1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    WoW classes and the source of their WC3 abilities:

    Death Knight: DK, Lich, Dreadlord, Necromancer, Crypt lord, Banshee, Gargoyle
    Demon Hunter: Demon Hunter
    Druid: Keeper of the Grove, Druid of the Claw, Druid of the Talon, PotM, Crypt Lord
    Hunter: Rexxar, PotM, Dark Ranger, Archer, Huntress, Sea Witch
    Mage: Archmage, Bloodmage, Sorceress, Lich, Sea Witch, Warden
    Monk: Brewmaster
    Paladin: Paladin
    Priest: Priest, Demon Hunter
    Rogue: Warden, Demon Hunter, Blademaster, Rogue (creep), Assassin (creep)
    Shaman: Far Seer, Spirit Walker, Orc Shaman, Troll Witch Doctor, Shadow Hunter, Tauren Chieftain
    Warlock: Pit Lord, Blood Mage, Dreadlord, Demon Hunter, Fire Lord, Warlock (Creep)
    Warrior: Blademaster, Mountain King, Tauren Chieftain, Footman,

    I'm sure I'm missing some stuff. That said, the Tinker and the Alchemist remain the only two WC3 heroes not on this list.
    Death Knight: Unholy Blight supposed to be Locust Swarm? Gargoyle supposed to be Summon Gargoyle?
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Death Knight.
    Demon Hunter: Archimonde's Rain of Chaos ability was given to the Demon Hunter.
    Druid: Insect Swarm supposed to be Locust Swarm?
    The Tauren Warrior's Pulverize ability was given to the Druid.
    The Mountain King's Bash, somewhat, became a Druid ability.
    Hunter: Archer's hide is the Night elven Shadowmeld, Elune's Grace was a Night elf priest racial ability and mount hippogryph is not a class ability.
    Naga sea witch's Frost Arrows supposed to be Exotic Munitions?
    Mage: you forgot Blademaster's Mirror Image and Spellbreaker's Spell Steal.
    The Dreadlord's Sleep ability was, originally, meant to be a Mage ability (but, was replaced with Polymorph).
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Mage.
    Paladin: also, there is the Warcraft 2 Paladin's Exorcism ability.
    Priest: you forgot Spellbreaker's Feedback ability and the Dark Ranger Silence ability.
    Warcraft 2 Death Knight's Touch of Darkness became a shadow priest artifact trait.
    Rogue: which Blademaster ability was given to the Rogue? Critical Strike?
    The Rogue and Assassin Creeps' ability Hide is actually Shadowmeld (but, i can see the inspiration).
    The Assassin creep Envenomed Weapon is not a Rogue ability (but i can see the inspiration).
    Shaman: shamans don't use any of the Witch Doctor's ward abilities (but, i can see the inspiration).
    Warcraft 1 Conjurer's Elemental Blast was given to the Shaman.
    Warlock: Stormreaver Warlock's Animate Dead and Monsoon are not Warlock abilities.
    Eredar Warlock's Finger of Pain, Mana Shield and Bash are not Warlock abilities.
    The Necromancer's Cripple was given to the Doomguard pet.
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Ogre-Mage's Eye of Kilrogg ability.
    Warrior: Footman's Defend ability is not a Warrior ability (but, i can see the inspiration).
    Warcraft 2 Death Knight's Whirlwind became a warrior ability.
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-30 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #1002
    Dark ranger.

  3. #1003
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Death Knight: Unholy Blight supposed to be Locust Swarm? Gargoyle supposed to be Summon Gargoyle?
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Death Knight.
    Demon Hunter: Archimonde's Rain of Chaos ability was given to the Demon Hunter.
    Druid: Insect Swarm supposed to be Locust Swarm?
    The Tauren Warrior's Pulverize ability was given to the Druid.
    Hunter: Archer's hide is the Night elven Shadowmeld, Elune's Grace was a Night elf priest racial ability and mount hippogryph is not a class ability.
    Naga sea witch's Frost Arrows supposed to be Exotic Munitions?
    Mage: you forgot Blademaster's Mirror Image and Spellbreaker's Spell Steal.
    The Dreadlord's Sleep ability was, originally, meant to be a Mage ability (but, was replaced with Polymorph).
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Mage.
    Paladin: also, there is the Warcraft 2 Paladin's Exorcism ability.
    Priest: you forgot Spellbreaker's Feedback ability and the Dark Ranger Silence ability.
    Warcraft 2 Death Knight's Touch of Darkness became a shadow priest artifact trait.
    Rogue: which Blademaster ability was given to the Rogue? Critical Strike?
    The Rogue and Assassin Creeps' ability Hide is actually Shadowmeld (but, i can see the inspiration).
    The Assassin creep Envenomed Weapon is not a Rogue ability (but i can see the inspiration).
    Shaman: shamans don't use any of the Witch Doctor's ward abilities (but, i can see the inspiration).
    Warcraft 1 Conjurer's Elemental Blast was given to the Shaman.
    Warlock: Stormreaver Warlock's Animate Dead and Monsoon are not Warlock abilities.
    Eredar Warlock's Finger of Pain, Mana Shield and Bash are not Warlock abilities.
    The Necromancer's Cripple was given to the Doomguard pet.
    Also, there is the Warcraft 2 Ogre-Mage's Eye of Kilrogg ability.
    Warrior: Footman's Defend ability is not a Warrior ability (but, i can see the inspiration).
    Warcraft 2 Death Knight's Whirlwind became a warrior ability.
    Thanks for the clarification. And yeah, Locust Swarm was turned into insect swarm for Druids, while Unholy Blight behaved like the WC3 ability.

    Wind Walk is the ancestor of Stealth. Even coming out of stealth and dealing high damage come from it.

  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Tinker class is the one concept that wouldn't be a cheap copy of other classes, yet you find it a "boring non-fantasy concept" that shouldn't be implemented.

    Yeah, that makes sense....
    It won’t because it has to be one otherwise great Blizzard math people can’t balance this game. So no.

  5. #1005
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It exists in reality as well, since there is facts and evidence to back it up.
    Do you know the difference between a "trend" and a "rule"?

    Not really.
    Yes, really. Because, if your arbitrary rule is true, any and all concepts that Blizzard comes up with but has no corresponding unit and/or ability in Warcraft 3, it means such a class would never get into WoW, regardless of how "awesome" it is or how well it fits within the franchise's lore. Again, it's needlessly restrictive.

    Again, no we don't. If Blizzard has done that in every single case with no deviation, then it's OBVIOUS that that's what they're doing.
    That's not how it works, Teriz. You're making a claim of fact in which we have no way to confirm unless Blizzard outright comes out and says so. You're implying causation when all you have is a correlation. And, as any honest person knows and is willing to admit it, correlation does not imply causation.

    Well, if you want to believe that Blizzard is working on a Riftrunner class, you're free to believe that delusion.
    "Delusion" is this complete strawman, considering I never said that "Blizzard is working on a Riftrunner class". This is once again another example of you being dishonest as you try to obfuscate.

    And the lore states that the champion went through Drustvar and eliminated the threat and that was partially what led to Kul'tiras rejoining the alliance in the 4th war. So yeah, it's canon. The champion being an amateur engineer who builds unreliable junk for some coin is not.
    It still doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to speak for Blizzard by de-canonize parts of the game and lore that do not agree with your narrative.

    Yeah, and Captain America also had superpowers which allowed him to develop skills and abilities far beyond the common soldier. He also trained with those new abilities and powers in ways that common soldiers could not.
    And the two still went through the same training.

    These semantics are getting silly. Again, A Pirate, an Assassin, and a Thief all fit under the Rogue label thematically. That's the point.
    You're the one playing semantics. Because the "assassin" theme that Blizzard used for the rogue is of the skulking rogue who stays in the shadows and ambushes their enemies when they least suspect it. And yet you use the generic term "assassin" which is basically the synonym for "murderer" when you described the pirate, a term that applies to ALL classes in the game.

    Then why do they both use death magic?
    They don't. They use necromancy. "Death magic" requires anima, which we don't have access to:
    "Anima is the source that is drawn upon when using death magic. It is comparable to mana."

    Well again, Blizzard is 12 for 12.
    Congratulations, you have a trend. Nothing more, nothing less. But proved as a rule? Not at all. And, again, it doesn't change the fact that this is you speaking for Blizzard. Or trying to, at least.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  6. #1006
    there will never be perfect balance.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  7. #1007
    Stood in the Fire Felmourn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Wyrmrest Accord-US / Bigglesworth-US
    Posts
    391
    Always and forever Bard.
    If you take the wings off of a fly, is it a walk?

  8. #1008
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Do you know the difference between a "trend" and a "rule"?
    Yes, really. Because, if your arbitrary rule is true, any and all concepts that Blizzard comes up with but has no corresponding unit and/or ability in Warcraft 3, it means such a class would never get into WoW, regardless of how "awesome" it is or how well it fits within the franchise's lore. Again, it's needlessly restrictive.
    Which is your opinion. Given what we've seen of the WoW class lineup, they don't agree with your opinion, since every WoW class relates to WC3 heroes in varying ways.

    That's not how it works, Teriz. You're making a claim of fact in which we have no way to confirm unless Blizzard outright comes out and says so. You're implying causation when all you have is a correlation. And, as any honest person knows and is willing to admit it, correlation does not imply causation.
    Again, EVERY WoW class having this same quality confirms it. And we've already seen how you react to Blizzard confirming something, so please stop pretending that you would accept this even if they confirmed it.

    "Delusion" is this complete strawman, considering I never said that "Blizzard is working on a Riftrunner class". This is once again another example of you being dishonest as you try to obfuscate.
    So what have you been arguing about for the last several pages?

    It still doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to speak for Blizzard by de-canonize parts of the game and lore that do not agree with your narrative.
    If you're talking about professions, I don't need to de-canonize what isn't canon in the first place.


    And the two still went through the same training.
    You mean the training where they were taught to throw a shield and have it bounce back to them?

    You're the one playing semantics. Because the "assassin" theme that Blizzard used for the rogue is of the skulking rogue who stays in the shadows and ambushes their enemies when they least suspect it. And yet you use the generic term "assassin" which is basically the synonym for "murderer" when you described the pirate, a term that applies to ALL classes in the game.
    Looks like this went over your head. Again, an Assassin, a Pirate, and a Thief all works perfectly well within a Rogue thematic, because they're all Rogues.

    They don't. They use necromancy. "Death magic" requires anima, which we don't have access to:
    "Anima is the source that is drawn upon when using death magic. It is comparable to mana."
    You just pull stuff out of your butt don't you?

    Death is a cosmic force that holds sway over every living thing in the Great Dark Beyond. Acting as a counterbalance to life, it is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything towards a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. It manifests in the form of necromantic magic and is represented by the Shadowlands, the realm of the dead.[2]
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death

    Necromancers are practitioners of necromancy (also called the dark arts[2][3] or the black arts)[4] the study and use of magic to raise and control the dead.[5] Necromantic magic (or death magic) has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases, harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy, and chill the living with the power of death.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Necromancer

    Oh, who else uses Necromantic magic?

    While all Death Knights have some ability to control and reanimate undead minions, an Unholy Death Knight has chosen to specialize necromantic magic, and their abilities should reflect that.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ne...-class-updates


    But don't worry, despite the fact that Blizzard has contradicted your arguments yet again, you'll continue to ignore it and continue arguing semantics.

  9. #1009
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which is your opinion.
    No. That is a fact. It really is needlessly restrictive to confine their creative pool to only Warcraft 3. And what is also a fact is that the only reason you consistently insist on this is because it seemingly gives your beloved fan concept a leg up.

    Again, EVERY WoW class having this same quality confirms it.
    All you have so far with your claims is a correlation. If you want to establish causation, then you need Blizzard's unambiguous word on it.

    So what have you been arguing about for the last several pages?
    It's not my fault you either accidentally or intentionally misrepresented your arguments. If it was intentional, it shows how dishonest you are. If it was accidental, then it shows how you don't bother to understand what the other person is arguing for. Which is also dishonest.

    If you're talking about professions, I don't need to de-canonize what isn't canon in the first place.
    Then prove that professions are not canon. Come on, I'm waiting for the Blizzard statement saying the in-game professions are not canon.

    You mean the training where they were taught to throw a shield and have it bounce back to them?
    Where is that ability in the warrior repertoire? Are you once again moving goalposts by talking about the paladin all of a sudden?

    Looks like this went over your head. Again, an Assassin, a Pirate, and a Thief all works perfectly well within a Rogue thematic, because they're all Rogues.
    Doesn't change the fact that the three are wildly different thematics, and "rogue" is a nebulous term.

    You just pull stuff out of your butt don't you?
    Okay. You're denying canon lore, again. It's funny, though, to hear you accuse me of "pulling stuff out of my ass" when you're sitting there trying to de-canonize parts of the game that go against your narrative.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  10. #1010
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. That is a fact. It really is needlessly restrictive to confine their creative pool to only Warcraft 3. And what is also a fact is that the only reason you consistently insist on this is because it seemingly gives your beloved fan concept a leg up.

    All you have so far with your claims is a correlation. If you want to establish causation, then you need Blizzard's unambiguous word on it.
    Or we could just use common sense. Obviously there are clear advantages towards basing your classes on popular Warcraft lore characters than random classes that don't have that connection. And no, the reason I insist on this is because there's evidence backing it up, and it makes sense why they would go this route instead of doing something ridiculous like "Riftrunners".

    And yes, saying that this practice is "needlessly restrictive" is your opinion.

    Then prove that professions are not canon. Come on, I'm waiting for the Blizzard statement saying the in-game professions are not canon.
    Again, you're never called by your profession in general questing. You can pick up and drop professions consistently. You can be multiple professions at once, and you don't need to do professions to complete content. Compare that to a class where your class is constantly mentioned in general questing, you're unable to pick up and drop classes at will, and if you delete your class you delete your entire character.

    Okay. You're denying canon lore, again. It's funny, though, to hear you accuse me of "pulling stuff out of my ass" when you're sitting there trying to de-canonize parts of the game that go against your narrative.
    And you're deflecting because Blizzard blew apart your argument for a second time.

  11. #1011
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Or we could just use common sense.
    Common sense dictates all you have is a correlation and zero evidence for causation.

    Obviously there are clear advantages towards basing your classes on popular Warcraft lore characters than random classes that don't have that connection.
    No. That is not "common sense". Because the average WoW player doesn't care about Warcraft 3 characters.

    And no, the reason I insist on this is because there's evidence backing it up and it makes sense why they would go this route instead of doing something ridiculous like "Riftrunners".
    No, there is zero evidence for your claim, considering you're claiming it's a fact that new classes REQUIRE a Warcraft 3 hero unit to be based from.

    And yes, saying that this practice is "needlessly restrictive" is your opinion.
    No, that is an actual fact.

    Again, you're never called by your profession in general questing.
    Again, this is just you moving goalposts, AND trying to de-canonize parts of the game that don't agree with you.

    And you're deflecting because Blizzard blew apart your argument for a second time.
    Says the guy who literally ignored canon information, which I'll repeat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They don't. They use necromancy. "Death magic" requires anima, which we don't have access to:
    "Anima is the source that is drawn upon when using death magic. It is comparable to mana."
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're splitting too many hairs and ignoring everything else. Yes, the DK is weapon based, but it also has a lot of non-weapon based spells. Those spells do in fact coincide with what a Necromancer tends to do in fantasy games; Raise the undead, Spread blight/disease, and use a variety of Shadow Magic. In the case of Warcraft, there's also the Lich which is an ascended type of Necromancer and they use Frost magic. The DK has those powers as well.
    Eh....not really. Does a Demon Hunter not also have a lot of non-weapon based spells too? Same goes for Ret/Prot Paladins. They're all 'magical' classes, and even though they're melee, most of their abilities are magical in nature. The spells you say coincide with what a Necromancer does in game is simply a part of what necromancy does - which is no different from the Light which heals, resurrects, protects, buffs, and smites, and Chaos magic which.....burns.

    As for your Necromancer concept, the DK is already a spell caster.
    All 3 specs of the DK class are regarded as melee specs. DKs are not spell casters akin to Mages, Priests, Warlocks in any sense of the word.

    You guys giving this Necromancer a healing role is rather irrelevant because it's simply a variation of the DK's tanking spec which uses the exact same magic school.
    It's still roles, themes, and specializations that could differentiate them. A healing specialization doesn't make sense and can no longer work in a DK class, while it can in a Necromancer class.

    Your concept of Nature magic is merely a variation of the DK's disease concept. Again, Blizzard has no hang ups about the concept of melee Necromancers. Xul in HotS and the Necromancer in Diablo 3 (which is partially based on the Death Knight) confirm this. So while YOU may have problems with this, that doesn't mean that Blizzard shares your view.
    Alchemy/Nature magic are themes not found in the DK class, and just about every spec could be seen as a variation of others.

    That is entirely your opinion. You do understand that right?
    You think it's my opinion that the Necromancer concept and theme is traditionally a light-armored spell caster? Just about every MMO/RPG/D&D/Movie etc would disagree with you. You mention other "Necromancers" from other Blizzard games, but in World of Warcraft, a Necromancer is a light armored spell caster that primarily deals damage through magical ranged attacks through necromancy, while a heavy armored class that uses melee attacks and incorporates necromancy is called a Death Knight. It's a distinction that is missing from WoW.

  13. #1013
    There are three classes that I see as possible at the moment:

    - Necromancer / Plague Doctor or something like that: all the animations are there, Maldraxxus is proof for that

    - Tinker: basically all Azerite-related animations from BfA can be reused as Tinker assets; the question is if Azerite will ever matter again and Tinker makes sense in that way

    - Blood Mage or something like that: see Necromancer. Revendreth is full of animations that could be used by a class
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again
    Vote #Jaina!
    #Proudmoore4AllianceLeader
    #ImwithHer2020

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. And yeah, Locust Swarm was turned into insect swarm for Druids, while Unholy Blight behaved like the WC3 ability.

    Wind Walk is the ancestor of Stealth. Even coming out of stealth and dealing high damage come from it.
    Can't say that for sure. after all, every insectoid swarm ability will resemble the Locust Swarm ability.

    Wind Walk
    Allows the Blademaster to become invisible, and move faster for a set amount of time. When the Blademaster attacks a unit to break invisibility, he will deal bonus damage.

    Stealth
    Level 5 rogue ability
    2 sec cooldown
    Instant
    Conceals you in the shadows until cancelled, allowing you to stalk enemies without being seen.

    By the name, it sounds like a Windwalker Monk ability. by the description, it sounds like the Mage's invisibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Looks like this went over your head. Again, an Assassin, a Pirate, and a Thief all works perfectly well within a Rogue thematic, because they're all Rogues.
    Rogue: a dishonest or unprincipled man.
    Synonyms: scoundrel, villain, reprobate, rascal, good-for-nothing, wretch, picaro, cad, ne'er-do-well, rat, bastard, son of a bitch, SOB, nasty piece of work, dog, cur, louse, crook, scrote, blighter, spalpeen, slicker, scamp, hound, vagabon, drotter, bounder, miscreant, blackguard, dastard, knave, varlet, wastrel, mountebank, picaroon, scamp, rascal, imp, devil, monkey, mischief-maker,
    scallywag, monster, horror, terror, holy terror, perisher, tyke, scally, hellion, varmint,
    scapegrace, rapscallion.

    Assassin: a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.
    Synonyms: homicide, murderer, killer, executioner, gunman, butcher, slaughterer, liquidator, exterminator, terminator, hitman, contract man, hired gun, button man, slayer.

    Pirate: a person who attacks and robs ships at sea.
    Synonyms: corsair, rover, sea rover, picaroon, filibuster, sea thief, sea robber, water thief, sea wolf, sea rat, water rat, marooner, buccaneer, privateer, freebooter, marauder, raider.

    Ninja: a person skilled in the Japanese art of ninjutsu.
    Ninjutsu: the traditional Japanese art of stealth, camouflage, and sabotage, developed in feudal times for espionage and now practiced as a martial art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    There are three classes that I see as possible at the moment:

    - Necromancer / Plague Doctor or something like that: all the animations are there, Maldraxxus is proof for that

    - Tinker: basically all Azerite-related animations from BfA can be reused as Tinker assets; the question is if Azerite will ever matter again and Tinker makes sense in that way

    - Blood Mage or something like that: see Necromancer. Revendreth is full of animations that could be used by a class
    Blood Mages are, actually, not blood-users, but fire-users:
    "Mystical heroes, blood mages (a.k.a. bloodmages, sometimes blood magi or bloodmagi are blood elves adept at controlling magic and ranged assault. While they were still members of the Alliance, the blood elves began to turn to the darkest parts of magic, abandoning the water and frost spells of the Kirin Tor for the fire and heat of what some people fear to be demonic magic."
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-12-01 at 04:44 PM.

  15. #1015
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Common sense dictates all you have is a correlation and zero evidence for causation.
    So we need Blizzard to come out and tell us WHY they're doing it for us to recognize that they are doing it?

    That makes zero sense.

    No. That is not "common sense". Because the average WoW player doesn't care about Warcraft 3 characters.
    Really? Did you take a poll of the average WoW player to reach this conclusion, or are you just giving your opinion and trying to pass it off as a fact again?

    No, there is zero evidence for your claim, considering you're claiming it's a fact that new classes REQUIRE a Warcraft 3 hero unit to be based from.
    Every new expansion class has been based on a WC3 hero. That's called evidence, and it points to the likelihood that the next expansion class is also going to be based on a WC3 hero.

    No, that is an actual fact.
    No, that's complete opinion.

    Again, this is just you moving goalposts, AND trying to de-canonize parts of the game that don't agree with you.
    Yeah, the goalposts were never moved. You attempted to argue that Drustvar was just as optional as professions and got stomped, and now we're back to you deflecting again.


    Says the guy who literally ignored canon information, which I'll repeat:
    Except your own source states that Necromancy is death magic, and Blizzard states that Death Knights use Necromancy, which again is death magic. Oh and your own source also reaffirms that Shadowlands is the realm of death from which Necromancy draws its powers.

    Oops.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-12-01 at 12:17 PM.

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So we need Blizzard to come out and tell us WHY they're doing it for us to recognize that they are doing it?

    That makes zero sense.



    Really? Did you take a poll of the average WoW player to reach this conclusion, or are you just giving your opinion and trying to pass it off as a fact again?



    Every new expansion class has been based on a WC3 hero. That's called evidence, and it points to the likelihood that the next expansion class is also going to be based on a WC3 hero.



    No, that's complete opinion.



    Yeah, the goalposts were never moved. You attempted to argue that Drustvar was just as optional as professions and got stomped, and now we're back to you deflecting again.




    Except your own source states that Necromancy is death magic, and Blizzard states that Death Knights use Necromancy, which again is death magic. Oh and your own source also reaffirms that Shadowlands is the realm of death from which Necromancy draws its powers.

    Oops.
    Yeah so you're incredibly wrong. Everything I've been able to find says they just use "dark magic" and not expressed said to be using necromancy. The only death knights that used necromancy were the first ones but that was because they were orc necromancers souls shoved into corpses. I can't find ANY lore that expressly states that second generation and up DKs use necromancy.
    Last edited by TheRevenantHero; 2020-12-01 at 12:25 PM.

  17. #1017
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Eh....not really. Does a Demon Hunter not also have a lot of non-weapon based spells too? Same goes for Ret/Prot Paladins. They're all 'magical' classes, and even though they're melee, most of their abilities are magical in nature. The spells you say coincide with what a Necromancer does in game is simply a part of what necromancy does - which is no different from the Light which heals, resurrects, protects, buffs, and smites, and Chaos magic which.....burns.
    Yes, and the majority of the Demon Hunter and Paladin's abilities are tied to weapons. The DK is fairly even in terms of weapon-based and non-weapon based spells.

    All 3 specs of the DK class are regarded as melee specs. DKs are not spell casters akin to Mages, Priests, Warlocks in any sense of the word.
    Other than the fact that they cast spells. Death Knights are the typical "magical knight" or "Battle Mage" found in many fantasy games. That doesn't mean that we HAVE to have a fully ranged class that is doing pretty much exactly what the DK is doing, especially given Blizzard's affection for melee-based Necromancers.

    It's still roles, themes, and specializations that could differentiate them. A healing specialization doesn't make sense and can no longer work in a DK class, while it can in a Necromancer class.
    It honestly doesn't make sense in a Necromancer class either. Especially in WoW where the use of Blood magic really isn't used to restore others, it's used to drain others and enhance only the spell caster. In the case of Death Knights, they use Blood Magic for precisely that purpose.

    Alchemy/Nature magic are themes not found in the DK class, and just about every spec could be seen as a variation of others.
    And again, Alchemy/Nature themes wouldn't be found in a Necromancer class either. Alchemy themes tend to go to science/technology classes in fantasy games.

    You think it's my opinion that the Necromancer concept and theme is traditionally a light-armored spell caster? Just about every MMO/RPG/D&D/Movie etc would disagree with you. You mention other "Necromancers" from other Blizzard games, but in World of Warcraft, a Necromancer is a light armored spell caster that primarily deals damage through magical ranged attacks through necromancy, while a heavy armored class that uses melee attacks and incorporates necromancy is called a Death Knight. It's a distinction that is missing from WoW.
    In World of Warcraft, Necromancers are also Death Knights. Death Knights were the Necromancer hero unit in WC3, and Blizzard purposely put Necromancer class concepts into the Death Knight class.

    I mean in all seriousness, why do you think they didn't introduce a Necromancer class in this expansion? Are you going to follow @Ielenia's BS and think that Shadowlands somehow doesn't fit the theme of a Necromancer class, or are you going to simply admit that Blizzard didn't introduce a Necromancer class into WoW because there's already a Necromancer class in WoW?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yeah so you're incredibly wrong. Everything I've been able to find says they just use "dark magic" and not expressed said to be using necromancy. The only death knights that used necromancy were the first ones but that was because they were orc necromancers souls shoved into corpses. I can't find ANY lore that expressly states that second generation and up DKs use necromancy.
    Uh, did you miss this?

    While all Death Knights have some ability to control and reanimate undead minions, an Unholy Death Knight has chosen to specialize in necromantic magic, and their abilities should reflect that.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ne...-class-updates

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Rogue: a dishonest or unprincipled man.
    Synonyms: scoundrel, villain, reprobate, rascal, good-for-nothing, wretch, picaro, cad, ne'er-do-well, rat, bastard, son of a bitch, SOB, nasty piece of work, dog, cur, louse, crook, scrote, blighter, spalpeen, slicker, scamp, hound, vagabon, drotter, bounder, miscreant, blackguard, dastard, knave, varlet, wastrel, mountebank, picaroon, scamp, rascal, imp, devil, monkey, mischief-maker,
    scallywag, monster, horror, terror, holy terror, perisher, tyke, scally, hellion, varmint,
    scapegrace, rapscallion.

    Assassin: a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.
    Synonyms: homicide, murderer, killer, executioner, gunman, butcher, slaughterer, liquidator, exterminator, terminator,
    hitman, contract man, hired gun, button man,
    slayer.

    Pirate: a person who attacks and robs ships at sea.
    Synonyms: corsair, rover, sea rover, picaroon, filibuster, sea thief, sea robber, water thief, sea wolf, sea rat, water rat, marooner, buccaneer, privateer, freebooter, marauder, raider.

    Ninja: a person skilled in the Japanese art of ninjutsu.
    Ninjutsu: the traditional Japanese art of stealth, camouflage, and sabotage, developed in feudal times for espionage and now practiced as a martial art.
    I'm not sure you're understanding the use of 'rogue' here, in an RPG/MMO context the 'rogue' refers to the character class/archetype of an stealthy and dextrous character who uses guile, tricks and underhanded tactics to gain an advantage, Outlaw uses a concealed firearm (and are themed as swashbucklers/pirates), Assassination focuses on poisons (a common assassination trope), Subtlety uses shadow magic (and are themed as shinobi/ninja), all Rogues also ulilitze evasion, poison and stealth (to different extents, Outlaw uses stealth the least, Assassination uses poison the most, Subtlety uses stealth the most.) and all of those fit under the concept of someone who relys on underhanded techniques to fight. almost every WoW class owns some parts of it's identity to archetypes/classes codified in Dungeons and Dragons (Hunters are the Ranger analogue, Mages are wizards, Priests are clerics, paladins are paladins, Death Knights are blackguards/antipaladins).

    Note: By Subtlety being "Shinobi/Ninja" i mean in regards to them using traits and abilities often associated with Ninja's in popular culture/folk tales where Ninja abilities/techniques are depicted as supernatural (which in the context of WoW's universe becomes using shadow magic) not as them literally being Shinobi/Ninja in the historical sense.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2020-12-01 at 01:43 PM.

  19. #1019
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So we need Blizzard to come out and tell us WHY they're doing it for us to recognize that they are doing it?

    That makes zero sense.
    No. We need Blizzard to "come out and tell us" that this is the way they do things. I.e., that a Warcraft 3 hero unit is a requirement to create a new playable class for WoW.

    Really? Did you take a poll of the average WoW player to reach this conclusion, or are you just giving your opinion and trying to pass it off as a fact again?
    I think it's safe to assume that, considering the overwhelming majority of players nowadays are new players, some of them not even born yet by the time Warcraft 3 came out.

    Every new expansion class has been based on a WC3 hero. That's called evidence, and it points to the likelihood that the next expansion class is also going to be based on a WC3 hero.
    But it is not conclusive evidence, because that exact same evidence also points at the idea that this is just a correlation.

    No, that's complete opinion.
    No, that's a fact. It really is needlessly restrictive to their creativity by limiting their inspiration source to only Warcraft 3. Just like it's needlessly restrictive to ride a bike using just one leg instead of two. Or climb the stairs using just your arms.

    Yeah, the goalposts were never moved.
    Yes, you moved the goalpost, and here's irrefutable evidence of that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because the player's profession choice is never mentioned in lore. You're never referred to as [screen name] "Shaman Engineer" More than likely because it's optional for players.
    This is you making your initial claim. Notice the complete lack of caveats aside from "in lore".
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, during an Engineering quest line given by the profession, you're likely to get something like that. Let me know when Anduin, Jaina, Thrall, or some other lore figure calls you by your profession.
    And then this is literally you moving the goalposts by adding more caveats after the fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's contained within the profession, so I would say it isn't lore
    And this is literally you trying to de-canonize the engineering quests.

    Oops.
    Death knights and necromancer don't use Shadowlands magic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You guys giving this Necromancer a healing role is rather irrelevant because it's simply a variation of the DK's tanking spec which uses the exact same magic school.
    And yet paladins still have a tanking spec using the exact same magic school as the priest's holy spec. And vice-versa.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, and the majority of the Demon Hunter and Paladin's abilities are tied to weapons. The DK is fairly even in terms of weapon-based and non-weapon based spells.
    It doesn't matter. The focus of the class is to stay within melee range and strike with their weapons.

    Other than the fact that they cast spells. Death Knights are the typical "magical knight" or "Battle Mage" found in many fantasy games. That doesn't mean that we HAVE to have a fully ranged class that is doing pretty much exactly what the DK is doing, especially given Blizzard's affection for melee-based Necromancers.
    In other words, you're calling the priest class "unnecessary", considering that the paladin fits the "magical knight" or "battle mage", as well, so that negates the need for a ranged spellcaster class that uses holy magic.

    It honestly doesn't make sense in a Necromancer class either. Especially in WoW where the use of Blood magic really isn't used to restore others, it's used to drain others and enhance only the spell caster. In the case of Death Knights, they use Blood Magic for precisely that purpose.
    It does make sense considering that blood is, well, "the lifeblood of life". Also, shadow magic is also used to restore life, despite being used to drain others and enhance only the spellcaster.

    And again, Alchemy/Nature themes wouldn't be found in a Necromancer class either. Alchemy themes tend to go to science/technology classes in fantasy games.
    We're not advocating for a "nature" theme in a necromancer class. That's the purview of the druid theme. The only "nature" we're speaking of is the damage type, since poisons, in the overwhelming majority of the time, deal nature damage.

    In World of Warcraft, Necromancers are also Death Knights.
    No, they're not. These:


    Are not these:
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  20. #1020
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. We need Blizzard to "come out and tell us" that this is the way they do things. I.e., that a Warcraft 3 hero unit is a requirement to create a new playable class for WoW.
    Again, we don't because we can rub two brain cells together and see that's exactly what they've been doing.

    I think it's safe to assume that, considering the overwhelming majority of players nowadays are new players, some of them not even born yet by the time Warcraft 3 came out.
    Which doesn't mean much because Blizzard reiterates the heroes from WC3 throughout modern WoW and other games. Sylvanas, Thrall, Jaina, Tyrande, The Lich King, etc. Are all characters from WC3 and they all have major roles in the current WoW expansion. Chen, Illidan, and Arthas are all WC3 characters and they were on the covers of WoW expansions in 2008, 2012, and 2016.

    On top of that, you have games like Hearthstone which uses WC3 heroes as the avatars for classes, and you have Heroes of the Storm where major lore characters (mostly from WC3) are used as the heroes of the game. So even if you never played WC3, you're constantly bombarded by those characters by Blizzard.

    Which once again demonstrates how important those lore characters are to Blizzard which enhances the case that they would use those characters as models for their class system in WoW.

    But it is not conclusive evidence, because that exact same evidence also points at the idea that this is just a correlation.
    The only part that is inconclusive is if the next class will also be a lore character from WC3. Again, given that the last three expansion classes were based on WC3 heroes, it stands to reason that the next one will be too.

    No, that's a fact. It really is needlessly restrictive to their creativity by limiting their inspiration source to only Warcraft 3. Just like it's needlessly restrictive to ride a bike using just one leg instead of two. Or climb the stairs using just your arms.
    Like I said, this is just your opinion. It's stunning you can't tell the difference between a fact or an opinion.

    Yes, you moved the goalpost, and here's irrefutable evidence of that:

    This is you making your initial claim. Notice the complete lack of caveats aside from "in lore".

    And then this is literally you moving the goalposts by adding more caveats after the fact.

    And this is literally you trying to de-canonize the engineering quests.
    Like I said, you can't use a quest from engineering as an example that engineering is lore based.

    Death knights and necromancer don't use Shadowlands magic.
    Here's you playing semantics again. No, they use Death magic powered by the Shadowlands, since Shadowlands is the realm of death. For example, Necromancers and Death Knights use the undead from Maldraxxus to power their armies.

    - - - Updated - - -


    And yet paladins still have a tanking spec using the exact same magic school as the priest's holy spec. And vice-versa.
    Yes, Paladins wear heavy armor infused with holy magic. Tanking makes sense. Necromancers use magic to empower themselves, so healing doesn't make much sense.

    It doesn't matter. The focus of the class is to stay within melee range and strike with their weapons.
    It does matter, because if the DK has a lot of ranged necromantic spells, that gives less space to a Necromancer using those same spells in the same way.

    In other words, you're calling the priest class "unnecessary", considering that the paladin fits the "magical knight" or "battle mage", as well, so that negates the need for a ranged spellcaster class that uses holy magic.
    Again, Priests blend holy and shadow magic. A paladin does not.


    No, they're not. These:


    Are not these:
    Both groups use Necromantic magic. That makes both groups Necromancers.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-12-01 at 03:21 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •