversion with Allied Races over the traditional 1-2 new Races format, or Covenants instead of a full blown class. For better or for worse.

It's why I feel Class Skins are the next evolution. Not something I want, but something I see Blizzard pursuing. It has very broad appeal, if they can introduce a half-dozen 'new' classes in one expansion. Not sure how they'd balance it, but I'm sure some form of it is being tested out or at least considered on paper. I feel like Covenants are a step in that direction already, with multiple classes sharing unique abilities and having access to different 'career paths'.

[Fantazma]

The more I watch the video below the more I think how wonderful it would be to play with a Dark Ranger on WoW.
This HOS video not only gives us an idea of what a Dark Ranger in WoW would look like ... it also makes it very clear to everyone that the designer concept that Blizzard has for the Dark Ranger is quite (quite) different from the Hunter concept . So .. it wouldn't just be a "Dark Hunter" as some have said here ...
The only similarity is the use of a Bow. Everything else is quite different.
A Hunter with Shadow Skills, that teleports, and with mind control skills. I would probably play this 24 hours a day ...

[Triceron]

The more I watch the video below the more I think how wonderful it would be to play with a Dark Ranger on WoW.
This video not only shows us how it makes it clear to everyone that the concept of designer that Blizzard has for Drak Ranger is quite (quite) different from the concept of Hunter.
The only similarity is the use of a Bow. Everything else is quite different.
A Hunter with Dark aspect, that teleports ... and with mind control skills. I would probably play this 24 hours a day ...

Agreed that the concept is quite different.

We'll get Wailing Arrow and Withering Shot with the next raid, and limited teleporting is available through Venthyr Covenant. Not as good as a full class, but at the very least there's more tools for Dark Ranger roleplay for now.

[draugril]

Not something I want, but something I see Blizzard pursuing.

It's pretty astonishing how different my lists for "what I want" and "what I expect" have come to diverge over the years.

Gone are the days of wide-eyed, hopeful speculation of whatever big, new ideas Blizzard could introduce to the game. These days... if the idea doesn't slot into the existing formula or would be resource-intensive, I don't see it as plausible at all. It doesn't fit their model. The whole "it'll cost a raid tier"-quote was more revealing than people realize.

[pacotaco]

At the end of the day, POTM and Wardens aren't Dark Rangers.

Teriz for example suggested Tinkers could be tied to a Titan themed expansion by using Titan tech. This is a possibility, but let's recognize that a Tinker that uses Titan tech is a very different theme from a classic Tinker hero that simply uses scrappy Goblin and Gnome tech without other 'supernatural' themes being mixed in. It's a different class we're talking about.

The problem I see with this idea is that no one is asking for it.

Players expect a Warcraft 3 styled Dark Ranger, and not Dark Ranger that has Elune healing abilities and Moon themes of Justice. If we're talking about incorporating some Maw and Jailer themes, sure I can see that being expanded on. We can even add some elements from other games like Demon Hunters of D3 for that. But the truth is there are no Moon and Night Warrior connections to a Dark Ranger class, and even the Night Elf Dark Rangers have forsaken Elune completely.

This is a very big 'what if', and one that I'm not wholly convinced is a good direction for Dark Rangers.

No, no. I wouldn't add Dark Rangers into that class. Just PotM and Wardens.
I would make Dark Rangers its own class, with dual wield melee and ranged specs and some banshee abilities common for both.

Why would Forsworn want to create more 'Sylvanases' after seeing what she's been capable of?

Dunno, they can make up some shit, like the DKs raised from the 4th War deads.

And that's already happened with nothing in effect.

Imagine if Wrath of the Lich King happened, we had Darion Mograine split away from the Scourge at the end of TBC, and then Blizzard omits them completely from Wrath's storyline.

We'd literally be waiting for the next relevant story and setting (like Shadowlands) for Death Knights to be introduced as a playable class. It's the same situation that the Demon Hunters faced where the Illidari were introduced back into the plot, but were given no chance to actually join. They had to wait to the next-relevant expansion for them to get that opportunity. And in the mean time, Blizzard looked towards adding a different class; Monks.


My personal theory is that Dark Rangers are currently shelved because of similar reasons to why Demon Hunters weren't created back in TBC. I believe they decided they were not ready to make and release a new class and would rather devote resources to better balancing the existing classes the way they focused on that in TBC. So instead of adding a new class, they devised a way to spread abilities out to all other classes (Covenants), and using these mechanics to explore the different realms they've planned for Shadowlands. This means Dark Rangers (and Necromancers) would be missing a current window of opportunity at this point in time.

Blizzard doesn't sweat it, since they have a whole list of potential Class concepts to work with, and a Dark Ranger still has the chance of seeing the light in the future. I just don't think it would be anytime in the near future.

As a developer, they are not singular in deciding what new class to make next. It's a collaborative decision. If not Dark Ranger now, then maybe Tinker or Dragonsworn or Bard or Shadow Hunter down the line. They aren't playing favourites here, otherwise they wouldn't come to a decision to omit a new class entirely in this expansion.

I agree. Some of the covenant abilities could perfectly fit into a DR class (Door of Shadows, Ravenous Frenzy, Spear of Bastion and Sinful Brand, for example).

[Triceron]

Gone are the days of wide-eyed, hopeful speculation of whatever big, new ideas Blizzard could introduce to the game. These days... if the idea doesn't slot into the existing formula or would be resource-intensive, I don't see it as plausible at all. It doesn't fit their model. The whole "it'll cost a raid tier"-quote was more revealing than people realize.

Classes are practically the only thing I'm left interested in WoW. I don't even play any more, I just want to see what kind of surprises they push out with each expansion and eventual class.

I'd much prefer it if they adopted the Everquest or FF model and be flexible enough to add any number of classes to the game. Treat them like the WC3 heroes they were intended to be, which were designed to be patched into the game any time they wish.

Instead, they've doubled down on the core classes they had and changed the Spec system into literal classes themselves. We have 12 classes to choose from, while they're balancing 36. That's the biggest problem they have when adding any new class to the game; it's potentially adding 3 more for them to balance.

But as we all know, it's way too far down the line to shift it back to a different system. Players are set into their ways, the balance has an expectation to maintain, and for the most part the system actually works out. It just makes it difficult for them to add any new class they want.

What I'd want is actually for them to retool Classic Plus, and go sideways with Vanilla. Add in a Classic version of the Monk, Death Knight and Demon Hunter, each having only one intended 'role' for raiding. From there, they can expand to any number of other classes. Bards for support, like how Paladins and Druids already play. Tinkers to bring in ranged artillery. Shadow Hunters providing debuffs and CC. Just keep it all stupid and simple, the way Classic was meant to be. Throw in a bunch of new retro-style raids, and I think it could work.

[draugril]

Classes are practically the only thing I'm left interested in WoW. I don't even play any more, I just want to see what kind of surprises they push out with each expansion and eventual class.

I'd much prefer it if they adopted the Everquest or FF model and be flexible enough to add any number of classes to the game. Treat them like the WC3 heroes they were intended to be, which were designed to be patched into the game any time they wish.

Instead, they've doubled down on the core classes they had and changed the Spec system into literal classes themselves. We have 12 classes to choose from, while they're balancing 36. That's the biggest problem they have when adding any new class to the game; it's potentially adding 3 more for them to balance.

But as we all know, it's way too far down the line to shift it back to a different system. Players are set into their ways, the balance has an expectation to maintain, and for the most part the system actually works out. It just makes it difficult for them to add any new class they want.

What I'd want is actually for them to retool Classic Plus, and go sideways with Vanilla. Add in a Classic version of the Monk, Death Knight and Demon Hunter, each having only one intended 'role' for raiding. From there, they can expand to any number of other classes. Bards for support, like how Paladins and Druids already play. Tinkers to bring in ranged artillery. Shadow Hunters providing debuffs and CC. Just keep it all stupid and simple, the way Classic was meant to be. Throw in a bunch of new retro-style raids, and I think it could work.

I would sell a nut in exchange for a parallel universe WoW classic with this kind of content.

But, let's be real here. The reason we didn't get classic servers for so long was because it was viewed as an inefficient usage of resources. Not cost effective at all. It was completely uncharacteristic that we got classic at all. But now that it's running and providing a revenue stream... what motivation is there to actively develop new content? They're already getting their money. They have the content stream pre-built. There is no motivator present for any innovation whatsoever.

[username993720]

As Blizzard said several times: they add classes as they fit in the expansion. So it depends on what the next expansion is.
As far as we know right now, next expansion could be anything, from going back to more mundane adventures (Dragon Isles) to going more comic conflict (Void vs Ligh).
They could make it more mystical, like Pandaria (so a class like Blademaster could fit) or they could make it more technomagic/high fantasy like Titan themed patches (o a clas like tinkere could fit).

In therm of technology and showcase, we have a lot of ground done for all of them, like player abilites, NPCs, lore, etc.

So, to me, the most probable are Blademaster and Tinker, with DRs being improbable but still possible.

You just said they had to fit the expansion. Blademaster don't fit Dragon Isles or Light/Void unless we take an old concept they made of a dragonman looking like a samurai.
Tinker doesn't fit any of them. While there is basis for both of them, none of them really fit the expansions mentioned, just like Dark Ranger doesn't.

Yes.

While they were pushing for it, Sylvanas isn't in the spotlight solely for female empowerment. Otherwise, she would have been the big bad boss of Shadowlands and not a sidekick to a male villain (the Jailer). That's de-empowering.

Because their roles were minor and reactionary, Sylvanas was the engine of the BFA narrative.
Arthas and Illidan conflicts were already set on the narrative by the time we came to resolve it, while Sylvanas was always a secondary in the general narrative of the Warcraft Universe.
You can't go suddenly like "You now that undead lady in the background? Yeah, she's now bad, she went Hell and she's bringing back Satan with her".

She was, always, kind of bad. Nothing surprising about that. She didn't, exactly, project lavender and roses, did she? No need to put so much effort into making her into a villain.

Lack of reading comprehension? You're agreeing with me! They're the best fit? Yes. Could they fit another class? Sure. That's why they were juggling with DKs, Necromancers and Runemasters for WotLK.

They, really, couldn't. All that juggling was in concept and we ended up with Death Knights.

Legion invasion theme? Tinker: use technological marvels that match the Legion's inventions. They also help with their teleportation knowledge to close Legion portals, and construct a ship to go to Argus.
See? You don't NEED Demon Hunters on Legion.
Heck, even the DH inclusion was more shoehorned than that, with all the DHs, that noone knew about, jailed at (what are the chances?) the "ground zero" of the Legion invasion.

I'll tell you what i told lelenia:
Guardian is good at countering the Legion? let's make another arcane-based class! They would be empowered to eradicate anything and everything. Sounds reasonable? no. That's just toying around. Tinker fits Legion as much as it fits WoD or BfA due to their mechanical themes. Having certain themes play a part in an expansion doesn't mean that the entire expansion revolves around it. Hence, why Demon Hunter matched the expansion.

You cringe, but that's exactly what the DKs were.
I'm not sayingmaking them playable mid expansion, but making ground to make them playable in the pre-patch of the next one, although highly unlikly because Blizzard link classes with current expansions not with previous ones.

You know what?
I've been thinking about it... there was a supposed leaked image of a Maldraxxian Ziggurat flying over Borean Tundra.

And, today, i saw a video of Accolon about the future of Sylvanas. It made me think. What if the Jailer gets to Azeroth, Sylvanas betrays him and rounds up the Dark Rangers to counter him on Azeroth and, in a never before seen move from Blizzard, they add a class mid-expansion for the first time in order to not reveal that in the beginning of the expansion. Wild, huh?

Well, Pandaren Brewmaster was a joke, and here we're with a race and a class based on it. Never say "never".

Yea... no, not as much as the Murloc. The guys can't speak much, they don't have a culture, they're beyond primitive. Pandaren at least could communicate, has a chinese-based culture and can, actually be integrated into a faction. People just see them as a joke because they're fluffy. I don't.

As far as we know, DR are special undead raised with the power of the Maw. Only the LK and the Val'kyr could make them.
Nathanos, while presented as one, it was never truly it (although maybe after the thing the Val'kyr did to change his form he became one).

What about playable Forsaken Hunter which are considered Dark Rangers?
Sylvanas herself, also, raised several Dark Rangers.

Khadgar in Legion finds a book from Medhiv that theorizes that maybe Elune created X'era. That would explain why the Tears of Elune would restore X'era (the First N'aaru) when only another Naaru could do it.

Yea, i know that.
That's still far away from being a First one and ordering Light and Shadow, don't you think? especially since she's only the sister of the Winter Queen, an Eternal One, and not her creator or something like that.

Unless they change it, it's implied that DRs are created, not trained. I'd even say that only elves can be it.
But if I'd make them playable I'd make them available to other races that can be banshee/spectres: Human, Kul Tiran, Void Elves and Night Elves on Alliance; Blood Elves, Nighborne, Forsaken, Troll and Zandalari on Horde.

Well, the lore for Forsaken Hunters says it can be taught.

Hmmm... never thought about it. Was thinking more towards Rangers in life. But, then i remembered everyone could be a Death Knight so, i don't know.

Don't you see how contradictory that statement is? If "only the class concepts that match the expansion get implemented" was an actual thing, why bother considering other concepts that, according to you, "don't match the expansion"? Why waste time on that?

Simply fun brainstorming
You know, they're not always serious on those meetings.
Now, for real. If they, actually, had sketches for abilities, armor sets, talents, customization and such for the Necromancer and Runemaster, i might have agreed with you. But, they were only on a conceptual level.

"Nothing major"? You're moving goalposts, here. And it wasn't a "ghostly figure". It was her. Blizzard didn't just wanted ot keep her naga form a secret. She fully appears as a night elf.

They didn't bother to update her model or even give her a reused Naga one. The point is, she didn't feature as much you imply she did. In terms of setting up, she was very slightly used.

No. "Wasteful", in my opinion, would be giving her the "same treatment" as Garrosh. Don't you remember how the players keep complaining that Sylvanas was "just Garrosh 2.0"?

Isn't she?
Well, i don't mean to let her be the last boss just to be killed by Thrall the next expansion. But, come on, a sidekick? She could have at least featured alongside the Jailer himself as a raid encounter.

Actually, it further separates him from Garrosh. Because Garrosh had a semblance of honor in Cataclysm, which was completely thrown out the window in MoP and WoD, with Garrosh's only regret during his trial being, and I quote, "not having done enough".

Him? i meant Sylvanas.
And, yes, i am aware of this. Let's see what Revendreth has done to him, since he's the best character out there in my opinion.

Sylvanas was seen as a pragmatic, end-justifies-the-means type of character, but was also being portrayed as actually caring for the Forsaken under her rule.

And the Forsaken were, totally, evil. Nothing surprising about any of them turning evil. She hated the living beforehand, after all.

You don't seem to know how narratives work. Could they just make them instantly "big bad evil guys"? Yes, Blizzard could do it. Just like J.K.Rowling could have introduced Voldemort only last minute for the big climax of the book's story. Of which you agreed would make the thing lame. Villains need time to be introduced and developed. Garrosh and Sylvanas were already introduced, yes, but they were introduced as villains.

If they were introduced as villains, what separates them from Gul'dan or Azshara, who were not given as much spotlight as them. The fact that they were faction leaders? part of us? and not outside threats?
To tell you the truth, it was hella successful with Garrosh. Less so with Sylvanas. She's just not that charismatic.

And that is your opinion. My opinion is that Samuro is not more important than Jubei'thos.

My opinion?
Is putting him in HotS and Hearthstone as the representative of the class my idea? no, it was Blizzard's. Because they acknowledge him to be the iconic character and not Jubei'thos. Heck, who even remembers him from the raid? He was just another fel Orc.

How do you know that? How do you know that an "arcanist" class concept was not among the class ideas being bounced around during the Legion development? You're taking your own opinion, your own bias, and stating those as facts, here. Which is very hypocritical of you considering you kept accusing me of bias.

Because an arcanist is a Mage.
We're down low if we think this was, actually, considered.

Again, that's no guarantee, so please stop acting like it was. Expectations are not guarantees.

Too bad i didn't bet on it, back then. Because i sure as hell would have won the money.

... You really don't know what "roleplaying" is, if that is your definition. Roleplay requires interpretation. An online roleplaying game is not actually roleplay just because you're picking a race and class and pressing buttons. To roleplay-- actually roleplay-- means to give the character a personality, motivations, aspirations, wants and needs, etc, which simply does not happen in the game, and Blizzard even added servers specifically for roleplay, separated from the rest. Just don't go to the Moonguard server

There are levels of roleplay - of how much you take it seriously. But, in its core its a roleplaying game. At the end of the day, you have to pick a race and a class out of an assortment of those and customize your character. The thing is, you wrongly see roleplaying as only the hardcore ones.

"Functional on its own" by the fact they're their own power. For example, the blood magic aspect of anima (the one that the Mogu used, no the Shadowlands version) or the blood magic of the Scourge. The blood magic of the blood trolls is separate from those.

Oh. Of course it is separate. The question was how it would compete, and win, over other types of blood casting? or, are you suggesting combining all types of blood casters out there?

And none of these hint at any other new classes in the game.

I don't consider any of these to be hints towards a Tinker, Shadow Hunter or Dark Ranger, because they don't actually indicate that any of these classes will actually be playable in the future.

A playable Tinker isn't dependent on Gazlowe being race leader. Shadow Hunters weren't dependent on Vol'jin being Warchief. None of these are actually hints towards a playable class, since they don't actually indicate they will actually be explored in the future. Wrathion mentioning Dragon Isles is a hint, because there is an intent for him to explore. NPCs stepping up in leadership display no intent in making their own unique class be playable.

If we want to talk about the development set up for a class, then we shouldn't be applying NPCs that can be written in and out of the story in any given way Blizzard chooses. There are many more factors that affect the decision for a class

Didn't mean that. But, you couldn't see how Sylvanas or Nathanos were replaceable.

It's a dead end because they *chose* not to expand it to the Alliance.

We actually can't say this about Blademaster because they DID provide an example of a Lightforged Blademaster. This is only comparable to the Dark Ranger situation if they had the Telamon with other Lightforged Blademaster followers all choose to be aligned with the Horde. I hope you can see the problems here.

Yes, i can see.
But, even you admitted Dark Rangers are possible at some point. And what would they do then? keep them Horde only?
The point is, it's not a dead end. Just like Blood elves in the Horde weren't a dead end for Void elves or High elf customization.

I explained and you ignored.

My personal interpretation is they had plans for it, and abandoned it because of an internal decision to *NOT ADD ANY CLASS* in Shadowlands.

Right...
That's why they feature in the pre-Shadowlands book, Shadows Rising, right? because they abandoned those things.

What Cata themes let to MOP? The Shattering was such a broad concept that we could have just as easily been lead to Undermine and the South Seas, or the Broken Isles, instead of to Pandaria. And if we're talking about expansion themes, then you've absolutely cherry picked these connections, because I can give you examples of plenty of themes from Cata that could have lead to any number of expansions that were not Pandaria related.

- Strong themes with dealing with Timetravel, which could have just as easily lead us into Alt Universe Draenor or another Time Travel setting
- Brought back the Zandalari into the story, making it possible for the next expansion to be in Zandalar
- Vash'jr and the Naga, which could have lead into an Azshara based expansion in Zin Azshari and Nazjatar
- Strong ties to Hyjal, which could have lead us into an Emerald Dream/Emerald Nightmare expansion.
- Old God Shenanigans, which could have lead us straight to the Black Empire and N'zoth.
- Goblin intro had us explore parts of Kezan, giving us a brief look. This could have lead us to Undermine and the South Seas
- Shattering could have raised Broken Isles from the sea and caused instability in the Vault of the Wardens

These are all story seeds. Some were even more suggestive than others of future expansion content, such as Azshara using Ozumat to take away Neptulon. This plot was abandoned since Neptulon was perfectly fine in Legion. Azshara still made her way into the game eventually, but not through the story seed that was planted in Cataclysm.

The Dark Ranger situation is more nuanced because they never announced any intentions for a new class. This leaves us guessing why Night Elf Dark Rangers exist in the plot without having been used at all since. We are left to assume. But from a narrative standpoint, the Loyalist plotline is absent, and Sylvanas' story seems to be concluding. This will not likely be a hint towards playable Dark Rangers.

Never said anything in Cata led to MoP. Read my quote again.

They're Dark Wardens. They didn't learn to be Dark Rangers or anything, they're still Wardens. Am I missing something here?

You gotta be kidding, right?

Or it could be the more likely scenario of not adding Dark Ranger/Dark Warden/Dark POTM as a new class, and they're moving forward with other plans for the time being.

I'm curious why are you so adamant that Dark Ranger needs to follow up on the BFA's narrative when we're at a point in time that shows us it's gone nowhere? Do you not acknowledge that this concept will be a hard sell following up with future Expansion settings? I mean, Zin Ashari with a Dark Ranger class? It doesn't really make much sense, kind of like when Teriz proposed his Titan expansion with Tinkers.

It's not a matter of whether Blizzard *could* do it or not, it's a matter of Blizzard showing us they aren't wholly interested at this moment in time. Same with what happened with Azshara being 'hinted' at in Cataclysm and only appearing a decade later in BFA, with no follow up to the Cata plot at all. That's what I'm seeing as the future for Dark Rangers - we have Velonara and Summermoon set up as a story seed, but they're not being hinted at being used or even relevant to the current plot.

Maybe not right now. But, in the future.

You need to read more clearly, because I had said Elune had a connection to the Ordering of Light and Shadow, not that she was responsible for it.

"Archmage Khadgar found in an ancient cosmology tome a passage indicating that the prime naaru may have been created by Elune during the great ordering of Light and Shadow."

I'm a bit surprised you assumed so much out of a one word response, too.

I know what it means. And, it's interchangeable. Because, as far as we know, the First Ones created the different cosmic forces and ordered them. So, you're kinda mixing things up.

It's why I feel Class Skins are the next evolution. Not something I want, but something I see Blizzard pursuing. It has very broad appeal, if they can introduce a half-dozen 'new' classes in one expansion. Not sure how they'd balance it, but I'm sure some form of it is being tested out or at least considered on paper. I feel like Covenants are a step in that direction already, with multiple classes sharing unique abilities and having access to different 'career paths'.

That's kind of a cheap solution. At least Allied Races got their own racial traits. What would class skins get that is not cosmetic?

[Triceron]

Didn't mean that. But, you couldn't see how Sylvanas or Nathanos were replaceable.

Did I ever say they weren't replaceable?

Illidan isn't the actual leader of the Illidari factions. Arthas isn't the leader of the Ebon Blade. Why would I need Sylvanas or Nathanos to be the leader of the Dark Rangers?

Sylvanas holds the key to creating Dark Rangers in the lore. No other source for making Dark Rangers or new Forsaken has been introduced into the plot. Dark Rangers aren't just something you train, otherwise any Forsaken Hunter could train to be a Dark Ranger, right?

Yes, i can see.
But, even you admitted Dark Rangers are possible at some point. And what would they do then? keep them Horde only?
The point is, it's not a dead end. Just like Blood elves in the Horde weren't a dead end for Void elves or High elf customization.

It's a dead end _right now_.

They could change the plot any time they want, but we know they just concluded it without addressing it in Shadowlands.

Right...
That's why they feature in the pre-Shadowlands book, Shadows Rising, right? because they abandoned those things.

Ozumat and Neptulon. Do you not acknowledge that Blizzard is capable of abandoning plot lines?

Also, as I said. I think Dark Ranger was planned and the decision to make them playable was scrapped. Shadows Rising could have been written before they finalized a decision to scrap the Dark Ranger class, and that's why we see such a rushed ending to BFA tying up the Loyalist plotline and doing nothing else with it in Shadowlands.

Never said anything in Cata led to MoP. Read my quote again.

Yes, because you cherry picked everything else. It's not a pattern or a theme if I can easily break it by pointing out how flexible Cata could transition into any number of future theme expansions.

You gotta be kidding, right?

A Dark Warden is not a Dark Ranger.

You acknowledge a living Warden is not a Ranger, right? Being raised as a Dark Warden in death means they are still Wardens, not Rangers.

Are you implying you think these are the same class?

Maybe not right now. But, in the future.

I've been saying that from the start. You just kept arguing for no reason.

I know what it means. And, it's interchangeable. Because, as far as we know, the First Ones created the different cosmic forces and ordered them. So, you're kinda mixing things up.

Khadgar literally mentions Elune creating X'era during the Ordering of Light and Shadow. What exactly is your misunderstanding here? I said Elune has a connection to the Ordering of Light and Shadow because she created X'era during this time. Is that not clear?

Connection to the ordering is not interchangeable with being responsible for the ordering. You don't know what it means if tou think it is interchangeable, I am correcting you.

That's kind of a cheap solution. At least Allied Races got their own racial traits. What would class skins get that is not cosmetic?

New talents.

Warrior would not have Windwalk or Mirror Image as a talent, a Hunter would not have Possession or Haunting Wave as a talent.

But we could have a Blademaster that uses Warrior abilities, and given its own Blademaster talents (with some crossover with Warrior talents). We could have a Dark Ranger with re-themed Hunter abilities, and Dark Ranger talents (with some crossover Hunter talents).

Same class gameplay, new talents, new ability names and FX, new class identity.

And yes, I agree it's a cheap solution. Exactly what I think Blizzard would do, because it's cheap.



- From a previous post -

Like what? Show me an example of what Legion could have been and could have introduced.

Gul'dan was the only link between WoD and Legion. Without Gul'dan, no return of Illidan, no demon invasion, no return of Sargeras.

The story for Legion isn't completely centered around demons - it's about exploring the Broken Isles, exploring the Artifacts, and gathering the Pillars of Creation. And who would be the big bad we have to face? What about N'zoth? Blizzard already had Old God agents and themes all throughout the Broken Isles.

- N'zoth's forces invade Broken Shore, same characters die. Vol'jin, Varian, Tirion, all victims of the agents of N'zoth.
- N'zoth's agents seek the Pillars of Creation. We are there to claim them.
- Emerald Nightmare - This could be expanded into a larger part of the expansion. This raid was already connected to N'zoth.
- Suramar plotline swaps out Sargeras for Azshara or N'zoth. Deals with a different devil.
- Azshara and the Tidestone is already featured in Legion, expand her influence. She is already an agent of N'zoth.
- Tomb of Sargeras swapped out, Nazjatar swapped in.
- Black Empire is the end raid setting instead of Argus. Just switch up BFA's ending into Legion.
- Wrathion becomes the stand-in for Illidan. Illidan was the key to defeating Sargeras, Wrathion was the key to defeating N'zoth.
- N'zoth's defeat causes Azerite to spread out in the world. Lead straight into Zandalar, Kul Tiras, and a different set of end bosses.

Instead of Demon Hunters, Wrathion creates the Dragonsworn, mortals blessed with Draconic powers.

All of the same beats of the Legion expansion. It's basically the same setting and story with a different theme. Instead of demons, we have old god shenanigans.

With a few changes, we can turn any expansion into a whole different theme. With a different theme, we can introduce a different class.

Blademasters - The return of Samuro, who has travelled to a Japanese-themed subcontinent and taught new Blademasters. Monks 2.0
Shadow Hunters - Vol'jin ascends to a Loa, who wakens dormant Loa around Azeroth and spreads their teachings to the other races.
Tinkers - The Trade Princes of Kezan have abducted you, a genius Tinker, as a slave to work on super weapons. Alliance/Horde forces attack the secret weapon facility, allowing you to escape in your secretly-built mech suit and aid them in freeing the other slaves.

The question isn't *how* Blizzard adds these classes, but if they *intend to* add them. The question of intent isn't passed off by hints in the narrative or patterns in the game, it's through meetings with rooms full of designers all brainstorming what they should do for the next expansion.

And as much fun as it is to brainstorm ideas that could happen in the game, that's not how game designers think. Game designers solve problems. Real problems that affect the game, like player interest going down, or balance issues getting out of hand, or deciding whether it's a good time to introduce a new class. If you have to ask a question like 'Why would Blizzard add Night Elf Dark Rangers and do nothing with it' then you're not actually thinking like a Game Designer. You need to recognize that designers aren't married to their ideas, and they have to make changes that fit their intentions. If they feel the game is not ready for a new class, then they will move on until there is another chance to make a new class. They don't just decide 'Dark Ranger!' and suddenly all their efforts will be focused on keeping that dream alive.

We already know what happened with the Runemaster.

[Ielenia]

Simply fun brainstorming
You know, they're not always serious on those meetings.

And if it was just "simply fun brainstorming", first, they're wasting time they could be using actually doing their jobs, and second, why even mention the runemaster as a serious candidate as the Wrath expansion's class if that wasn't the case?

Now, for real. If they, actually, had sketches for abilities, armor sets, talents, customization and such for the Necromancer and Runemaster, i might have agreed with you. But, they were only on a conceptual level.

How do you know they haven't?

They didn't bother to update her model or even give her a reused Naga one. The point is, she didn't feature as much you imply she did. In terms of setting up, she was very slightly used.

She literally used Lady Vashj's model, only with transparent/translucent textures instead. And she was set up enough. Every time she appeared, we learned a little more about her plans.

Isn't she?

No. She isn't. Because, unlike Garrosh, her plans are not her own. Garrosh was "his own boss", so to speak, but here we learn that Sylvanas was just an underling.

Well, i don't mean to let her be the last boss just to be killed by Thrall the next expansion. But, come on, a sidekick? She could have at least featured alongside the Jailer himself as a raid encounter.

She's not a sidekick. She's an underling.

And the Forsaken were, totally, evil. Nothing surprising about any of them turning evil. She hated the living beforehand, after all.

Not really. Some were, but some were just trying to go by. The forsaken "race" was not evil, by default. And no, Sylvanas didn't hate the living beforehand. This only started after she became a banshee.

If they were introduced as villains, what separates them from Gul'dan or Azshara, who were not given as much spotlight as them. The fact that they were faction leaders? part of us? and not outside threats?

That's the thing: they (i.e. Garrosh and Sylvanas) weren't introduced as villains. They where introduced as good guys, or at the very least, ambivalent characters.

To tell you the truth, it was hella successful with Garrosh. Less so with Sylvanas. She's just not that charismatic.

If you truly think Blizzard was "successful" with Garrosh, then you haven't been paying attention to these forums. A lot of people complained about how Blizzard mishandled Garrosh and how his decent into evil in MoP was out-of-character considering the character growth he got in Cataclysm into a more honorable (if brash and hot-headed) leader.

Is putting him in HotS and Hearthstone as the representative of the class my idea? no, it was Blizzard's.

But it is your opinion that this means Samuro is more important than Jubei'thos.

Because an arcanist is a Mage.

How do you know? Have you asked Blizzard to be this sure about this statement?

We're down low if we think this was, actually, considered.

I don't think it was considered. But I also don't think it wasn't. Because I don't know. To state either way is a fallacy because we're not privy to the contents of Blizzard's expansion design discussions.

Too bad i didn't bet on it, back then. Because i sure as hell would have won the money.

And then you would have lost it all again, if not even more so, when Shadowlands came around, since it didn't bring any class.

There are levels of roleplay - of how much you take it seriously. But, in its core its a roleplaying game. At the end of the day, you have to pick a race and a class out of an assortment of those and customize your character.

The only roleplay that MMORP games offer is the ability to play a class and race, not roleplay. It's as much as Super Mario World is an open-world game. There is no actual roleplaying in a MMORP game. I cannot haggle with the shop-keeper to get better prices. I cannot persuade a quest giver to give me a better reward than what they offer. I cannot intimidate the mob into giving me the quest item they hold. I cannot have my character switch allegiances. As a rogue, I do not have the option to pick-pocket members of my own faction. Etc, etc. Despite the name, there is no actual 'roleplaying'. To the point that "RPGs" basically became synonym with games in which you can customize your character, looks and/or abilities. There is no "interpretation of roles" in a MMORPG. At least none that you, as a player, do. The game, instead, does the "interpretation" for you.

The thing is, you wrongly see roleplaying as only the hardcore ones.

"Wrongly"? And "hardcore"? Really? Read what 'roleplaying' means. What, do you call TTRPG players "try-hards" and "hardcores"?

Oh. Of course it is separate. The question was how it would compete, and win, over other types of blood casting? or, are you suggesting combining all types of blood casters out there?

Why does it have to be a competition? Answer me something, please: who wins in the following 'competitions'? Arcane fire (mage), demonic fire (warlock) or elemental fire (shaman)? Arcane frost (mage) or necromantic frost (death knight)? Chi-infused water healing (monk) or elemental water healing (shaman)?

[pacotaco]

You just said they had to fit the expansion. Blademaster don't fit Dragon Isles or Light/Void unless we take an old concept they made of a dragonman looking like a samurai.
Tinker doesn't fit any of them. While there is basis for both of them, none of them really fit the expansions mentioned, just like Dark Ranger doesn't.

It depends of the themes of the Dragon Isles. Saying that Dragon Isles theme is "Dragons" is just to generic. All dragons? The Aspects? New dragonflights? And what about them? What's the history?
Pandaria wasn't just "panda people". It had asian influence, it talked about the damage of the war, about peace, about emotions, etc. The monk fits all those themes.
You can make Blademasters fit if you talk about perseverance, redemption, mysticism, etc.
I agree with Tinkers and DRs not fitting. In my opinion, their window of oportunity to be added just passed (BFA and SL respectively) and will need to wait to the next one.

While they were pushing for it, Sylvanas isn't in the spotlight solely for female empowerment. Otherwise, she would have been the big bad boss of Shadowlands and not a sidekick to a male villain (the Jailer). That's de-empowering.

Wut?

She was, always, kind of bad. Nothing surprising about that. She didn't, exactly, project lavender and roses, did she? No need to put so much effort into making her into a villain.

Still you need to explain it, or you end like Illidan on TBC: we went to Outland full murderhobo mode, without knowing why the hell he suddenly was bad, attacking the very place that fought to protect.

They, really, couldn't. All that juggling was in concept and we ended up with Death Knights.

You're asuming that because they chose DK over the other 2, then that confirms that the other 2 weren't chosen becaus they didn't fit.
You're falling into a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

I'll tell you what i told lelenia:
Guardian is good at countering the Legion? let's make another arcane-based class! They would be empowered to eradicate anything and everything. Sounds reasonable? no. That's just toying around. Tinker fits Legion as much as it fits WoD or BfA due to their mechanical themes. Having certain themes play a part in an expansion doesn't mean that the entire expansion revolves around it. Hence, why Demon Hunter matched the expansion.

?

You know what?
I've been thinking about it... there was a supposed leaked image of a Maldraxxian Ziggurat flying over Borean Tundra.

And, today, i saw a video of Accolon about the future of Sylvanas. It made me think. What if the Jailer gets to Azeroth, Sylvanas betrays him and rounds up the Dark Rangers to counter him on Azeroth and, in a never before seen move from Blizzard, they add a class mid-expansion for the first time in order to not reveal that in the beginning of the expansion. Wild, huh?

Highly unlikely. Classes are a good box seller. Keeping them secret is just to lose sells for no reason.

Yea... no, not as much as the Murloc. The guys can't speak much, they don't have a culture, they're beyond primitive. Pandaren at least could communicate, has a chinese-based culture and can, actually be integrated into a faction. People just see them as a joke because they're fluffy. I don't.

Just saying, it could be possible, although is very improbable.

What about playable Forsaken Hunter which are considered Dark Rangers?
Sylvanas herself, also, raised several Dark Rangers.

Well, the lore for Forsaken Hunters says it can be taught.
Hmmm... never thought about it. Was thinking more towards Rangers in life. But, then i remembered everyone could be a Death Knight so, i don't know.

Where does it say Forsaken Hunters are Dark Rangers? Is there a quest or something? First time I heard it.