1. #1901
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Being a champion is purely a lore thing when it comes to the campaign. There are PLENTY of NPCs that are tinkers and not champions. So your comment about the champion is quite literally invalid.
    Okay, but do you have examples of Tinkers from EVERY race? That was your original argument.

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, but do you have examples of Tinkers from EVERY race? That was your original argument.
    Grand Artificer Romuul. Pathaelon the Calculator. Various blood elf NPCs I'm not gonna list all the names of. Oculeth. Fineous Darkvire.

    Just a few examples. Though I'm sure you're going to bend over backwards to say they're not tinkers purely because they're not gnomes or goblins.

  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No, the Tinker abilities are already present in WoW. The Claw Pack would be an attribute to the class, like Runeblades with DKs, Tattoos on Demon Hunters, or the garb of the Brewmaster.
    So basically a transmog? There is no weapon category called runeblades in the actual game. There are weapons with dk runes on it which a DK can transmog. Tattoos are a purely cosmetic and optional option for DHs and the garb of the Brewmaster is a transmog set. Are you capable of understanding that you argue against your own point

    I'm just pointing out how critical Metamorphosis was to the DH class concept. Again, it was so important that only one class could have it.
    It was also critical for Warlocks. The whole Green Fire Quest Chain revolved on it and it was the core of the Demonology Warlocks rotation and gameplay. And in the end, they were willing to change warlocks just to make DHs still happen. Again, thats kind of an argument against you?

    Considering that the orientation of the concept went from ranged to melee, it's far more than just a graphical change, it was a mechanical change as well. Again, totally absent from WoW until the DH class appeared.
    Doesn't Illidan engage in melee combat as a boss while using methamorphosis? Seems like Blizz is perfectly fine changing class concepts to be closer to their iconic hero, who had guessed.

    [quote]"Summon skeletons" wasn't a DK ability. Demon Hunters transforming into a hulking melee demon was a departure from the ranged creature we had grown to know and love since WC3. You can call this bogus if you wish, but those are the facts.

    Summon undeads kind of was a DK ability

    Uh, according to lore we had Chen Stormstout in Durator before WoW even began. In addition, we had an Orc who encountered Chen and whom was taught brewmaster stuff by him. It's the opening quest of Chens Wandering Kegs. In addition, we had the Draenei Monk trainer who was present when the Exodar crashed and helped heal and train the crash survivors.

    Additionally we had Brewmasters and Monks in WoW long before MoP. The point is that those Brewmasters and Monks were clearly not the Brewmasters and Monks who form the WoW Monk class. The same could be said for all those "Tinkers" and "Tinkerers" currently in the game.
    That is actually not an argument


    [quote]It's only a problem if you think Maghar, a primitive race of wolf-riders should be part of a technological class, and them being in the class is worth dumping a concept that has been a major part of the class concept since the original hero in WC3.[quote]

    Gnome Tinkers also don't use claw packs. Gnome Tinkers are also technologically closer to Draeneis, with a higher emphasis on laser weapons. So you are argueing in favor of making Tinkers a horde only, goblin only class?

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because based on precedent, Blizzard brings all the aesthetics and abilities from their WC3 concepts into the expansion classes.
    For an aesthetic piece we've only ever seen on Goblins? How do we know it has to do with the class and not just the Goblin race when we have Gnome and Dwarf Tinkers in WoW without a claw pack?

    What problems? I’m not seeing any problems with the claw pack at all.
    The problem being that you're arbitrarily and unnecessarily limiting Races with a technological background. I don't think a Clawpack necessarily fits Gnomes or Vulpera, and keeping it out of the Tinker class would work best for all potential races. It keeps the focus on the mechs instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  5. #1905
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What problems? I’m not seeing any problems with the claw pack at all.
    The fact that you like them makes you look worse. They look stupid.

  6. #1906
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Grand Artificer Romuul. Pathaelon the Calculator. Various blood elf NPCs I'm not gonna list all the names of. Oculeth. Fineous Darkvire.

    Just a few examples. Though I'm sure you're going to bend over backwards to say they're not tinkers purely because they're not gnomes or goblins.
    Well why would you think that Oculeth for example is a Tinker in the same vein as Mekkatorque or Blackfuse? He’s a telemancer, which means he specializes in portal magic.....

    Or Pathealon the calculator... Why?

  7. #1907
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's a fine opinion to have, but we have Blizzard's statements on the matter, so that's that.
    No, these are simply fact about development which may explain blizzards choice not to include a new class and they still don't devalue Dark Ranger as a potential new class. And by god, they do nothing to make your point, as there is currently nothing indicating Blizz being interested in creating Tinkers as a class.

    This is entirely your opinion.



    Here's the opinion of the forum on the Tinker versus the more "popular" Necromancer concept;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game
    Really? A poll with limited participation on an inofficial fansite? Let me quite honest, I just don't give a shit about polls on inofficial fansites where half the votes for Tinkers are probably you under various aliases. I mean, you seem so obsessive that I am perfectly willing to believe that you would do that. Also, inofficial fansites are not an indicator of what Blizz is going to do. The fact that they seem to be highly uninterested in developing stories for Gnomes and Goblins is though.

    Again, nothing more than your opinion. Thank you for sharing it.
    Nope. It is actually an objective fact. We can look at the numbers of mechagnome and goblin characters and then take a guess on the goblins on how many actually never did the questchain and then again on how many skipped through the story of the quest chains. Which makes it unlikely that more than a small percentage of players ever actually played the storyline. The majority of people who are aware of the stories are probably people who read it up on Wowhead.

    But then again, its you. And for you, everything that isn't agreeing with you is just a false opinion. Kinda like how the Quartering acts.

    Well considering that there are story beats still left unresolved, the fact that Undermine was an important part in the development of vanilla WoW, and there's multiple looming threats that would require technological power, I think Gazlowe has a rather bright future in WoW.
    Which is your opinion. The facts state that Gazlowe is currently a c-list npc with no consequent involvement in the narratve and not even an appereance in a cinematic or an unique model. He is literally just a random gnome in a classic transmog. And there are kind of no story beats involving the Goblins which seem to be anywhere close the main story and not a single threat looming which would require technological power, which outside of Draenei technology and Iron Horde Technology is in every single case depicted as inferior to magic.


    1. The last three expansion classes were from WC3.
    2. Tinker has the exact same background as the previous expansion classes.
    3. None of the Tinker's abilities exist in engineering or the existing classes.
    4. The Tinker hero is based on Warcraft lore.

    It would seem that those facts drive people a little crazy. I don't know why.
    Because you act like an entitled ass about it. It is fully on you and only you. You come off as if there is something deeply wrong with you and your personality. Few people is denying that tinkers are a potential candidate for a new class. The problem is solely you harassing and belittling everyone who is not aggreeing with your personal hype train or slightly disagreeing with your fantasies. You are the one creating drama here, the only one. You act like such a horrible, obnoxious and entitled person that I can't see anyone actually wanting to spend time with you. You seem incapable of the slightest act of self-reflection and noticing, that your horrible shitty attitude turns people hostile towards the concept itself out of pure spite, because they hate you and don't want you getting what you wish for, just because you act so horribly and toxic towards everyone who isn't hyping your ass off.

    Another fact lost of some people is that Blizzard has traditionally kept out certain aspects of upcoming classes until those classes appear in WoW. For example, despite the various Monks in Azeroth, there was no Pandaren-based Monk character in WoW until MoP. We did get a hint with the Pandaren Monk companion pet, but that's it. None of the Brewmaster's abilities were present in WoW. In the case of the Tinker, the abilities are present in WoW, but it would make sense that there is no claw pack.
    They didn't though. Death Knights and Demon Hunters were common concepts for enemies during all of WoW, they just broadened their skillset to account for multiple specs. This is literally you conspiracy thinking. Not to forget that we have no case of Gnomes utilizing claw packs.

    Uh what? The point is that a consistent 20% mount speed boost is infinitely more beneficial than a cooldown.
    Which is really only the case when you are a world quest hero, who is predominantly doing open world content. That comment actually prove that you aren't even in the position to ask for a new class or participate in any fanfiction of how a class should look like, because you play the game on the lowest possible level. Literally fighting world quest enemies with engineer gadgets would be enough for you to play out your fantasy. If you would do any content outside of maybe normal dungeons, you would know how stupid that sentence make you look like.

    Which is the basis for the entire WoW Monk class.
    No? It literally is not? Monks aren't even using weapons in their animations? Lol l2p git gud?

    [quote]It wouldn't take up a back slot, since it's an ability, not an item.

    It isn't though. And Gnome tinkers as well as most ingame goblin tinkers traditionally don't utilize claw packs.

  8. #1908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    So basically a transmog? There is no weapon category called runeblades in the actual game. There are weapons with dk runes on it which a DK can transmog. Tattoos are a purely cosmetic and optional option for DHs and the garb of the Brewmaster is a transmog set. Are you capable of understanding that you argue against your own point
    I was talking more along the lines of the Runeforge, which allows DKs to affix runes to their weapons, but okay. There's also the Keg smash ability within the Monk class.

    It was also critical for Warlocks. The whole Green Fire Quest Chain revolved on it and it was the core of the Demonology Warlocks rotation and gameplay. And in the end, they were willing to change warlocks just to make DHs still happen. Again, thats kind of an argument against you?

    Doesn't Illidan engage in melee combat as a boss while using methamorphosis? Seems like Blizz is perfectly fine changing class concepts to be closer to their iconic hero, who had guessed.
    While I can't verify that (because I don't feel like watching old videos of Black Temple), that changes Warlocks having ranged Metamorphosis how exactly?

    Summon undeads kind of was a DK ability
    Animate Dead was the DK ability, and it didn't summon skeletons.


    That is actually not an argument
    Actually it is. Sorry you don't get it.

    Gnome Tinkers also don't use claw packs....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    No, these are simply fact about development which may explain blizzards choice not to include a new class and they still don't devalue Dark Ranger as a potential new class. And by god, they do nothing to make your point, as there is currently nothing indicating Blizz being interested in creating Tinkers as a class.
    I suppose denial isn't just a river in Egypt....

    Really? A poll with limited participation on an inofficial fansite? Let me quite honest, I just don't give a shit about polls on inofficial fansites where people disagree with my opinion about a class I clearly dislike....
    Fixed it for you.

    Nope. It is actually an objective fact.
    Nah, it's an opinion. Sorry, I simply have no interest in arguing opinions.

  9. #1909
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I was talking more along the lines of the Runeforge, which allows DKs to affix runes to their weapons, but okay. There's also the Keg smash ability within the Monk class.
    Runeforges are mere weapon enchants though. They aren't even necessary to play the class, even though not using them is stupid and by far suboptimal. But you can use all of your abilities without a runeweapon, which doesn't exists in the game, despite traditionally Death Knights relying on their vampiric runeblades for their powers. They are flavor. The runeforge argument would be one that maybe Tinkers could have access to superior versions of engineering enchants. And the keg smash is basically monks pulling a keg out of nowhere and throw at enemies. It isn't really an argument for a permanent claw pack. At most a spell where a claw pack shows up temporarily, or maybe a cooldown. But then again, claw packs aren't even seen among Gnome and Mechagnome tinkers, it is a goblin only concept.

    And actually, outside of the gimmicky robot squirrels, gnome tinkers aren't conceptually that far away from draenei artificers. If I remember correctly, Mekkatorque but also that Manastorm from De Other Side are using many energy based weapons.

    While I can't verify that (because I don't feel like watching old videos of Black Temple), that changes Warlocks having ranged Metamorphosis how exactly?
    I'm pretty sure that Illidan still used melee combat in this form. Also Warlock Metamorphosis was actually rather close range based. It was still caster based because warlocks are simply caster, but the playstyle forced them into close battle during the transformation. I could be wrong, but I think most spells even had a closer range than their counterparts.

    Animate Dead was the DK ability, and it didn't summon skeletons.
    Yeah and DKs are also generally not using skeletons, outside of one gimicky optional talent. So Necromancers could easily be more skeleton based.

    Actually it is. Sorry you don't get it.
    It isn't. There were no playable style monks in the game prior to MoP. Tinkers on the other hand are in the game, similarily to DKs and DHs, all that blizz would need to do would be to improve and streamline their skillsets.

    Pic doesn't works dude.

  10. #1910
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No, the Tinker abilities are already present in WoW.
    And yet not a single claw pack...

    The Claw Pack would be an attribute to the class, like Runeblades with DKs, Tattoos on Demon Hunters, or the garb of the Brewmaster.
    In other words: a transmog feature, not a class feature. Because literally all that you mentioned are nothing but cosmetics.

    I'm just pointing out how critical Metamorphosis was to the DH class concept. Again, it was so important that only one class could have it.
    Which, again, is irrelevant to the conversation here. Hence: red herring.

    Considering that the orientation of the concept went from ranged to melee, it's far more than just a graphical change, it was a mechanical change as well. Again, totally absent from WoW until the DH class appeared.
    Two things:
    • First, it's a minimal mechanic change, that was done to align itself with the fact the character is melee. Makes no sense to make it a ranged ability since the character would be in melee all the time.
    • The demon hunters in the Black Temple courtyard were melee demons. Varedis, for example.

    "Summon skeletons" wasn't a DK ability.
    Skeleton, ghouls, doesn't matter. It was indisputable evidence that the death knights could already raise the dead since vanilla WoW.

    Demon Hunters transforming into a hulking melee demon was a departure from the ranged creature we had grown to know and love since WC3.
    "Known and love", what a joke. And, again, going from kind of ranged to melee is a minimal change done to keep the ability in line with the fact it's a melee class.

    You can call this bogus if you wish, but those are the facts.
    Facts that do nothing to help you narrative.

    Uh, according to lore we had Chen Stormstout in Durator before WoW even began.
    We are talking about what was presented in the game. And Chen was not a monk in the lore at the time.

    In addition, we had an Orc who encountered Chen and whom was taught brewmaster stuff by him. It's the opening quest of Chens Wandering Kegs.
    Actual brewing, not monk stuff. He learned how to make drinks. Chen was not a monk in the lore at the time.

    In addition, we had the Draenei Monk trainer who was present when the Exodar crashed and helped heal and train the crash survivors.
    A retroactive addition. We are talking about what was presented in the game.

    Additionally we had Brewmasters and Monks in WoW long before MoP.

    The point is that those Brewmasters and Monks were clearly not the Brewmasters and Monks who form the WoW Monk class.
    The only "brewmasters" we had in WoW prior to MoP were not monks. They were nothing but cooks, specialized in brewing beers. And none of the monks existing at the time even resembled the ones from MoP.

    The same could be said for all those "Tinkers" and "Tinkerers" currently in the game.
    No. No, we could not. Because you constantly reference characters that already exist in the game like Blackfuse, Gazlowe and Mekkatorque. There were absolutely zero pandaren monks in WoW before MoP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's only a problem if you think Maghar, a primitive race of wolf-riders should be part of a technological class,
    What's the problem with the Mag'har being tinkers, considering you see absolutely no problem at all that a primitive race of hyena-riders being tinkers, namely the vulpera.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Vulpera are a new race, use the Goblin skeleton, and are the perfect size.
    Which has nothing to do with the claim that Mag'har should be excluded because they are primitive, while allowing the vulpera who are just as primitive.

    They also created a class of gunners who use alchemical bombs.
    And the mag'har "created a class" of gunners who use actual bombs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because based on precedent, Blizzard brings all the aesthetics and abilities from their WC3 concepts into the expansion classes.
    Where is my mounted combat as a death knight?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  11. #1911
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet not a single claw pack...
    If the Tinker is implemented, the Claw Pack will be part of it.


    In other words: a transmog feature, not a class feature. Because literally all that you mentioned are nothing but cosmetics.
    Again, within the concept of the Tinker, the Claw Pack acts as the weapons platform where it can store its weaponry and gadgets. Also the Claw Pack can transform into a mech via Rabo-Goblin.


    Which, again, is irrelevant to the conversation here. Hence: red herring.
    It isn't irrelevant because the conversation revolved around which attribute was most important to the DH concept. Clearly that attribute was the Metamorphosis ability.

    Two things:
    • First, it's a minimal mechanic change, that was done to align itself with the fact the character is melee. Makes no sense to make it a ranged ability since the character would be in melee all the time.
    • The demon hunters in the Black Temple courtyard were melee demons. Varedis, for example.
    There's nothing minimal about converting to melee from ranged. The WC3 Meta demon could lob vollies of fireballs. The Warlock Meta demon followed suit. The Demon Hunter meta demon doesn't really operate like that at all, and operates more along the lines of the HotS meta demon. That is a pretty fundamental shift in the design of metamorphosis over time.

    Skeleton, ghouls, doesn't matter. It was indisputable evidence that the death knights could already raise the dead since vanilla WoW.
    Yet it still isn't the same ability as animate dead. It isn't the same in name or function.

    We are talking about what was presented in the game. And Chen was not a monk in the lore at the time.
    Really? What makes him a Monk now and not a Monk back then? Blizzard calling him one?

    Quick question; Why would Blizzard merge a non-Monk concept into a Monk class concept?


    Actual brewing, not monk stuff. He learned how to make drinks. Chen was not a monk in the lore at the time.
    I know that. I'm talking about the fact that Chen did in fact exist in lore, we just didn't see him in WoW at all until MoP. Just like Claw Packs exist in lore, we just won't see them in WoW until the Tinker class is introduced.

    The only "brewmasters" we had in WoW prior to MoP were not monks. They were nothing but cooks, specialized in brewing beers. And none of the monks existing at the time even resembled the ones from MoP.
    But Chen Stormstout was clearly a martial artist, as shown by his campaign with Rexxar.

    No. No, we could not. Because you constantly reference characters that already exist in the game like Blackfuse, Gazlowe and Mekkatorque. There were absolutely zero pandaren monks in WoW before MoP.
    Again, because there are some attributes and abilities that Blizzard holds back until the class is introduced. Clearly the Claw Pack is one of those attributes and abilities.

    Where is my mounted combat as a death knight?
    Mounted combat would be game-breaking, which is why you get "On a Pale Horse" instead.

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The main reason being that engineering (profession) has nothing to do with the Tinker class.

    The other reason being that what the champion (i.e. the player) does has nothing to do with what everyone else of their race does. In other words, you being a Troll Shaman who picks up the engineering profession doesn’t mean that the entire troll race also picked up the engineering profession.

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    The Vulpera are a new race, use the Goblin skeleton, and are the perfect size. They also created a class of gunners who use alchemical bombs. The Maghar couldn’t do that with the remnants of Iron Horde tech.

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    There’s plenty of examples of primitive Priests, Monks, Mages, Shaman, etc. I’d wager though that the majority of Mag’har are Warriors.



    The point is that Mag’har Orcs aren’t advanced enough to be Tinkers. That pic of Gazlowe’s claw pack backs that assessment up. I really couldn’t picture an Orc with something like that on their back.
    No it doesn't mean that the entire race has picked up engineering.

    But the same goes for monks, 'the entire race' of humans, gnomes, tauren etc didn't take up pandaren martial arts yet they're able to learn it.

    And if they can learn to be engineers, why not tinkers? What about tinkers would restrict the race selection that wouldn't also theoretically apply to the engineering profession, which is centered around building and using gnomish and goblin technology?

    There's no reason a tinker class would need to be restricted to gnome/goblin. It's something individuals from any race could learn with enough study. Just like the engineering profession.

    Engineering DOES have something to do with tinkers: they're both technology based around the same two races that Tinkers would theoretically be. There is no meaningful distinction currently presented in the lore separating 'engineers' and 'tinkers' in any meaningful way.

  13. #1913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    No it doesn't mean that the entire race has picked up engineering.

    But the same goes for monks, 'the entire race' of humans, gnomes, tauren etc didn't take up pandaren martial arts yet they're able to learn it.

    And if they can learn to be engineers, why not tinkers? What about tinkers would restrict the race selection that wouldn't also theoretically apply to the engineering profession, which is centered around building and using gnomish and goblin technology?
    We had Human, Gnome, Undead, Blood Elf, and Draenei Monks, and considering that all races can be warriors, there should be no problem with any race being a monk.

    Technology is different. Every race doesn't openly embrace technology, and every race doesn't fit a class based on Goblin/Gnome technology. Also once again, just because the champion (i.e. the player) can access every profession and learn it doesn't mean that everyone in every race can learn any profession to expert level.

    There's no reason a tinker class would need to be restricted to gnome/goblin. It's something individuals from any race could learn with enough study. Just like the engineering profession.
    See above.

    Engineering DOES have something to do with tinkers: they're both technology based around the same two races that Tinkers would theoretically be. There is no meaningful distinction currently presented in the lore separating 'engineers' and 'tinkers' in any meaningful way.
    Other than the devices associated with the Tinker don't exist in the profession, and that the devices the Tinker employs are more advanced than the devices found in Engineering. I would argue that profession engineering is amateur engineering while the Tinker class is superhuman level engineering.

  14. #1914
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well why would you think that Oculeth for example is a Tinker in the same vein as Mekkatorque or Blackfuse? He’s a telemancer, which means he specializes in portal magic.....

    Or Pathealon the calculator... Why?
    Pathelealon is the leader of the Mechanar and oversees all the engineering happening in there. Also, Oculeth uses magitech which is a form of tinkering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We had Human, Gnome, Undead, Blood Elf, and Draenei Monks, and considering that all races can be warriors, there should be no problem with any race being a monk.

    Technology is different. Every race doesn't openly embrace technology, and every race doesn't fit a class based on Goblin/Gnome technology. Also once again, just because the champion (i.e. the player) can access every profession and learn it doesn't mean that everyone in every race can learn any profession to expert level.



    See above.



    Other than the devices associated with the Tinker don't exist in the profession, and that the devices the Tinker employs are more advanced than the devices found in Engineering. I would argue that profession engineering is amateur engineering while the Tinker class is superhuman level engineering.
    Technology is 100% not different. You are literally the only person who thinks that. There actually is no reason other races can't be tinkers. Your only reason is that they would use goblin/gnome tech(which is a headcanon and can't be 100% confirmed) and that's not even a good reason. Being a tinker doesn't require being an inventor. It only requires knowing how to utilize technology better than other people.

    There is 100% no canon lore that says there is any major difference between a tinker and an engineer. As a matter of fact, numerous people have pointed out how they are not the same but you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept anyone's points but your own.

  15. #1915
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Pathelealon is the leader of the Mechanar and oversees all the engineering happening in there. Also, Oculeth uses magitech which is a form of tinkering.
    That's great, but his entire ability set is arcane-based. Also while I can agree that magi tech is a form of technology, it isn't the same technology utilized by Goblins/Gnomes and wouldn't be utilized by the Tinker class.

    Technology is 100% not different. You are literally the only person who thinks that. There actually is no reason other races can't be tinkers. Your only reason is that they would use goblin/gnome tech(which is a headcanon and can't be 100% confirmed) and that's not even a good reason. Being a tinker doesn't require being an inventor. It only requires knowing how to utilize technology better than other people.
    I've already discussed this reason; There are races in WoW who completely shun technology, and that would be your Tauren, Nightelves, Trolls, etc. That's the first barrier. The next barrier are the races who prefer magic over mechanical technology. That would be the Nightborne, Blood Elves, Draenei. Then you have the races that are indifferent towards technology but still haven't really embraced it as something that matches magic and brute strength. That would be your Humans and Orcs. Then we have the races who fully embrace technology, and that's pretty much only Goblins and Gnomes.

    As for why it would be Goblin/Gnome tech only; The exact same reason the Monk class only uses Pandaren-themed martial arts. It was the Pandaren Brewmaster, and in this case we have the Goblin Tinker.

    Simple.

    There is 100% no canon lore that says there is any major difference between a tinker and an engineer. As a matter of fact, numerous people have pointed out how they are not the same but you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept anyone's points but your own.
    The Claw Pack is canon lore, and it's not in the engineering profession. That's a pretty major difference right there.

  16. #1916
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the Tinker is implemented, the Claw Pack will be part of it.
    In your biased opinion. Again, we have 15+ years of technology constantly being improved and advanced... and yet claw packs have never been seen, at all, since the founding of Durotar. For some reason, Gazlowe apparently retired his to never use it again, right?

    Again, within the concept of the Tinker, the Claw Pack acts as the weapons platform where it can store its weaponry and gadgets. Also the Claw Pack can transform into a mech via Rabo-Goblin.
    Weaponry and gadgets? You do know we're talking about a game in which our characters can hold over 120 plate chest armor pieces and not show even a single bulge on their pockets, right? A game in which a demon hunter's wings are not shown until they spread them out to glide?

    It isn't irrelevant because the conversation revolved around which attribute was most important to the DH concept. Clearly that attribute was the Metamorphosis ability.
    It's irrelevant because we're not talking about who owns/owned the ability. We're talking about such important characteristics being shown by NPCs of that group. The fact that warlocks once had that ability is immaterial, as demon hunters NPCs still had the metamorphosis skill, way before Legion.

    There's nothing minimal about converting to melee from ranged. The WC3 Meta demon could lob vollies of fireballs. The Warlock Meta demon followed suit.
    We're talking about a RTS game. There is not an issue at all in giving a melee character a ranged attack. But it is completely game-changing to give a melee class in WoW a ranged toolkit. It would change the class' gameplay completely while in metamorphosis form. Again: making the metamorphosis form melee in WoW is inconsequential because the demon hunter concept was not defined by its ability to attack at range while in meta form. It was defined by the ability to change into a demon.

    Yet it still isn't the same ability as animate dead. It isn't the same in name or function.
    I never said it's the same ability. I said it doesn't matter if it's a skeleton or a ghoul because raising a skeleton demonstrates that the class has retained its ability to raise the dead in vanilla WoW.

    Really? What makes him a Monk now and not a Monk back then? Blizzard calling him one?
    The fact that he was never addressed as a monk before MoP? The fact that he had no spoken lines about monkhood or martial arts back in Warcraft 3? The fact that his entire storyline in Warcraft 3 revolved purely around collecting herbs to make drinks?

    Quick question; Why would Blizzard merge a non-Monk concept into a Monk class concept?
    Flavor, and passing similarity, considering "drunken martial arts" is a thing that exists in fiction.

    I know that. I'm talking about the fact that Chen did in fact exist in lore, we just didn't see him in WoW at all until MoP. Just like Claw Packs exist in lore, we just won't see them in WoW until the Tinker class is introduced.
    The difference is that Chen was never shown in the game. However, Gazlowe, i.e. the goblin wearing a claw pack in WC3, has existed in the game since day one, but has never been seen with a claw pack in the game, whatsoever, in these sixteen years of WoW.

    But Chen Stormstout was clearly a martial artist, as shown by his campaign with Rexxar.
    He never did martial arts. His entire storyline in WC3 was collecting herbs to make drinks. He literally asks to accompany Rexxar so he could find more herbs. You can see it here: https://youtu.be/uOinNZGWxa0?t=323

    Again, because there are some attributes and abilities that Blizzard holds back until the class is introduced. Clearly the Claw Pack is one of those attributes and abilities.
    No, it's not "clearly". Blizzard has never held back in representing the important characteristics of the concepts: death knights could raise the dead, and demon hunters could transform into demons. The sole exception of this is the monk, because the pandaren monk has literally not existed in Azeroth outside of Pandaria and the Wandering Isle. The tinker NPCs, however, have existed all around Azeroth since day one. Mekkatorque and Gazlowe, for example. The latter being an actual owner of a claw pack... but was never seen with one.

    Mounted combat would be game-breaking, which is why you get "On a Pale Horse" instead.
    Why would it be game-breaking? Have you seen it to know it would be game-breaking? I mean, we had an expansion feature that allowed us to fight while mounted during Legion, and that did not break the game.
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  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's great, but his entire ability set is arcane-based. Also while I can agree that magi tech is a form of technology, it isn't the same technology utilized by Goblins/Gnomes and wouldn't be utilized by the Tinker class.



    I've already discussed this reason; There are races in WoW who completely shun technology, and that would be your Tauren, Nightelves, Trolls, etc. That's the first barrier. The next barrier are the races who prefer magic over mechanical technology. That would be the Nightborne, Blood Elves, Draenei. Then you have the races that are indifferent towards technology but still haven't really embraced it as something that matches magic and brute strength. That would be your Humans and Orcs. Then we have the races who fully embrace technology, and that's pretty much only Goblins and Gnomes.

    As for why it would be Goblin/Gnome tech only; The exact same reason the Monk class only uses Pandaren-themed martial arts. It was the Pandaren Brewmaster, and in this case we have the Goblin Tinker.

    Simple.



    The Claw Pack is canon lore, and it's not in the engineering profession. That's a pretty major difference right there.
    Everything you just said is LITERALLY headcanon. Saying magitech isn't tinkering is literally just you moving the goalposts.....again. Regardless of what your biased(and wrong) opinions are, the NPCs I listed are tinkers.

    As for races that shun technology, one of those races are Vulpera. Mag'har do NOT shun technology. Also, just because draenei use crystals instead of steampunk nonsense, doesn't mean they're not tinkers. That's just more of your headcanon. the only races I could not see as tinkers from a lore standpoint are trolls, night elves, tauren, vulpera, and pandaren. That's it. There is 100% no lore stating that it would have to be gnome/goblin tech. Furthermore, there is no lore stating other races would refuse to use that tech.

    Claw pack isn't canon. Show me where it's talked about in the ACTUAL LORE and not just nonsense like "Well goblins use it in WC3!" disregarding they stopped using them in WoW.

  18. #1918
    The monk class is explicitly tied to the Pandaren culture. It is not a generic monk, and some of the monks pre MOP were retconned to be taught by Pandaren, such as the scarlet crusade ones. It doesn't matter if other races have styles of monks that are different, they have nothing to do with the class. The monk class we have is a not a generic monk class, it is explicitly and deeply tied to the Pandaren specifically. And yet, despite Pandaren having been very reclusive and rare to see until MOP, all races except lightforged are able to be monks.

    Goblin and gnomish engineering has been out in the open far longer. There's no reason members of other races couldn't pick it up. Nor do I think it's fair to just say Tinker stuff is 'more advanced.' Engineers can make items that teleport you to other planets. They can make robots and mechanical mounts. If anything the things engineers can make in game are far more impressive than the WC 3 Tinker unit.

    Just as any race can learn engineering any race could learn tinkers. It may not be part of their culture, but again monks/martial arts were not part of Tauren or Dwarf or Gnome or Goblin culture, but it was taught to them. We already have engineering that can be taught to any race. Tinkers then are not a huge stretch. If a dwarf or undead or tauren can build a rocket, a robot, a teleporter to another planet etc, there's no reason they couldn't theoretically build a claw pack or anything else the WC 3 tinkers did.

    And WoW doesn't make any sort of hard distinction. The only real difference at the end of the day would be that engineers build all sorts of stuff and tinkers would be building things more for direct combat. They're not any more or less inventors than engineers are.

    And given how long the goblins and gnomes have been parts of their factions and their technology has been in the world, along with the possibility of gnome/goblin tinkers potentially being willing to train people from other races, there's really no requirement to restrict this potential class. Especialyl wince unlike demon hunters, the origin of the class wouldn't need to be tied to a specific npc at a specific point in time. There is no Illidan of Tinkers really.

    And all of this is assuming that a Tinker class would be exclusively goblin/gnomish tech anyway. There's always the possibility that, just as brewmaster was changed to be one part of a greater class, the tinker side of tech could be incorporated into a wider tech themed class where the goblin/gnome aspect is just one spec etc.

    Blizzard has total freedom of how to approach the idea if they do it. Is it possible they COULD choose to go in a race restricted direction? Sure. They could. But they wouldn't need to retcon or change anything to have other races. They could just have a faction of gnomes/goblins working together and sharing their knoweldge with up and coming tinkers for whatever motivation fits the expansion they'd be added in.

  19. #1919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In your biased opinion. Again, we have 15+ years of technology constantly being improved and advanced... and yet claw packs have never been seen, at all, since the founding of Durotar. For some reason, Gazlowe apparently retired his to never use it again, right?
    Like I said, in every case there is an aspect of a future class that Blizzard holds back before implementation. Again, if you have an aspect that shows up in every Warcraft medium except WoW, then it stands to reason that it will eventually wind up in WoW as well.


    Weaponry and gadgets? You do know we're talking about a game in which our characters can hold over 120 plate chest armor pieces and not show even a single bulge on their pockets, right? A game in which a demon hunter's wings are not shown until they spread them out to glide?
    Big difference between a half demon sprouting wings from its back, and launching a volley of missiles from nowhere.


    It's irrelevant because we're not talking about who owns/owned the ability. We're talking about such important characteristics being shown by NPCs of that group. The fact that warlocks once had that ability is immaterial, as demon hunters NPCs still had the metamorphosis skill, way before Legion.
    I think it's more important about which aspect was playable. The Warlock version of meta is what was available to players for 8 years, and that's what they were experiencing in the game. We really didn't run into Demon Hunters of note until Legion, so again what's our experience with Metamorphosis in WoW from WotlK until Legion?

    The Warlock version of Metamorphosis of course.


    We're talking about a RTS game. There is not an issue at all in giving a melee character a ranged attack. But it is completely game-changing to give a melee class in WoW a ranged toolkit. It would change the class' gameplay completely while in metamorphosis form. Again: making the metamorphosis form melee in WoW is inconsequential because the demon hunter concept was not defined by its ability to attack at range while in meta form. It was defined by the ability to change into a demon.
    It being inconsequential change is your opinion. The FACT is that switching to melee was a mechanical change to the ability, not just a graphical change.


    I never said it's the same ability. I said it doesn't matter if it's a skeleton or a ghoul because raising a skeleton demonstrates that the class has retained its ability to raise the dead in vanilla WoW.
    And yet another FACT is that it isn't the same ability.

    So back to the original point; None of the DK's abilities existed in WoW before the DK implementation in WotLK.


    The fact that he was never addressed as a monk before MoP? The fact that he had no spoken lines about monkhood or martial arts back in Warcraft 3? The fact that his entire storyline in Warcraft 3 revolved purely around collecting herbs to make drinks?


    Flavor, and passing similarity, considering "drunken martial arts" is a thing that exists in fiction.
    So outside of him never being mentioned to be a Monk, what makes him NOT a Monk? It would appear that he has all the trappings of one.


    The difference is that Chen was never shown in the game. However, Gazlowe, i.e. the goblin wearing a claw pack in WC3, has existed in the game since day one, but has never been seen with a claw pack in the game, whatsoever, in these sixteen years of WoW.
    Gazlowe actually being there is irrelevant, because this isn't a 1:1 comparison. The point is that some aspect of the future class is held back until the class is introduced. Blizzard has never shown the full concept of a future expansion class before it's introduced. There's always some aspect of that class that is held until release.

    He never did martial arts. His entire storyline in WC3 was collecting herbs to make drinks. He literally asks to accompany Rexxar so he could find more herbs. You can see it here: https://youtu.be/uOinNZGWxa0?t=323
    The lore literally says that he has a unique fighting style. That is synonymous with having martial art abilities.


    No, it's not "clearly". Blizzard has never held back in representing the important characteristics of the concepts: death knights could raise the dead, and demon hunters could transform into demons. The sole exception of this is the monk, because the pandaren monk has literally not existed in Azeroth outside of Pandaria and the Wandering Isle. The tinker NPCs, however, have existed all around Azeroth since day one. Mekkatorque and Gazlowe, for example. The latter being an actual owner of a claw pack... but was never seen with one.
    You're saying that they never held back important characteristics when we didn't know that Metamorphosis was going to switch from being ranged to melee? We had no idea if the DK's abilities were all going to be brought over from WC3? When we didn't know if the DK was going to be mounted at all times like the DKs in Naxx and WC3? Those are rather important characteristics don't you think?

    Why would it be game-breaking? Have you seen it to know it would be game-breaking? I mean, we had an expansion feature that allowed us to fight while mounted during Legion, and that did not break the game.
    So you think a DK having 100% increased move speed at all times would be fair and balanced?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Everything you just said is LITERALLY headcanon. Saying magitech isn't tinkering is literally just you moving the goalposts.....again. Regardless of what your biased(and wrong) opinions are, the NPCs I listed are tinkers.
    Yet they're not called Tinkers. So in actuality, you would be the one utilizing headcanon.

    As for races that shun technology, one of those races are Vulpera. Mag'har do NOT shun technology. Also, just because draenei use crystals instead of steampunk nonsense, doesn't mean they're not tinkers. That's just more of your headcanon. the only races I could not see as tinkers from a lore standpoint are trolls, night elves, tauren, vulpera, and pandaren. That's it. There is 100% no lore stating that it would have to be gnome/goblin tech. Furthermore, there is no lore stating other races would refuse to use that tech.
    That's quite a bit of head-canon right there. We have no idea if Vulpera shun tech, or if they've simply never been exposed to it. Again, we have Vulpera gunners, and because of that the latter appears more likely.

    Claw pack isn't canon. Show me where it's talked about in the ACTUAL LORE and not just nonsense like "Well goblins use it in WC3!" disregarding they stopped using them in WoW.
    From WC3:

    Goblins are known for their mechanical expertise and clever, though sometimes peculiar, inventions, and the Tinker is certainly no exception. With his Claw-Pack/Hammer-Tank combo, the Tinker's ingenuity is undeniable. Though his parts may sometimes fail and the occasional explosion does occur, the spirit and enthusiasm of this Hero are never diminished. There truly is more to the Goblin Tinker than meets the eye!

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

    That's canon lore.

  20. #1920
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Like I said, in every case there is an aspect of a future class that Blizzard holds back before implementation. Again, if you have an aspect that shows up in every Warcraft medium except WoW, then it stands to reason that it will eventually wind up in WoW as well.




    Big difference between a half demon sprouting wings from its back, and launching a volley of missiles from nowhere.




    I think it's more important about which aspect was playable. The Warlock version of meta is what was available to players for 8 years, and that's what they were experiencing in the game. We really didn't run into Demon Hunters of note until Legion, so again what's our experience with Metamorphosis in WoW from WotlK until Legion?

    The Warlock version of Metamorphosis of course.




    It being inconsequential change is your opinion. The FACT is that switching to melee was a mechanical change to the ability, not just a graphical change.




    And yet another FACT is that it isn't the same ability.

    So back to the original point; None of the DK's abilities existed in WoW before the DK implementation in WotLK.




    So outside of him never being mentioned to be a Monk, what makes him NOT a Monk? It would appear that he has all the trappings of one.




    Gazlowe actually being there is irrelevant, because this isn't a 1:1 comparison. The point is that some aspect of the future class is held back until the class is introduced. Blizzard has never shown the full concept of a future expansion class before it's introduced. There's always some aspect of that class that is held until release.



    The lore literally says that he has a unique fighting style. That is synonymous with having martial art abilities.




    You're saying that they never held back important characteristics when we didn't know that Metamorphosis was going to switch from being ranged to melee? We had no idea if the DK's abilities were all going to be brought over from WC3? When we didn't know if the DK was going to be mounted at all times like the DKs in Naxx and WC3? Those are rather important characteristics don't you think?



    So you think a DK having 100% increased move speed at all times would be fair and balanced?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yet they're not called Tinkers. So in actuality, you would be the one utilizing headcanon.



    That's quite a bit of head-canon right there. We have no idea if Vulpera shun tech, or if they've simply never been exposed to it. Again, we have Vulpera gunners, and because of that the latter appears more likely.



    From WC3:




    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

    That's canon lore.
    LOL holy crap the moving of the goalposts is INTENSE with you. Just because they don't have the word tinker in their title, they're not tinkers? That is utterly fucking asinine.

    Vulpera are a primitive and nomadic race that hasn't adapted to technology at all. If you're going to say that Vulpera can pick it up because of their new exposure to it then literally EVERY race can since they've been around gnomes and goblins wayyyyyyyyyy longer. So thank you for proving that any race can be a tinker. It's about time.

    It's not canon lore because numerous things from WC3 were retconned in WoW. This has been said so many times. As Ielenia said, why would claw packs be in WC3 then suddenly NEVER get used again when WoW launched? Oh right. It's because they have absolutely nothing to do with lore.

    Also, to use your logic, an artificer is literally synonymous with being a tinker.

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