If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Ielenia]

There's a difference between an ability being altered to fit into WoW's class structure and you attempting to argue that an item is a stand-in for an ability.

And it's arguable that the tinker abilities from WC3 were altered to fit into WoW as the character concept was turned into the engineering profession.

On top of that, there was no need to alter the ability's name, was there?

Also, I'm still waiting for your answer to my question:

What, exactly, did the demon hunters had to offer, mechanically, that was "unique"? Because, mechanically speaking, "turning into a demon" is not different than a shaman turning into an Ascendant, or, back in pre-Legion days, a warlock turning into a demon.

And for clarification: before it was made into a playable class.

[alineazul]

interesting i want to learn more about it

[Unbelievable]

Yeah, that's false. Reeves is a Reaver (hence its name) and Shredders aren't a "race". Where'd you pull that from?



And they picked a bow to shoot it with.



No, they're going to use the Tinker abilities from WC3 and HotS. Those will be the foundation of the class' abilities.



A transmogged Orc arms warrior is viable. A gnome using engineering items is not.



GMOD wasn't built by Gallywix. Also GMOD represented an entire series of newer Goblin mechs. It also needs to be mentioned that the Tinker class wouldn't be using shredders.



But the expansion wasn't centered on Pandaren, that was the point.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Reaves

If it was a Fel Reaver it would have been categorized as one.

Do explain how you shoot a rocket with a bow.

So, the Tinker will, exclusively, be based on nothing but, Goblin tech? I, highly, doubt it.

No, it's not viable. It's like telling a Warrior to wear a Dreadnaught gear before WotLK and pretend he's a Death Knight, a Warlock to wear Betrayer regalia or a Rogue to wear Blindfold and Glaives of Azzinoth, before Legion, and pretend they are a Demon Hunter.

A Gnome/Goblin/Mechagnome Hunter with Engineering is viable. Just use your imagination

For a guy who has been using Shredders this entire 160 pages arguments, this is a little hypocritical. Plus, didn't you say the Tinker would get a mech different from the ones in game?

It is centered around Pandarens. You just can't have them be the entire expansion. Like Legion was a Demon Hunter expansion, yet it wasn't all just about them. WotLK was about Death Knights, yet it wasn't all about them. Warlords of Draenor being about Orcs, yet it is changed midway to demons. BfA being about the faction war yet, it gets changed to Void stuff mid-way. Cataclysm being about dragons but, also about elementals and the twilight hammer. You can't have just one element the whole entire expansion. especially, when the Pandaren are the good guys, not the big baddy.

The mech form is the Tinker ultimate ability from WC3. So yes it will be implemented. In fact, my money is on the claw pack being completely replaced by the mech because in BFA Blizzard added various mechanics to mech-using NPCs. You see this with Gazlowe in Island Expeditions, the Mech Jockeys in MOTHERLODE, and Exarch Orelis during the Mag'har recruit scenario. It would be rather redundant to have a claw pack AND a mech.

The speed in which you change your opinions is remarkable. Just in page 100 you posted artwork of Goblins, Gnomes and Mechagnomes with claw pack. You stick to both WC3 and HotS, which clearly present the Tinker with a claw pack, yet you dismiss it because you prefer constant mech. The amount of hypocrisy here is tremendous.

Yes. Yes I do. One of the coolest character classes I've ever played in an MMO was the Engineer in GW2. Having an approximation of that, but whackier so as to better fit the WoW tech aesthetic, would be amazing.I don't want to play as Iron Man in WoW.

Thank you. Players want to play as a romanticised inventor, not as a sci-fi superhero.

[Teriz]

And it's arguable that the tinker abilities from WC3 were altered to fit into WoW as the character concept was turned into the engineering profession.

Then why are these here instead of inside the profession;

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=135574/cluster-rocket
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=148085/healing-spray

Also the HotS abilities were altered to fit into WoW as well;

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261516/rock-it-turret
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261752/deth-lazor
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261788/grav-o-bomb-3000
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261739/xplodium-charge
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=276851...goblin-defense

None of these are items, and they’re altered for WoW. So again, why aren't they in the profession if the Tinker and Alchemist were turned into a profession?

On top of that, there was no need to alter the ability's name, was there?

Maybe they thought Army of the Dead was more appropriate. Animate Dead is used by quite a few Necromancer mobs in WoW, and it's a single skeleton summoning ability.

- - - Updated - - -

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Reaves

If it was a Fel Reaver it would have been categorized as one.

It's listed as a notable Fel Reaver, but isn't on the list of notable shredders.

I wonder why.....

Do explain how you shoot a rocket with a bow.

Because it's actually an arrow.

So, the Tinker will, exclusively, be based on nothing but, Goblin tech? I, highly, doubt it.

They'll make abilities that can work with both races. Deth Lazor for example.

No, it's not viable. It's like telling a Warrior to wear a Dreadnaught gear before WotLK and pretend he's a Death Knight, a Warlock to wear Betrayer regalia or a Rogue to wear Blindfold and Glaives of Azzinoth, before Legion, and pretend they are a Demon Hunter.

Except the difference being that there are actually Blademaster abilities available to Warriors, whereas there were no DK abilities were available to Warriors.

It is centered around Pandarens. You just can't have them be the entire expansion. Like Legion was a Demon Hunter expansion, yet it wasn't all just about them. WotLK was about Death Knights, yet it wasn't all about them. Warlords of Draenor being about Orcs, yet it is changed midway to demons. BfA being about the faction war yet, it gets changed to Void stuff mid-way. Cataclysm being about dragons but, also about elementals and the twilight hammer. You can't have just one element the whole entire expansion. especially, when the Pandaren are the good guys, not the big baddy.

No, WoD was all about Orcs and it remained that way throughout. It switched from Grom in the beginning to Gul'dan in the end.

The Pandaren in Pandaria were pretty much an after thought.

The speed in which you change your opinions is remarkable. Just in page 100 you posted artwork of Goblins, Gnomes and Mechagnomes with claw pack. You stick to both WC3 and HotS, which clearly present the Tinker with a claw pack, yet you dismiss it because you prefer constant mech. The amount of hypocrisy here is tremendous.

Where's the hypocrisy? I said that the Claw Pack is a high possibility due to the precedence of Blizzard sticking fairly close to their WC3 concepts in the previous three expansion classes. However, I personally prefer them going all mech.

[jellmoo]

Yeah I've never seen anyone ever complain about this until now. Is there any thread you can point to where there's a group of DK players complaining over them not being able to permanently ride their undead horses? If not, this seems much ado about nothing.

I;m not entirely sure what threads from over 12 years ago would prove though. I'm not saying that there was a huge and rabid groupd of people itching to play a mounted Death Knight. I have absolutely no idea if there were. I'm saying that the possibility exists. I'm saying that Blizzard looked at the mounted Death Knight concept and said "nah fam, we ain't doing that", which kinda indicates that they are willing to deviate from what was in WC3.

Well yeah, mainly because the latter ability is far more balanced and sensible. In the end it still serves the same purpose; Allows the DK to summon multiple undead minions at once.

But... It isn't... One is a random bunch of ghouls that zerg. The other literally raises friends and foes around you, powerful ones, to attack for you in an organized manner. They are so functionally different that they have different names.

I'm not sure of the ranged attack, but yes you could control each spirit individually in earlier iterations. Blizzard simplified the ability to its current version.

The point though is that Blizzard did fully translate the WC3 ultimate ability into WoW.

But they didn't give it to the class they made for that unit. Hell, the two versions are even functional different. The one with the ranged attack wasn't a cooldown.

See above. By all accounts they did.

So, your argument is that those are the same abilities, but a Mech form for a Tinker has to a permanent form and if it isn't it is not the same ability? Seriously?

So you're saying an Orc wouldn't be able to tell these two mechs apart;




C'mon man.

A random Orc Farmer is supposed to know that one of those is built by a tinker and one is built by an Engineer? He's supposed to know the ins and outs of those things and what they produce? C'mon man.

Or they can completely skip the Claw Pack part and just have the Tinker in the mech. That's the entire point of the concept.

So the claw pack is optional to the theme, despit being very present in the materials you quote, but the mech somehow is not?

Well think back to what we were doing in Pandaria. The Pandaren were just there to guide and help us. We were fighting an empire of sentient bugs, exploring ancient Mogu dungeons, dealing with an army of dino-riding trolls, and remnants of an Old God. When it was all over, we had to deal with a Horde rebellion and take out Garrosh. I wouldn't call that an expansion centered on Pandaren.

Yeah. And it quite literally wrapped all around the Pandaren. They were very, very present every step of the way. They were an incredibly pivotal part of the story. Are you trying to suggest that an Undermine story wouldn't be heavily wrapped around Goblins in the same way?

Also it sort of helps that MoP is often regarded across the board as one of WoW's best expansions, despite the bitching of some in the community.

And I don't disagree. MoP was by far my favourite expansion. I just don't think that Blizzard is all that likely to go down that road again.

Well the expansion before this one had about half of its content dedicated to Jaina Proudmoore dealing with the decision of killing her father, which occurred in WC3, Sylvanas dealing with her death which also happened in WC3, the return of Thrall who was introduced in WC3, and the return of Azshara, a character first mentioned in WC3.

So again, it's kind of hard to say that they've moved "far beyond" WC3. That statement simply is not true.

I don't see it that way though. Sure, characters from WC3 are still around. Why wouldn't they be? But we;ve also done a lot to take us past that point. Multiple Horde leaders. New characters taking central focus. Characters from WC3 dying. New areas opening up and new stories being told. The story from WC3 was very narrow and specific, which makes sense for the game. We've moved in a ton of different directions since then. Of course popular xharacters from that game are still around and get used, but we've hit a point where that's not needed anymore. We can actually get new stories featuring new heroes and villains.

Why would a mech-based concept seem sci-fi to you when we have stuff like this;



In WoW currently?

Because that's very sci fi as it is, but is far easier to compartmentalize when it's the random NPC here and there that you seldom see, as opposed to an entire class based around Robotech.

And why would I want to turn WoW into Robotech, when this is so much more interesting?

[Traveler Voltin]

goblin and gnome stuff is steam punk.

Legion and draenei stuff is more of sci-fi

[Teriz]

I;m not entirely sure what threads from over 12 years ago would prove though. I'm not saying that there was a huge and rabid groupd of people itching to play a mounted Death Knight. I have absolutely no idea if there were. I'm saying that the possibility exists. I'm saying that Blizzard looked at the mounted Death Knight concept and said "nah fam, we ain't doing that", which kinda indicates that they are willing to deviate from what was in WC3.

Well why would it need to be 12 years ago? If this was a problem for the DK community, wouldn't it be an ongoing problem that they would be discussing up till now? Heck, Shaman players still gripe about 2H Enhancement, and they've been griping about that since TBC. Again, I see your point about a deviation from WC3, but this isn't really something I've ever heard DK players complain about.

Perhaps in the future Blizzard could give them something like the Paladin ability Divine Steed.

But... It isn't... One is a random bunch of ghouls that zerg. The other literally raises friends and foes around you, powerful ones, to attack for you in an organized manner. They are so functionally different that they have different names.

No, you simply positioned yourself over a pile of corpses, used the spell and it summoned up to 6 invulnerable undead copies of the most powerful units in that pile. I don't see how you say they attacked in an organized manner. My memory of the spell was that you typically performed that ability after you had just downed your enemy's front line attackers, parked yourself near where they fell, and boom, you have 6 invincible Knights, 6 invincible Tauren, or 6 invincible Druids of the Claw turned against their own forces, and typically it would turn the tide of a fight.

There's a lot of reasons why that ability wouldn't work in WoW, and why Army of Dead simply makes a lot more sense.

But they didn't give it to the class they made for that unit. Hell, the two versions are even functional different. The one with the ranged attack wasn't a cooldown.

Yeah, probably because Blizzard didn't want Demon Hunters to have the Warlock version because they seem to have a huge issue with classes sharing abilities, and wanted to make a clean break from Warlock's version of the spell. However, it's important to note that Demon Hunters got what is essentially the HotS version of the spell instead. And once again, in HotS the Tinker also converts the Claw Pack into a mech (or sorts).

So, your argument is that those are the same abilities, but a Mech form for a Tinker has to a permanent form and if it isn't it is not the same ability? Seriously?

I'm saying that Blizzard was faithful to the WC3 ultimate abilities of the previous three expansion classes, and there's no reason to believe they wouldn't be faithful to the Tinker's ultimate ability as well. That ultimate ability is mech piloting.

A random Orc Farmer is supposed to know that one of those is built by a tinker and one is built by an Engineer? He's supposed to know the ins and outs of those things and what they produce? C'mon man.

I thought the point of this exercise was seeing if an Orc farmer would be able to tell the difference between a janky Goblin mech and a less janky Goblin mech.

So the claw pack is optional to the theme, despit being very present in the materials you quote, but the mech somehow is not?

The entire point of the concept is the mech, because the Claw Pack itself is a mech of sorts as well. Once you get Robo Goblin, you can flip from the claw pack to the mech at will, and most of the time you stay in the mech because it's faster, stronger, repairable, and capable of smashing buildings. In terms of a class, a Claw Pack would be rather redundant.

Yeah. And it quite literally wrapped all around the Pandaren. They were very, very present every step of the way. They were an incredibly pivotal part of the story. Are you trying to suggest that an Undermine story wouldn't be heavily wrapped around Goblins in the same way?

They were present as allies and as individuals we needed to help. If we have an Undermine expansion, we would only be in Undermine to assist the Goblins, and based on lore, Undermine is filled with all sorts of races and creatures. I really don't think that people would lose their minds if your quest giver is a Goblin and that Goblin sends you into a Sluicetown dungeon to clean up some chemically altered monsters.

And I don't disagree. MoP was by far my favourite expansion. I just don't think that Blizzard is all that likely to go down that road again.

Well why not? They made a ton of money off of it, and they know that it's highly regarded by the community. In addition, the community itself has expressed a desire to calm down on the cosmic extra dimensional adventures and have a more down to earth expansion. In short, people want another MoP.

I don't see it that way though. Sure, characters from WC3 are still around. Why wouldn't they be? But we;ve also done a lot to take us past that point. Multiple Horde leaders. New characters taking central focus. Characters from WC3 dying. New areas opening up and new stories being told. The story from WC3 was very narrow and specific, which makes sense for the game. We've moved in a ton of different directions since then. Of course popular xharacters from that game are still around and get used, but we've hit a point where that's not needed anymore. We can actually get new stories featuring new heroes and villains.

I think here we've entered more your opinion where you feel that WoW needs to move on from WC3. I can see how someone would make that argument. However, WoW hasn't moved far beyond WC3 and still rely on it to rope in long time Warcraft fans and keep their story going. You are starting to see more WoW-centric characters come into their own like Anduin, Bolvar, Mekkatorque, Greymane, Nathanos, etc. But by and large, people still love Jaina, Thrall, Tyrande, Malfurion, Gazlowe, Rexxar, etc.

And of course Sylvanas is the most popular Warcraft character at the moment.

The point though is that Blizzard is nowhere near "far beyond" WC3.

Because that's very sci fi as it is, but is far easier to compartmentalize when it's the random NPC here and there that you seldom see, as opposed to an entire class based around Robotech.

And why would I want to turn WoW into Robotech, when this is so much more interesting?

Well it wouldn't be us turning WoW into "robotech", it would be Blizzard, since the mech-based Tinker is their tech hero concept.

- - - Updated - - -

goblin and gnome stuff is steam punk.

Legion and draenei stuff is more of sci-fi

I agree with this.

[Unbelievable]

It's listed as a notable Fel Reaver, but isn't on the list of notable shredders.

I wonder why.....



Because it's actually an arrow.



They'll make abilities that can work with both races. Deth Lazor for example.



Except the difference being that there are actually Blademaster abilities available to Warriors, whereas there were no DK abilities were available to Warriors.



No, WoD was all about Orcs and it remained that way throughout. It switched from Grom in the beginning to Gul'dan in the end.

The Pandaren in Pandaria were pretty much an after thought.



Where's the hypocrisy? I said that the Claw Pack is a high possibility due to the precedence of Blizzard sticking fairly close to their WC3 concepts in the previous three expansion classes. However, I personally prefer them going all mech.

I guess we're both right:
"Reaves is a multi-function fel reaver-shredder summoned by engineers via [Reaves Battery] or [Rechargeable Reaves Battery]"

An arrow the size of a rocket with a fiery trail?

So, they'll pass on abilities like Force Shield, Spark bot, World Enlarger and Discombobulation?

An ability. Singular. Bladestorm. That's like expecting a player to play a Warlock with Death Coil before the addition of Death Knights.

It started out as Iron Horde being the threat to Legion being the threat.

An afterthought? are you kidding? the whole premise of the expansion is Mists of Pandaria. When they revealed it on Blizzcon they showed the Pandaren race, the monk class and Pandaria as a continent.

A possibility? You demanded that we have claw pack. You emphasized how important it is to the fantasy of a Tinker. You're just flipping agendas like you flip pancakes.

The entire point of the concept is the mech, because the Claw Pack itself is a mech of sorts as well. Once you get Robo Goblin, you can flip from the claw pack to the mech at will, and most of the time you stay in the mech because it's faster, stronger, repairable, and capable of smashing buildings. In terms of a class, a Claw Pack would be rather redundant.

I agree with this.

Unless, you can't be healed while in mech form. And, why would Blizzard make the Claw pack for both the WC3 and HotS version if it's, simply, useless?

You don't seem to agree with that. What you want is Iron Man. What the Tinker technology is steampunk.

[qwerty123456]

A possibility? You demanded that we have claw pack. You emphasized how important it is to the fantasy of a Tinker. You're just flipping agendas like you flip pancakes.

Unless, you can't be healed while in mech form. And, why would Blizzard make the Claw pack for both the WC3 and HotS version if it's, simply, useless?

You don't seem to agree with that. What you want is Iron Man. What the Tinker technology is steampunk.

Yeah it's crazy how easily he flips to suit his agenda. He was constantly going on about how engineers aren't tinkers cause they don't invent things on their own they use schematics and Tinkers should be this amazingly smart create shit on the spot type of person then he going 200 pages on G.M.O.D when the dude who pilots it knows very little about tech and didn't even invent the thing.

[Imperator4321]

The mech form is the Tinker ultimate ability from WC3. So yes it will be implemented. In fact, my money is on the claw pack being completely replaced by the mech because in BFA Blizzard added various mechanics to mech-using NPCs. You see this with Gazlowe in Island Expeditions, the Mech Jockeys in MOTHERLODE, and Exarch Orelis during the Mag'har recruit scenario. It would be rather redundant to have a claw pack AND a mech.

Just because it was an ultimate ability in WC3 doesn't mean it will become a core aspect of a class across all specs, here is a list of all the "ultimate abilities" from WC3 that became standard rotation abilities that work on short cooldowns or resource: Earthquake, Starfall, Death and Decay.

Here are the "ultimate abilities" that became standard big (1.5 minutes or more) dps/tanking/healing cooldowns specific to certain specs: Tranquility (Restoration Druid), Storm, Earth, And Fire (Windwalker), Animate Dead/Army of the Dead (Unholy)

The only "ultimate ability" that became a core element of a WoW class in the transition between WC3 and WoW is Metamorphosis which became a big dps/tanking cooldown ability and several talent choices allowing for temporary Metamorphosis, this is the only Ultimate which created a core gameplay element of a WoW class, all the others became spec specific abilities that operate as either a rotation, resource or cooldown based system.

I'm genuinely not getting this perception you've invented that the WC3 hero units are created on a near 1:1 transition majority of "ultimate abilities" belonging to WC3 units didn't even get put into WoW (if thats the case wheres a combat rez for paladins or wheres phoenix summon for fire mages) WC3 is not held on this sacred pedestal, Blizzard mines it for concepts the same way they mine other material for concepts, like how chinese culture/mysticism became the basis for literally everything in the Monk class that didn't involve brewing like Celestials (who are based on the cardinal guardians), Wuxia-style martial arts and Chi

If a Tinker (or whatever the class would be called) gets put into to WoW is there a chance that some form of mech would be utilized? yes, Will it become a ability used by all potential specs? I doubt it since the gameplay concept a "mech" creates is A: better armor B: better melee capabilities C: stronger weaponry (cannons, flamethrowers), majority of those in gameplay terms to me sound like tanking concepts, especially given that the common perception of a Engineer/Artificer style class is that of a primarily ranged fighter (guns, explosives, ect) if the Tinker ultimate Robo-Goblin became a WoW ability I see it being a cooldown or a "form" for a tanking spec built around the concept of using a mech instead of an ability that all specs would have.

A possibility? You demanded that we have claw pack. You emphasized how important it is to the fantasy of a Tinker. You're just flipping agendas like you flip pancakes.

I'm actually sort of impressed at the degree of moving the goalpost moving on display all in the name of keeping a class limited to some of the least popular races in the game.

First it was that visuals of a Tinker class don't suit anyone but Goblins/Gnomes which is a fair point but plenty of race/class combos have inconsistent visuals such as Kul Tiran & Zandalari druids having unique shapeshift visuals but standard visuals for their spells, or Night Elf Priests having golden light instead of moonlight visuals, Draenei mechs being unique but having more standard visuals isn't that out of the question, and stuff like Dwarf/Orc engineering isn't even that visually different from Gnome/Goblin engineering.

Then it was that no race but Gnome/Goblins fit Claw-packs due to their height which is flawed for a number of reasons one is assuming that claw-packs would be a core part of the class (visuals like that aren't usually attached to models like that on a permanent basis look at DH wings.), second would be the visual/animation issues claw-packs create even with dimunitive races, also ignoring that dwarves are only marginally taller than gnomes/goblins so wouldn't even have said issues.)

Then it became that only Gnome/Goblin mechs are small enough to not create issues with size in terms of clarity for dungeon/raid mechanics which is another potentially fair point but ignores that A: is the Gnome/Goblin mech seriously only going to be 6-7ft tall? that would look utterly pathetic on a visual/power fantasy level B: there are workarounds such as having larger races sit/crouch to operate a mech C: Dwarves are once again only marginally taller than Gnomes/Goblins and wouldn't have these size issues.

[Teriz]

I guess we're both right:
"Reaves is a multi-function fel reaver-shredder summoned by engineers via [Reaves Battery] or [Rechargeable Reaves Battery]"

Yeah, that's a typo because it doesn't look like a Shredder it looks like a Reaver, and it was introduced in Legion. Also it's listed as a Reaver on the Reaver page and its not listed as a Shredder at all on the Shredder mech page.

An arrow the size of a rocket with a fiery trail?

It's supposed to be an arrow with a stick of dynamite attached. They simply use that for the graphic.

So, they'll pass on abilities like Force Shield, Spark bot, World Enlarger and Discombobulation?

Robo Goblin has 2 types of shields in HotS, so I don't see why there wouldn't be a force field. Beyond that, you're more than likely looking at abilities similar to the nearly 2 dozen Tinker abilities and passives in WC3, HotS, and Island Expedition.

An ability. Singular. Bladestorm. That's like expecting a player to play a Warlock with Death Coil before the addition of Death Knights.

Not really, since the main point of a Blademaster is a master swordsman. You can accomplish that with Arms Warrior.

An afterthought? are you kidding? the whole premise of the expansion is Mists of Pandaria. When they revealed it on Blizzcon they showed the Pandaren race, the monk class and Pandaria as a continent.

Yeah, because a new race, new class, and a new continent were the main selling points of that expansion.

Unless, you can't be healed while in mech form. And, why would Blizzard make the Claw pack for both the WC3 and HotS version if it's, simply, useless?

You don't seem to agree with that. What you want is Iron Man. What the Tinker technology is steampunk.

The Claw Pack was in WC3 and HotS to make a Goblin character easier to see from the top-down perspective of the RTS game. Blizzard made it part of its ability set by connecting it to Robo Goblin.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because it was an ultimate ability in WC3 doesn't mean it will become a core aspect of a class across all specs, here is a list of all the "ultimate abilities" from WC3 that became standard rotation abilities that work on short cooldowns or resource: Earthquake, Starfall, Death and Decay.

Here are the "ultimate abilities" that became standard big (1.5 minutes or more) dps/tanking/healing cooldowns specific to certain specs: Tranquility (Restoration Druid), Storm, Earth, And Fire (Windwalker), Animate Dead/Army of the Dead (Unholy)

The only "ultimate ability" that became a core element of a WoW class in the transition between WC3 and WoW is Metamorphosis which became a big dps/tanking cooldown ability and several talent choices allowing for temporary Metamorphosis, this is the only Ultimate which created a core gameplay element of a WoW class, all the others became spec specific abilities that operate as either a rotation, resource or cooldown based system.

I would argue that Robo Goblin is as pivotal to the Tinker as Metamorphosis was to Demon Hunters.

I'm genuinely not getting this perception you've invented that the WC3 hero units are created on a near 1:1 transition majority of "ultimate abilities" belonging to WC3 units didn't even get put into WoW (if thats the case wheres a combat rez for paladins or wheres phoenix summon for fire mages) WC3 is not held on this sacred pedestal, Blizzard mines it for concepts the same way they mine other material for concepts, like how chinese culture/mysticism became the basis for literally everything in the Monk class that didn't involve brewing like Celestials (who are based on the cardinal guardians), Wuxia-style martial arts and Chi

You're comparing classic classes to expansion classes. Expansion classes tend to be more closely tied to their WC3 iterations and based on singular WC3 heroes whereas the classic classes were by and large amalgamations of multiple heroes that had similar thematics. Again, with that precedent in place, there's no reason not to believe that the Tinker would follow the same design pattern as the previous three expansion classes.

If a Tinker (or whatever the class would be called) gets put into to WoW is there a chance that some form of mech would be utilized? yes, Will it become a ability used by all potential specs? I doubt it since the gameplay concept a "mech" creates is A: better armor B: better melee capabilities C: stronger weaponry (cannons, flamethrowers), majority of those in gameplay terms to me sound like tanking concepts, especially given that the common perception of a Engineer/Artificer style class is that of a primarily ranged fighter (guns, explosives, ect) if the Tinker ultimate Robo-Goblin became a WoW ability I see it being a cooldown or a "form" for a tanking spec built around the concept of using a mech instead of an ability that all specs would have.

Yeah, I don't see that happening. I see Blizzard copying Druid mechanics and giving the Tinker mech piloting that mechanically works like Druid shapeshifting. It's simply too much of a layup not to do it that way, and frankly it makes perfect sense.

For a RDPS Tinker for example, instead of having high armor, they would get more mobility and farther weapon range. For a Tank Tinker, you would get higher armor, less mobility, less range and more AoE abilities. A Healing Tinker would get a medical mech that would simply have a set of healing abilities like bio grenades, healing turrets, heal bots, and healing sprays.

Beyond combat roles, you can also utilize the mech for transportation forms. For example, Gazlowe in Island Expeditions has an ability called Turbocharge. This ability allows Gazlowe to move 30% faster when outside of combat while inside his mech. I would keep that ability and expand it to give the Tinker travel forms, and do it transformer style. The various mech mounts already do this, so the base of this is already in place.

You do it that way because the main selling point of the class is the mech, and the mech is what gives the class it's uniqueness and "cool" factor. Making it a wacky variation of the Hunter class simply doesn't work.

The user base has demonstrated that they want a mech-based class in WoW akin to Mekkatorque, so give them what they want. Also I really wouldn't want to limit a mech to just tanking. DPS players are going to want to be able to pilot a mech as well.

[jellmoo]

Well why would it need to be 12 years ago? If this was a problem for the DK community, wouldn't it be an ongoing problem that they would be discussing up till now? Heck, Shaman players still gripe about 2H Enhancement, and they've been griping about that since TBC. Again, I see your point about a deviation from WC3, but this isn't really something I've ever heard DK players complain about.

Because that would be the timeframe of when the Death Knight was introduced? But again, that really, really isn't the point. The point remains that Blizzard has been willing to change what was featured in WC3 when it came time to implement something into WoW. That's really it.

Perhaps in the future Blizzard could give them something like the Paladin ability Divine Steed.

Given the mobility issues Death Knights seem to have, I'm sure players would actually love that.

No, you simply positioned yourself over a pile of corpses, used the spell and it summoned up to 6 invulnerable undead copies of the most powerful units in that pile. I don't see how you say they attacked in an organized manner. My memory of the spell was that you typically performed that ability after you had just downed your enemy's front line attackers, parked yourself near where they fell, and boom, you have 6 invincible Knights, 6 invincible Tauren, or 6 invincible Druids of the Claw turned against their own forces, and typically it would turn the tide of a fight.

The ability was strategic in nature. You would never use it if you had just a bunch of peons to rez, for example. You would use it at just the right time to get some top notch enemies to suddenly fight on your side. Then, if my memory serves me, they were under your control, so they weren't mindlessly zerging.

There's a lot of reasons why that ability wouldn't work in WoW, and why Army of Dead simply makes a lot more sense.

Even if this is true, and even if it was certainly possible for them to have created something a lot more faithful to the original, the point still stands that they changed the ability considerably. From the numbers, to the effect, to the core concept. It was radically altered when added to WoW.

Yeah, probably because Blizzard didn't want Demon Hunters to have the Warlock version because they seem to have a huge issue with classes sharing abilities, and wanted to make a clean break from Warlock's version of the spell. However, it's important to note that Demon Hunters got what is essentially the HotS version of the spell instead. And once again, in HotS the Tinker also converts the Claw Pack into a mech (or sorts).

Sure, but the point stands that at the end of the day, the version of Metamorphosis that Demon Hunters got was different in WoW than it was in WC3. Another example of them being willing to change abilities from that game.

I'm saying that Blizzard was faithful to the WC3 ultimate abilities of the previous three expansion classes, and there's no reason to believe they wouldn't be faithful to the Tinker's ultimate ability as well. That ultimate ability is mech piloting.

And I'm saying they weren't faithful. I literally just showed that. That they were more than willing to change the abilities. So let's say that they do include mech piloting just because it's the ultimate from WC3. It wouldn't be all that terribly unlikely that they would change how it worked. Instead of a permanent form make it a cooldown. Or a builder/spender. Heck, considering they are 3 for 3 for changing the ultimate abilities of the classes they've added after release, they are probably more likely to change the Tinker Ultimate.

I thought the point of this exercise was seeing if an Orc farmer would be able to tell the difference between a janky Goblin mech and a less janky Goblin mech.

No. Remember, the Orc Farmer is encountering a Tinker and Engineering riding a mech and is somehow supposed to know which one is which, as they both ride their janky, shaking mechs around that share a similar Goblin aesthetic.

The entire point of the concept is the mech, because the Claw Pack itself is a mech of sorts as well. Once you get Robo Goblin, you can flip from the claw pack to the mech at will, and most of the time you stay in the mech because it's faster, stronger, repairable, and capable of smashing buildings. In terms of a class, a Claw Pack would be rather redundant.

And if the Mech is a cooldown or a builder/spender, you would be spending a lot of time using your claw pack for... well... claw packy things. This would both allow them to faithfully recreat the concept as a claw pack was originally part of it, and also make the claw pack a useful thing and a unique part of being a Tinker. Win/win.

They were present as allies and as individuals we needed to help. If we have an Undermine expansion, we would only be in Undermine to assist the Goblins, and based on lore, Undermine is filled with all sorts of races and creatures. I really don't think that people would lose their minds if your quest giver is a Goblin and that Goblin sends you into a Sluicetown dungeon to clean up some chemically altered monsters.

Lose their minds? Of course not. I just don't think that Blizzard would bank on getting those sweet, sweet pre-orders based on an expansion that so heavily featured such an unpopular race. I think they've been a lot more careful ever since WoD when it comes to the presentation of their expansions and how closely they tie in with a single race.

Well why not? They made a ton of money off of it, and they know that it's highly regarded by the community. In addition, the community itself has expressed a desire to calm down on the cosmic extra dimensional adventures and have a more down to earth expansion. In short, people want another MoP.

Maybe you're right. I just don't see it accomplished using that as source material. It feels way too narrow of focus, and that focus just seems to unpopular. I mean, I could see them making an... ugh... Elf based expansion, given the popularity of the Elf races, but a Goblin one? Ehh....

I think here we've entered more your opinion where you feel that WoW needs to move on from WC3. I can see how someone would make that argument. However, WoW hasn't moved far beyond WC3 and still rely on it to rope in long time Warcraft fans and keep their story going. You are starting to see more WoW-centric characters come into their own like Anduin, Bolvar, Mekkatorque, Greymane, Nathanos, etc. But by and large, people still love Jaina, Thrall, Tyrande, Malfurion, Gazlowe, Rexxar, etc.

I honestly think they have in that direction quite a bit. Major lore characters have shifted around quite a bit, and we've had the narrative shift focus to new people leading their respective factions. Do WC3 characters still exist and are popular? Absolutely. But We are also now in the grips of our very first expansion where the big bad isn't a character or figure from Warcraft's past. That's a pretty telling indicator that they have moved on.

And of course Sylvanas is the most popular Warcraft character at the moment.

How on earth is Sylvanas the most popular Warcraft character? She's pretty much universally reviled.

The point though is that Blizzard is nowhere near "far beyond" WC3.

Maybe "far beyond" is hyperbole, but I do think they have moved past their need to lean on it, yeah.

Well it wouldn't be us turning WoW into "robotech", it would be Blizzard, since the mech-based Tinker is their tech hero concept.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then there's a pretty good chance it's a Veritech fighter.

[Teriz]

And if the Mech is a cooldown or a builder/spender, you would be spending a lot of time using your claw pack for... well... claw packy things. This would both allow them to faithfully recreat the concept as a claw pack was originally part of it, and also make the claw pack a useful thing and a unique part of being a Tinker. Win/win.

I had a lengthy response, but it got eaten up by the forum somehow. Anyway, I wanted to say that I could actually see the RDPS spec go that route. It reminds me of old demonology (WoD), which was a solid spec and pretty dynamic. However, that play style wouldn’t work for the tank spec, and for tanking a permanent mech would be a better way to go.

[razorpax]

How is this dumpster fire going still??

Why is it going???

I figure “hey new pages maybe new class discussions” nope it’s the same tinker BS back and forth over and over fuck me man

You all know that no matter what you say to Teriz no matter how many times you show facts and no matter how much you show him to be a turnstile with a midget kink that he will never relent. It’s well over 120 pages of just god damn tinker BS with 50 of it being Teriz making a claim 20 pages of ppl pointing out he’s shit and 50 more of “well here’s the new requirement”

There’s no discussion here that can’t be solved by you three going into discord and screeching in voice comms because that’s essentially what’s going on right now with no sense of coherent thought in the entire chat.

Let him wank himself off to the fan concept he’s obsessed with because by the end he will simply change it to fit reality and claim “ha I told you” I mean the guy said ghostbuster tinkers would be a thing in shadowlands over necromancer last peak season.


Somebody for the love of god either burn this trash fire from the internet or ignore the short bus

[Unbelievable]

Yeah it's crazy how easily he flips to suit his agenda. He was constantly going on about how engineers aren't tinkers cause they don't invent things on their own they use schematics and Tinkers should be this amazingly smart create shit on the spot type of person then he going 200 pages on G.M.O.D when the dude who pilots it knows very little about tech and didn't even invent the thing.

That's called being a "Master Manipulator".

Now that people are, actually, discussing the Tinker concept, and he doesn't need to convince them anymore, using the claw pack argument, he's unloading his true intentions - diverting people into a constant mech Tinker idea.

Just because it was an ultimate ability in WC3 doesn't mean it will become a core aspect of a class across all specs, here is a list of all the "ultimate abilities" from WC3 that became standard rotation abilities that work on short cooldowns or resource: Earthquake, Starfall, Death and Decay.

Here are the "ultimate abilities" that became standard big (1.5 minutes or more) dps/tanking/healing cooldowns specific to certain specs: Tranquility (Restoration Druid), Storm, Earth, And Fire (Windwalker), Animate Dead/Army of the Dead (Unholy)

The only "ultimate ability" that became a core element of a WoW class in the transition between WC3 and WoW is Metamorphosis which became a big dps/tanking cooldown ability and several talent choices allowing for temporary Metamorphosis, this is the only Ultimate which created a core gameplay element of a WoW class, all the others became spec specific abilities that operate as either a rotation, resource or cooldown based system.

I'm genuinely not getting this perception you've invented that the WC3 hero units are created on a near 1:1 transition majority of "ultimate abilities" belonging to WC3 units didn't even get put into WoW (if thats the case wheres a combat rez for paladins or wheres phoenix summon for fire mages) WC3 is not held on this sacred pedestal, Blizzard mines it for concepts the same way they mine other material for concepts, like how chinese culture/mysticism became the basis for literally everything in the Monk class that didn't involve brewing like Celestials (who are based on the cardinal guardians), Wuxia-style martial arts and Chi

If a Tinker (or whatever the class would be called) gets put into to WoW is there a chance that some form of mech would be utilized? yes, Will it become a ability used by all potential specs? I doubt it since the gameplay concept a "mech" creates is A: better armor B: better melee capabilities C: stronger weaponry (cannons, flamethrowers), majority of those in gameplay terms to me sound like tanking concepts, especially given that the common perception of a Engineer/Artificer style class is that of a primarily ranged fighter (guns, explosives, ect) if the Tinker ultimate Robo-Goblin became a WoW ability I see it being a cooldown or a "form" for a tanking spec built around the concept of using a mech instead of an ability that all specs would have.



I'm actually sort of impressed at the degree of moving the goalpost moving on display all in the name of keeping a class limited to some of the least popular races in the game.

First it was that visuals of a Tinker class don't suit anyone but Goblins/Gnomes which is a fair point but plenty of race/class combos have inconsistent visuals such as Kul Tiran & Zandalari druids having unique shapeshift visuals but standard visuals for their spells, or Night Elf Priests having golden light instead of moonlight visuals, Draenei mechs being unique but having more standard visuals isn't that out of the question, and stuff like Dwarf/Orc engineering isn't even that visually different from Gnome/Goblin engineering.

Then it was that no race but Gnome/Goblins fit Claw-packs due to their height which is flawed for a number of reasons one is assuming that claw-packs would be a core part of the class (visuals like that aren't usually attached to models like that on a permanent basis look at DH wings.), second would be the visual/animation issues claw-packs create even with dimunitive races, also ignoring that dwarves are only marginally taller than gnomes/goblins so wouldn't even have said issues.)

Then it became that only Gnome/Goblin mechs are small enough to not create issues with size in terms of clarity for dungeon/raid mechanics which is another potentially fair point but ignores that A: is the Gnome/Goblin mech seriously only going to be 6-7ft tall? that would look utterly pathetic on a visual/power fantasy level B: there are workarounds such as having larger races sit/crouch to operate a mech C: Dwarves are once again only marginally taller than Gnomes/Goblins and wouldn't have these size issues.

As i said above - "Master Manipulator".

We might have not seen eye to eye in regards to Dark Ranger, Priestess of the Moon, Sea Witch, Shadow Hunter, Blademaster and Warden but, at least, i have been consistent.

Yeah, that's a typo because it doesn't look like a Shredder it looks like a Reaver, and it was introduced in Legion. Also it's listed as a Reaver on the Reaver page and its not listed as a Shredder at all on the Shredder mech page.



It's supposed to be an arrow with a stick of dynamite attached. They simply use that for the graphic.



Robo Goblin has 2 types of shields in HotS, so I don't see why there wouldn't be a force field. Beyond that, you're more than likely looking at abilities similar to the nearly 2 dozen Tinker abilities and passives in WC3, HotS, and Island Expedition.



Not really, since the main point of a Blademaster is a master swordsman. You can accomplish that with Arms Warrior.



Yeah, because a new race, new class, and a new continent were the main selling points of that expansion.



The Claw Pack was in WC3 and HotS to make a Goblin character easier to see from the top-down perspective of the RTS game. Blizzard made it part of its ability set by connecting it to Robo Goblin.

You do it that way because the main selling point of the class is the mech, and the mech is what gives the class it's uniqueness and "cool" factor. Making it a wacky variation of the Hunter class simply doesn't work.

The user base has demonstrated that they want a mech-based class in WoW akin to Mekkatorque, so give them what they want. Also I really wouldn't want to limit a mech to just tanking. DPS players are going to want to be able to pilot a mech as well.

How convenient that it is a typo on my part but, not on yours.

Once again, showing that they're inconsistent with their visual representation of abilities.

Oh, so now Island Expeditions are canon Tinker abilities? Yet, Mekkatorque isn't? how convenient. Do these dozens of abilities have World Enlarger, Discombobulation and Spark bot?

The main point of a Blademaster is being a Samurai. An affliction Warlock's necromantic themes can accomplish the Death Knight fantasy, if you rely on Death Coil as a representative.

Selling points are the main themes of the expansion. Do you think allied races had nothing to do with the faction war? does Torghast has nothing to do with the Death theme of Shadowlands? Do Demon Hunters have nothing to do with the demonic theme of Legion? You are delusional if you think MoP isn't about Pandaren. Yes, the story diverged into Garrosh but, the Pandaren are the central part.

So, the claw pack is, merely, a visual identification? Then, why argue about the differences of a Hunter/Engineer explosives to those of a Tinker using a claw pack, like you have been doing for the past 100 pages?

The main selling point of a Demon Hunter is the Metamorphosis. It's the cool factor. They don't base it on that.

Oh, so now you speak on behalf of the playerbase? Because the "playerbase"'s desires align, suspiciously, with yours.
I'll tell you what it is. It's your egocentrism talking on behalf of the "playerbase".

How is this dumpster fire going still??

Why is it going???

I figure “hey new pages maybe new class discussions” nope it’s the same tinker BS back and forth over and over fuck me man

You all know that no matter what you say to Teriz no matter how many times you show facts and no matter how much you show him to be a turnstile with a midget kink that he will never relent. It’s well over 120 pages of just god damn tinker BS with 50 of it being Teriz making a claim 20 pages of ppl pointing out he’s shit and 50 more of “well here’s the new requirement”

There’s no discussion here that can’t be solved by you three going into discord and screeching in voice comms because that’s essentially what’s going on right now with no sense of coherent thought in the entire chat.

Let him wank himself off to the fan concept he’s obsessed with because by the end he will simply change it to fit reality and claim “ha I told you” I mean the guy said ghostbuster tinkers would be a thing in shadowlands over necromancer last peak season.


Somebody for the love of god either burn this trash fire from the internet or ignore the short bus

You got that right

The only problem is that he's a loud minority. and loud minorities, often, silence the normative majority, using manipulation and demagogy.

Someone have got to keep him and his bullshit in check. Otherwise, people who read this thread would think the Tinker is the only prime candidate out there, and no other classes are.

[Teriz]

How convenient that it is a typo on my part but, not on yours.

Once again, showing that they're inconsistent with their visual representation of abilities.

Which doesn't change the fact that it's supposed to be an arrow with a stick of dynamite. Hence why you can shoot it from a bow.

Oh, so now Island Expeditions are canon Tinker abilities? Yet, Mekkatorque isn't? how convenient. Do these dozens of abilities have World Enlarger, Discombobulation and Spark bot?

They always have been. They're abilities alongside HotS Tinker abilities, so we should assume that they're part of the concept as well.

Mekkatorque's abilities are less likely, but still possible.

Selling points are the main themes of the expansion. Do you think allied races had nothing to do with the faction war? does Torghast has nothing to do with the Death theme of Shadowlands? Do Demon Hunters have nothing to do with the demonic theme of Legion? You are delusional if you think MoP isn't about Pandaren. Yes, the story diverged into Garrosh but, the Pandaren are the central part.

Yeah, I never said MoP wasn't about Pandaren (and even that is arguable), I said that MoP didn't center on Pandaren.

So, the claw pack is, merely, a visual identification? Then, why argue about the differences of a Hunter/Engineer explosives to those of a Tinker using a claw pack, like you have been doing for the past 100 pages?

No, the Claw Pack is a possible ability within the Tinker class. Simply because I personally would prefer a pure mech concept doesn't mean that the contraption doesn't have a high chance of making it into the actual class. Why? Because it's part of Tinker lore, and Blizzard has used it as a significant marker for the Tinker concept since WC3, and is seen over and over again in Warcraft content.

The main selling point of a Demon Hunter is the Metamorphosis. It's the cool factor. They don't base it on that.

They based it on that so much that they wouldn't bring the class into the game until Metamorphosis was decoupled from the Warlock class.

Oh, so now you speak on behalf of the playerbase? Because the "playerbase"'s desires align, suspiciously, with yours.
I'll tell you what it is. It's your egocentrism talking on behalf of the "playerbase".

Why else do you think the Tinker beats out other classes in multiple polls? It's not because people have a "tech hunter" concept in their heads. It's because they see Mekkatorque, Gazlowe, Gallywix, or Blackfuse and want a class that emulates that concept.

You got that right

The only problem is that he's a loud minority. and loud minorities, often, silence the normative majority, using manipulation and demagogy.

Someone have got to keep him and his bullshit in check. Otherwise, people who read this thread would think the Tinker is the only prime candidate out there, and no other classes are.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

I definitely wouldn't consider myself a minority.

[Deneios]

Next person to say "tinker" is a dirty mouth breather and should go and apologize a tree for the oxygen they have wasted thus far.
New class ideas that dont revolve around tech, sylvanas or necromancy since those ships have sailed a away in legion, bfa or SL

[Ielenia]

Then why are these here instead of inside the profession;

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=135574/cluster-rocket
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=148085/healing-spray

Engineering has plenty of rochets, and has healing lasers and bandage gun.

Also the HotS abilities were altered to fit into WoW as well;

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261516/rock-it-turret
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261752/deth-lazor
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261788/grav-o-bomb-3000
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=261739/xplodium-charge
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=276851...goblin-defense

Engineering has turrets, lasers, bombs and shields, so I don't know what the issue is.

So again, why aren't they in the profession if the Tinker and Alchemist were turned into a profession?

Read above. Their concepts are in the profession with functionalities similar enough to be considered adaptations.

Maybe they thought Army of the Dead was more appropriate. Animate Dead is used by quite a few Necromancer mobs in WoW, and it's a single skeleton summoning ability.

So what? It's a class ability. We have class abilities sharing names with other NPC abilities that do things differently.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

I definitely wouldn't consider myself a minority.

You are the minority. Because your concept is not what all the people want in a tech class. Not to mention we have people here saying they've turned away from the concept because of you, too.

[Teriz]

Engineering has plenty of rochets, and has healing lasers and bandage gun.


Engineering has turrets, lasers, bombs and shields, so I don't know what the issue is.


Read above. Their concepts are in the profession with functionalities similar enough to be considered adaptations.

But we have the translated abilities in WoW already, so why are we looking at items that don't share the name, function, or purpose of the actual Tinker/Achemist abilities from WC3 and HotS that are currently in WoW?

Also if Blizzard's goal was to translate the Tinker and Alchemist into the professions, why leave out their abilities and not translate those abilities into items?

You are the minority. Because your concept is not what all the people want in a tech class. Not to mention we have people here saying they've turned away from the concept because of you, too.

I'm sure both of those individuals were already opposed to the Tinker concept long before I came along. Put that poll back up for 10.0, and you're going to get the same results.

[Unbelievable]

Which doesn't change the fact that it's supposed to be an arrow with a stick of dynamite. Hence why you can shoot it from a bow.



They always have been. They're abilities alongside HotS Tinker abilities, so we should assume that they're part of the concept as well.

Mekkatorque's abilities are less likely, but still possible.



Yeah, I never said MoP wasn't about Pandaren (and even that is arguable), I said that MoP didn't center on Pandaren.



No, the Claw Pack is a possible ability within the Tinker class. Simply because I personally would prefer a pure mech concept doesn't mean that the contraption doesn't have a high chance of making it into the actual class. Why? Because it's part of Tinker lore, and Blizzard has used it as a significant marker for the Tinker concept since WC3, and is seen over and over again in Warcraft content.



They based it on that so much that they wouldn't bring the class into the game until Metamorphosis was decoupled from the Warlock class.



Why else do you think the Tinker beats out other classes in multiple polls? It's not because people have a "tech hunter" concept in their heads. It's because they see Mekkatorque, Gazlowe, Gallywix, or Blackfuse and want a class that emulates that concept.




https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

I definitely wouldn't consider myself a minority.

Once again, you're deciding on your own device what are appropriate Tinker abilities and what are not. Classic Teriz. A moment ago it was just WC3 and HotS. Now, it is Island Expedition, as well. But, not Mekkatorque, god forbid, the second most renown Tinker. Even though his abilities and the Island Expedition ones are from the same game. The Island Expedition AI, except for Gazlowe, aren't even famous Tinkers. But, for some reason, they come before Mekkatorque. You see how biased you are towards your Tinker concept?

Listen. BfA, like MoP, started out as a faction war expansion. Later on, it deviated towards a Void theme. Is it more about the latter or the former? I'd say it is more about the former, as that was the thing that got published at Blizzcon, not the Void stuff.

So, why are you shitting on it with your permanent mech concept? Because with it, it would be rendered, utterly, useless.

You didn't get my point. The Demon Hunter's Metamorphosis, as a sellng point, didn't factor in the decision to make it temporary or permanent. So, it isn't a factor in the Tinker, as well.

Why do i think they want a Tinker race? not because of Iron Man, that's for sure. It is because they want a steampunk inventor class, like had been portrayed in Warcraft. The mech is a part it, not its entire purpose.

No. You're a minority in this thread.

I'm sure both of those individuals were already opposed to the Tinker concept long before I came along. Put that poll back up for 10.0, and you're going to get the same results.

Never was opposed of it.
I'm opposed to you seeing only yourself.