1. #3221
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yep, feel free to talk about other class concepts. I’ll happily stay out of it. However, if you attack the Tinker concept, I will respond.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So is polling data in general useless, or just polling data here on MMOC because you want to be argumentative and move goal posts?
    Nobody has attacked the tinker concept. they have only attacked you're incredibly stupid and restrictive version of Tinker. You have never once given a legitimate point for restricting Tinker to goblin and gnomes. Literally not a single point. So you constantly move goalposts and talk in irrational circles instead of admitting you're wrong for once. As a result, we are 163 pages in because you refuse to admit you're wrong and phrase things in a way you know will spark arguments.

  2. #3222
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Nobody has attacked the tinker concept. they have only attacked you're incredibly stupid and restrictive version of Tinker. You have never once given a legitimate point for restricting Tinker to goblin and gnomes. Literally not a single point. So you constantly move goalposts and talk in irrational circles instead of admitting you're wrong for once. As a result, we are 163 pages in because you refuse to admit you're wrong and phrase things in a way you know will spark arguments.
    How is a Tinker concept that follows the WC3 and HotS Tinker just like the previous three expansion classes have followed their WC3/HotS concepts incredibly restrictive and stupid? I’m just following the precedent set by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    How have I moved goalposts? Check back every post I've said about polls. I've always been specific about Poll data here in the forums. In any niche community or forum.

    There's never a wide enough spread for the data to make sense, the way census stats for WoW realms show a grander picture of what's actually happening in the game despite particular opinions for-or-against a certain argument.

    Poll data regarding enthusiasts will be highly skewed, no matter how you look at it. The majority of WoW players never even go to forums.
    So again, who and where should we be polling instead to get more accurate data?

  3. #3223
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So again, who and where should we be polling instead to get more accurate data?
    There is none, which is why it shouldn't ever be used or mentioned as supporting evidence for or against any given argument.

    It'd be no different than citing a WoW Streamer's opinion as if it is worth anything important.

    Fan concepts for new races only exists in the realm of subjectivity and opinion. There is no evidence of anything being more or less popular than what people want to make of it. Case in point - what Covenant is most popular right now if we poll here? Chances are the results would skew much differently from any tangible census statistics. A poll here could vary differently than a poll on Reddit or a poll on the main forums.

  4. #3224
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is a Tinker concept that follows the WC3 and HotS Tinker just like the previous three expansion classes have followed their WC3/HotS concepts incredibly restrictive and stupid? I’m just following the precedent set by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So again, who and where should we be polling instead to get more accurate data?
    I'm going to continue to disregard anything you mention about HotS because it's not a Warcraft game. This is the last time I will ever acknowledge you even mentioned it. As far as WC3, if they were going to base it on the tinker in that game then why did the claw pack utterly vanish? Why don't the tinkers in the lore have ANY of the abilities they did in WC3? I'll answer for you. Because for the most part, tinkers in WC3 became engineers and clawpacks aren't canon anymore.

  5. #3225
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is none, which is why it shouldn't ever be used or mentioned as supporting evidence for or against any given argument.

    It'd be no different than citing a WoW Streamer's opinion as if it is worth anything important.

    Fan concepts for new races only exists in the realm of subjectivity and opinion. There is no evidence of anything being more or less popular than what people want to make of it. Case in point - what Covenant is most popular right now if we poll here? Chances are the results would skew much differently from any tangible census statistics. A poll here could vary differently than a poll on Reddit or a poll on the main forums.
    So once again, polling data is useless, unless multi-billion dollar companies like Activision-Blizzard use them to determine future ideas. Got it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm going to continue to disregard anything you mention about HotS because it's not a Warcraft game. This is the last time I will ever acknowledge you even mentioned it. As far as WC3, if they were going to base it on the tinker in that game then why did the claw pack utterly vanish? Why don't the tinkers in the lore have ANY of the abilities they did in WC3? I'll answer for you. Because for the most part, tinkers in WC3 became engineers and clawpacks aren't canon anymore.
    Isn’t that exactly what happened to the Pandaren Brewmaster until MoP? It didn’t exist in WoW at all, yet existed in multiple Warcraft related media for years until MoP’s release in 2012.

    Why would the Tinker be any different?

  6. #3226
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So once again, polling data is useless, unless multi-billion dollar companies like Activision-Blizzard use them to determine future ideas. Got it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Isn’t that exactly what happened to the Pandaren Brewmaster until MoP? It didn’t exist in WoW at all, yet existed in multiple Warcraft related media for years until MoP’s release in 2012.

    Why would the Tinker be any different?
    No it didn't. Unlike the pandaren brewmaster, Gazlowe and other tinkers have actually been in the game this entire time. Yet NONE of them have any of the abilities that the Tinkers in WC3 had. So that literally 100% discredits using WC3 as an explanation for how Tinker will work.

  7. #3227
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So once again, polling data is useless, unless multi-billion dollar companies like Activision-Blizzard use them to determine future ideas. Got it.
    Yes, when it comes to asking themselves what the next class should be, multi-billion dollar companies like Blizzard aren't looking to poll on MMO-C for that data.

    They just as easily move on to Shadowlands without any consideration on a new class at all because it doesn't happen to jump out at the story they're deciding to tell at the time.

  8. #3228
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No it didn't. Unlike the pandaren brewmaster, Gazlowe and other tinkers have actually been in the game this entire time. Yet NONE of them have any of the abilities that the Tinkers in WC3 had. So that literally 100% discredits using WC3 as an explanation for how Tinker will work.
    Just like the Brewmaster vendors had none of the abilities that Brewmasters had in WC3. Just because they share the name doesn't mean they're the same thing.

    Anyways, go ahead and have your conversations about other classes. Don't let me hold you back.

    To anyone else in the thread, I won't respond to any more posts. I want you guys to have a fruitful class discussion.

  9. #3229
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just like the Brewmaster vendors had none of the abilities that Brewmasters had in WC3. Just because they share the name doesn't mean they're the same thing.

    Anyways, go ahead and have your conversations about other classes. Don't let me hold you back.
    Thank you for finally confirming that tinkers in WC3 are just engineers in WoW

  10. #3230
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Thank you for finally confirming that tinkers in WC3 are just engineers in WoW
    They pretty much are.

    Blizzard has been fairly consistent of their portrayal of Engineering in WoW and in their previous games, and there are definitely direct ties to it being a profession and Engineers having been vendors in the RTS games.

    The only real shame is how professions overall have been held back from having a more significant role in the game. Engineering is a shadow of what it was back in Classic -> Wrath.

    Saronite bombs were just too exploitable as DPS boosts, but it showed the potential of what profession items can amount to if used correctly.

  11. #3231
    Tinkers have great potential and are pretty unique so I'd take that.

    Sure engineering is a thing, but tbh a profession that gives you a bit of utility such as gliders, mailbox etc doesn't stop tinkers from becoming a class.

    Other ideas such as necromancers are intersting too, but they are imo too similar to already existing classes.
    Warlocks lost quite a bit of their identity and spells when they first added DK's and then DH's
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2021-01-22 at 12:47 AM.

  12. #3232
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    False. Under no circumstance does items serve the same overall function and purpose as class abilities.
    Of course they can. An engineering rocket can do damage so can a goblins rocket Barrage. An engineers slowfall serves the same purpose of a priests slowfall. Wormhole generators serve the same purpose as a mages teleport etc....

  13. #3233
    La la la la~ LemonDemonGirl's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Vancouver Island, BC
    Posts
    2,943
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Guys, drop the Tinker talk please. Teriz is incapable of listening to anyone's point unless it supports his narrative. Just ignore him and lets talk about something else.
    How about we talk about a Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter class?
    I don't play WoW anymore smh.

  14. #3234
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    How about we talk about a Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter class?
    Aren't these just shadow priests with some troll flavour?

    Blizzard specifically didn't want to add sentinels, grunts, rangers etc, but instead keep classes more general and easily applicable to other races.

    Now sure, DH's exist and they are elf specific, but they were also unique enough IMO
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2021-01-22 at 12:52 AM.

  15. #3235
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would argue that Robo Goblin is as pivotal to the Tinker as Metamorphosis was to Demon Hunters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're comparing classic classes to expansion classes. Expansion classes tend to be more closely tied to their WC3 iterations and based on singular WC3 heroes whereas the classic classes were by and large amalgamations of multiple heroes that had similar thematics. Again, with that precedent in place, there's no reason not to believe that the Tinker would follow the same design pattern as the previous three expansion classes.
    Question where is the Wuxia martial arts, Chi manipulation, Mists and August Celestials in the WC3 brewmaster, I could just as easily argue that the WC3 tinker will be used as the inspiration for a Tank spec where the other specs would draw from other inspirations or create new things the same way only 1/3rd of the Monk Class owes any of it's gameplay, identity or themes to the WC3 Brewmaster. Same applies to Death Knights and to a lesser extent Demon Hunters where is the frost and blood magic in the WC3 Death Knight, they took Frost magic from Liches and Frostwyrms and the San'layn were entirely invented for Wrath of the Lich King, where are the Sigils and Soul Fragments in the WC3 Demon Hunter hero?

    This conception that a Tinker/technology/science class would be solely inspired by it's WC3 counterpart is based on a precedent you've created from nothing that Blizzard has this unnerving devotion to how things were depicted back in WC3 a game that came out nearly 2 decades ago and they've spent those decades retconning or ignoring it, you've created a non-existant dichotomy between "expansion" and "classic" classes when both use almost the exact same design philosophy of using WC3 units as a base and adding new or related concepts to create a more cohesive identity/theme.

    The main selling point of Druids is shapeshifting and yet Restoration Druids have no baseline abilities that utilize the shapeshifting mechanics for their specs gameplay, theres more to a technology/science theme than just mechs, theres turrets, devices, gadgets, explosives, chemistry/alchemy, advanced weaponry (cannons, flamethrowers, crank guns, ect), a Technology/Science class that doesn't have 100% uptime on mech use doesn't automatically become a "wacky hunter" same way Demon hunters didn't just become "edgy rogues" or Death Knights "edgy paladins" or monks "wacky rogues", Blizzard has a abundance of sources they can draw inspiration from both within their own IP's and outside for inspiration yet you want them to artifically limit themselves to being inspired by stuff from a single game that came out 2 decades ago (Tinker hero) and stuff directly related to that (Gazlowe in HotS and WoW).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is a Tinker concept that follows the WC3 and HotS Tinker just like the previous three expansion classes have followed their WC3/HotS concepts incredibly restrictive and stupid? I’m just following the precedent set by Blizzard.
    There is no "precident set by blizzard" that says classes can only draw inspiration from what came from WC3, compare the Death Knight, Demon Hunter, Paladin, Archmage/Blood mage/Sorceress, Priest, Keeper of the Grove, Farseer/Shadow Hunter/Witch Doctor/Shaman to what their WoW counterparts ultimately evolved into, there some of the original concept still there but they changed and evolved all of them to either fit better in an MMO setting or to create a more cohesive or diverse identity.

    2/3rds of the Monk class didn't even come from the warcraft setting/WC3 it was inspired by chinese/east asian martial arts & monasticism/mysticism, If blizzard followed this "precedent" then the Monk class as we know it wouldn't even exist because all that would be there is brews, which make up 1/3rd of the current monk class
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-01-22 at 01:20 AM.

  16. #3236
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    How about we talk about a Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter class?
    I would fucking kill for a Shadow Hunter class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Aren't these just shadow priests with some troll flavour?

    Blizzard specifically didn't want to add sentinels, grunts, rangers etc, but instead keep classes more general and easily applicable to other races.

    Now sure, DH's exist and they are elf specific, but they were also unique enough IMO
    Shadow Hunters are more like shamans, actually but have vastly different capabilities in a lot of ways. A class that finally utilizes voodoo as a power source would be fantastic.

  17. #3237
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    False. Under no circumstance does items serve the same overall function and purpose as class abilities.
    I never said "class abilities". I said "Warcraft 3 units' abilities". There is a difference. And "dealing damage to enemies", "protecting/healing allies" and "upgrading yourself" sound like the overall function and purpose as the abilities from Warcraft 3.

    Because the class isn’t playable yet.
    Irrelevant. The important point is that the engineering abilities are playable right now, while the ones you point at are not, which is why I'm using them as comparisons.

    So does that mean that arrows are arrows? Does that mean we get to stop talking about the Dark Ranger class?
    Not even close to the same ballpark. Tinkers and engineers have the same theme concept: technology. All their abilities revolve around that theme. Dark rangers and hunters don't have the same theme, and hunters are not spellcasters, much less the necromancer type.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  18. #3238
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    How about we talk about a Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter class?
    I think the biggest issue is making something distinct enough so that it isn't just a variety of Shaman.

    I love the idea. The Witch Doctor in D3 was frickin' awesome, and I'd love to see something stylistically like that in WoW. But that would step on the Shaman's toes quite a bit.

    Alternately I'd love to see something based off of Bwonsamdi. I've never been a fan of Necromancers, but the sheer style and fun he brings could make for an amazing spin on a Necromancer/Witch Doctor type of class.

  19. #3239
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Of course they can. An engineering rocket can do damage so can a goblins rocket Barrage. An engineers slowfall serves the same purpose of a priests slowfall. Wormhole generators serve the same purpose as a mages teleport etc....
    Replace your abilities with engineering items and do some quests at your character's level. Make a video so we can see how much progress you (don't) make.

  20. #3240
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is a Tinker concept that follows the WC3 and HotS Tinker just like the previous three expansion classes have followed their WC3/HotS concepts incredibly restrictive and stupid? I’m just following the precedent set by Blizzard.
    Death Knight was human-only in WC3. It's open for all races in WoW.
    Monk was pandaren-only in WC3. It's open for almost all races in WoW.

    Gnomes and goblins are also two of the least played races in this game.

    With all that in mind, there is no logical reason to restrict the tech class to gnome/goblin only.

    And vulpera are just not tinker-worthy material. They're not a technology-oriented race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just like the Brewmaster vendors had none of the abilities that Brewmasters had in WC3.
    Because the pre-MoP brewmasters were not the Pandaren Brewmaster representatives.

    The brewmaster NPCs in WoW, prior to Mists of Pandaria, were just cooks that brew beers. They were "brew masters", not "Warcraft 3 Pandaren Brewmaster" NPC.

    Your equating the brew vendors in WoW to the WC3 Pandaren Brewmaster unit is nonsensical at best, asinine at worst.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •