1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by Starbrand View Post
    In terms of the Guild Wars "professions"/classes

    -Thief, Ranger, & Warrior = WoW already has these covered.

    -Elementalist = Given the already large variety of elemental classes and specs already, namely the Mage (Fire & Frost respectively)
    Shaman (Enhancement, Restoration, & Elemental use all the elements to varying degrees), and the Monk (Wind), I doubt they'd
    make another elemental class. Although one could argue that certain elements aren't given enough representation, and you could
    potentially make classes out of them, but what would make say, a spellcaster who uses Water or Earth exclusively do different from
    what we have already?

    -Engineer = Probably the only class not in WoW, but we already have a profession that would pretty much negate any of the
    uniqueness of the Engineer or "Tinker" in this case as a class.

    -Guardian = I assume that's the tank of the game? I know nothing of this one.

    -Mesmer = I'm pretty sure the Shadow Priest has this covered, as a lot of spells are flavor themed to being Mind-based.

    -Necromancer = The problem with this class is that nearly all it's flavor and spells are already taken by the Death Knight.
    You would have to redesign the Death Knight class in order to make the Necromancer exist.

    The only example I see here is the Dragon Knight (no idea about the others), but this is something they could do.
    This could be another hero class, and since there are several Aspects with their own element to correspond to,
    there's a lot of freedom of creativity here. Plus who doesn't want to play as a goddamn dragon. Probably the
    strongest class option they have to make imo.

    -Cryomancer, Paladin, Lightbinder, Archer, Berserker, Slayer, Warlock, & Knight = WoW already has these covered.

    -Kinetic = I assume this is a mix between Monk and Arcane Mage? It's a unique enough idea, but there's
    nothing in WoW, to my knowledge, that would allow this class to exist.

    -Necromancer = See above. Cannot be done.

    -Gunner = There's several Hunter talents and skills that use the theme of guns already, so I
    don't see the need to add a dedicated "gun only" class.

    -Witch = This could potentially be done, but you'd be hard pressed to find a way of making Witches
    different from Warlocks since Affliction Warlocks already exist. Imo you'd need to essentially make
    an amalgam of an Affliction Warlock and a Balance Druid.

    -Alchemist = Another unique idea, especially since you could have this class use various items taken
    from either vendors or drops from enemies and craft items to use offensively/defensively. But there's
    already a profession of Alchemy that heavily follows this theme, so it can't be done.

    -Knight, Thief, Dark Knight, Ranger, Sage, Monk, Paladin, White Mage, & Black Mage = WoW already has these covered.

    -Bard = A very unique idea, and this isn't in WoW. The biggest issue though is that WoW most likely will not create
    dedicated "buffer" classes. There's also the fact that a class entirely based on singing is just completely non-existent.
    Yes, there are songs with powers, but no dedicated (lore wise) classes for them. So atm, this cannot be done. That is,
    unless they were to introduce a new race with this as a class. Then it could be done.

    -Samurai = Lore-wise, Bladesmasters are samurai. I *assume* the Arms Warrior is supposed to be a Bladesmaster. If I'm
    right, this is already done. If I'm not, it could be done I suppose, but what separates them from Arms Warriors?

    -Ninja = The Subtlety Rogue has talents that are "ninja-esque" in theme. Granted, the name of "subtlety" for a Rogue is
    fucking stupid, and I'd love it if they just renamed them. Either way, if this was to be done, the Pandaren were the best
    way to do it, so this chance is long gone unfortunately.

    -Dragoon = A unique idea, but I believe the Demon Hunter with it's many acrobatic animations and attacks pretty much
    have this covered.

    -Machinist = See my comments on the Gunner class.

    -Red Mage = A mix of magic and melee already exists with the Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin. One could
    also make the argument that the hybrid classes in WoW (such as the Druid) already can do it, depending on the spec you
    pick. The problem with an actual Red Mage is Blizzard needing to find the right place for it, and also, I can't imagine the
    nightmare it would be to balance this class.

    -Alchemist = See above, not possible.

    -Beastmaster = Pretty sure the Survival Hunter fills the niche for this.

    -Freelancer = Yeah there's no way this class would work in WoW.

    -Geomancer = I actually don't know this class. It's it Earth based? If so, the Shaman has this covered.

    -Time Mage = A unique idea, but there are already time-like spells and talents that Mages use, particularly Arcane Mages,
    so I can't see them making a dedicated class.

    -Blue Mage = A very unique class idea, but Blizzard would have a helluva time implementing the core aspect of this
    class, namely the how one goes about "learning" enemy skills. And bliz would need to go over which ones this class
    could learn, because some enemy skills could be hilariously overpowered.

    All of the classes here are covered by an existing WoW class or spec. The sole exception is the Bard, which see above.

    All of the classes here are covered by an existing WoW class or spec. The sole exception is the Bard, which see above.

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. Wardens are only Night Elves.
    2. Most of the Wardens unique abilities are sourced out to other classes.
    3. What does Warden bring to the table that Rogues, Monks, Survival Hunters, and Demon Hunters don't already bring?
    4. Good luck making multiple specializations.
    1. easily fixable - as Demon Hunters were mostly associated with Night elves, Death Knights with Humans and Monks with Pandaren.
    2. Death Coil was sourced to the Warlock, Mana Burn was sourced to the Priest, Immolate was sourced to the Warlock, Evasion is sourced to the Rogue and Metamorphosis was sourced to the Warlock. and yet, here we are.
    3. What did Demon Hunters bring to the table that Warlocks didn't already bring when they had Metamorphosis? they bring another theme - that of the Warden, a criminal hunter, a justice seeker, an imprisoner that is not a Holy user, like a Paladin or a Fel user, like a Demon Hunter.
    4. It's not up to me. it's up to Blizzard. if they can pull out a whole monk class out of their ass, they can pull out a Warden, as well.

  3. #1063
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Dragonsworn is an RPG class. They are unlikely to pull a new class out of the RPG, as the classes that were added through the expansions were based on WC3 hero units.
    And my whole point is that we don't know that new classes have to be based off Warcraft 3 hero units. Like I said, multiple times: it's needlessly restrictive to limit their creativity to only what's inside the Warcraft 3 game, and it's also a rather nonsensical argument when you see at all the things they added into WoW that did not exist in Warcraft 3, like the continent of Pandaria, the jinyu/ankoan, the mogu, alternate Draenor, etc.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  4. #1064
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    1. easily fixable - as Demon Hunters were mostly associated with Night elves, Death Knights with Humans and Monks with Pandaren.
    Blood Elf Demon Hunters were established in TBC, and set up in WC3. Non-human DKs were set up before WotLK. We had non-Pandaren Monks for years in WoW before MoP. Every Warden we've run across has been NE.

    2. Death Coil was sourced to the Warlock,
    Different ability.

    Mana Burn was sourced to the Priest, Immolate was sourced to the Warlock, Evasion is sourced to the Rogue and Metamorphosis was sourced to the Warlock. and yet, here we are.
    Yeah, I never supported the entrance of Demon Hunters into WoW, but they still had more material to work with than Wardens. The Warden is an even narrower concept than Demon Hunters.

    3. What did Demon Hunters bring to the table that Warlocks didn't already bring when they had Metamorphosis? they bring another theme - that of the Warden, a criminal hunter, a justice seeker, an imprisoner that is not a Holy user, like a Paladin or a Fel user, like a Demon Hunter.
    Yes, which is why Metamorphosis was removed for Warlocks and placed in the DH class. So now with Demon Hunters you have this quick agile fighter that can transform into a huge hulking demon. Its a unique enough concept to carry a class. The Warden doesn't have that. The Warden is just an assassin who uses shadow magic and poison. It doesn't have that "Oh shit" ability like Demon Hunters had, which is why Rogues are more than enough to handle their concept.

    4. It's not up to me. it's up to Blizzard. if they can pull out a whole monk class out of their ass, they can pull out a Warden, as well.
    Well they didn't pull the entire Monk class out of their ass. They took the Brewmaster concept, the Pandaren theme, and the general Martial arts tropes, and crafted a fairly unique melee class. However, the difference is that we didn't have a true Martial arts class, so the Monk filled a gap in the class lineup. There's no gaps for the Warden to fill.

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Ah, so they were scrapped early, that makes sense. When they say early, they must mean in the extremely early stages, which could indicate that at first they were trying to copy Everquest, then settled on a different class strategy which moved them towards using the WC3 hero units. I've also heard that one of the reasons they chose Warlocks over Necromancers was to avoid being too much like Everquest's class lineup.
    They'd always had WC3 heros, its just that they weren't all implemented.

    Runemaster sounds like it would have been awesome. Do you remember much about what kind of abilities or playstyle it would have? ( Healer, DPS? ) Or did the planning not even get that far?


    Necromancer, Runemaster and Death Knight - all got rolled together into DK.
    Demon Hunter, Monk - eventually showed up (even tho I tried to poach demon hunter into Warlock, that didn't last)
    - Xelnath, the former Warlock designer behind adding Metamorphosis to Warlocks

    And no, they were not cut at extremely early stages. Gameplay was already created for many of the classes including Necromancer, Runemaster, Monk and Demon Hunter. They were just forcibly cut sometime during development to keep things streamlined and simplified.

    Uh, WoW is the direct sequel to WC3 featuring every major character from the latter game, so I would say it's quite a bit more than "loosely based".
    The major characters sure, but the classes very loosely represent any of those major characters. The major characters aren't even limited by any of the class restrictions that players have; such as armor class or weapon types or schools of magic. They're able to do anything and everything. It's all loosely based considering major characters are literally portrayed outside of classes.

    Greymane, for example, fights with unarmed claw strikes. Anduin is a main character Priest who uses 2H swords. Wrathion doesn't even have a class. These are all examples of WoW growing beyond WC3. If we're going to talk about new classes today, we have to regard how the new class fits in the game; much like how Demon Hunters barely resemble their WC3 portrayal down to the use of Metamorphosis. WC3 Metamorphosis was almost exactly like how Warlocks had it; a ranged DPS form that uses spells and ranged attacks; while the Demon Hunter class got an improved melee form that is more themed off of Heroes of the Storm. This is on top of all the dashing attacks that the Demon Hunter has now.

    We can gather that Heroes of the Storm has a greater influence on modern class design than WC3, even if the core concept came from WC3.

    This is primarily what informs us that a Dragon class could easily be themed through HOTS abilities, considering we have 3 playable Dragons in the game and plenty of non-dragons with draconic-themed abilities
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-12-02 at 01:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  6. #1066
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They'd always had WC3 heros, its just that they weren't all implemented.

    Runemaster sounds like it would have been awesome. Do you remember much about what kind of abilities or playstyle it would have? ( Healer, DPS? ) Or did the planning not even get that far?


    Necromancer, Runemaster and Death Knight - all got rolled together into DK.
    Demon Hunter, Monk - eventually showed up (even tho I tried to poach demon hunter into Warlock, that didn't last)
    - Xelnath, the former Warlock designer behind adding Metamorphosis to Warlocks

    And no, early was not extremely early stages. Gameplay was already created for many of the classes including Necromancer, Runemaster, Monk and Demon Hunter. They were just forcibly cut sometime during development to keep things streamlined and simplified.
    So what aspect of Runemaster made it into Death Knights? The Rune resource system? Because everything else is Death Knight, Undead heroes, and Necromancers.


    The major characters sure, but the classes very loosely represent any of those major characters. The major characters aren't even limited by any of the class restrictions that players have; such as armor class or weapon types or schools of magic. They're able to do anything and everything. It's all loosely based considering major characters are literally portrayed outside of classes.

    Greymane, for example, fights with unarmed claw strikes. Anduin is a main character Priest who uses 2H swords. Wrathion doesn't even have a class.
    I'd consider Anduin a porto-paladin. Wrathion is a dragon, so obviously he isn't a character class. Greymane is a Worgen who breaks the rules of his race's lore for plot purposes, so what he is doesn't matter all that much.

    We can gather that Heroes of the Storm has a greater influence on modern class design than WC3, even if the core concept came from WC3.
    Considering the placement of HotS Tinker abilities into the Island Expedition teams in BFA, you might be right about that.

  7. #1067
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well for starters, that's not Tirion, that's Uther, so its 3 out of ten.
    My mistake. The point still stands, though.

    Also where did I say that WoW exists to push WC3? I said that Blizzard pushes their WC3 characters into other games, since they're clearly franchise characters, and those WC3 characters are used as templates for new characters.
    Riiiiiiight... here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is the fact that the majority of the Warcraft characters in HotS come from WC3 make my argument "nonsense" when my argument is that WC3 characters are pushed heavily by Blizzard throughout their WC games?

    Again, when it's exhibited in every single class, what else should we treat it as? Chance? A coincidence?
    Exactly: we should treat it as a coincidence. And you know why? Because we don't have any word from Blizzard whatsoever about it being a rule for class creation. Even if the first three expansions classes being tied to those WC3 units was intentional, we still need word from Blizzard.

    Find a statement from Blizzard so that you can ignore and deny it like your done several times when Blizzard's statements have been presented to you? No thanks.
    In other words: you have nothing. Because when you do have statements from Blizzards, you have no problem whatsoever to post them, like you did here barely two pages ago.

    Well Demonic magic is fundamentally different than the magic used by Mages since it uses Shadow magic. Shadow magic behaves differently than Arcane, Fire, and Ice magic. Poison doesn't behave fundamentally differently than Diseases.
    There we go. "Rules for thee but not for me". Guess what? Poison magic that deals "nature damage" is also fundamentally different than diseases. That deal frost and shadow damage, mind you.

    Except we have multiple spell caster specs, so that isn't it. Again, the selling point of the Necromancer class is already present in the existing Death Knight class.
    Yes, that is a selling point, because we are long overdue for another spellcaster class considering all three expansion classes have been melee classes. And, Teriz, please don't try to speak for other people. You don't get to tell us what the selling points of the necromancer are. That is so condescendingly arrogant of you.

    Yes, because they do fundamentally different things. A Necromancer and a DK do not.
    Yes. Healing with holy magic is fundamentally different than healing with holy magic, right?

    What you're proposing is like the difference between an Enhance and Elemental Shaman.
    Again, wrong. What we're proposing is the difference between the priest class and the paladin class.

    Quite doubtful since none of the abilities of either have appeared in either profession. Also professions are based on the WC3 item shop, not the hero units.
    Abilities are irrelevant considering I was talking about the concepts themselves, and the engineering profession adheres to a 'T' the lore description of the WC3 tinker hero regarding technology malfunctions.

    Triceron was attempting to argue that a Dragonsworn has the same pedigree as a Dark Ranger or a Tinker. They don't.
    Because you speak for Blizzard to decide that, right? I said it before, and I'll say it again: any "pedigree" or "requirements" exist in your head, and in your head only.

    I'm saying that the argument that the Rogue isn't based on any heroes from WC3 is false.
    That is actually very true. The rogue class was not based on a single WC3 hero unit. And neither was the warlock, too. And "taking abilities from random creeps/basic units" does not count as "being based on".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    With the classic classes no, since they're mostly combinations of multiple units fitting a theme with an occasional hero attached.

    However with the expansion classes, every single one comes from a hero unit with their entire kits attached from the start.
    But the vanilla classes prove that we don't need a WC3 hero, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, Teriz, I'm still waiting on your reply on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Not really, since the biggest characters in WoW are the WC3 characters. Again, it's the WC3 characters that have ended up on the covers of WoW.
    Saurfang is not a WC3 character.
    Lor'themar Theron is not a WC3 character.
    Gallywix is not a WC3 character.
    Varian is not a WC3 character.
    Anduin is not a WC3 character.
    Hamuul Runetotem is not a WC3 character.
    Valeera is not a WC3 character.
    Greymane is not a WC3 character.
    There are more, but those are just off the top of my head.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So what aspect of Runemaster made it into Death Knights? The Rune resource system? Because everything else is Death Knight, Undead heroes, and Necromancers.
    If we knew then it wouldn't be a mystery. We don't even know what a Runemaster is outside of the RPG books, which is the only source of the class. But the fact it existed shows that not everything has to derive from WC3 as a 1:1 concept.

    It's a class that's been mentioned multiple times by different devs, all corroborating the idea that this concept got fairly far in the dev process, enough for some to have personal attachment to. I don't think that would happen if it were just a paper-concept like what we know of in the RPG books that got scrapped before given any gameplay. The fact that it has zero conceptual themes shared with a DK and was named as a class that got folded into the DK shows that there was indeed some form of gameplay; and we see that in the DK's rune system today. Whatever more was taken we won't really know unless the devs could provide more detail to what this Runemaster originally was going to be. I find it curious that it was being compared to Druids and Warlocks, which makes me thing it was actually more of a caster than the melee representation we know of in the RPG books.

    Gameplay wise, I'd imagine if they took any of the gameplay from the Runemaster it might have been the dual-wield Parry tanking of Frost, which would have made a lot more sense applied to a Runemaster who tanked with enchantment cooldowns and parrying with his fists.

    Considering the placement of HotS Tinker abilities into the Island Expedition teams in BFA, you might be right about that.
    Yes, which makes a new class based on HOTS design more likely than in WC3.

    And with something like a Draconic themed class, we have far more to draw from than simple technology from one class. Consider that Mekkatorque was shown at Blizzcon as a hero already made in Heroes of the Storm , but they never ended up adding him in and have since added 3 Dragon heroes from WoW instead.

    https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Gelbin
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-12-02 at 01:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  9. #1069
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Riiiiiiight... here:
    Yes, WC3 characters. Not WC3 the game.

    Exactly: we should treat it as a coincidence. And you know why? Because we don't have any word from Blizzard whatsoever about it being a rule for class creation. Even if the first three expansions classes being tied to those WC3 units was intentional, we still need word from Blizzard.
    Again, we don't need to understand the "why" to recognize that it is happening.

    There we go. "Rules for thee but not for me". Guess what? Poison magic that deals "nature damage" is also fundamentally different than diseases. That deal frost and shadow damage, mind you.
    Then please explain from a gameplay standpoint how a Necromancer spreading AoE nature DoT is going to be any different than a DK disease dealing shadow DoT.

    Yes, that is a selling point, because we are long overdue for another spellcaster class considering all three expansion classes have been melee classes. And, Teriz, please don't try to speak for other people. You don't get to tell us what the selling points of the necromancer are. That is so condescendingly arrogant of you.
    No, the selling point of a Necromancer is a spell caster than can raise undead minions. DKs are already spell casters tha can raise undead minions. No one is pining for a spell caster than can spread poison.

    Yes. Healing with holy magic is fundamentally different than healing with holy magic, right?
    Yeah, let's keep pretending that Shadow and Discipline Priest doesn't exist.....

    Again, wrong. What we're proposing is the difference between the priest class and the paladin class.
    If you say so.

    Abilities are irrelevant considering I was talking about the concepts themselves, and the engineering profession adheres to a 'T' the lore description of the WC3 tinker hero regarding technology malfunctions.
    Where's the Tinker's claw pack in Engineering?

    Because you speak for Blizzard to decide that, right? I said it before, and I'll say it again: any "pedigree" or "requirements" exist in your head, and in your head only.
    And within all 3 expansion classes.

    But the vanilla classes prove that we don't need a WC3 hero, though.
    But the expansion classes do, and the next class we're getting is an expansion class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If we knew then it wouldn't be a mystery. We don't even know what a Runemaster is outside of the RPG books, which is the only source of the class. But the fact it existed shows that not everything has to derive from WC3 as a 1:1 concept.

    It's a class that's been mentioned multiple times by different devs, all corroborating the idea that this concept got fairly far in the dev process, enough for some to have personal attachment to. I don't think that would happen if it were just a paper-concept like what we know of in the RPG books that got scrapped before given any gameplay. The fact that it has zero conceptual themes shared with a DK and was named as a class that got folded into the DK shows that there was indeed some form of gameplay; and we see that in the DK's rune system today. Whatever more was taken we won't really know unless the devs could provide more detail to what this Runemaster originally was going to be. I find it curious that it was being compared to Druids and Warlocks, which makes me thing it was actually more of a caster than the melee representation we know of in the RPG books.

    Gameplay wise, I'd imagine if they took any of the gameplay from the Runemaster it might have been the dual-wield Parry tanking of Frost, which would have made a lot more sense applied to a Runemaster who tanked with enchantment cooldowns and parrying with his fists.
    Unfortunate. I rather liked the Monk-based version of the Runemaster.

    Yes, which makes a new class based on HOTS design more likely than in WC3.

    And with something like a Draconic themed class, we have far more to draw from than simple technology from one class. Consider that Mekkatorque was shown at Blizzcon as a hero already made in Heroes of the Storm , but they never ended up adding him in and have since added 3 Dragon heroes from WoW instead.

    https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Gelbin
    Okay, I then agree that a Dragonsworn class based on the HotS heroes has an opening as a possible future WoW class thanks to Blizzard's apparent shift from WC3 to HotS as shown in the Demon Hunter class, the Shaman class, Dark Ranger NPCs, and the appearance of HotS Tinker abilities in the IE teams.

  10. #1070
    Silly question. It would be another leather tank of course. Last two have been advanced rogues, why wouldn't the next one be that as well?

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I don't know, when ever i play western games i tend to use shotguns more then anything.
    Two specs ready to go.

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Directionalk9 View Post
    Two specs ready to go.
    shotgun, dual pistols and like snake oil for healing.

  13. #1073
    Dragonsworn or whatever would be cool if they make that Dragon Isles expansion that seems to be going around rn.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You're joking, right? They are, literally, called Death Knights.
    again, with the dark magic... what kind of dark magic? is it fel, void or necromancy? dark is just a general term. just like arcane mages and balance druids deal arcane magic, but are different. frost mages, frost death knights, Shamans and Hunter traps deal frost damage, but they are different. fire mages, destruction warlocks, shamans and hunters deal fire damage, but they are different. Rogue's poisons, Hunter's venom, Druid's sun abilities and Shaman's earth/wind deal nature damage, but they are different. shadow priests, subtlety rogues, warlocks, demon hunters and death knights deal shadow damage, but they are different. shamans, druids and monks heal with nature magic, but they are different.

    The necromancer class was one of three front runners to becoming the first hero class released with Wrath of the Lich King, however, the ideas surrounding them were incorporated into the death knight. (The two other front runners being runemasters and monks.)

    Raise Dead, a necromancer ability from Warcraft 3, a Death Knight ability from Warcraft 2, and a Necrolyte ability from Warcraft 1, was given to the Death Knight:
    Raise Dead
    Level 55 Unholy death knight ability
    30 yd range60 sec cooldown
    Instant
    Raises a ghoul to fight by your side. You can have a maximum of one ghoul at a time.

    Unholy Frenzy, a warcraft 3 necromancer ability, was given to the Death Knight:
    Unholy Frenzy
    Level 58 Unholy death knight talent
    Passive
    When a Festering Wound bursts, you gain 100% increased attack speed for 2.5 sec.

    In Warcraft 3, Death Knights use Death Coil:
    "Death Coil is an iconic death knight ability that was first used by the Death Knight unit in Warcraft II, and was subsequently used by Death Knights in Warcraft III, and the tabletop RPG."

    Warcraft 2:
    "Death Coil is a particularly potent variation of the Touch of Darkness spell. By channeling the necromantic powers of the underworld through his ghoulish form, the Death Knight creates a field of dark energy that drains the life-force from any who come in contact with it. This life-force is then consumed - thereby replenishing the strength of one so enchanted, be he friend or foe. The icy embrace of death can be beneficial...for those who know how to control it."

    Warcraft 3:
    "Death knights can call upon the forces of darkness at will, causing bolts of death to issue from their hands. While doing considerable damage to the death knights’ enemies, the Death Coil also heals their undead brethren."

    Death Pact:
    "Through the sacrifice of his followers, a death knight can absorb their unholy energies and convert them into health for himself."

    Animate Dead:
    Animate Dead (Ultimate)
    Raises 6 dead units in an area to fight for the Death Knight. Animated units are invulnerable.

    Death and Decay was give to the Death Knight class:
    Death and Decay is a signature spell of both the death knights of Warcraft II and the liches of Warcraft III. It is a necromancy spell.
    The baleful energies of the spell cause anything caught inside to rot, decompose, and wither within seconds - even causing stone to blacken and crumble to dust.

    "Death knights are the former champions of the Scourge. They fortify their bodies and drain life energy itself with the power of blood, sharpen their blades and strike powerfully with the power of frost, and raise the dead while striking with the unholy fervor granted by undeath."

    They, literally, ride undead horses, gained through the shadowlands, in their starting area:
    "In life, this deathcharger was a horse owned by the Scarlet Crusade, and kept at the Havenshire Stables under the watch of Stable Master Kitrik. The horse was then stolen by an initiate Death knight of Acherus and returned to Salanar the Horseman, who then sent the animal to the Realm of Shadows, where one of his Dark Riders of Acherus awaited it.

    The Dark Rider slew the horse and then raised it as a deathcharger. The death knight was then sent into the realm by Salanar to challenge the dark rider. If successful in killing the dark rider (most are not), the deathcharger permits the death knight to ride it. Returned to the world of the living, Salanar presents the deathcharger as the death knight's new, personal mount."

    Once again, you are showing that you know nothing about lore, and you are here to troll.



    That is, somewhat, true.
    Paladin could be seen as an upgraded version of the Knight unit:
    Human Paladins are Knights trained in the ways of divinity ("At the end of the war, Archbishop Alonsus Faol and his apprentice Uther Lightbringer founded the Knights of the Silver Hand. This order trained clerics and knights in both the ways of war and divinity.")

    The Blood Mage could be seen as an upgraded version of the Sorceress and Spellbreaker units:
    While the Sorceress expresses the Arcane mastery of High elves/Blood elves ("Blood Elves present a significant force of Arcane mastery in the world of Azeroth. Even before their fall, the Elves were noted for their mastery over Arcane magic. Most, if not all Blood Elves have rudimentary knowledge in the Arcane arts and many choose the path of the mage."), the Blood mage expresses the Blood elf magic school preference ("While most high elves choose the frost school, blood elves prefer to practice fire magic.")

    Mystical heroes, blood mages (a.k.a. bloodmages, sometimes blood magi or bloodmagi are blood elves adept at controlling magic and ranged assault. The Blood mage has Drain Mana ability.

    The Spellbreaker unit has Control Magic ability. it, also, has Feedback ability - destroying mana.

    Although, not really visible on his WC3 model, in Heroes of the Storm it is visible to see that Kael'thas wears plate armor. he is, also, said to be a melee combatant - using his sword, Felo'melorn, in battle.

    Mountain King could be seen as an upgrade version of the Gryphon Rider unit:
    They both use lightning-hammers. Gryphon Rider uses Storm Hammers ability and Mountain King uses Storm Bolt and Thunder Clap.

    Far Seer could be seen as an upgraded version of the Shaman unit:
    Under the leadership of Thrall, the Orcs have rediscovered their ancient Shamanistic traditions. Now, all Orc magic users practice Shaman magic which draws its power from the natural world and the elements. Powerful shamans can call lightning from the sky and rouse the earth itself to devour legions of their enemies.

    Far Seers are ancient Orcs who represent the pinnacle of Shamanistic power. Far Seers are not only tied to the elements of the earth and sky, but are also adept at foretelling the future.

    Tauren Chieftain could be seen as an upgraded version of the Tauren Warrior and Spirit Walker units:
    These elder Tauren warriors lead their Tribes in daily life as well as in battle. When roused by battle, the gigantic Chiefs employ enormous warblades which are capable of tearing through solid trees with one mighty swipe

    When roused, tauren are fierce fighters and use their mighty totems to smash their enemies into the dust of the plains.

    The reason i included the Spirit Walker is because Tauren Chieftains also possess the Shamanistic Reincarnation ability.

    Shadow Hunter could be seen as an upgraded version of the Witch Doctor unit:
    The Witch Doctor unit uses Sentry Ward, Stasis Trap Ward and Healing Ward. the Shadow Hunter uses Serpent Ward.

    Crypt Lord could be seen as an upgraded version of the Crypt Fiend:
    The cunning Crypt Fiends were once the lords of the ancient spider kingdom of Azjol-Nerub that spanned the entirety of Northrend in ancient times. However, the Crypt Fiends' power base was destroyed by the Lich King, Ner'zhul, when he and his undead Scourge took control of the frozen continent. Now the Crypt Fiends command their spider underlings in the name of their master, Ner'zhul. These aberrant creatures are capable of summoning swarms of vile insects [...].

    These ancient, evil behemoths were once the mighty kings of the subterranean spider kingdom of Azjol-Nerub. Though the Nerubians fell before the wrath of the Lich King during the fabled War of the Spider, the insidious Crypt Lords were swayed over to the Lich King's ranks and granted considerable power and the immortality of undeath. Now the giant, thundering beasts serve as the Lich King's mightiest warriors and the guardians of the Scourge's holdings in Northrend. They can summon swarms of insects, as well, through the Locust Swarm ability.

    Dreadlord could be seen as an upgraded version of the Gargoyle unit:
    They are both vampiric. and, as we learn in Shadowlands, Dreadlords are, probably, former Revendreth denizens.

    Dark Ranger could be seen as an upgrade version of the Banshee unit:
    Pretty obvious, as Sylvanas was raised as a Banshee before she regained her physical body and became a Dark Ranger. The Bashee has a Possession ability, while the Dark Ranger has a Charm ability (both are to take control of the enemy).

    Death Knight could be seen as an upgraded version of the Necromancer (or Lich, as Kel'thuzad was transformed from a Necromamcer unit into a Lich hero unit):
    The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. The Death Knight has Animate Dead ability - raising 6 dead units. Death Knights also have the Death Pact ability - kills a friendly target unit (in exchange for HP).

    Though they retained their Humanity after making a pact with death, Necromancers became the most terrifying agents of the Scourge. Ner'zhul, the Lich King, granted these malevolent sorcerers true power over the dead in exchange for their loyalty and obedience. the Necromancer has Raise Dead ability - raises 2 skeletons. Necromancers also have Unholy Frenzy - Sacrifices a friendly undead unit (in exchange for Haste).

    Now, Liches wield frost magic along with their own considerable necromantic spells. Liches possess the Dark Ritual ability - sacrifices a friendly target unit (in exchange for mana).

    Keeper of the Grove could be seen as an upgraded version of the Dryad unit:
    The enchanted Keepers are the favored sons of the demigod Cenarius. Like their lesser Dryad sisters, the Keepers appear to be half Night Elf, half stag. Though they typically remain within the sacred Moon Groves of Ashenvale forest, the Keepers always heed the call to arms when the greater lands of Kalimdor are threatened.

    The enchanted Dryads are the daughters of the Night Elf demigod, Cenarius. Though they abhor unnecessary violence, the Dryads will defend the wildlands of Kalimdor with their lives if need be.

    Priestess of the Moon could be seen as an upgraded version of the Archer and Huntress units:
    The first rank of the Sentinel army is comprised of Archers. They possess the Elune's Grace ability.

    Huntresses are the elite cadre of the Sentinel army. Drawing their strength from the moon goddess, Elune, these warrior women ride the feral Nightsabre panthers into battle. Huntresses are strong, swift, and merciless to those who would defile the sanctity of Ashenvale Forest. They Possess the Sentinel ability - summons an owl.

    The fearless leaders of the Sentinel army, the Priestesses of the Moon epitomize the power and grace of their race's ancient Moon Goddess, Elune. The Priestesses, equipped with silvery, glowing armor, ride the fearless Frostsaber tigers of Winterspring into battle. Charged with the safekeeping of the night elf lands and armed with magical energy bows - the Priestesses will stop at nothing to rid their ancient land of evil. They possess the Scout ability - summons an owl.

    The Goblin Tinker could be seen as an upgraded version of the Goblin Sapper unit:
    The Sapper posesses the Kaboom! ability - exploding the sapper.

    Though his parts may sometimes fail and the occasional explosion does occur [...]. The Tinker possesses the Pocket Factory ability - summons a Clockwerk Goblin, which explodes. It, also, possesses the Cluster Rockets ability - bombards an area with rockets.

    Naga Sea Witch could be seen as an upgraded version of the Naga Siren:
    Their Parasite ability can corrupt enemies, turning them into a watery minion, while their Frost Shield protects friendly units from harm. The sirens can create whirlpools while underwater, to entrap enemies, and when they returned to the surface [...].

    Naga Sea Witch possesses the Frost Arrows and Tornado abilities.



    I know. i just tried to clarify that the term is not always interchangeable. meaning, a Rogue can produce an Assassin, Pirate or Ninja but, an Assassin doesn't always produces a Rogue, Pirate or Ninja; a Pirate does not, necessarily, produces a Rogue, Assassin or Ninja; and a Ninja does not, always, mean you are a Rogue, Assassin or Pirate.



    Did i just read it right? you're in favor of Dark Rangers? have the end times come?

    P.S. - WoWpedia images do not work, for some reason. use images from google that do not use the Wiki link.
    I'm not reading any of this. Try not writing a god damned novel next time.

  15. #1075
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, and the majority of the Demon Hunter and Paladin's abilities are tied to weapons. The DK is fairly even in terms of weapon-based and non-weapon based spells.
    All of these magical melee classes have spells, and then melee attacks that deal magical damage. Only a few attacks deal straight physical damage and the Death Knight is no different.

    Other than the fact that they cast spells. Death Knights are the typical "magical knight" or "Battle Mage" found in many fantasy games. That doesn't mean that we HAVE to have a fully ranged class that is doing pretty much exactly what the DK is doing, especially given Blizzard's affection for melee-based Necromancers.
    We don't HAVE to have any new classes in future expansions period. The point is, there exists an opening for a true ranged spell caster that utilizes necromancy and the Necromancer class concept is very popular.

    It honestly doesn't make sense in a Necromancer class either. Especially in WoW where the use of Blood magic really isn't used to restore others, it's used to drain others and enhance only the spell caster. In the case of Death Knights, they use Blood Magic for precisely that purpose.
    Blood Magic is used to heal, shield, protect, and buff allies. So no, you're 100% wrong here. Using Blood Magic to help allies is found in WoW and could be part of the Necromancer's theme/concept.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=276540...ld#used-by-npc
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=90946/bloodwash
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=24617/blood-funnel
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=169214/vivifying-blood
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=235262/blood-siphon
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=61606/mark-of-blood

    And again, Alchemy/Nature themes wouldn't be found in a Necromancer class either. Alchemy themes tend to go to science/technology classes in fantasy games.
    WoW lore/NPCs is pretty clear that alchemy, nature magic, poison etc, are all found within Necromancers, but not DKs. It's a significant feature that sets them apart. Necromancer students are literally being taught the skill in Scholomance. This notion of yours that alchemy/poison magic isn't found in the Necromancer class is your opinion, and demonstrably proven false over and over.

    In World of Warcraft, Necromancers are also Death Knights. Death Knights were the Necromancer hero unit in WC3, and Blizzard purposely put Necromancer class concepts into the Death Knight class.
    You're just further highlighting that there's a difference between Necromancers and Death Knights. The two classes share necromancy and themes, but they don't share class concepts. The Necromancer class concept is a light-armored RANGED spell caster that uses necromancy. The Death Knight class concept is a heavy armored, MELEE attacker, that uses necromancy. I really find it funny that you get so hung up on WC3 hero classes and existing in-game Necromancer NPCs when most WC3 heroes have like 2-3? abilities and most Necromancer NPCs in game also have 1-2 abilities and its often Warlock spells. A full fledged Necromancer concept developed by blizzard would only strengthen the differences between Necromancers and Death Knights. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that.

    I mean in all seriousness, why do you think they didn't introduce a Necromancer class in this expansion? Are you going to follow @Ielenia's BS and think that Shadowlands somehow doesn't fit the theme of a Necromancer class, or are you going to simply admit that Blizzard didn't introduce a Necromancer class into WoW because there's already a Necromancer class in WoW?
    Blizzard is all about laying the groundwork for things. A big hurdle they would need to work around before the introduction of Shadowlands is that pretty much...all Necromancers are evil. Now we're seeing from Shadowlands and the Maldraxxus that this isn't true. Blizzard would be a fool to not introduce a class next expansion, and I still fully believe that our time in Shadowlands is going to have a huge influence on how death (and the undead) currently works in Azeroth.

    In your conversations with @Ielenia:

    Yes, Paladins wear heavy armor infused with holy magic. Tanking makes sense. Necromancers use magic to empower themselves, so healing doesn't make much sense.
    See above.

    It does matter, because if the DK has a lot of ranged necromantic spells, that gives less space to a Necromancer using those same spells in the same way.
    And yet, Paladins and Priests use holy magic in roughly the same way, Warlocks and Demon Hunters use chaos magic the same way, Shamans, Mages, and Warlocks all use fire magic the same way, Death Knights and Mages use frost magic the same way, etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Then please explain from a gameplay standpoint how a Necromancer spreading AoE nature DoT is going to be any different than a DK disease dealing shadow DoT.
    Your first mistake would be to assume a Necromancer poison spec would be all about dots. Poison can be used in a channeled spray; it's used to burn, bomb, gas, puddle, create oozes, and so on - Diseases do none of these.

    No, the selling point of a Necromancer is a spell caster than can raise undead minions. DKs are already spell casters tha can raise undead minions. No one is pining for a spell caster than can spread poison.
    Within my class concept, I was able to incorporate Skeletal Alchemist and Apothecary minions in addition to ooze minions. All three specs had their individual fans. So again you're wrong. There would be fans of a poison speced Necromancer. Look at Diablo as well.

    Yeah, let's keep pretending that Shadow and Discipline Priest doesn't exist.....
    And you can keep pretending that the only difference that you believe separates Priests and Paladins (shadow magic), couldn't be done the same for Death Knights and Necromancers (nature magic).

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    well since i am bored. i am going to ask some questions for the People that want Necromancer.

    how would you create it without butchering DK and warlock?
    When people think necromancer they think raising the dead, so would all the spec have pets or just one?
    Keep in mind this is Warcraft and i think quite a few people want the D2 style necromancer for WoW which i am not sure fits. (i dont know what the D3 version fights like)
    Refer to my concept and let me know what you think.

    Quick rundown:

    First off, Necromancers would have a healing specialization role which immediately sets them apart from Death Knights and Warlocks. Faithless Necromancers as they would be called (because they don't follow any religious path) would steal blood from their enemies and heal their allies with it. So that leaves us only with 2 specs that need to work differently from DKs/Warlocks.

    My Chemical spec focuses on using dark alchemy abilities to spray their enemies with poisonous gasses, blast with acidic bombs, launch syringes filled with toxins, and cover the ground in puddles of poison. I incorporated the Mad Scientist theme into this spec, so you also have ooze minions and such. That's just a brief description. And the last spec, Undeath, is all about Necromancers wanting to become undead. So much that they gain the ability to shapeshift into other undead creatures and highjack the bodies of both their enemies and their pets. Each spec would have their own undead minions but not permanent and not as diverse as Warlocks.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...cer-Hero-Class

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post

    -Necromancer = The problem with this class is that nearly all it's flavor and spells are already taken by the Death Knight.
    You would have to redesign the Death Knight class in order to make the Necromancer exist.
    Not true. See sig.
    Last edited by Amunrasonther; 2020-12-02 at 04:28 AM.

  16. #1076
    Epic! Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    Appearance in WC3:


    Expansion released:

    With that logic:

    WotLK: Death Knight

    Cata: nothing

    MoP: Monk

    WoD: nothing

    Legion: Demon Hunter

    BfA: nothing

    Shadowlands: uhmmm

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. Wardens are only Night Elves.
    Pre WotLK, Death Knights were only humans (with Orc souls in W2)

    Pre MoP, Monks were only Pandaren.
    Last edited by Hansworst; 2020-12-02 at 05:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  17. #1077
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    All of these magical melee classes have spells, and then melee attacks that deal magical damage. Only a few attacks deal straight physical damage and the Death Knight is no different.
    And the DK has a slew of instant cast spells that deal nothing but magic damage. What's more, it's Necromancy, and they're raising a wide variety of undead minions. So what exactly is the point of a Necromancer class?

    We don't HAVE to have any new classes in future expansions period. The point is, there exists an opening for a true ranged spell caster that utilizes necromancy and the Necromancer class concept is very popular.
    I don't think so. We have a ranged spell caster that specializes in dark and shadow magic. The only difference between a Necromancer and a Warlock is that one raises demons while the other raises the dead. Wouldn't a glyph that turns Warlock demons into undead minions take care of this completely?

    Blood Magic is used to heal, shield, protect, and buff allies. So no, you're 100% wrong here. Using Blood Magic to help allies is found in WoW and could be part of the Necromancer's theme/concept.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=276540...ld#used-by-npc
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=90946/bloodwash
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=24617/blood-funnel
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=169214/vivifying-blood
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=235262/blood-siphon
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=61606/mark-of-blood
    Yeah, most of those look like DK abilities, and I'm not seeing a lot of restoring allies, I'm seeing bizarre stuff like healing enemies by spraying blood all over them.

    WoW lore/NPCs is pretty clear that alchemy, nature magic, poison etc, are all found within Necromancers, but not DKs. It's a significant feature that sets them apart. Necromancer students are literally being taught the skill in Scholomance. This notion of yours that alchemy/poison magic isn't found in the Necromancer class is your opinion, and demonstrably proven false over and over.
    Yes, because DKs skipped the Alchemy part and utilized shadow magic to spread diseases. The point is there are Necromancers, and there are mad scientists. The two are not the same thing. Krick is a necromancer, sure, but not Professor Putricide, or Professor Slate. I can see the notion of creating a Venomancer that utilizes poison magic, but a Necromancer with a spray gun and tossing around poison bombs? That's just silly.

    You're just further highlighting that there's a difference between Necromancers and Death Knights. The two classes share necromancy and themes, but they don't share class concepts. The Necromancer class concept is a light-armored RANGED spell caster that uses necromancy. The Death Knight class concept is a heavy armored, MELEE attacker, that uses necromancy. I really find it funny that you get so hung up on WC3 hero classes and existing in-game Necromancer NPCs when most WC3 heroes have like 2-3? abilities and most Necromancer NPCs in game also have 1-2 abilities and its often Warlock spells. A full fledged Necromancer concept developed by blizzard would only strengthen the differences between Necromancers and Death Knights. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that.
    Well here are some of the WC3 abilities that went into Death Knights:

    Death Coil: Heals the undead, hurts the living. (ranged)
    Death Pact: Absorbs energy from a friendly minion to heal the DK (ranged)
    Unholy Aura: Increases movement speed and regeneration rate
    Animate Dead: Summons multiple undead minions at once.
    Raise Dead: Raises an undead minion
    Unholy Frenzy: Sends a target into a rage, increasing attack rate (ranged)
    Death and Decay: Corrupts the targeted ground, dealing shadow damage in an area (ranged)
    Vampiric Aura: Dealing damage heals the DK and allies
    Unholy Blight: Summons a swarm of undead insects that infects the target with disease (ranged)

    What's the difference?

    Blizzard is all about laying the groundwork for things. A big hurdle they would need to work around before the introduction of Shadowlands is that pretty much...all Necromancers are evil. Now we're seeing from Shadowlands and the Maldraxxus that this isn't true. Blizzard would be a fool to not introduce a class next expansion, and I still fully believe that our time in Shadowlands is going to have a huge influence on how death (and the undead) currently works in Azeroth.
    Except Blizzard has stated that a new class must match the theme of the expansion. Are you saying that we're going to have another death expansion after this one?

    And yet, Paladins and Priests use holy magic in roughly the same way, Warlocks and Demon Hunters use chaos magic the same way, Shamans, Mages, and Warlocks all use fire magic the same way, Death Knights and Mages use frost magic the same way, etc etc
    You're talking specs and single magic schools. Death Knights and Necromancers would share the entire class theme.

    Your first mistake would be to assume a Necromancer poison spec would be all about dots. Poison can be used in a channeled spray; it's used to burn, bomb, gas, puddle, create oozes, and so on - Diseases do none of these.
    But a Death Knight could. A DK could have it's ghoul channel spray diseased bile on a target, there's a new talent called Hellchains that burns a victim in-between the DK and it's pet. A minion could burst into a gas, or a puddle, and the DK has created oozes in the past. So why not just give it to the existing DK class?

    And you can keep pretending that the only difference that you believe separates Priests and Paladins (shadow magic), couldn't be done the same for Death Knights and Necromancers (nature magic).
    Well like I said, Paladins can never do Shadow magic because it goes against their class concept. However, a DK can do plague damage which includes nature. So yeah, that's a big difference between the two.

    Listen, I'm not trying to poo poo on your idea here, I'm just saying that the difference you carved out for the Necromancer is simply forced, and its forced because you're purposely trying to avoid the 900 lb Gorilla in the room; the existing classes eating away at your design space.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    With that logic:

    WotLK: Death Knight

    Cata: nothing

    MoP: Monk

    WoD: nothing

    Legion: Demon Hunter

    BfA: nothing

    Shadowlands: uhmmm
    Which is kind of the point; In Blizzard's view, no class concept fit the theme of Shadowlands, an expansion about death.


    Pre WotLK, Death Knights were only humans (with Orc souls in W2)
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Thane_Korth%27azz

    Pre MoP, Monks were only Pandaren.
    Even before their formal introduction as a playable class in Mists of Pandaria, several monk NPCs and mobs already existed, albeit with different gear and abilities than those playable now. Examples of such old-school monks include the gnome Lefty, the blood elf Eramas Brightblaze, Condemned Monks, Scarlet Monks, Crimson Monks (now Risen Monks), Auchenai Monks, and Argent Monks. Note that some of them have been updated since, but pictures of their older appearances are still archived on their respective pages.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Monk

  18. #1078
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, because DKs skipped the Alchemy part and utilized shadow magic to spread diseases. The point is there are Necromancers, and there are mad scientists. The two are not the same thing.
    1)Once again you had stroke? in fantasy world of warcraft where Necromancy is forbidden , and everyone says to mages :
    "Beware to not delve into Necromancy!"
    and of course some of these mad scientists (who study forbidden things with some mad idea behind) alike , just went to DO IT.

    The two are not the same thing YES , but one ->LEADS to second one
    (normal citizens no all about rising zombies or becoming a lich to spend eternity as monstrosity)




    2) Engineer Gazlowe , The Tinker (where Tinker is just title for best and most profund engineer among goblins and gnomes)

    To make Tinker playable class you need get rid of engineering in same way like they did with first aid.

    Its funny when you say that Necromancer is Death knight and they are same ( while its two different units with different background) , while Engineer and Tinker its same guy but you say that they different .... its just definition of Insanity.
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2020-12-02 at 07:10 AM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac Necromancer,RuneMaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Dragonsworn,Alchemist,Baker,Bard

  19. #1079
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, WC3 characters. Not WC3 the game.
    The point still stands. World of Warcraft does not exist to "push Warcraft 3 characters".

    Again, we don't need to understand the "why" to recognize that it is happening.
    Oh, we definitely need to know the "why" if we are to use it as a rule for class creation.

    Then please explain from a gameplay standpoint how a Necromancer spreading AoE nature DoT is going to be any different than a DK disease dealing shadow DoT.
    The same way in which a priest healing with holy magic is different than a paladin healing with holy magic. In the same way that a warlock dealing damage with fire is different than a mage dealing damage with fire. In the way that a warlock spreading shadow DoTs is different than a shadow priest spreading shadow dots. Etc, etc.

    No, the selling point of a Necromancer is a spell caster than can raise undead minions.
    I'll repeat: Teriz, please don't try to speak for other people. You don't get to tell us what the selling points of the necromancer are. That is so condescendingly arrogant of you. And it borders on trolling, at this point.

    You don't get to say what is a selling point for us. By that same argument, I can assert that the "selling point" of the tinker is technology, and we have engineering already, so we don't need a tech class. Because engineering gives you access to technology already.

    Yeah, let's keep pretending that Shadow and Discipline Priest doesn't exist.....
    Who said anything about them not existing? I simply pointed out that your logic dictates that "healing with holy magic" is somehow fundamentally different" than "healing with holy magic", considering your argument was that the paladin and priest "do different things". You cannot deny that there is one-hundred percent theme overlap with the holy/pious theme between priests and paladins. And priests using shadow magic is meaningless because you also assert as meaningless the idea of the necromancer having access to a spell type that the death knight does not.

    If you say so.
    For someone who loves to assert their own claims by basically saying "because I say so", you sure love to dismiss what other people say with "if you say so", don't you?

    Where's the Tinker's claw pack in Engineering?
    I'll repeat, word for word, what I said that you dishonestly ignored:
    "Abilities are irrelevant considering I was talking about the concepts themselves, and the engineering profession adheres to a 'T' the lore description of the WC3 tinker hero regarding technology malfunctions."
    I am talking about the concept. I specifically mentioned the propensity for malfunctions. At no point I mentioned the claw pack, or that the engineering profession encompasses every single minute detail about the Warcraft 3 unit.

    And within all 3 expansion classes.
    Nope. Your own mind, only. Because you haven't proven that this "pedigree" you speak of matters one iota for class design.

    But the expansion classes do, and the next class we're getting is an expansion class.
    Then you should prove beyond shadow of doubt that the expansion classes go through a different iteration process than the vanilla classes. Which you cannot.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  20. #1080
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    To make Tinker playable class you need get rid of engineering in same way like they did with first aid.
    No you don't. What made first aid obsolete is that they gave every class the ability to heal themselves while questing, making first aid pointless.

    Its funny when you say that Necromancer is Death knight and they are same ( while its two different units with different background) , while Engineer and Tinker its same guy but you say that they different .... its just definition of Insanity.
    I say that because the Death Knight possesses the Necromancer's abilities from WC3, and is in fact a Necromancer in of itself. Meanwhile, the engineering profession contains none of the abilities or attributes of the Tinker hero from HotS or WC3.

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