If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

What the fuck kind of logic is that? are you expecting the Tinker to be some kind of a futuristic class? because that's not what Goblin and Gnome engineering is about. They are, mostly, mechanical, electric and, prone to explosions.

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the Tinker is;



That is far more advanced tech than fragmentation bombs and steel traps.

We don't care for technical issues, like spec or PvP/PvE division (like you don't, when it comes to other class concepts). So, fantasy/RP-wise, those abilities fit the bill.

As shown, there's a vast difference between a mech suit with lasers, robots, gravity weapons, etc. and medieval gadgets and primitive explosive devices.

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ill answer

they are a medieval support style archetype that fits a sword and sorcery style game unlike steam punk midgets in zords

It's important to note that those "punk midgets in zords" have a far more robust history in Warcraft than Bards.

We've had Tinker heroes in WC3 and HotS, we've hard Tinker classes in the table top RPG, and we see prominent Tinker characters in WoW.

We don't see anything like that for Bards. Perhaps most damning is the lack of any prominent Bard characters in Warcraft in general, and the complete lack of Bard classes in the table top RPGs.

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You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.

I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

457 votes.


https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

1201 votes.

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As it should. A few years ago I had a fan-concept in this vain swirling in my head, it was remarkably similar to what we have with soulbinds and covenants.

Personally the WoW’s dragon lore feels too robust to smash into a singular class.

Well like I said, I could definitely see a "Dragonsworn" concept be pushed in that direction instead of an actual class. Unfortunate, but it would make sense because there's no "definitive" draconic abilities like there are Death Knight, Demon Hunter, and Brewmaster abilities.

[Ielenia]

This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!

I'm anxious to see it! What specs are you giving it? DPS/DPS/Healer, or...?

You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.

You bet I'm bookmarking that thread and poll for when a certain someone mentions about the popularity of a certain class concept...

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I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

457 votes.


https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

1201 votes.

So you're saying that a poll in a fan forum website is more reliable and more indicative of what the players want than a poll posted in the official forums? Is that it?

[draugril]

This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!



You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.

I would never contend that Bards aren't popular. I just believe that their implementation in WoW would be a corrupted wish.

It's like playable High Elves. Technically, we got them in Void Elves... but is that wish truly fulfilled if you only fulfill it on a technicality?

Technically, any music-themed class could be a Bard. But is it truly a Bard?

What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?

[Teriz]

Precisely.

I mean, just look at Enhancement Shaman. That was the class and specialization that I was sold on when I first played the game. It was advertised as the offensive support class. It realized this concept as best as WoW could. And then its niche - its very identity - was gutted from it. What is it, now? What niche does it fill? What sets it apart from all the other classes? And if you can provide an answer to any of those questions... try again without mentioning the thematics of the class.

Implementing a Bard is akin to starting off a class on the same shaky ground that Shaman finds itself in, with no real mechanical identity.

It's not that I don't want Bard - it's that I enjoy the concept too much to see it disrespected in the same way that the Shaman (and to a lesser degree, Paladin) class has been over the better part of two decades.

Enhancement Shaman is essentially a Battlemage. Always has been. The uniqueness of the Shaman class is that you can take a spell caster and give it solid melee abilities. Enhancement had frankly one of the most unique passive talents in the game. It was a talent that converted agility into intelligence and thus spell power.

That said, the problem you guys are having with the Bard simply illustrates the importance of having abilities and lore characters already set up for these class concepts. Consider what we have for the Tinker versus the Bard for example. We know the general direction Blizzard would take the Tinker class, we have a host of abilities from WC3 and HotS to utilize for the Tinker concept, we can break the Tinker down to multiple specializations, and we can even take abilities from the Alchemist hero to add to the overall Tinker concept.

All we have for the Bard is speculation and confusion. We have no lore hero to base the Bard's style on. We have no abilities to structure specializations around. We have absolutely no idea how Blizzard would push the Bard concept, or even if the Bard class fits in WoW's class role paradigm (heal/DPS/tank). I'm forced to agree with Triceron that a Profession would make more sense.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the Tinker is;

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...3D8MQ&usqp=CAU

That is far more advanced tech than fragmentation bombs and steel traps.

Is it, though? This isn't an "Iron Man"-like kind of technology we're talking about here. That is literally just a steam engine in a fancy chassis.

[Teriz]

So you're saying that a poll in a fan forum website is more reliable and more indicative of what the players want than a poll posted in the official forums? Is that it?

More votes = More reliable.

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Is it, though? This isn't an "Iron Man"-like kind of technology we're talking about here. That is literally just a steam engine in a fancy chassis.

Gravity weapons and lasers aren't Iron Man-like technology?

[Ielenia]

What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?

The same difference between a demon hunter and a warrior dual-wielding warglaives.
The same difference between a mage and a warrior wielding a staff.
The same difference between a rogue and a warrior dual-wielding daggers.

[Amunrasonther]

I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

457 votes.


https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

1201 votes.

The poll I linked actually has a lot more votes. When I had voted, a few of the choices had hundreds of votes. As I said, for some reason, it reset at one point. I think it is indicative that Bards popularity has gained momentum. The polls you linked are old and were taken during BFA. Also, if anything, it could show that Tinkers are only popular here on MMO and not on the main forums.

[Ielenia]

More votes = More reliable.

Quick yes/no question:

Two polls. One done throughout the entire country of the US, the other done only in Texas. The poll in Texas has more votes than the one done all over the US. Would you say that the poll from Texas is more reliable to represent what the country wants?

Gravity weapons and lasers aren't Iron Man-like technology?

I'm talking about the armor you got there. Also, is it really 'high-tech' if "hobbyists" can craft and use it?

[Amunrasonther]

I'm anxious to see it! What specs are you giving it? DPS/DPS/Healer, or...?

Minstrel (Healing), Loresinger (Ranged DPS), and Magician (Ranged DPS). I wanted spec names that felt like roles, jobs, and ways a Bard can "entertain".

Technically, any music-themed class could be a Bard. But is it truly a Bard?

If they're providing damage, healing, and buffs through music, yes. I'd argue they're truly a Bard.

What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?

Obviously, what they're capable of doing with said guitar. A warrior is only going to be able to bash you over the head with it, haha.

[draugril]

The same difference between a demon hunter and a warrior dual-wielding warglaives.
The same difference between a mage and a warrior wielding a staff.
The same difference between a rogue and a warrior dual-wielding daggers.

Those classes have identities beyond their type of weapon.

Bard does as well, but as you love to dismiss out of hand, their mechanical identity is tied up in the support role which is antithetical to WoW's trinity. So without that identity, the analogues of which all these other classes were based on... what is a Bard beyond the Music theme?

[Teriz]

The poll I linked actually has a lot more votes. When I had voted, a few of the choices had hundreds of votes. As I said, for some reason, it reset at one point. I think it is indicative that Bards popularity has gained momentum. The polls you linked are old and were taken during BFA. Also, if anything, it could show that Tinkers are only popular here on MMO and not on the main forums.

Unfortunately I can only go by what you posted.

Wouldn't those polls also be from BFA since that expansion ended only 2 months ago?

That said, by all means, post those polls.

[draugril]

Minstrel (Healing), Loresinger (Ranged DPS), and Magician (Ranged DPS). I wanted spec names that felt like roles, jobs, and ways a Bard can "entertain".



If they're providing damage, healing, and buffs through music, yes. I'd argue they're truly a Bard.



Obviously, what they're capable of doing with said guitar. A warrior is only going to be able to bash you over the head with it, haha.

Honest question here - have you actually played a Bard in other games? I legitimately find it difficult to believe that someone who has enjoyed the class in other settings would be sated by "anything goes, as long as it's Music-magic"-mantra. Bards need to support, primarily. Healing, damage... those are secondary functions.

It would be like getting a Warrior class that only heals people by throwing axes at them. Sure, it has the right look, the right theme... but the gameplay is so incongruous with the mechanical basis of the class that you would feel insulted that they call it a Warrior.

[Teriz]

I'm talking about the armor you got there. Also, is it really 'high-tech' if "hobbyists" can craft and use it?

You mean Mekkatorque's armor? It had advanced weaponry like Buster Laser Cannon, Gigavolt Charge, and could deploy multiple types of support robots. Not to mention had the ability to perform aerial combat.

Again, how is that not Iron Man-style tech?

[Ielenia]

Those classes have identities beyond their type of weapon.

Bard does as well,

Then why even mention "weapon type"?

but as you love to dismiss out of hand, their mechanical identity is tied up in the support role which is antithetical to WoW's trinity.

I dismiss out of hand because it's an objectively false claim. The bard does not need to be a support class to be support. Hell, priests arguably are more "support" than bards. Bards can easily be made to fit WoW's class system and still be 100% bards.

I've told you that four times already, but you "love to dismiss it out of hand". So your post comes off more like projection than anything.

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The poll I linked actually has a lot more votes. When I had voted, a few of the choices had hundreds of votes. As I said, for some reason, it reset at one point. I think it is indicative that Bards popularity has gained momentum. The polls you linked are old and were taken during BFA. Also, if anything, it could show that Tinkers are only popular here on MMO and not on the main forums.

Not to mention that if you take the class polls in this website throughout the years, you can see a rather steady decline in popularity for the tinker, as we have less people voting for tinkers, and more people voting for other classes, like necromancer, in terms of %.

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You mean Mekkatorque's armor? It had advanced weaponry like Buster Laser Cannon, Gigavolt Charge, and could deploy multiple types of support robots. Not to mention had the ability to perform aerial combat.

Again, how is that not Iron Man-style tech?

It doesn't deploy robots. They come flying on small carriers.

Also, I'm waiting on your answer:

Quick yes/no question:

Two polls. One done throughout the entire country of the US, the other done only in Texas. The poll in Texas has more votes than the one done all over the US. Would you say that the poll from Texas is more reliable to represent what the country wants?

[Teriz]

It doesn't deploy robots. They come flying on small carriers.

Which would still be akin to Iron Man-style tech. Not steel traps and fragment bombs.

Also, I'm waiting on your answer:

Your example doesn't really apply to this situation.

[Ielenia]

Bards need to support, primarily.

No. They don't. No more than priests, too.

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Your example doesn't really apply to this situation.

It does, perfectly. You're saying that a sample of a sample (which is the MMO-Champion forums) is more reliable and more representative than a sample of the entire player base (which is the official forums).

So, answer the question. Which one is more reliable about what the WHOLE player base wants?

[Teriz]

It does, perfectly. You're saying that a sample of a sample (which is the MMO-Champion forums) is more reliable and more representative than a sample of the entire player base (which is the official forums).

So, answer the question. Which one is more reliable about what the WHOLE player base wants?

Actually that's incorrect. Unlike Texas vs the US, MMOC vs WoW official forums is an open forum versus a closed form. In other words, you have current players only on the WoW forums whereas on MMOC you have current players AND potential players who have either stopped playing the game, or could potentially play the game in the future. So which group is more representative of the potential user base for a FUTURE class? ONLY current players, or current players, former players, and potential players?

I know which I'd look at more if I were Blizzard, and it wouldn't be a poll with 251 current WoW players.

[Amunrasonther]

Unfortunately I can only go by what you posted.

Wouldn't those polls also be from BFA since that expansion ended only 2 months ago?

That said, by all means, post those polls.

WoW main forums does not have a built in poll feature like the MMO forums, and I have no reason to lie.

Honest question here - have you actually played a Bard in other games? I legitimately find it difficult to believe that someone who has enjoyed the class in other settings would be sated by "anything goes, as long as it's Music-magic"-mantra. Bards need to support, primarily. Healing, damage... those are secondary functions.

It would be like getting a Warrior class that only heals people by throwing axes at them. Sure, it has the right look, the right theme... but the gameplay is so incongruous with the mechanical basis of the class that you would feel insulted that they call it a Warrior.

The idea that Bards sit there and strictly buff (support!!11!!) while doing nothing else is archaic and doesn't belong in WoW. Hence, if Bards were to be implemented in WoW, they'd follow the DPS/Healer/Tank format like every other class in the game.

[Teriz]

WoW main forums does not have a built in poll feature like the MMO forums, and I have no reason to lie.

Never said you were. I'm simply saying that I can only go on what I'm seeing, and I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option.