1. #3241
    La la la la~ LemonDemonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I think the biggest issue is making something distinct enough so that it isn't just a variety of Shaman.

    I love the idea. The Witch Doctor in D3 was frickin' awesome, and I'd love to see something stylistically like that in WoW. But that would step on the Shaman's toes quite a bit.

    Alternately I'd love to see something based off of Bwonsamdi. I've never been a fan of Necromancers, but the sheer style and fun he brings could make for an amazing spin on a Necromancer/Witch Doctor type of class.
    I would literally die (ok, not really), if Blizzard decided to use Bwonsamdi as the 'base' for a new Necromancer class! It would be soo refreshing to see a death magic user that isn't associated in any way with the Scourge/Ebon Blade

    But, would it be a Hero Class?
    Last edited by LemonDemonGirl; 2021-01-22 at 01:26 AM.
    I don't play WoW anymore smh.

  2. #3242
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Question where is the Wuxia martial arts,
    Storm, Earth, Fire.

    Chi manipulation
    Implied via Breath of Fire and SEF.

    Mists and August Celestials in the WC3 brewmaster,
    Healing spec is to be expected in a monk class concept. Blizzard simply created one based on Pandaren lore established in WC3 and of course is part of the Brewmaster's lore as well.

    I could just as easily argue that the WC3 tinker will be used as the inspiration for a Tank spec where the other specs would draw from other inspirations or create new things the same way only 1/3rd of the Monk Class owes any of it's gameplay, identity or themes to the WC3 Brewmaster. Same applies to Death Knights and to a lesser extent Demon Hunters where is the frost and blood magic in the WC3 Death Knight, they took Frost magic from Liches and Frostwyrms and the San'layn were entirely invented for Wrath of the Lich King, where are the Sigils and Soul Fragments in the WC3 Demon Hunter hero?
    Frost comes from the Lich, Blood comes from the lore of the Death Knights vampiric runic blades in WC3. All three are aspects of Necromancy, and the DK itself is the Necromancer hero of WC3. Obviously a Necromancer class would encompass all three concepts of necromancy in Warcraft.

    I would also argue that the Brewmaster filled more than 1/3 of the monk concept. The Monk class as a whole is Pandaren in theme. Once you establish that the Brewmaster is using martial arts (which was established by Blizzard way back in the TTRPGs) then creating a bunch of punches and kicks is rather simple. In addition, each Monk spec had their own unique set of brews, and had the ability to brew their main beverage during combat.

    This conception that a Tinker/technology/science class would be solely inspired by it's WC3 counterpart is based on a precedent you've created from nothing that Blizzard has this unnerving devotion to how things were depicted back in WC3 a game that came out nearly 2 decades ago and they've spent those decades retconning or ignoring it, you've created a non-existant dichotomy between "expansion" and "classic" classes when both use almost the exact same design philosophy of using WC3 units as a base and adding new or related concepts to create a more cohesive identity/theme.
    Meanwhile the Demon Hunter was also from WC3 and was released 4 years ago, and we're currently in an expansion where one of the main characters is Sylvanas Windrunner, a character from WC3. I even got to enjoy a Shadowlands cinematic where Uther got his "justice" on Arthas for what he did to him in....

    Yeah, WC3.

    The main selling point of Druids is shapeshifting and yet Restoration Druids have no baseline abilities that utilize the shapeshifting mechanics for their specs gameplay
    They did up until Mists of Pandaria. And they still have a talent that allows them to shapeshift, so what point are you trying to make exactly? That Blizzard alters abilities over time?

    theres more to a technology/science theme than just mechs, theres turrets, devices, gadgets, explosives, chemistry/alchemy, advanced weaponry (cannons, flamethrowers, crank guns, ect), a Technology/Science class that doesn't have 100% uptime on mech use doesn't automatically become a "wacky hunter"..
    You can still have devices, gadgets, explosives, chemical/alchemy, etc. with the mech. That's pretty much exactly what the WC3/HotS Tinker heroes and various NPCs in WoW show us. Also it sort of helps that Blizzard has pushed the mech-based Tinker since WC3 and hasn't deviated from it sense.

    In any case, work out a technology concept without a mech and that's exactly what it becomes; a wacky, whimsical Hunter.

    There is no "precident set by blizzard" that says classes can only draw inspiration from what came from WC3, compare the Death Knight, Demon Hunter, Paladin, Archmage/Blood mage/Sorceress, Priest, Keeper of the Grove, Farseer/Shadow Hunter/Witch Doctor/Shaman to what their WoW counterparts ultimately evolved into, there some of the original concept still there but they changed and evolved all of them to either fit better in an MMO setting or to create a more cohesive or diverse identity.
    So you're saying that the Mage for example didn't draw inspiration and abilities from Archmages, Blood Mages, and Sorcerers?

    Heck, those three units were pretty much the blueprint for the Mages 3 specs;

    Archmage: Icebolt, Water Elementals, Blizzard (Frost)
    Sorcerer: Arcane Bolt, Polymorph, Slow, Invisibility (Arcane)
    Blood Mage: Firebolt, Flamestrike, Phoenix (Fire)

    What about Shaman?
    Witch Doctors: Healing Ward, Sentry Ward, Stasis Trap
    Shadow Hunter: Serpent Ward, Healing Wave, Hex
    Farseer: Feral Spirit, Earthquake, Far Sight, Chain Lightning
    Shaman: Purge, Lightning Shield, Bloodlust
    Spirit Walker: Etheral Form, Spirit Link

    Wards become totems, and all of those abilities went into the Shaman class.

    We can do this with pretty much EVERY WoW class.


    2/3rds of the Monk class didn't even come from the warcraft setting/WC3 it was inspired by chinese/east asian martial arts & monasticism/mysticism, If blizzard followed this "precedent" then the Monk class as we know it wouldn't even exist because all that would be there is brews, which make up 1/3rd of the current monk class

    This is the Pandaren Brewmaster ultimate;



    Yeah, totally has nothing to do with Chinese/Asian martial arts and monasticism/mysticism.

  3. #3243
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I would literally die (ok, not really), if Blizzard decided to use Bwonsamdi as the 'base' for a new Necromancer class! It would be soo refreshing to see a death magic user that isn't associated in any way with the Scourge/Ebon Blade

    But, would it be a Hero Class?
    Well, my take is largely that I'm tired of '100% dark and edgy'. I think it's possible to have something dark yet still be stylish and interesting. Still be fun. Bwonsamdi was one of my favourite NPCs in BfA, and he managed to be fun, stylish, and interesting, while also being a very dark character.

    I'd love to see more voodoo in WoW. The Shaman class is supposed to fill that niche, but it really doesn't in a meaningful way. I could see Bwonsamdi be the big lore figure for a voodoo/death themed class. I'll call it the 'Witch Doctor' for lack of a better name right now, but it's not what I would personally use for it. Guve it a lot of the classic voodoo style abilities like hexes, curses, fetishes, and what not. Take liberally from what we saw throughout Zandalar. Give us a death class that isn't the traditional sword and Sorcery Necromancer, but is a bit of a stand in.

    As for a hero class, my opinion would be no. I don't think it would be. Hero classes seem to be more along the lines of something that somebody else makes (raising Death Knights or making Demon Hunters). To me, this is something you train for. It feels more base class to me.

  4. #3244
    La la la la~ LemonDemonGirl's Avatar
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    Would a Witch Doctor/Necromancer be Troll-only?
    I don't play WoW anymore smh.

  5. #3245
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Would a Witch Doctor/Necromancer be Troll-only?
    Oh dear lord no. I get what you're saying, but that's a recipe for disaster. The tricky part is finding Alliance races that make any degree of sense. Kul Tirans are probably the most likely I'd guess. Dark Irons maybe? Worgen?

    Horde side, both types of Trolls is obvious. Orcs? Forsaken? Goblins?

  6. #3246
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Replace your abilities with engineering items and do some quests at your character's level. Make a video so we can see how much progress you (don't) make.
    And try using rocket barrage as your goblins main attack. It will be equally as effective as an engineering explosive. Just because the damage isn't viable doesn't mean it doesn't serve the same purpose. Both do damage. Both slow falls make you fall slow. Eng stealth and rogue stealth both let you stealth out of combat. You may not be happy with how Blizzard has balanced them around anyone being able to use them but that doesn't mean they don't serve the same purpose.

    Hell in this very expansion they have added back certain class skills to all specs even though they are completely worthless in two out of the three specs so its not like a skill needs to be viable to be considered a skill.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-01-22 at 02:34 AM.

  7. #3247
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Oh dear lord no. I get what you're saying, but that's a recipe for disaster. The tricky part is finding Alliance races that make any degree of sense. Kul Tirans are probably the most likely I'd guess. Dark Irons maybe? Worgen?

    Horde side, both types of Trolls is obvious. Orcs? Forsaken? Goblins?
    There are Voodoo Sand Gnomes in Zul'Aman. You can even get a trinket to summon them, so that could be a sub-Gnome trait.

  8. #3248
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There are Voodoo Sand Gnomes in Zul'Aman. You can even get a trinket to summon them, so that could be a sub-Gnome trait.
    Well now, you learn something new every day. That's so cool! I like that. A fat little midget dude wearing a fetish mask and tossing hexes around sounds like a riot.

  9. #3249
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I would fucking kill for a Shadow Hunter class.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Shadow Hunters are more like shamans, actually but have vastly different capabilities in a lot of ways. A class that finally utilizes voodoo as a power source would be fantastic.
    We have some really cool shadow hunter npcs as well

  10. #3250
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    And try using rocket barrage as your goblins main attack. It will be equally as effective as an engineering explosive. Just because the damage isn't viable doesn't mean it doesn't serve the same purpose. Both do damage.
    If the damage isn't viable, then it doesn't replace a damage ability.

    Both slow falls make you fall slow. Eng stealth and rogue stealth both let you stealth out of combat. You may not be happy with how Blizzard has balanced them around anyone being able to use them but that doesn't mean they don't serve the same purpose.
    Yeah, the Engineering Stealth is a 15 second duration with a 10 minute CD. Compared to Rogue stealth which is permanent, and Hunter Camouflage which lasts for 1 minute on a 1 minute CD and increases your regeneration.

    Hell in this very expansion they have added back certain class skills to all specs even though they are completely worthless in two out of the three specs so its not like a skill needs to be viable to be considered a skill.
    Such as?

  11. #3251
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, the Engineering Stealth is a 15 second duration with a 10 minute CD. Compared to Rogue stealth which is permanent, and Hunter Camouflage which lasts for 1 minute on a 1 minute CD and increases your regeneration.
    It's still engineering abilities doing the same thing as class abilities. By that logic, I can justify a new ability for a necromancer or a bard class and argue that "they're not the same" because the bard/necromancer ability has a lower cooldown, or deals/prevents more damage, or has a secondary effect the other does not.

    Such as?
    You're not doing Slam at all as a Fury Warrior, for example.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  12. #3252
    A dragonsworn
    A tinker
    And a dark ranger walks into a bar

    The dragonsworn talks about the aspects that empower him and how he trained to be able to protect his world

    The dark ranger talks about how she was training under the banshee queen after being raised from death at the burning of teldrassil and how she uses the shadows to defeat the enemies of the horde including the banshee queen

    The tinker talks about his new spanner.

  13. #3253
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's still engineering abilities doing the same thing as class abilities. By that logic, I can justify a new ability for a necromancer or a bard class and argue that "they're not the same" because the bard/necromancer ability has a lower cooldown, or deals/prevents more damage, or has a secondary effect the other does not.
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.

  14. #3254
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the damage isn't viable, then it doesn't replace a damage ability.



    Yeah, the Engineering Stealth is a 15 second duration with a 10 minute CD. Compared to Rogue stealth which is permanent, and Hunter Camouflage which lasts for 1 minute on a 1 minute CD and increases your regeneration.



    Such as?
    Where did I say it is replacing a damage ability? It's balanced around anyone being able to use it and to not replace your damaging abilities. The only abilities you have that replace others are talent tree abilities and they only replace a comparable skill. Otherwise everyone would just have a single damage ability if it were like you are describing.

    Again just because they are balanced in a way you don't like doesn't make them comparable. Just like a hunter's stealth isn't just a clone of a rogues stealth. And hunters stealth it lasts for 1 minute and has a 1 minute cooldown once you leave stealth. You make it sound like its a perma clickable when its not.


    Just off hand I can think of two:
    Arcane shot is baseline for all hunters and is a dps loss on a beastmaster. You should always use cobra shot.
    Shield of the righteous is now baseline and is also bad for ret paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.
    Yes and its your headcannon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. It's also your headcannon that an ability is somehow different if it comes from a profession. Remember the herbalism heal? Guess what that was an ability. It still healed you just like any other heal skill.

    BLizzard balances engineering shit around the fact that anyone can use it and they don't want to make them so god damn op that everyone picks it. Just like they balance the damage of instant cast skills or range skills differently and so on.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-01-22 at 03:21 AM.

  15. #3255
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoSe7eN View Post
    mmo-champion.com/threads/2294389-New-Necromancer-Concept-2017

    Seriously, who would not want this? Can't argue this would be awesome.
    B-b-b-BUt tHerE ArE dAtH NuGhTz aLReADy
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    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  16. #3256
    Plate int-based melee dual-wielding wand specialist.
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  17. #3257
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.
    And they're engineering abilities. Damage is not evidence of being "different things" when we're talking about concepts behind their designs.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.
    Unlike you, I can keep my arguments straight and not conflate two separate discussions.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  18. #3258
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Where did I say it is replacing a damage ability?
    Right here;

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    False. Under no circumstance does items serve the same overall function and purpose as class abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Of course they can. An engineering rocket can do damage so can a goblins rocket Barrage. An engineers slowfall serves the same purpose of a priests slowfall. Wormhole generators serve the same purpose as a mages teleport etc....

    Yes and its your headcannon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. It's also your headcannon that an ability is somehow different if it comes from a profession. Remember the herbalism heal? Guess what that was an ability. It still healed you just like any other heal skill.
    Rock-It! Turret
    25 yd range
    Instant 10 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Summons a Rock-It! Turret at your feet for 15 sec that shoots rockets at a nearby enemy within 25 yards every 2 sec, dealing 3 Fire damage.

    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.

    And yes I remember the Herbalism heal. What does that have to do with this conversation where you're trying to say that an item is the same as an ability?

    BLizzard balances engineering shit around the fact that anyone can use it and they don't want to make them so god damn op that everyone picks it. Just like they balance the damage of instant cast skills or range skills differently and so on.
    And that changes the fact that items aren't the same as abilities how exactly?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And they're engineering abilities. Damage is not evidence of being "different things" when we're talking about concepts behind their designs.
    The Tinker abilities from HotS are not engineering abilities because they don't exist in engineering. Are you trying to say that engineering items are actually abilities via your personal lore (head canon)?

  19. #3259
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.
    But it doesn't have to be the same "range, cooldown, charges, etc.". It just needs to have the same concept, and for that, we do: there are turrets in the engineering profession.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #3260
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it doesn't have to be the same "range, cooldown, charges, etc.". It just needs to have the same concept, and for that, we do: there are turrets in the engineering profession.
    Qwerty was arguing that it was my head canon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. So s/he can find the engineering item that does the same thing as Rock-it turret.

    And if it doesn't have the same range, cooldown, charges, etc. it doesn't serve the same purpose, nor does it have the same concept.

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