1. #6681
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    Instead of a new class i would prefer a 4th spec,
    that stems from the powers within SL at least get one lasting legacy from this expansion.

  2. #6682
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's not making adjustments to fit the Demon Hunter into the expansion. That's making adjustments to fit Illidan and his Illidari into the expansion. If you used different figures, the Demon Hunter would still fit.
    They're one and the same though. Every playable Demon Hunter is Illidari. That is how they decided to make Demon Hunters playable. There's nothing that says that they had to go this route, but they did. They could have done exactly the same thing with literally any class.

    "We ally with Demon Hunters because they know the Legion better than anyone."

    or

    "We ally with Tinkers because the Legion has never experienced technology like this."

    or

    "We ally with Necromancers because the Legion's greatest weapon is fear, and the dead know no fear."

    or

    "We ally with Dragonsworn because we'll need the power of the protectors of Azeroth to combat this threat."

    It's all just narrative and how Blizzard spins the introduction.
    Last edited by jellmoo; 2021-05-26 at 10:56 PM.

  3. #6683
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    They're one and the same though. Every playable Demon Hunter is Illidari. That is how they decided to make Demon Hunters playable. There's nothing that says that they had to go this route, but they did. They could have done exactly the same thing with literally any class.

    "We ally with Demon Hunters because they know the Legion better than anyone."

    or

    "We ally with Tinkers because the Legion has never experienced technology like this."

    or

    "We ally with Necromancers because the Legion's greatest weapon is fear, and the dead know no fear."

    or

    "We ally with Dragonsworn because we'll need the power of the protectors of Azeroth to combat this threat."

    It's all just narrative and how Blizzard spins the introduction.
    "We ally with Bards because.... they have pretty voices...."

    :P

  4. #6684
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    "We ally with Bards because.... they have pretty voices...."

    :P
    I was actually seriously going to write "We ally with Bards because they are masters of the old stories, and the old stories tell us of the Pillars of Creation."

    But I like yours better.

  5. #6685
    Said it before, ill say it again - They should just FULLY rework every spec and class in the bloody game at this point. Yes, you'll have some VERY angry people, and im only putting my personal opinion forward here, but I would love to see the entire class / spec system redone from the ground up.

    Yes, some of the reworks they have done have been hit/miss, but so are MANY of the specs at the moment anyway. I just think SL has shown that finally, after all these years, even fans of "modern" wow have said "this is boring". I see so many people trying to put their finger on WHY they dont like SL, but ultimately, i believe it boils down to the class system being boring, and outdated.

    It wont happen, I know that, but I would be a huge fan of a complete reshuffle - Make a battlemage that fights in melee, imbuing their sword with fire / ice magic - Make a range rogue spec, a warlock tank, a bard, a runemaster, a necro - either replace an existing spec or create a 3rd/4th/5th spec (depending on class) if needed. If that is too "bold" of a move, look at class skins.

    Its time for another MASSIVE shakeup of the game, and time to try bring NEW blood into the game, even if its at the cost of some 15+ year vets, including me. Hell, they all have classic TBC and no doubt Classic Wrath to enjoy anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #6686
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The rule is, fit's the theme of the expansion, right? In Legion, the theme is literally just "all of Azeroth is facing the threat of the Legion, with the potential for all life on Azeroth to be destroyed." In a situation where all life on the planet could be destroyed or subjugated, that's definitely a good enough reason for any and all able bodied combatants, ie new classes we've never seen before, to come out of the woodwork to fight against the Legion. in a situation like that, the class doesn't NEED to be themed around the Legion, it just needs to be themed around wanting to fight for their right to exist, which could be literally anything.



    See above.
    Demon Hunter was still the only obvious choice because it was a dark concept appealing visually and in terms of its lore to a mass audience represented by one of the most popular and well known Warcraft characters, specifically designed to emulate that character. This pattern of creating a new class has proven itself to be very successful in creating hype and engagement for a new expansion back in Wotlk with the Death Knights who emulate Arthas Menethil, while creating a more whimsical lighthearted class based on a similar hero wasn't that successful initially and created nowhere near the engagement and hype Death Knights created. And they were proven right, Demon Hunters created lots of hype and were immediately one of the most popular classes in the game.

  7. #6687
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Demon Hunter was still the only obvious choice because it was a dark concept appealing visually and in terms of its lore to a mass audience represented by one of the most popular and well known Warcraft characters, specifically designed to emulate that character. This pattern of creating a new class has proven itself to be very successful in creating hype and engagement for a new expansion back in Wotlk with the Death Knights who emulate Arthas Menethil, while creating a more whimsical lighthearted class based on a similar hero wasn't that successful initially and created nowhere near the engagement and hype Death Knights created. And they were proven right, Demon Hunters created lots of hype and were immediately one of the most popular classes in the game.
    I never stated otherwise.

    Merely that, from a lore perspective, introducing a threat that anyone and everyone wants to fight against is a perfect opportunity to introduce ANY class. Just because one class fits better, or makes more sense, doesn't mean other classes don't fit at all or make no sense.

  8. #6688
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Class skin is definitely more easy to do and are probably how they will do those things, but i think its so much of a waste.

    Every race but druids getting a 4th spec would be so much better, and rly something possible, but i guess it would be a nightmare to balance since they can't deal with the current ones
    4th specs would be even better, I just know how Blizzard likes to take the easiest path these days. Kind of like how Allied Races didn't have a city, starting zone, etc. or how the new customization options were pretty much "make up your own headcanon to explain them." For that reason, I'm setting my expectations very low. That way, I can be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

  9. #6689
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And what framework is that? Also, you're right in that it's not whatever the fuck YOU like. It's whatever Blizzard wants.
    True. But, they also have stick to some set of rules. They can't just bring in a Bard class one day to fight the Legion, with no proper background or explanation.

    But weren't Demon Hunters themselves. What class were they? What other skills or abilities did they have?

    Or are you seriously going to try and imply that because they use the same weapon, that they're the same thing? Go ahead, try it.
    They were Warriors. We don't know much more about them. You know who else was said to be a Warrior? the Demon Hunter in Warcraft 3.

    That's one faction that's united to fight them. What about the races on the hundreds of other worlds that the Legion invaded?

    Also, can you comprehensively explain and describe what class each and every member of the Army of Light is? Or are you implying that every.single.member is a Paladin, Demon Hunter, Mage or Warlock?

    Or are you arguing that only Lightforged Draenei are soldiers within the Army of Light?
    We don't know of any other planet who resisted the Legion. That's why i was asking for other examples.

    Well... Paladin is the only class who had light abilities that were effective against demons. Priests only had against undead. And by the way, you can kinda tell that from the word Army. Not to mention Lightforged Draenei have a racial based around slaying demons.

    Do YOU have more examples? Because your weak attempt to prove your argument wasn't very effective.
    Nice way of dissing me without really answering the question. Real mature and proper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That'd only be true if that person were incapable of replying.

    You've shown here that you are fully capable of replying and only choose not to, so there's nothing unfair about it.
    You kinda tied my hands behind my back.
    Just sayin'

    It's not, really, on equal terms if you can just remove the other side whenever you feel like it during the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    With what you wrote there, you heavily imply that the "themes of the expansions" exist solely to allow classes to be added, which is a demonstrably false idea.
    No, it isn't. You just presume it is. You and the others believe anything could have been added in any expansion even though the evidence show otherwise. So, who's the speculative here?

    Legion? It's rather easy. Again, the story has been presented as "Azeroth's most desperate hour", therefore technically any class would fit, considering I imagine all would be interested in keeping their world demon-free.
    Again: Any expansion.
    Scourge and the Lich King? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Deathwing and the Cataclysm? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Iron Horde invasion? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Sword stuck in its core and old god released? Azeroth's most dire time.
    The afterlife shattered and death comes to claim its soul? Azeroth's most dire time.

    Every expansion is "Azeroth's most dire time". What you and the others are describing here are all of the expansions in general, and then claim it is unique to Legion - therefore any class can be added. Which, is wrong. It's like Dragon Ball Z. We always believe the next big bad is the real shit, until someone stronger comes along.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    They're one and the same though. Every playable Demon Hunter is Illidari. That is how they decided to make Demon Hunters playable. There's nothing that says that they had to go this route, but they did. They could have done exactly the same thing with literally any class.

    "We ally with Demon Hunters because they know the Legion better than anyone."

    or

    "We ally with Tinkers because the Legion has never experienced technology like this."

    or

    "We ally with Necromancers because the Legion's greatest weapon is fear, and the dead know no fear."

    or

    "We ally with Dragonsworn because we'll need the power of the protectors of Azeroth to combat this threat."

    It's all just narrative and how Blizzard spins the introduction.
    Nope. That's just made up backgrounds.
    Demon Hunters had a history of fighting the Legion and Demons (they are Demon Hunters, after all).

    All these other examples you gave are not based on anything in game. It's just your made up narrative. Legion can't handle technology? they have technology of their own.
    Legion can't handle undead? the Scourge was under their control.
    Dragons are the key against the Legion? they fought to protect the planet from Old Gods, as well. They're just general protectors.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-05-27 at 08:57 AM.

  10. #6690
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Class skin is definitely more easy to do and are probably how they will do those things, but i think its so much of a waste.

    Every race but druids getting a 4th spec would be so much better, and rly something possible, but i guess it would be a nightmare to balance since they can't deal with the current ones
    i think u mean spec and yeah first they need to actually give DH more abilities in their already slim joke specs before they even add a 3rd spec
    ONLY then we can dream of a 4th spec for every class, but DH showed how bankrupt blizz is at implementing ideas

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    They're one and the same though. Every playable Demon Hunter is Illidari. That is how they decided to make Demon Hunters playable. There's nothing that says that they had to go this route, but they did. They could have done exactly the same thing with literally any class.

    "We ally with Demon Hunters because they know the Legion better than anyone."

    or

    "We ally with Tinkers because the Legion has never experienced technology like this."

    or

    "We ally with Necromancers because the Legion's greatest weapon is fear, and the dead know no fear."

    or

    "We ally with Dragonsworn because we'll need the power of the protectors of Azeroth to combat this threat."

    It's all just narrative and how Blizzard spins the introduction.
    I'm surprised how u make it do make sense
    Still DH have strongest impression (mainly because how insanely popular they were during wc3 in first place), but yeah it does make sense what u wrote
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  11. #6691
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    4th specs would be even better, I just know how Blizzard likes to take the easiest path these days. Kind of like how Allied Races didn't have a city, starting zone, etc. or how the new customization options were pretty much "make up your own headcanon to explain them." For that reason, I'm setting my expectations very low. That way, I can be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.
    4th specs aren't happening for multiple reasons;

    1. There's not enough material to add a 4th spec to every class.
    2. We have existing specs that need overhauls.
    3. Every class wouldn't get a 4th spec (Druids and Demon Hunters).
    4. It would be a balancing nightmare for Blizzard, since it would be the equivalent of adding 4 new classes.

  12. #6692
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    True. But, they also have stick to some set of rules. They can't just bring in a Bard class one day to fight the Legion, with no proper background or explanation.
    There are no mystical set of rules though. The development team, no dev team for that matter, handcuffs themselves with made up rules that limit what they can or can't add to the game. If they have an idea that they think is super awesome, the absolutely can shelve another idea and run with it, even if it's less developed, less obvious, or less hinted at.

    There is no rule here, only the human mind detecting patterns.

    Nope. That's just made up backgrounds.
    Demon Hunters had a history of fighting the Legion and Demons (they are Demon Hunters, after all).

    All these other examples you gave are not based on anything in game. It's just your made up narrative. Legion can't handle technology? they have technology of their own.
    Legion can't handle undead? the Scourge was under their control.
    Dragons are the key against the Legion? they fought to protect the planet from Old Gods, as well. They're just general protectors.

    Everything
    is a made up background. The Illidari have a made up background. That's because Blizzard, shock of all shocks, control the narrative of the game.

    Everyone has a history of fighting the Legion at this point. Demon Hunters are not unique in this regard. Hell, they were retconned to be the Demon fighters that they are.

    It's all made up narrative my man. They literally had to change the narrative in order to include Demon Hunters. They could just as easily change the narrative to make any class fill that spot. Blizzard does this all the time. They could have used any class concept at all. Heck, they could have piggy backed the Army of the Light storyline and given us a Light based ranged dps class instead. Something brand new, and still it would have worked because they craft the narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    I'm surprised how u make it do make sense
    Still DH have strongest impression (mainly because how insanely popular they were during wc3 in first place), but yeah it does make sense what u wrote
    Sure. But there's two arguments at play. Somebody saying "Demon Hunters made the most sense and I think we're the most likely class to be added" makes a ton of sense.

    Somebody saying "Demon Hunters were the only class that could have been added. Nothing else is possible" is an absolute statement that simply isn't true and can't be proven unless you happen to be a member of the WoW dev team.

  13. #6693
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, it isn't. You just presume it is. You and the others believe anything could have been added in any expansion even though the evidence show otherwise. So, who's the speculative here?
    I'm sorry, but no. You were the one "presuming" it is. You literally wrote that, "if the class doesn't have to match the expansion's theme, what's the point of having a theme for an expansion? Just give it generic, unnamed threats":
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Then, i ask again. What's the point of differentiating the themes of the expansions if just anybody fits? Just say fuck it. Azeroth is under attack by an unidentified, ungendered, neutral, abstract, undefined fart.
    You're literally arguing in bad faith, here. Then complain when people call you out.

    Again: Any expansion.
    Scourge and the Lich King? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Deathwing and the Cataclysm? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Iron Horde invasion? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Sword stuck in its core and old god released? Azeroth's most dire time.
    The afterlife shattered and death comes to claim its soul? Azeroth's most dire time.


    Every expansion is "Azeroth's most dire time". What you and the others are describing here are all of the expansions in general, and then claim it is unique to Legion - therefore any class can be added. Which, is wrong. It's like Dragon Ball Z. We always believe the next big bad is the real shit, until someone stronger comes along.
    You're getting really close to becoming self-aware. We don't have to have the classes match the expansion themes. Would it help? Arguably, it would help. But it's not a necessity. Runemaster was considered as a class idea for Wrath. That alone backs up the idea that the class doesn't have to perfectly match the expansion's theme.

    Nope. That's just made up backgrounds.
    Demon Hunters had a history of fighting the Legion and Demons (they are Demon Hunters, after all).

    All these other examples you gave are not based on anything in game. It's just your made up narrative. Legion can't handle technology? they have technology of their own.
    Legion can't handle undead? the Scourge was under their control.
    Dragons are the key against the Legion? they fought to protect the planet from Old Gods, as well. They're just general protectors.
    So is the reason we allied with demon hunters. "Made-up backgrounds". Because, I'll remind you: the demon hunters were basically done for in TBC, when we killed a whole lot of them, and killed Illidan. Not to mention that, in MoP, we have Wrathion literally talking about the second coming of the Burning Legion and the need to prepare against it. So it wouldn't be as "made-up" as you claim it is to say Wrathion has been training his dragonsworn since MoP, in preparation for the Legion's second coming.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-05-27 at 02:57 PM.
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  14. #6694
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    True. But, they also have stick to some set of rules. They can't just bring in a Bard class one day to fight the Legion, with no proper background or explanation.
    Up until each of the expansions launched with a new class, there was no explanation for it. The classes did have a background in WoW lore, but that's more of a bonus than a requirement. Blizzard can write a story for whatever class they want to add. Just look at Void Elves and LFD, those didn't exist until Legion... yet we got them as a playable race in Legion. Why couldn't they do the same thing with a new class?

    They were Warriors. We don't know much more about them. You know who else was said to be a Warrior? the Demon Hunter in Warcraft 3.
    My point is we don't know what other abilities they had, we just know what weapons they used. Also in lore, the term "Warrior" doesn't always refer to the specific class, Warrior, it's just a generic term for someone that fights the same way that soldiers is a generic term for people fighting in the armed forces.

    We don't know of any other planet who resisted the Legion. That's why i was asking for other examples.
    We know of several actually. See the list in the link, many of which were targets of the Burning Legion.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Planet

    The point though is that nowhere in the lore does it describe what kinds of fighters the denizens of those planets were. So saying that only certain classes can fight the Legion is a ridiculous argument.

    Well... Paladin is the only class who had light abilities that were effective against demons.
    And there's no other class that uses light based abilities in the universe? Anywhere?

    I'll answer for you: I don't know or not that we know of. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

    Priests only had against undead.
    So, the light based damage attacks Priests do don't affect demons? That's news to me. So the smite spell I was using while I leveled through Legion and fought demons with was....praying the demon away, or something?

    And by the way, you can kinda tell that from the word Army.
    You're apparently not paying attention, at all.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Army_of_the_Light

    There are several non LFD character within the Army of the Light, it is not comprised solely of LFD.

    Not to mention their commanders, Alleria and Turalyon, aren't LFD.

    Not to mention Lightforged Draenei have a racial based around slaying demons.
    Yeah, to gain more experience from them. Trolls have the same racial for killing beasts. Does that mean they're the only ones that know how to kill or are effective at killing beasts?

    Nice way of dissing me without really answering the question. Real mature and proper.
    The irony of this is a little astounding.

    You throwing out ridiculous statements as some kind of non-answer to what people are saying and you think THAT's mature? Ok....

    No, it isn't. You just presume it is. You and the others believe anything could have been added in any expansion even though the evidence show otherwise. So, who's the speculative here?
    So you believe the expansions were created solely to introduce the classes and therefore those were the only classes that COULD have ever been introduced?

    As I said before, your apparent lack of imagination is not my problem.

    Again: Any expansion.
    Scourge and the Lich King? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Deathwing and the Cataclysm? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Iron Horde invasion? Azeroth's most dire time.
    Sword stuck in its core and old god released? Azeroth's most dire time.
    The afterlife shattered and death comes to claim its soul? Azeroth's most dire time.

    Every expansion is "Azeroth's most dire time". What you and the others are describing here are all of the expansions in general, and then claim it is unique to Legion - therefore any class can be added. Which, is wrong. It's like Dragon Ball Z. We always believe the next big bad is the real shit, until someone stronger comes along.
    Well...at the time it WAS Azeroth's most dire time, because we didn't know any better. See more below...

    Nope. That's just made up backgrounds.
    Demon Hunters had a history of fighting the Legion and Demons (they are Demon Hunters, after all).
    And up until Blizzard created the lore for these classes, it was just made up backgrounds. Do you even understand the creative process? Things don't exist....until someone creates them. With your logic no one anywhere would ever create any new class because it's just "made up backgrounds."

    All these other examples you gave are not based on anything in game. It's just your made up narrative. Legion can't handle technology? they have technology of their own
    .

    Technology, LIKE THIS. That's a key phrase.

    Are all guns the same? I had no idea that the rifles in the civil war are exactly the same as the rifles we have now.

    Legion can't handle undead? the Scourge was under their control.
    Again...that's not what those words said.

    Dragons are the key against the Legion? they fought to protect the planet from Old Gods, as well. They're just general protectors.
    AGAIN, that's not what that statement said. Words have meaning. You can't just go changing the words other people use to the words you want. That changes the meaning.

  15. #6695
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You kinda tied my hands behind my back.
    Just sayin'

    It's not, really, on equal terms if you can just remove the other side whenever you feel like it during the argument.
    I don't consider it fair or equal terms when the other side is twisting my words and arguing something I didn't say. I don't consider it fair when someone baits a bad faith argument.

    Whether they choose to respond or not is their own accountability, so it's not unfair if they choose not to answer. My responses are being well recognized by others in the thread.

    I mean I'll even respond to the examples you put in the game.


    Legion can't handle Tech - No one said they can't handle technology. What's being implied is a new Tech Class provides weapons that could be used effectively to fight off the big threat - which happens to be Demons right now.
    Legion can't handle Undead - No one said they can't handle undead. Undead are simply resistant to their ability to spread fear, which gives them an advantage in one area of fighting Demons.
    Dragons are key against Legion - No one said they are the Key, they are simply effective at protecting Azeroth.

    What you've done is twisted an argument for how a class could be effective and related to the Demon threat into having to be a necessary key to its defeat. This is an artificial requirement that you've applied to Legion's setting, which did not require a class that counters Demons.

    Here's a truth bomb - Illidari Demon Hunters were not the key to the Legion's defeat in the story. The Pillars of Creation and the Artifacts under the Champion's possession were the key. Demon Hunters provided a very significant role in helping defeat the legion, but the Illidari are not credited beyond any other class' contribution to the efforts. It was a combined effort all around, with equal credit applied to every class and Order Hall organization.

    This means that any number of new class concepts could have fit a role in the story in the fight against Demons. Jellmoo is correct that the Legion posed as a Global threat that would have applied to any number of different classes. Even a Bard could have been introduced, given that Blizzard really wanted them playable badly enough to write them into that particular story. Having "Lorewalkers" sing tales of the Pillars of Creation and helping everyone find them could be just as significant a role in defeating Sargeras and the Legion as anything else.



    Whether a class or a race is playable or not does not really affect the story or narrative. We didn't have playable Highmountain, Lightforged or Nightborne in Legion, yet all three contributed significant efforts against fighting the Legion. We know these races are playable because they were made playable in BFA. Even if the Illidari were not made playable as the Demon Hunter class, they would have contributed their efforts in the narrative as an NPC faction.

    Playable classes do not need to be centered in the plot. Monks were never at the center of MoP's storyline, and it worked out just fine that way. What Blizzard devs have told us is that the setting and story simply informs what Classes they decide to add to the game; and it's a thinly veiled PR response when considering they have full control of the narrative setting and story of every expansion. Mongrel Horde is one example of that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-27 at 05:11 PM.

  16. #6696
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I never stated otherwise.

    Merely that, from a lore perspective, introducing a threat that anyone and everyone wants to fight against is a perfect opportunity to introduce ANY class. Just because one class fits better, or makes more sense, doesn't mean other classes don't fit at all or make no sense.
    Yeah, but I think Lore isn't the only factor. Another one is Marketability and how much a potential class may appeal to the current playerbase, creat cloud surrounding the upcoming expansion and serve as an additional incentive to buy the new expansion for the playerbase. Naturally, being basically like one of the biggest characters in the franchise works perfectly for that. I think another one may be personal dev biases. I think that might have been the case in Mist of Pandaria with the Monks. Its possible that they also tried to profit out of Kungfu Panda and maybe hoped to appeal to a younger audience, but I also think that both were also passion projects of the lead devs.

    Which is why I can see Dark Ranger still happening with the Dev Team. They obviously have a sweet spot for Sylvanas, looking at how prominent she was for the last three expansions and we know that at least the narrative lead dev is a hugh fan of her and Nathanos, the two big Dark Rangers.

  17. #6697
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Yeah, but I think Lore isn't the only factor. Another one is Marketability and how much a potential class may appeal to the current playerbase, creat cloud surrounding the upcoming expansion and serve as an additional incentive to buy the new expansion for the playerbase.
    While I don't disagree, this is a separate discussion, somewhat. We're not arguing about what actually WILL get put into the game, just what feasible choices there are. Of course there are other, more real world factors, like you describe but those real world issues don't affect what CAN be in game lore or narrative.

    Naturally, being basically like one of the biggest characters in the franchise works perfectly for that. I think another one may be personal dev biases. I think that might have been the case in Mist of Pandaria with the Monks. Its possible that they also tried to profit out of Kungfu Panda and maybe hoped to appeal to a younger audience, but I also think that both were also passion projects of the lead devs.
    The Pandaren and the basic concept for a Monk class existed well before Kung Fu Panda. Not sure if that's what their marketing strategy was or not, but...eh. Doesn't matter to me at this point.

    I honestly don't understand all the hate for MoP it was one of my favorite expansions. People with anti-fun brains or something just can't get passed "hue hue Panda, her der"

    Which is why I can see Dark Ranger still happening with the Dev Team. They obviously have a sweet spot for Sylvanas, looking at how prominent she was for the last three expansions and we know that at least the narrative lead dev is a hugh fan of her and Nathanos, the two big Dark Rangers.
    I would enjoy an actual Dark Ranger class.

  18. #6698
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    There are no mystical set of rules though. The development team, no dev team for that matter, handcuffs themselves with made up rules that limit what they can or can't add to the game. If they have an idea that they think is super awesome, the absolutely can shelve another idea and run with it, even if it's less developed, less obvious, or less hinted at.

    There is no rule here, only the human mind detecting patterns.
    Of course they can do whatever they want. It's their game. But, they can't go wild one day and decide they want to introduce a pole dancer class because they think it's appealing. There is still some kind of a framework they need to work in.


    Everything
    is a made up background. The Illidari have a made up background. That's because Blizzard, shock of all shocks, control the narrative of the game.

    Everyone has a history of fighting the Legion at this point. Demon Hunters are not unique in this regard. Hell, they were retconned to be the Demon fighters that they are.

    It's all made up narrative my man. They literally had to change the narrative in order to include Demon Hunters. They could just as easily change the narrative to make any class fill that spot. Blizzard does this all the time. They could have used any class concept at all. Heck, they could have piggy backed the Army of the Light storyline and given us a Light based ranged dps class instead. Something brand new, and still it would have worked because they craft the narrative.
    At least the Illidari background was established before, in TBC. The Supposed Tinker, Necromancer and Dragonsworn you made up isn't.

    "They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity." - info before Legion.

    So, they pretty much had the basis for it, which was expanded upon.

    Everyone had to fight them, but not everyone is specialized in countering them or wielding their powers.

    At least you understand that the Army of the Light - based class makes sense, since they have been conceived to counter the Legion, specifically, and not just any threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're getting really close to becoming self-aware. We don't have to have the classes match the expansion themes. Would it help? Arguably, it would help. But it's not a necessity. Runemaster was considered as a class idea for Wrath. That alone backs up the idea that the class doesn't have to perfectly match the expansion's theme.
    You don't seem to get what i was trying to do with that example. I was trying to show you how you and the others generalize Legion to just a dire threat, when every expansion is just that. You have to distinguish between the threats, otherwise all expansions would be the same.
    Accordingly, the classes added in those expansions would need to match, otherwise it would be as arbitrary as the expansion itself:
    "a Murloc invasion expansion, with Gazlowe's paradise as the main hub and a Rock N' Roll class" - why? because they can. You see how silly that is, right?

    So is the reason we allied with demon hunters. "Made-up backgrounds". Because, I'll remind you: the demon hunters were basically done for in TBC, when we killed a whole lot of them, and killed Illidan. Not to mention that, in MoP, we have Wrathion literally talking about the second coming of the Burning Legion and the need to prepare against it. So it wouldn't be as "made-up" as you claim it is to say Wrathion has been training his dragonsworn since MoP, in preparation for the Legion's second coming.
    Bringing back Illidan and his Demon Hunters was an adjustment to reintroduce the character back, not make the Demon Hunter more matching than it really was (thematically).

    You'd have a point with Wrathion.... if he didn't bring the Iron Horde to do it. The guy, mercilessly, let loose an entire Horde of Orcs upon Azeroth in a belief that they would take over and counter the Legion. So much for heroism, right there. I guess he doesn't believe in Dragons, but in brute, Orcish strength. In fact, he brought the Legion in the first place, through Gul'dan. So, you can say he's kind of their pawn

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Up until each of the expansions launched with a new class, there was no explanation for it. The classes did have a background in WoW lore, but that's more of a bonus than a requirement. Blizzard can write a story for whatever class they want to add. Just look at Void Elves and LFD, those didn't exist until Legion... yet we got them as a playable race in Legion. Why couldn't they do the same thing with a new class?
    Let me tell you about Void elves. So, they are basically the WoW version of Warhammer's Dark Elves. They just needed a way to add those to their game. And Void elves did have, somewhat, of a background:
    "The idea of blood elves dabbling with the Void is an old one, as High Astromancer Solarian could already turn into a voidwalker in The Burning Crusade. Also Elsaana mentions how blood elves of the Sunfury consume the energies of Outland's voidwalkers to power their magics."

    As for Lightforged Draenei, we knew about the Army of the Light since the days of TBC, when Velen had a vision of a grand of army of the Light, constituting of Draenei, Naaru, Mortal races and Dragon who would fight against the Burning Legion. In the end, Dragons were not included. Furthermore, the idea of light infused characters was not a new one:

    "The idea of people being depicted with their eyes glowing golden with the Light is an old one, starting with the paladins of the Second War as well as some depictions of Turalyon and Lady Liadrin. The paladin on the Spell holy divineillumination.png [Divine Favor] TCG card had glowing eyes too."

    We know of several actually. See the list in the link, many of which were targets of the Burning Legion.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Planet

    The point though is that nowhere in the lore does it describe what kinds of fighters the denizens of those planets were. So saying that only certain classes can fight the Legion is a ridiculous argument.
    World conquered by the Legion. Thing is, not much is mentioned about them. So, how can you introduce a class based on their actions?

    And there's no other class that uses light based abilities in the universe? Anywhere?

    I'll answer for you: I don't know or not that we know of. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
    "And can't pigs fly? just because we can't see 'em..." That's, basically, your argument. You're gonna need to do better than this.

    So, the light based damage attacks Priests do don't affect demons? That's news to me. So the smite spell I was using while I leveled through Legion and fought demons with was....praying the demon away, or something?
    No. Not in a specific way. It didn't cause extra damage to demons, stunned them or feared them like the Paladin's Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil. They only have Shackle Undead.

    You're apparently not paying attention, at all.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Army_of_the_Light

    There are several non LFD character within the Army of the Light, it is not comprised solely of LFD.

    Not to mention their commanders, Alleria and Turalyon, aren't LFD.
    But, the bulk of their army is LFD. That's like saying the Illidari are not about Demon Hunters because they have Nagas and Broken among them.

    Yeah, to gain more experience from them. Trolls have the same racial for killing beasts. Does that mean they're the only ones that know how to kill or are effective at killing beasts?
    *It is experience and not damage due to balance issues (See: Troll's Beast Slaying history).

    And yes, it makes them better at it than others.

    So you believe the expansions were created solely to introduce the classes and therefore those were the only classes that COULD have ever been introduced?

    As I said before, your apparent lack of imagination is not my problem.
    I don't have a lack of imagination. You have over-imagination. I still believe others could have been introduced due to fitting backgrounds and not bullshit i came up with to justify their addition.

    Necromancers, Dark Rangers and Paladins? could have been the WotLK classes. Why? Necromancers, like the Death Knight, use its powers. Sylvanas wanted a revenge against him. Argent Crusade was a major force against him.

    MoP? I don't, really, see anything else since its so Pandaren-centric. Everything RPG related to the Pandaren, in terms of classes, would have ended up as Monk. Perhaps, the Blademaster, somehow...

    Legion? as I said, Paladins, Warlock or even Mages could have replaced the Demon Hunter. Why? because Warlocks use its powers, Army of the Light was a major force against it and the Guardian was conceived to counter it.

    You see, i give reasons to my class suggestions. I don't just presume anything matches and come up with my own, twisted ideas for a matching class.

    Well...at the time it WAS Azeroth's most dire time, because we didn't know any better. See more below...
    -_-

    Like every expansion tells you it is.

    And up until Blizzard created the lore for these classes, it was just made up backgrounds. Do you even understand the creative process? Things don't exist....until someone creates them. With your logic no one anywhere would ever create any new class because it's just "made up backgrounds."
    Read and read carefully:

    Prior to their addition.

    Technology, LIKE THIS. That's a key phrase.

    Are all guns the same? I had no idea that the rifles in the civil war are exactly the same as the rifles we have now.



    Again...that's not what those words said.



    AGAIN, that's not what that statement said. Words have meaning. You can't just go changing the words other people use to the words you want. That changes the meaning.
    You do realize every 5 year old can come up with an explanation for a class matching the Legion expansion, right?

    "i...i...want...power ranger class...because...because...they're cool!"

    Bam! Here's your reason for a power ranger class -_-

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't consider it fair or equal terms when the other side is twisting my words and arguing something I didn't say. I don't consider it fair when someone baits a bad faith argument.

    Whether they choose to respond or not is their own accountability, so it's not unfair if they choose not to answer. My responses are being well recognized by others in the thread.
    You want to have a fair argument? drop the threats.

    Never have i threatened or reported anyone during an argument. Not even Teriz or Sygfreyd. I see it as backing off:

    "I can't, possibly, combat this guy. Whatever shall i do? i know, i'll report this guy."

  19. #6699
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Of course they can do whatever they want. It's their game. But, they can't go wild one day and decide they want to introduce a pole dancer class because they think it's appealing. There is still some kind of a framework they need to work in.
    They can. They can make a pole dancer class. Hell, FF14 has a Dancer class. Blizzard can make a Barber class, a Pig Farmer class or a Guy Named Fred that Likes to Smell Turkeys class. They can make any of those.

    Are they likely? Of course not. But don't say that the can't because that word choice is incorrect. They absolutely can. Words are important, so use the one you mean.

    At least the Illidari background was established before, in TBC. The Supposed Tinker, Necromancer and Dragonsworn you made up isn't.
    Tinkers and Necromancers absolutely already exist. These are already established things. I'm not sure why you think that Demon Hunters are unique in this regard. And even if not, Blizzard has shown that they are more than happy to make up the background of the new classes they introduce.

    Death Knights - Brand new origin
    Monk - Brand new class concept
    Demon Hunter - Brand new origin

    "They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity." - info before Legion.

    So, they pretty much had the basis for it, which was expanded upon.
    And then they were wiped out with their leader killed. No... Wait... They were actually sleeping in a special Night Elf prison this whole time and their leader was stolen by the Legion. That isn't expanding on a concept, that's retconning what happened. Which is fine, because that's the prerogative of the dev team. But if they are willing to rewrite the history of the game to fit in a new class, they can just as easily create a small bit of narrative to introduce a different class.

    Everyone had to fight them, but not everyone is specialized in countering them or wielding their powers.
    But that has nothing to do with the introduction of a class. Especially when you consider the sheer number of leaps Blizzard had to make in order to introduce a class that has a singular purpose and is now just kind of... there...

    At least you understand that the Army of the Light - based class makes sense, since they have been conceived to counter the Legion, specifically, and not just any threat.
    An Army of the Light based class makes sense because literally any new class makes sense within the context of the Legion expansion. Because the narrative of "An amry of demons is invading the world and wants eo eliminate all life" basically allows for any group of people to stand up and say "Hey... wait... I don't like that!"
    Last edited by jellmoo; 2021-05-27 at 05:23 PM.

  20. #6700
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You want to have a fair argument? drop the threats.

    Never have i threatened or reported anyone during an argument. Not even Teriz or Sygfreyd. I see it as backing off:

    "I can't, possibly, combat this guy. Whatever shall i do? i know, i'll report this guy."
    If you don't want to be banned, then follow the rules of the forum.

    Whether you realize it or not, you were trolling me. You were fishing for a response from me that you intended to use for the purpose of arguing. You asked me what I thought was most probable class, and when I gave an honest opinion, you attacked me for dismissing other class possibilities, including fabricating arguments that I did not make. I doubt you ever did this to Teriz or Syegfreyd. I warned you to stop and not to go down that path, and that I'd not take that sort of bullying from anyone. I do not wish to further continue this topic, as discussing moderation is against the rules.


    Back to the topic - Understand that as long as you publicly claim about rules for classes that do not actually exist, you're still accountable for those statements. As I said, I'm not here to debunk opinions. If you personally believe Demon Hunter is the only class that fits Legion, you can state so and we can all choose to agree or disagree respectfully. If you are making claims that imply any other possible class in Legion had to counter Demons, then we're all free to respond in kind.

    If the question you're asking implies tuning the narrative to fit a new class, then I see no reason to dismiss an example for having changed the narrative. You've done little to outline any rules for examples, and only dismiss them after fabricating artificial conditions that aren't applicable to any other Playable class. I think it's fair to point this out.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-05-27 at 06:16 PM.

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