If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Necromancer! With a tanking spec that uses undead minions to tank, a dps spec that uses undead minions to attack, and a blood-magic healing spec.

Seriously, all the arguments against Necromancer are bad.

1. They'd be no more similar to DK's than priests are to Paladins.

2. Yes, warlocks have minions, but that's like saying we can't have Elemental shamans because we already have mages. "Having minions" is a broad concept, they'd just have to make the mechanics work a bit differently.

[trebor]

Battlemage, that among other stuff can conjure arcane shield and such to let them have a tank spec along side the 2 pure dps specs (one ranged and one melee based).

Came here to say this as well. Battlemage, Spellsword, Swordmage, whatever you want to call it. I'd play the hell out of that kind of class. Apart from that I think it would be fun to see a new ranged class or a new type of spellcaster class.

Also, I don't get people who say that adding a new class would be a bad idea.

[oldgeezer]

Teriz has a fairly well-fleshed idea for dragonsworn here

Good work. Has he ever considered the tinker class?

[Factcheck]

Wasn't Runecaster supposed to be a thing back in WOTLK?

[Shadowferal]

Good work. Has he ever considered the tinker class?

Yes.
Tinker class here

[Katchii]

Why can't Paladins use Shadow magic? Why aren't Death Knights using Holy Magic? Why aren't Mages using Demonic magic? Why can't Hunters transform into animals? Why aren't Shaman draining life from other people? Why aren't Warriors using magic spells?

Yeah, it's all because of theme.

And?

Smite is mechanically identical to Shadowbolt, Fireball, Frost Bolt, Aimed Shot, and Lightning Bolt (and possibly others).

The reason Paladins feel and play differently than Death Knights, that Warlocks feel and play differently than Mages, that Hunters feel and play differently than Druids is because of their game play mechanics, not their theme.

Theme can inspire new abilities and new mechanics.

If all they did was take a Paladin and all it's mechanics and change the theme to be dark and broody based on ice, unholy and blood magic, but keep everything mechanically the same it would still LOOK like a Death Knight, but it would play mechanically identically to a Paladin. There would be zero difference in teh game play between the two.

- - - Updated - - -

Wasn't Runecaster supposed to be a thing back in WOTLK?

The concepts for Necromancer and Runecaster were all kind of absorbed and molded into what eventually became the Death Knight.

[Teriz]

And?

Smite is mechanically identical to Shadowbolt, Fireball, Frost Bolt, Aimed Shot, and Lightning Bolt (and possibly others).

Actually that's false. Previous iterations of Shadowbolt drained life from targets or generated demons/soul shards. Frostbolt slows enemies. Aimed Shot builds Focus. Previous iterations of Fireball caused an increase in crit damage or initiated a DoT over time. Certainly they're all projectiles, but each one has a unique mechanic based on the theme of its class.

Theme can inspire new abilities and new mechanics.

If all they did was take a Paladin and all it's mechanics and change the theme to be dark and broody based on ice, unholy and blood magic, but keep everything mechanically the same it would still LOOK like a Death Knight, but it would play mechanically identically to a Paladin. There would be zero difference in teh game play between the two.

Except Blood, Ice and Unholy magic have intrinsic mechanics and thematics. So no, a Paladin could never use those types if abilities because it would go against the theme of the Paladin class.

[Ielenia]

Once you realize that base mechanics and design =/= entirely unique you'll understand why people are saying this.

Hm.

Also, I have never said that new classes have to be anywhere near 100% unique to be viable. I have stated, multiple times through multiple threads, that it's fine for classes to share gameplay elements and/or themes. Because, guess what: we have classes, right now, that share gameplay elements, and classes that share themes.

And remember that this whole thing started with the claim that "a mechanical theme brings unique gameplay" which is the whole contention, here.

Druids got Symbiosis (Now removed for obvious reasons). Would that have fit on a Paladin? Sure, if you changed it to fit their design and themes. But as is? Hell no. Could you give rogues a mech? Pffff. You'd be hard pressed to even find something literally equivalent to that.

The theme of the ability is irrelevant, and that includes the ability's name. A mechanic that allows the player to copy the ability of another player character is not something exclusive to the druid theme, and the mechanic can be given as-is to the paladin class, for example. Or the mage class.

- - - Updated - - -

Why can't Paladins use Shadow magic? Why aren't Death Knights using Holy Magic? Why aren't Mages using Demonic magic? Why can't Hunters transform into animals? Why aren't Shaman draining life from other people? Why aren't Warriors using magic spells?

Yeah, it's all because of theme.

Irrelevant. Everything you said there is nothing but themes. None of what you mentioned is "gameplay". "Shadow magic", "holy magic", "demonic magic"... all of those are themes. Not gameplay.

Why does the hunter class lack a mechanic that transforms their character into something else? I don't know. Probably because Blizzard decided not to give them that particular mechanic.

Also, I'll remind you: what the player transforms into is not a mechanic. The act of transformation itself is the mechanic, regardless of what they turn into.

[Clash the DK]

Battlemage, that among other stuff can conjure arcane shield and such to let them have a tank spec along side the 2 pure dps specs (one ranged and one melee based).

This is my pick.

[Teriz]

Irrelevant. Everything you said there is nothing but themes. None of what you mentioned is "gameplay". "Shadow magic", "holy magic", "demonic magic"... all of those are themes. Not gameplay.

The gameplay is based around those themes. Holy Magic and Shadow Magic have mechanical differences.

Why does the hunter class lack a mechanic that transforms their character into something else? I don't know. Probably because Blizzard decided not to give them that particular mechanic.

Because it doesn't fit the Hunter theme.

Also, I'll remind you: what the player transforms into is not a mechanic. The act of transformation itself is the mechanic, regardless of what they turn into.

I never said it was. I said that what the player transforms into influences the type of gameplay allowed by the theme.

[Swnem]

12 pages.. Has this turned into a Tinker thread yet like class threads always do?

I want a battlemage, arcane magic in melee, yes pls.

Or something that makes use of the drustvar witch spell effects. The blue/black ones, that seem to be raw death magic before Death Knights turn it into unholy/blood/frost and it could be interesting to play around with.

Like i knew it would as people started bashing Tinker despite several mentioning it as their choice.

You don't see people coming here and saying everything except battlemage! That is trolling and mods don't seem to care.
I pleaded to them to not let it happen to no avail... so, here we go again. People are not allowed to like Tinker in these forums and the trolling is allowed so, yeah. Impossible to talk about new classes when it always turns into vendetta time.

[Katchii]

Actually that's false. Previous iterations of Shadowbolt drained life from targets or generated demons/soul shards. Frostbolt slows enemies. Aimed Shot builds Focus. Previous iterations of Fireball caused an increase in crit damage or initiated a DoT over time. Certainly they're all projectiles, but each one has a unique mechanic based on the theme of its class.

Functionally, they serve the same purpose. It's a relatively short cast time ability that is used as the fill/ more or less primary ability when not using the bigger ones.

That's what I'm saying.

The reason they ARE as different as you say has nothing to do with the theme of the ability but the mechanics you discuss.

Except Blood, Ice and Unholy magic have intrinsic mechanics and thematics. So no, a Paladin could never use those types if abilities because it would go against the theme of the Paladin class.

No they don't have intrinsic mechanics. They have mechanics Blizzard programmed specifically to work the way they do. That's the point. Frostbolt looks and works the way it does because it was designed specifically to look and work that way and have those mechanics. They didn't just take Fireball, change the animation and call it a day.

If they were to literally take every Paladin ability, give it more Death Knight appropriate animation, call it a Death Knight appropriate name and then just call the class a Death Knight it would play exactly the same as a Paladin, but look like a Death Knight.

- - - Updated - - -

The gameplay is based around those themes. Holy Magic and Shadow Magic have mechanical differences.

Because those differences are intentionally programmed that way. They do not magically have different game play simply because they call one ability a Shadow Magic ability and one a Holy Magic ability.

[Teriz]

Functionally, they serve the same purpose. It's a relatively short cast time ability that is used as the fill/ more or less primary ability when not using the bigger ones.

That's what I'm saying.

The reason they ARE as different as you say has nothing to do with the theme of the ability but the mechanics you discuss.

So an Frost Mage having Frostbolt which slows enemy targets when it hits them has nothing to do with the theme of a Mage using Frost magic?

No they don't have intrinsic mechanics. They have mechanics Blizzard programmed specifically to work the way they do. That's the point. Frostbolt looks and works the way it does because it was designed specifically to look and work that way and have those mechanics. They didn't just take Fireball, change the animation and call it a day.

Again, a Frost Mage would have Frost magic correct? What's a quality of Ice? It slows and freezes. Thus when you create abilities based on that type of magic, you're going to include mechanics that cause enemies to be slowed and frozen. That would be an intrinsic mechanic.

If they were to literally take every Paladin ability, give it more Death Knight appropriate animation, call it a Death Knight appropriate name and then just call the class a Death Knight it would play exactly the same as a Paladin, but look like a Death Knight.

What?

Because those differences are intentionally programmed that way. They do not magically have different game play simply because they call one ability a Shadow Magic ability and one a Holy Magic ability.

Okay, I want you to think about this for a moment; Why would a Blizzard game developer give Shadow Magic and Holy Magic unique qualities and different mechanics?

- - - Updated - - -

Necromancer! With a tanking spec that uses undead minions to tank, a dps spec that uses undead minions to attack, and a blood-magic healing spec.

Seriously, all the arguments against Necromancer are bad.

1. They'd be no more similar to DK's than priests are to Paladins.

Priests use Shadow magic. Paladins use weapon-based Holy Magic. What magic type would Necromancers use that Death Knights couldn't use?

2. Yes, warlocks have minions, but that's like saying we can't have Elemental shamans because we already have mages. "Having minions" is a broad concept, they'd just have to make the mechanics work a bit differently.

Well no. Neither Mages or Shaman are a pet class. Warlocks are a Pet class, and they use demonic minions and shadow magic to manipulate their pets. They even have life and soul transfer abilities that just scream "Necromancer". Shadowbolt, Life Drain, Curse of Weakness, Corruption, Hearthstone, Life Tap, Soul Shard, Soulstone, etc. are all Necromancer abilities given to the Warlock class. In short, what you desire is nothing more than a palette swap of the current Warlock class.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Priests use Shadow magic. Paladins use weapon-based Holy Magic. What magic type would Necromancers use that Death Knights couldn't use?

Well no. Neither Mages or Shaman are a pet class. Warlocks are a Pet class, and they use demonic minions and shadow magic to manipulate their pets. They even have life and soul transfer abilities that just scream "Necromancer". Shadowbolt, Life Drain, Curse of Weakness, Corruption, Hearthstone, Life Tap, Soul Shard, Soulstone, etc. are all Necromancer abilities given to the Warlock class. In short, what you desire is nothing more than a palette swap of the current Warlock class.

1. Have you not heard of an analogy before? My point was that we can have multiple pet classes (BM hunter, DM warlock, and Necromancers) just like we can have multiple caster classes (elemental Shaman, Mage, Shadow Priest, Destro Warlock).

2. I'm not sure what you mean about "magic types". Lots of classes use the same magic types. Shamans, druids, and monks all use nature. Rogues and warriors are both physical. Paladins and not-shadow Priests use the Light.

3. As for spells, you *could* give necros some warlock abilities that fit necromancer better, but you don't have to (and probably shouldn't, because warlocks would whine). You could easily give them a wholly new set of abilities, just look at the abilities of the Diablo 2 & 3 Necromancers.

In short, Necromancers are different enough, and Warlocks and Death Knights don't fulfill the Necromancer fantasy well enough. A simple green-fire style palette swap would be too cheap. I. Want. Necromancer class. It can be done.

[Frai85]

If the next class isnt Bard or a RDPS I'm uninstalling and waiting for Ashes/Pantheon to come out.

[Keristrasza]

I don't care what they are called, I would just love to see a class that either A: Does pure healing through shadow magic or Fire magic (a healer in RIFT did the fire one.) or B: A class that uses water or blood magic for DPS. >>

[Teriz]

1. Have you not heard of an analogy before? My point was that we can have multiple pet classes (BM hunter, DM warlock, and Necromancers) just like we can have multiple caster classes (elemental Shaman, Mage, Shadow Priest, Destro Warlock).

And we already have a class that uses various types of Undead pets, so why do we need a Necromancer?

2. I'm not sure what you mean about "magic types". Lots of classes use the same magic types. Shamans, druids, and monks all use nature. Rogues and warriors are both physical. Paladins and not-shadow Priests use the Light.

Yeah, false. Shaman use Elemental, Druids use Arcane and Nature. Shaman don't use Arcane. Monks use Nature and Martial Arts. Rogues use Shadow Magic, Warriors don't use magic at all. Shadow Magic permeates every Priest spec, so there's no such thing as a "not-shadow Priest". The very concept of the class is a magic user who balances the light and shadow. Paladin on the other hand is a pure holy warrior.

So again, what's a magic type that Necromancers can use that DKs wouldn't be able to use.

3. As for spells, you *could* give necros some warlock abilities that fit necromancer better, but you don't have to (and probably shouldn't, because warlocks would whine). You could easily give them a wholly new set of abilities, just look at the abilities of the Diablo 2 & 3 Necromancers.

Except this isn't Diablo 2 or 3, and it's important to note that you wouldn't just need to strip Warlocks of abilities, you'd need to strip DKs too.

In short, Necromancers are different enough, and Warlocks and Death Knights don't fulfill the Necromancer fantasy well enough. A simple green-fire style palette swap would be too cheap. I. Want. Necromancer class. It can be done.

Again, if Necromancers are so different, what magic type would they use that DKs are currently not using. Frankly this sounds more like you simply want a ranged DK. The range of attack is not enough justification for a new class.

[Ielenia]

The gameplay is based around those themes. Holy Magic and Shadow Magic have mechanical differences.

Because Blizzard decided to give them mechanical differences. But inherently? They have no differences, mechanic-speaking. What's the mechanical difference between a shadow spell dealing damage and healing a friendly target (Vampiric Embrace) and a holy spell dealing damage and healing a friendly target (Atonement)?

Because it doesn't fit the Hunter theme.

I'd argue that 'turning into an animal' fits rather well in an animal-focused class, if Blizzard made it slightly more magical. But, again, to the point: you don't know that, no matter how many times you claim you do.

I never said it was. I said that what the player transforms into influences the type of gameplay allowed by the theme.

Not really. Nothing stops Blizzard from making, for example, a feral druid play the exact same as a guardian druid, if they decided to make both DPS specs. I mean, if Blizzard copied all of the feral druid's attack, gave a 30-yard range to them and changed their graphics to look like magic, and then made the shape-shift model from a cat into a super-fat anthro owl, we'd have a boomkin, which is a completely different theme from the feral druid, but would still play the exact same as the feral druid.

Sure, once in a blue moon you might find a specific mechanic to be not as easy to include into a specific theme, but overall no theme has "unique gameplay". Gameplay, unique or not, does not come from theme, but from the interactions among the class' mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

So again, what's a magic type that Necromancers can use that DKs wouldn't be able to use.

Easiest question of the century: poison magic.

Except this isn't Diablo 2 or 3

But it's fine for you to use games such as Warcraft 3, Heroes of the Storm and even Hearthstone?

Again, if Necromancers are so different, what magic type would they use that DKs are currently not using.

One, they don't have to have a different magic type than the death knights. Two, there is poison. And considering necromancers often used to be mages... they could have a fire spec. Or an arcane spec. Who knows. There are many possibilities, here.

Frankly this sounds more like you simply want a ranged DK. The range of attack is not enough justification for a new class.

And this exact same argument could be used against people asking for a priest class, if the priest did not exist in the game, already: "sounds like you simply want a ranged paladin. The range of attack is not enough justification for a new class."

Don't you agree?

[Ashleyxoxo]

Not tinkerer.

[Teriz]

Because Blizzard decided to give them mechanical differences. But inherently? They have no differences, mechanic-speaking. What's the mechanical difference between a shadow spell dealing damage and healing a friendly target (Vampiric Embrace) and a holy spell dealing damage and healing a friendly target (Atonement)?

Attonement isn't a Holy magic spell, it's a Physical spell. Further, Discipline was designed to be a blend of Shadow and Holy magic, which is why you have spells like Attonement which has attributes of both Holy and Shadow magic.

I'd argue that 'turning into an animal' fits rather well in an animal-focused class, if Blizzard made it slightly more magical. But, again, to the point: you don't know that, no matter how many times you claim you do.

That would be the realm of a Druid, not a Hunter.

Not really. Nothing stops Blizzard from making, for example, a feral druid play the exact same as a guardian druid, if they decided to make both DPS specs. I mean, if Blizzard copied all of the feral druid's attack, gave a 30-yard range to them and changed their graphics to look like magic, and then made the shape-shift model from a cat into a super-fat anthro owl, we'd have a boomkin, which is a completely different theme from the feral druid, but would still play the exact same as the feral druid.

Again, just because it is possible for Blizzard to do it, doesn't change the fact that the themes open up gameplay opportunities in some classes, and restricts gameplay opportunities in others.

Easiest question of the century: poison magic.

Would you care to find any Necromancer in WoW that uses poison magic?

But it's fine for you to use games such as Warcraft 3, Heroes of the Storm and even Hearthstone?

Yes because all three are in WoW in one form or another, Diablo is not.

One, they don't have to have a different magic type than the death knights. Two, there is poison. And considering necromancers often used to be mages... they could have a fire spec. Or an arcane spec. Who knows. There are many possibilities, here.

Feel free to find a Necromancer in WoW (or any Warcraft related game) using Fire Magic or Arcane Magic.

And this exact same argument could be used against people asking for a priest class, if the priest did not exist in the game, already: "sounds like you simply want a ranged paladin. The range of attack is not enough justification for a new class."

Don't you agree?

Nope. All you need to do is tie it to the Old Gods, or as a class that balances Shadow and Holy magic. Paladin doesn't touch those themes at all.