1. #901
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Oh? That’s convenient for you, or did I miss the part where you recognize and concede that Necromancers do use Alchemy, poison, nature magic, and other schools of magic to which DKs do not? I wouldn’t want you to use the same debunked points in future arguments.
    Are there "Necromancer" NPCs that use those schools of magic, sure.

    Would there ever be a Necromancer class that uses such abilities? Doubtful. Why? Because the DK already handles the Scourge variety of Necromancy, which includes the NPCs you mention. You would have to find another undead faction in the game unaffiliated with the Scourge or the Lich King.

    As for the topic at hand, I don’t really plan on playing Shadowlands nor understand it’s storyline. But I think it would be pretty easy to explain that our dealings in the Shadowlands has caused a great upset in the balance between life and death, and there are now mass armies of undead beings and death cults swarming Azeroth. The stigma that necromancy is evil is now gone because of what we learned from the denizens of Shadowlands, and so the heroes of Azeroth embrace Necromancers in the fight against the undead, in addition to our newly acquired Shadowland allied races who now want to help us restore the balance in our world like we’ve done for them.
    Yeah, the idea that we move on from Shadowlands into WotLK 2.0 is unlikely. Especially when Sylvanas and the Lich King is playing such a major role in this expansion, and you consider we have an entire realm in Shadowlands dedicated to the Undead/Scourge already. Like I said, if you wanted to bring a Necromancer into the game, you do it in this expansion where the theme fits perfectly.

  2. #902
    lets see.
    Heigan is a warlock.
    Scourge necromancer is using warlock abilities.
    Feltotem necromancer is using fel magic.

    Master necromancer, this one might be a maybe but looks close DK blood spec since it deals with bones.
    Acherus necromancer, the one ability does fire damage but its a corpse explosion which i think falls under unholy.
    Necromancer conjurer, this one is the closest to a true necromancer. not sure why raise skeleton is nature.

    i didnt see alchemy. the nature magic doesnt make sense for some spells.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    so you have no proof. alright.
    Are you not capable of referring back to my first post or you read it and felt it wasn’t sufficient enough? Because you asked me to provide proof that Necromancers do X and I linked several Necromancers who do just that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Are there "Necromancer" NPCs that use those schools of magic, sure.

    Would there ever be a Necromancer class that uses such abilities? Doubtful. Why? Because the DK already handles the Scourge variety of Necromancy, which includes the NPCs you mention. You would have to find another undead faction in the game unaffiliated with the Scourge or the Lich King.
    Now now Teriz, there you famously go pushing goalposts again. You asked repeatedly for Necromancers using alchemy, poison, nature magic, and other schools of magic that DKs do not, and your only response when presented that evidence is, “well sure... but they’re still affiliated with DKs!”....as if that’s an actual problem.

    DKs rely on brute force for dispatching their enemies, Necromancers do not. This is why Alchemy & Poison are so fitting for Necromancers. It’s why we see them using it and it’s why we see them being taught how to use it in Scholomance.

    Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the Necromancers of the Maldraxus (some of whom I linked) are not affiliated with the Scourge/Lich King.

    Yeah, the idea that we move on from Shadowlands into WotLK 2.0 is unlikely. Especially when Sylvanas and the Lich King is playing such a major role in this expansion, and you consider we have an entire realm in Shadowlands dedicated to the Undead/Scourge already. Like I said, if you wanted to bring a Necromancer into the game, you do it in this expansion where the theme fits perfectly.
    I disagree. The Legion expansion is the most recent and popular expansion to date and heavily relied on TBC’s foe: Demons. TBC was a very popular expansion. What’s the other super popular expansion? WOLK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    lets see.
    Heigan is a warlock.
    Scourge necromancer is using warlock abilities.
    Feltotem necromancer is using fel magic.

    Master necromancer, this one might be a maybe but looks close DK blood spec since it deals with bones.
    Acherus necromancer, the one ability does fire damage but its a corpse explosion which i think falls under unholy.
    Necromancer conjurer, this one is the closest to a true necromancer. not sure why raise skeleton is nature.

    i didnt see alchemy. the nature magic doesnt make sense for some spells.
    Heigan is a Necromancer and a famous one at that, not a Warlock. You also completely ignored Krick the poison wielding, arcane exploding Necromancer. And wether or not the other Necromancers are using warlock spells is irrelevant. Teriz wanted to see Necromancers using other forms of magic. DKs don’t use fire magic or nature magic. Necromancers can and do.

  4. #904
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Now now Teriz, there you famously go pushing goalposts again. You asked repeatedly for Necromancers using alchemy, poison, nature magic, and other schools of magic that DKs do not, and your only response when presented that evidence is, “well sure... but they’re still affiliated with DKs!”....as if that’s an actual problem.
    Well it is a problem, because the DK class is the scourge class, and the Necromancer class.

    DKs rely on brute force for dispatching their enemies, Necromancers do not. This is why Alchemy & Poison are so fitting for Necromancers. It’s why we see them using it and it’s why we see them being taught how to use it in Scholomance.
    Nothing in lore states that a Necromancer can't use brute force.

    Also there's a next to zero chance that you'll see a "Necromancer" class utilizing a mad scientist concept. For starters, mad science really doesn't work with a Blood magic spec. You have to remember that a class tends to be multiple aspects of the same class. A mad scientist is using alchemy and science, and the idea that that that same character is also a blood magic user simply doesn't make much sense.

    Further, WoW classes tend to revolve around WC3 hero concepts, and the WC3 hero concept that utilized the mad scientist concept was a Goblin Alchemist. Guess what class concept that's more likely to go to....

    Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the Necromancers of the Maldraxus (some of whom I linked) are not affiliated with the Scourge/Lich King.
    No, but Maldraxxus is where the Lich King, and Scourge pull their undead armies from. So yeah, they are connected.

    I disagree. The Legion expansion is the most recent and popular expansion to date and heavily relied on TBC’s foe: Demons. TBC was a very popular expansion. What’s the other super popular expansion? WOLK.
    Yeah, but TBC wasn't the foretold Legion invasion, it was us going to the land where the Orcs had invaded from, and saw first hand the devastation the Legion could do to a world. In the expansions following TBC, the threat of a Legion invasion always loomed on the horizon, so there was still a story opening about the Legion finally invading Azeroth and the armies of both the Horde and the Alliance having to band together and stop it.

    We've already had the undead invasion story, and now we have the story of where the Undead and other aspects of death come from. Again, if the plan was to bring in a necromancer class, now would have been the time to do it.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-28 at 11:55 PM.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Are you not capable of referring back to my first post or you read it and felt it wasn’t sufficient enough? Because you asked me to provide proof that Necromancers do X and I linked several Necromancers who do just that.




    Now now Teriz, there you famously go pushing goalposts again. You asked repeatedly for Necromancers using alchemy, poison, nature magic, and other schools of magic that DKs do not, and your only response when presented that evidence is, “well sure... but they’re still affiliated with DKs!”....as if that’s an actual problem.

    DKs rely on brute force for dispatching their enemies, Necromancers do not. This is why Alchemy & Poison are so fitting for Necromancers. It’s why we see them using it and it’s why we see them being taught how to use it in Scholomance.

    Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the Necromancers of the Maldraxus (some of whom I linked) are not affiliated with the Scourge/Lich King.



    I disagree. The Legion expansion is the most recent and popular expansion to date and heavily relied on TBC’s foe: Demons. TBC was a very popular expansion. What’s the other super popular expansion? WOLK.

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    Heigan is a Necromancer and a famous one at that, not a Warlock. You also completely ignored Krick the poison wielding, arcane exploding Necromancer. And wether or not the other Necromancers are using warlock spells is irrelevant. Teriz wanted to see Necromancers using other forms of magic. DKs don’t use fire magic or nature magic. Necromancers can and do.
    krick was on the list?
    Heigan is labelled as Warlock. go check the page yourself.

    the only one i really agree on is the fire, which is very strange for a necromancer to use.

    i find is strange that Raise dead for Death knights is physical school but the NPC necromancers is listed as nature.
    Last edited by The Council; 2020-11-29 at 12:09 AM.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    And Demon Hunters are just Warlocks with Metamorphosis. Death Knights are just Warlocks with Death Coil.

    Silence (currently a Priest ability, not a Hunter one), Black Arrow (removed from the Hunter), Life Drain (Warlocks have Drain Life - like Sylvanas has Life Drain and Gul'dan has Drain Life in HoTS. sounds similar, operates similar, and yet, were still distinguished), Charm, Banshee's Curse (Saying it is unique to Sylvanas is like saying Gorefiend's Grasp is unique to Gorefiend, Illidan's Grasp is unique to Illidan, and Eye of Leotheras is unique to Leotheras. all of them were given to the Death Knight and Demon Hunter classes), Withering Fire, Shadow Dagger, Haunting Wave, Wailing Arrow, Mind Control (currently a Priest ability, not a Hunter one), Might of the Banshee Queen (see above: about uniqueness), Unfurling Shadows, Overwhelming Affliction, Unstable Poison, Mercenary Queen (see above: about uniqueness), Possession, Barbed Shot (Beast Mastery Hunter ability), Lost Soul, Festering Wounds (close in name to the Death Knight ability Festering Wound), Cold Embrace (a Warlock's Potency Conduit), Windrunner (see above: about uniqueness), Remorseless, Evasive Fire, Deafening Blast, Dark Lady's Call (see above: about uniqueness), Withering Barrage.

    So, the only abilities representing the Dark Ranger within the Hunter class would be the now removed Black Arrow, and the Beastmastery Hunter ability Barbed Shot (when a Dark Ranger would be more of a Marksmanship Hunter).

    A Dark Ranger Specialization, alongside a Priestess of the Moon and Sea Witch specializations, within a class. not a class on its own.

    And, if there's still not enough meat on the bones for you, as a specialization, they can draw more inspiration from Diablo 3's Demon Hunter class (Valla), as they are both feminine, hooded figures with red eyes, that use ranged weapons and dark powers:















    Multi-Shot (Hunter ability), Caltrops (removed Hunter Talent), Death Siphon (removed Death Knight Talent), Strafe (unavailable to players), Punishment (unavailable to players), Death Dealer (removed Death Knight ability), Gloom (unavailable to players), Frost Shot (unavailable to players), Rancor (unavailable to players), Impale (removed warrior talent), Rapid Fire (Hunter ability), Bola Shot (Removed hunter ability), Preparation (removed rogue ability), Shadow Power (removed shadow priest specialization bonus), Fan of Knives (rogue ability), Marked for Death (Rogue talent, hunter artifact trait, removed hunter talent), Thrill of the Hunt (hunter talent), Steady Aim (hunter azerite trait), Cull the Weak (removed demon hunter talent), Entangling Shot (unavailable to players), Chakram (close to the Hunter ability Chakrams), Companion (similar to the hunter's 'murder of crows' talent), Grenades (very close in appearance to a hunter's 'wildfire bomb'), Smoke Screen (very close to a Rogue's 'smoke bomb'), Vault (very close to a Demon Hunter's vengeful retreat), Spike Trap (unavailable to players), elemental arrow (unavailable to players), sentry (unavailable to players), Vengeance (unavailable to players), night stalker (very close in name to the rogue talent nightstalker), brooding (unavailable to players), rain of vengeance (similar to a hunter's 'volley' ability), cluster arrow (similar to a hunter's 'explosive shot' ability).

    Personally, i wouldn't want them to take Thrill of the Hunt, explosive shot or Chakram from the Hunter, Fan of Knives from the Warden, Smoke Bomb or Nightstalker from the Rogue, nor would i want the Dark Ranger to use Grenades and Turrets. i just wrote what the class has.
    Sylvanas, in the lore, is the ONLY character with the majority of the powers you listed. Dark Rangers do NOT have the same abilities. They are just hunters who can stealth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes. I would say a physical ranged class would be the best way to go. A class that actually competes with the Hunter.

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    I think we're beyond this point in this discussion. The discussion now is how can you implement a Necromancers class into WoW after you've had a prime opportunity in Shadowlands?

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    Actually according to lore Tinkers use claw packs. Something not found in the engineering profession. Also the claw pack pretty much confirms Goblin/Gnome only.

    A visual of the claw pack in case you don't know what it is;





    Art Credit: Arthur Lorenz:
    https://handclaw.artstation.com/albums/1137119

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    Those racials don't mean much if this is how their racial leader is depicted in a mech;
    ONE ability does not make tinkers 100% different from engineers. As usual, you grasp at straws.

  7. #907
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    ONE ability does not make tinkers 100% different from engineers. As usual, you grasp at straws.
    It isn't just the Claw Pack, it's also Pocket Factory, Cluster Rockets, Engineering Upgrade, Robo Goblin, Deth Lazor, Rock-it Turret, Salvager, Grav-O-Bomb 3000, X-Plodium Charge, Shock Baton, Cutting Beam, EZ-PZ Dimensional Ripper, Turbocharged, Healbot, etc.

    Toss in the Goblin Alchemist's abilities, and the Tinker's HotS talents and you got yourself the skeleton of a 3 spec WoW class without touching the profession.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-29 at 12:41 AM.

  8. #908
    sigh. now its back to tinkers.
    i tried to change the subject.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  9. #909
    Why not Dark Rangers AND Tinkers?

  10. #910
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    What color magic would Necromancers use? I was thinking pale blue/teal green

    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  11. #911
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Why not Dark Rangers AND Tinkers?
    Because it doesn't work as a cohesive class concept.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it is a problem, because the DK class is the scourge class, and the Necromancer class.
    Classes having similar themes is a problem only on to you. There's two holy based classes, two fel based, many shadow based, many elemental based, etc etc.

    Nothing in lore states that a Necromancer can't use brute force.
    And yet we see all famous and traditional based Necromancer labeled NPCs in WoW rely specifically on magic to deal damage.

    No, but Maldraxxus is where the Lich King, and Scourge pull their undead armies from. So yeah, they are connected.
    Obviously there's a connection. Maldraxxus is where necromancy originated. So connection? yes. Affiliation? No. They are not affiliated.

    Also there's a next to zero chance that you'll see a "Necromancer" class utilizing a mad scientist concept. For starters, mad science really doesn't work with a Blood magic spec. You have to remember that a class tends to be multiple aspects of the same class. A mad scientist is using alchemy and science, and the idea that that that same character is also a blood magic user simply doesn't make much sense.
    It's funny seeing you previously talk about 'connection', and yet you're incapable of recognizing the connection between Professor Putricide, the plague, and necromancy found within alchemy. The mad scientist theme is found within Scourge's forces. You yourself have tried to argue in the past that oozes, slimes, etc is already covered with DKs (even though it's not). You being unable to see how blood magic and alchemy can coincide is only an issue for you. Dark apothecaries literally use their blood to make their toxic potions.

    Yeah, but TBC wasn't the foretold Legion invasion, it was us going to the land where the Orcs had invaded from, and saw first hand the devastation the Legion could do to a world. In the expansions following TBC, the threat of a Legion invasion always loomed on the horizon, so there was still a story opening about the Legion finally invading Azeroth and the armies of both the Horde and the Alliance having to band together and stop it.
    We don't know what the consequences of us in Shadowlands will lead to. We do know that there's probably going to be a time jump after this expansion due to us being in the Shadowlands. We shall see.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    krick was on the list?
    Heigan is labelled as Warlock. go check the page yourself.

    the only one i really agree on is the fire, which is very strange for a necromancer to use.

    i find is strange that Raise dead for Death knights is physical school but the NPC necromancers is listed as nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    What color magic would Necromancers use? I was thinking pale blue/teal green
    Yes, Krick is on the list. Check him out.

    Heigan is only labeled a Warlock in Hearthstone because he uses demon summoning cards. In WoW, he's classified as a Necromancer, and obviously isn't summoning demons in game. However, there's nothing really stopping a Necromancer from becoming a Warlock and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    What color magic would Necromancers use? I was thinking pale blue/teal green
    That is the color death magic seems to have at the moment.
    Last edited by Amunrasonther; 2020-11-29 at 04:28 AM.

  13. #913
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, we have defined Tinker abilities. Warriors and Hunters do not possess any of those abilities.

    And again, we had established DK abilities even before Vanilla WoW, so we knew what to generally expect from a DK class. There's no foundation for this "Riftwhatever" concept beyond this one NPC.
    And neither does the warrior class possess any arcane or void abilities. Teriz, you're being incredibly dishonest if you argue that, to play as a void class, one should just play a "void elf warrior", but then in the same breath saying that being a gnome/goblin/mechagnome warrior or hunter doesn't make you a tinker.

    And the death knight being a WC3 unit is irrelevant, because the actual playable class plays nothing like the WC3 unit did. The death knight in WC3 was rather squishy, requiring you to sacrifice your minions to survive. The WoW death knight is an unrelenting tank.

    Engineering in of itself? Certainly. Did the Horde/Alliance champion find an old journal and learn how to build a Sky Golem from that journal? Not likely.
    Why not, if that is exactly how it happened?

    Also it stands to reason that the better the engineer, the better the end product. Like I'm sure that Mekkatorque builds more reliable tech than Findle Whistlesteam.
    Yeah, and guess what? The player character much more like "findle whistlesteam" than "mekkatorque".

    I'm sure you believe that....
    Ok. I'll bite: show me the post in which you provided clear lore difference between the engineering profession, the Goblin Tinker hero, Mekkatorque's Gnome tech and Blackfuse's Goblin tech.

    We're talking about general classes here. In general, no Warriors don't use magic. However Void Elves have Void Magic by default, so obviously a Void Elf Warrior is going to have void abilities on top of his/her warrior abilities.
    Ok. Then by that logic: "in general, hunters and warriors don't use technology. However gnomes, goblins and mechagnomes have technology by default, so obviously a gnome/goblin/mechagnome warrior or hunter is going to have technological abilities on top of their warrior or hunter abilities" therefore removing the need for a tech class. That is your logic.

    So we're just going to ignore the 2/3 of the Priest's ability set to try to prove a falsehood? Okay....
    At best, one half. And even that doesn't change the fact that both the priest and the paladin 100% share the exact same theme. It doesn't matter that priests also have shadow, because it doesn't matter to you that a hypothetical necromancer class could have a poison spec.

    Ah look, more semantics. Now you're trying to use "undead" instead of "Death" like Blizzard said.

    In the end, yes, Shadowlands is an expansion whose theme is death, and it takes place in the realm of death. The question NOW is that since Blizzard has established that classes must match the theme of the expansion, what upcoming expansion could possibly match the Necromancer's theme better than this one?
    But that's the whole thing: this is not an "undead" expansion, which would facilitate a necromancer class. An undeath expansion was the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, in which we fought the risen dead that threatened Azeroth. Here we are fighting in the afterlife, which has nothing to do with the necromancer other than a minimal, rather tangential connection through death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Haha, no problem! And you should absolutely incorporate them into your concept. They’re an unused mechanic that fits the Alchemical side of Necromancers perfectly.
    I'll keep in the backburner, for now. Still going through Shadowlands, but I must say that Maldraxxus as a whole, but more specifically, the House of Plagues, are giving me several ideas.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it is a problem, because the DK class is the scourge class, and the Necromancer class.
    Well this is only your problem that "There must be only one scourge baised class"?

    Its easy , just make Necromancer biased on Mogu who used some other kind of Anima for their Necromancy , then ask Rajani (why not) to create body-vessel's for souls from Shadowlands to posses.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Necromancer
    The magically gifted mogu race practice "spirit-capture magic",[18] allowing them to capture and bind willing or unwilling spirits in constructs,[19] bend them to their will,[20] and even summon spirits from beyond the grave.[21][22] These mogu casters can also access a realm called the "Spirit Void", which is very similar to the Realm of Shadows used by the Scourge.[23] While the schools of magic practiced by the mogu does not fall within the ordinary class categories,[18] the deathspeakers and possibly the spiritbinders can be referred to as necromancers.[24]

    The mogu appear to have abandoned this practice at some point before the reign of Emperor Shaohao, but have resumed it in recent times.[25]

    Some of the magic practiced by the mogu, like flesh-shaping and spirit-capture magic, seem to be based on magic or knowledge left behind by the Titans.[18]

  15. #915
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Obviously there's a connection. Maldraxxus is where necromancy originated. So connection? yes. Affiliation? No. They are not affiliated.
    Not to mention the Light is where both priests and paladins pull their spells, so.... :P
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  16. #916
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Classes having similar themes is a problem only on to you. There's two holy based classes, two fel based, many shadow based, many elemental based, etc etc.
    No, you have 1 holy class, and another class that uses Holy magic and Shadow magic equally.

    You have a fel-based class that is weapon based and hunts demons. You have another Fel based class that is a spell caster and has demonic minions.

    You have many shadow specs, but none of the classes a pure Shadow.

    Only Shaman are fully elemental (Fire, Water/Frost, Wind, Earth). Mages have Frost, Fire, and Arcane. Druids are Nature and Arcane.

    We have specs that have similar themes, not classes with similar themes.

    And yet we see all famous and traditional based Necromancer labeled NPCs in WoW rely specifically on magic to deal damage.
    Except Arthas and the Lich King.

    Obviously there's a connection. Maldraxxus is where necromancy originated. So connection? yes. Affiliation? No. They are not affiliated.
    Well that seems like a semantic juggle. If Maldraxxus is where the scourge is pulling their undead from, then there is an affiliation, because Maldraxxus obviously knows that the Scourge is using their undead for their forces.

    It's funny seeing you previously talk about 'connection', and yet you're incapable of recognizing the connection between Professor Putricide, the plague, and necromancy found within alchemy. The mad scientist theme is found within Scourge's forces. You yourself have tried to argue in the past that oozes, slimes, etc is already covered with DKs (even though it's not). You being unable to see how blood magic and alchemy can coincide is only an issue for you. Dark apothecaries literally use their blood to make their toxic potions.
    Is there a Necromancer in WoW using blood magic and alchemy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And neither does the warrior class possess any arcane or void abilities. Teriz, you're being incredibly dishonest if you argue that, to play as a void class, one should just play a "void elf warrior", but then in the same breath saying that being a gnome/goblin/mechagnome warrior or hunter doesn't make you a tinker.
    Except this Riftblade isn't a class. We don't know what it is. Again, it's more than likely just a racial divider within classes like Vidicator and Blood Knight for Paladins. And for some reason you keep ignoring the fact that Void Elf-based Warriors do possess Void magic. So yeah, Warriors don't possess Arcane or Void abilities, but Void Elf Warriors do.

    And no, being a Gnome/Goblin/Mechagnome whatever doesn't make you a Tinker. Every Gnome and Goblin is not a Tinker, so that comparison is nonsense. However EVERY Void Elf possesses Void powers. That is the difference.

    And the death knight being a WC3 unit is irrelevant, because the actual playable class plays nothing like the WC3 unit did. The death knight in WC3 was rather squishy, requiring you to sacrifice your minions to survive. The WoW death knight is an unrelenting tank.
    It's not irrelevant because the Death Knight class got every ability that the WC3 units had, signifying that that was its actual ability foundation, not the variety with Warrior and Warlock abilities. We don't have that for this Riftblade you're going on about.


    Why not, if that is exactly how it happened?
    Because the player's profession choice is never mentioned in lore. You're never referred to as [screen name] "Shaman Engineer" More than likely because it's optional for players.


    Yeah, and guess what? The player character much more like "findle whistlesteam" than "mekkatorque".
    Doubtful, since Findle is a profession engineer while Mekkatorque is a Tinker.


    Ok. I'll bite: show me the post in which you provided clear lore difference between the engineering profession, the Goblin Tinker hero, Mekkatorque's Gnome tech and Blackfuse's Goblin tech.
    I'm not digging that stuff up. I went over it thoroughly in this thread a few pages ago. It shouldn't be too hard to find.

    Ok. Then by that logic: "in general, hunters and warriors don't use technology. However gnomes, goblins and mechagnomes have technology by default, so obviously a gnome/goblin/mechagnome warrior or hunter is going to have technological abilities on top of their warrior or hunter abilities" therefore removing the need for a tech class. That is your logic.
    Yeah, that's quite a straw man. I never said that Void Elf warriors replace the need for any classes. I'm simply saying that a Void Elf Warrior possesses Void abilities, like all Void elves do.

    At best, one half. And even that doesn't change the fact that both the priest and the paladin 100% share the exact same theme. It doesn't matter that priests also have shadow, because it doesn't matter to you that a hypothetical necromancer class could have a poison spec.
    How can they share the same theme when Paladins reject Shadow magic completely, yet Priests embrace it? That makes no sense. Half of the Priest class is a polar opposite of the Paladin class.

    But that's the whole thing: this is not an "undead" expansion, which would facilitate a necromancer class. An undeath expansion was the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, in which we fought the risen dead that threatened Azeroth. Here we are fighting in the afterlife, which has nothing to do with the necromancer other than a minimal, rather tangential connection through death.
    Except Necromancers only partially deal with the undead. A good portion of their powers also deal with the balance of life and death, and manipulating those energies to enhance and sustain themselves and destroy their enemies. Curses, Blood Magic, Drain Life, Drain Soul, Life Tap, Deathbolt, Soul Stone, Magic-based Diseases, Decomposing Aura, Heartstop Aura, Life and Death, Soul Swap, etc. Are examples of such abilities.

    So yes, a Death expansion (which btw, also has entire sections dedicated to Undead elements and Vampiric elements) is the perfect fit for a class that revolves around life, death, the undead, and the afterlife. Yet to Blizzard, no class concept fits that theme.

    Fascinating.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-29 at 06:29 AM.

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Sylvanas, in the lore, is the ONLY character with the majority of the powers you listed. Dark Rangers do NOT have the same abilities. They are just hunters who can stealth.
    Almost every NPC in WoW can use Stealth. Prince Erazmin, for example, can use Stealth and he's not even a Rogue. Blizzard is just giving it out to NPCs, like free candy.

    As random Dark Rangers in Warcraft 3, Anya Eversong, Clea Deathstrider and Cyndia Hawkspear all possess the Dark Ranger abilities Sylvanas has in Warcraft 3, lore-wise: Silence, Black Arrow, Life Drain and Charm (not to mention: Nara Pathstrider, Anthis Sunbow, Mira Shadewither, Amora Eagleye, Siren Ghostsong and Somand Wayfinder, whom didn't make it into WoW yet.)

    In-game, Dark Ranger Clea uses Wailing Arrow (A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies. in Irish legend, a Banshee is a female spirit whose wailing warns of an impending death in a house.), Dark Ranger Kalira uses Black Arrow, Dark Ranger Alina uses Black Arrow and Wailing Arrow, Dark Ranger Velonara uses Black Arrow, Lenara uses Black Arrow, Dark Ranger Lyana uses Black Arrow, Veteran Dark Ranger uses Black Shot (probably Black Arrow).

    "Although referred only as a ranger, Nathanos Blightcaller has used the dark ranger abilities, such as Black Arrow and Psychic Scream. Before the Storm confirms him being a dark ranger." - Psychic Scream, in this instance, could be seen as a Banshee Scream (because he's no priest).

    Nathanos Blightcaller also uses Plague-Tipped Arrows and Shadowburn Shot, which are not part of the Hunter's repertoire. Saying it is unique to him will disregard the fact that Delaryn Summermoon, Dark Ranger Clea, Dark Ranger Thandel and Kaldorei Dark Ranger use Shadowburn Shot, while Dark Ranger Zanra uses Plague-Dipped Arrows.

    As for the other abilities i mentioned: Sylvanas, in Heroes of the Storm is an extension of the Dark Ranger hero of Warcraft 3, like Chen is an extension of the Pandaren Brewmaster Hero, Gazlowe is an extension of the Goblin Tinker Hero, Ragnaros is an extension of the Firelord Hero, Rexxar is an extension of the Beastmaster Hero, Thrall is an extension of the Farseer Hero, Brightwing is an extension of the Faerie Dragon unit, Malfurion is an extension of the Keeper of the Grove Hero, Rehgar is an extension of the Shaman unit, Tyrande is an extension of the Priestess of the Moon Hero, Uther is an extension of the Paladin Hero, Illidan is an extension of the Demon Hunter Hero, Maiev is an extension of the Warden Hero, Murky is an extension of Murloc creeps, Samuro is an extension of the Blademaster Hero, Falstad is an extension of the Gryphon Rider unit, Gul'dan is an extension of the Warlock Campaign Hero, Jaina is an extension of the Archmage Hero, Kael'thas is an extension of the Blood Mage Hero, Kel'thuzad is an extension of the Lich Hero, Lunara is an extension of the Dryad unit, Zul'jin is an extension of the Forest Troll Axethrower Creep of Warcraft 2, Medivh is an Extension of the Guardian of Tirisfal, Anu'barak is an extension of the Crypt Lord Hero, Arthas is an extension of the Death Knight Hero, E.T.C is a mockup of the Tauren Chieftain Hero, Mal'ganis is an extension of the Dreadlord Hero, Muradin is an extension of the Mountain King Hero, Stitches is an extension of the Abomination unit and Cho'gall is an extension of the Ogre-Mage creep of Warcraft 2.

    Saying her abilities will only be unique to her is like saying the other ones' abilities and talents will only be unique to them.
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-29 at 09:37 AM.

  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    You have a fel-based class that is weapon based and hunts demons. You have another Fel based class that is a spell caster and has demonic minions.
    You have a Necromancy class that is weapon based, has a tanking role, and uses runic magic, and you have another Necromancy class that is a spell caster, has a healing role, and uses nature magic.

    And that's just one variation. They could be given other attributes to differentiate them. I'm keen on Necromancers being an undead shapeshifter. Necromancers want to become undead. It's one of their major goals and why they want to become a Lich so badly. Once undead, the Lich can choose what they look like. This could lead to other undead forms.

    Except Arthas and the Lich King.
    The Lich King isn't a traditional Necromancer. He's foremost a Death Knight. Traditionally, Necromancers are frail light armored classes who deal their damage mostly with spell casting, and rely on armies of undead to keep their enemies at bay (because they're weak).

    Well that seems like a semantic juggle. If Maldraxxus is where the scourge is pulling their undead from, then there is an affiliation, because Maldraxxus obviously knows that the Scourge is using their undead for their forces.
    With everything I've seen, the Maldraxxus are not affiliated with the Scourge anymore than the Naaru are affiliated with Scarlet Crusade. Providing "weaponry" doesn't mean you're affiliated. And we don't know if it was willingly. Do we?

    Is there a Necromancer in WoW using blood magic and alchemy?
    Not to my knowledge...yet

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Almost every NPC in WoW can use Stealth. Prince Erazmin, for example, can use Stealth and he's not even a Rogue. Blizzard is just giving it out to NPCs, like free candy.

    As random Dark Rangers in Warcraft 3, Anya Eversong, Clea Deathstrider and Cyndia Hawkspear all possess the Dark Ranger abilities Sylvanas has in Warcraft 3, lore-wise: Silence, Black Arrow, Life Drain and Charm (not to mention: Nara Pathstrider, Anthis Sunbow, Mira Shadewither, Amora Eagleye, Siren Ghostsong and Somand Wayfinder, whom didn't make it into WoW yet.)

    In-game, Dark Ranger Clea uses Wailing Arrow (A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies. in Irish legend, a Banshee is a female spirit whose wailing warns of an impending death in a house.), Dark Ranger Kalira uses Black Arrow, Dark Ranger Alina uses Black Arrow and Wailing Arrow, Dark Ranger Velonara uses Black Arrow, Lenara uses Black Arrow, Dark Ranger Lyana uses Black Arrow, Veteran Dark Ranger uses Black Shot (probably Black Arrow).

    "Although referred only as a ranger, Nathanos Blightcaller has used the dark ranger abilities, such as Black Arrow and Psychic Scream. Before the Storm confirms him being a dark ranger." - Psychic Scream, in this instance, could be seen as a Banshee Scream (because he's no priest).

    Nathanos Blightcaller also uses Plague-Tipped Arrows and Shadowburn Shot, which are not part of the Hunter's repertoire. Saying it is unique to him will disregard the fact that Delaryn Summermoon, Dark Ranger Clea, Dark Ranger Thandel and Kaldorei Dark Ranger use Shadowburn Shot, while Dark Ranger Zanra uses Plague-Dipped Arrows.

    As for the other abilities i mentioned: Sylvanas, in Heroes of the Storm is an extension of the Dark Ranger hero of Warcraft 3, like Chen is an extension of the Pandaren Brewmaster Hero, Gazlowe is an extension of the Goblin Tinker Hero, Ragnaros is an extension of the Firelord Hero, Rexxar is an extension of the Beastmaster Hero, Thrall is an extension of the Farseer Hero, Brightwing is an extension of the Faerie Dragon unit, Malfurion is an extension of the Keeper of the Grove Hero, Rehgar is an extension of the Shaman unit, Tyrande is an extension of the Priestess of the Moon Hero, Uther is an extension of the Paladin Hero, Illidan is an extension of the Demon Hunter Hero, Maiev is an extension of the Warden Hero, Murky is an extension of Murloc creeps, Samuro is an extension of the Blademaster Hero, Falstad is an extension of the Gryphon Rider unit, Gul'dan is an extension of the Warlock Campaign Hero, Jaina is an extension of the Archmage Hero, Kael'thas is an extension of the Blood Mage Hero, Kel'thuzad is an extension of the Lich Hero, Lunara is an extension of the Dryad unit, Zul'jin is an extension of the Forest Troll Axethrower Creep of Warcraft 2, Medivh is an Extension of the Guardian of Tirisfal, Anu'barak is an extension of the Crypt Lord Hero, Arthas is an extension of the Death Knight Hero, E.T.C is a mockup of the Tauren Chieftain Hero, Mal'ganis is an extension of the Dreadlord Hero, Muradin is an extension of the Mountain King Hero, Stitches is an extension of the Abomination unit and Cho'gall is an extension of the Ogre-Mage creep of Warcraft 2.

    Saying her abilities will only be unique to her is like saying the other ones' abilities and talents will only be unique to them.
    I just really can't see dark ranger being a class in WoW. There isn't a whole lot about them that separates them from hunters. Black Arrow was for a long time a hunter spell. I have no idea why they removed it. But when it comes to dark rangers, they are mostly just edgy hunters. From a lore standpoint, Sylvanas is unique with her abilities. Dark Rangers aren't banshees like Sylvanas. It would be incredibly redundant to add them as a class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It isn't just the Claw Pack, it's also Pocket Factory, Cluster Rockets, Engineering Upgrade, Robo Goblin, Deth Lazor, Rock-it Turret, Salvager, Grav-O-Bomb 3000, X-Plodium Charge, Shock Baton, Cutting Beam, EZ-PZ Dimensional Ripper, Turbocharged, Healbot, etc.

    Toss in the Goblin Alchemist's abilities, and the Tinker's HotS talents and you got yourself the skeleton of a 3 spec WoW class without touching the profession.
    I swear on the heavens, stop using pocket factory as an example. It is literally the ONLY ability they have that isn't done by engineering either 100% or at the very least to some degree.

    Also, using the HotS hero as a point it irrelevant because he's not even called a tinker in HotS. As I said, you're grasping at straws.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No, you have 1 holy class, and another class that uses Holy magic and Shadow magic equally.

    You have a fel-based class that is weapon based and hunts demons. You have another Fel based class that is a spell caster and has demonic minions.

    You have many shadow specs, but none of the classes a pure Shadow.

    Only Shaman are fully elemental (Fire, Water/Frost, Wind, Earth). Mages have Frost, Fire, and Arcane. Druids are Nature and Arcane.

    We have specs that have similar themes, not classes with similar themes.



    Except Arthas and the Lich King.



    Well that seems like a semantic juggle. If Maldraxxus is where the scourge is pulling their undead from, then there is an affiliation, because Maldraxxus obviously knows that the Scourge is using their undead for their forces.



    Is there a Necromancer in WoW using blood magic and alchemy?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Except this Riftblade isn't a class. We don't know what it is. Again, it's more than likely just a racial divider within classes like Vidicator and Blood Knight for Paladins. And for some reason you keep ignoring the fact that Void Elf-based Warriors do possess Void magic. So yeah, Warriors don't possess Arcane or Void abilities, but Void Elf Warriors do.

    And no, being a Gnome/Goblin/Mechagnome whatever doesn't make you a Tinker. Every Gnome and Goblin is not a Tinker, so that comparison is nonsense. However EVERY Void Elf possesses Void powers. That is the difference.



    It's not irrelevant because the Death Knight class got every ability that the WC3 units had, signifying that that was its actual ability foundation, not the variety with Warrior and Warlock abilities. We don't have that for this Riftblade you're going on about.




    Because the player's profession choice is never mentioned in lore. You're never referred to as [screen name] "Shaman Engineer" More than likely because it's optional for players.




    Doubtful, since Findle is a profession engineer while Mekkatorque is a Tinker.




    I'm not digging that stuff up. I went over it thoroughly in this thread a few pages ago. It shouldn't be too hard to find.



    Yeah, that's quite a straw man. I never said that Void Elf warriors replace the need for any classes. I'm simply saying that a Void Elf Warrior possesses Void abilities, like all Void elves do.



    How can they share the same theme when Paladins reject Shadow magic completely, yet Priests embrace it? That makes no sense. Half of the Priest class is a polar opposite of the Paladin class.



    Except Necromancers only partially deal with the undead. A good portion of their powers also deal with the balance of life and death, and manipulating those energies to enhance and sustain themselves and destroy their enemies. Curses, Blood Magic, Drain Life, Drain Soul, Life Tap, Deathbolt, Soul Stone, Magic-based Diseases, Decomposing Aura, Heartstop Aura, Life and Death, Soul Swap, etc. Are examples of such abilities.

    So yes, a Death expansion (which btw, also has entire sections dedicated to Undead elements and Vampiric elements) is the perfect fit for a class that revolves around life, death, the undead, and the afterlife. Yet to Blizzard, no class concept fits that theme.

    Fascinating.
    lmao wow. There is nothing separating Findle and Mekkatorque aside from the latter being a major lore NPC. Saying Findle is simply an engineer and Mekkatorque is a tinker despite doing pretty much all the same shit is asinine. You just refuse to admit you're wrong so you talk in circles. Tinker is literally nothing more than a title in the same vein as Artificer.

  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    You have a Necromancy class that is weapon based, has a tanking role, and uses runic magic, and you have another Necromancy class that is a spell caster, has a healing role, and uses nature magic.
    You're splitting too many hairs and ignoring everything else. Yes, the DK is weapon based, but it also has a lot of non-weapon based spells. Those spells do in fact coincide with what a Necromancer tends to do in fantasy games; Raise the undead, Spread blight/disease, and use a variety of Shadow Magic. In the case of Warcraft, there's also the Lich which is an ascended type of Necromancer and they use Frost magic. The DK has those powers as well.

    As for your Necromancer concept, the DK is already a spell caster. Saying that the DK uses Runic magic is irrelevant because according to Blizzard it's still necromancy. You guys giving this Necromancer a healing role is rather irrelevant because it's simply a variation of the DK's tanking spec which uses the exact same magic school. Your concept of Nature magic is merely a variation of the DK's disease concept. Again, Blizzard has no hang ups about the concept of melee Necromancers. Xul in HotS and the Necromancer in Diablo 3 (which is partially based on the Death Knight) confirm this. So while YOU may have problems with this, that doesn't mean that Blizzard shares your view.

    The Lich King isn't a traditional Necromancer. He's foremost a Death Knight. Traditionally, Necromancers are frail light armored classes who deal their damage mostly with spell casting, and rely on armies of undead to keep their enemies at bay (because they're weak).
    That is entirely your opinion. You do understand that right?

    With everything I've seen, the Maldraxxus are not affiliated with the Scourge anymore than the Naaru are affiliated with Scarlet Crusade. Providing "weaponry" doesn't mean you're affiliated. And we don't know if it was willingly. Do we?
    I would agree with you if the Naaru were provided scores of Lightforged Draenei for the Scarlet Crusade's army. That's exactly what Maldraxxus was doing for the Lich King and the Scourge.

    Not to my knowledge...yet
    Okay, just checking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I swear on the heavens, stop using pocket factory as an example. It is literally the ONLY ability they have that isn't done by engineering either 100% or at the very least to some degree.

    Also, using the HotS hero as a point it irrelevant because he's not even called a tinker in HotS. As I said, you're grasping at straws.
    Where's the Claw Pack, Gravity Bomb, Upgradable Turret, Laser Beam that also heals you, the scrap that reduces your cool downs, etc.?

    Uh, you do realize that Gazlowe was also the Tinker hero from WC3 right? Also Gazlowe in HotS has stuff like the Claw Pack and Robo Goblin from WC3 so obviously Gazlowe in HotS is also a Tinker.

    lmao wow. There is nothing separating Findle and Mekkatorque aside from the latter being a major lore NPC. Saying Findle is simply an engineer and Mekkatorque is a tinker despite doing pretty much all the same shit is asinine. You just refuse to admit you're wrong so you talk in circles. Tinker is literally nothing more than a title in the same vein as Artificer.
    So the fact that Mekkatorque builds vastly superior technology means nothing? So is there no difference between Jaina Proudmoore and Jessera Cordell, an Enchanting Training?

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