1. #3381
    If we are arguing hearthstone is canon then dragonsworn are coming...along with ragnaros the light lord

  2. #3382
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, that would be correct.
    ... Are you really admitting to cherry-picking?

    Look at what you wrote above for example. Tinkers are a type of engineer, so when Blizzard "says" that engineers are inventors, which engineers are they talking about? Tinkers? profession engineers? The engineers who built the tram? This is what I'm talking about when I say that all you're using is semantics, because you're lumping the term "engineer" completely into the profession, when the game shows that the profession doesn't cover every type of technology, and profession engineers don't reach the same heights as the class-level engineers.
    The name of the player feature is literally called "profession", which means our player characters are professionals, not "hobbyists" as you claim as per your headcanon. This is literally semantics as you are trying to redefine what the word "profession" means. The official information that says that engineers are inventors comes straight out of the player profession webpage of the old website. Which means it's talking about the player profession, not NPCs.

    So when those abilities enter WoW from HotS are they canon at that point, or are they still not canon since they came from HotS?
    They are still not canon.

    Where is that statement?
    Still trying to find it. Will update when I find it.

    So if they're a professional why do they lose all of their professional knowledge when they drop it for another hobby?
    Profession. Not hobby, profession. Please stop with the semantics. Also, why are you so concerned with them "losing all professional knowledge when swapping professions" when you literally posited the idea that the player characters are super-powered mutants that don't need food, water or sleep to survive? Why are you NOW concerned with logic?

    Oh, right, I forgot: because it suits you. It's your tired old "rules for thee but not for me" bullshit.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #3383
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blingtrons aren’t created for combat, and Clockwerk Goblins aren’t created for utility. Also Clockwerk Goblins are built by pocket factories.



    The HotS abilities on the IE team were already translated to WoW though, so I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here. Also we have Abilities from HotS within the class lineup already, like Sundering in the Shaman class, and The Hunt in the Demon Hunter class.

    My point is that NPC abilities don’t have level requirements, yet these NPC abilities did. In addition they were the only team to have abilities from HotS. Why would that be the case?



    He traveled with us to Draenor and helped us take down the Iron Horde’s technology. He defended Durator against the legion invasion (inside his mech), and he helped us liberate Mechagon.




    It would be more helpful if we stopped with the semantics and identified things as what they are. Blingtrons aren’t clockwork Gnomes.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I’m more concerned about the abilities, not the characters housing them.



    I didn’t find that picture of the dark Pandaren ridiculous at all. I feel that it would have helped the expansion for us to encounter some evil Pandaren.



    You did say it. In fact you said it again in this post. Stay tuned....

    I use the claw pack and Robo goblin interchangeably because the claw pack transforms into the mech in WC3 and HotS. Personal preference aside, I think that is a potential aspect of gameplay.



    See, you said it again. Once again, the Tinker had a mech the entire time, since the claw pack is a mech.



    Irrelevant. Robo Goblin was permanent, and is permanent in both HotS and WC3. Thus it makes sense for it to be permanent in WoW. The permanent mech may be restricted to tank, but it’s going to be present in some capacity.



    Please provide an example of a profession trainer on the level of Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, Gazlowe, or Blackfuse.



    So is dropping your class. However when you drop your class the game ends. You must pick up a class to play the game. You never need to pick up a profession, and when you do, you can totally ignore it, or drop it. That indicates how important your class is, and how unimportant professions are.
    How the hell do you drop your class??

  4. #3384
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    If we are arguing hearthstone is canon then dragonsworn are coming...along with ragnaros the light lord
    No one is arguing that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    How the hell do you drop your class??
    You can't. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The name of the player feature is literally called "profession", which means our player characters are professionals, not "hobbyists" as you claim as per your headcanon. This is literally semantics as you are trying to redefine what the word "profession" means. The official information that says that engineers are inventors comes straight out of the player profession webpage of the old website. Which means it's talking about the player profession, not NPCs.
    Then once again, when your player drops their profession, why is all of their knowledge lost?

    Also when the site stated "engineers" were they talking about the Warrior who picks up engineering to make some toys to sell on the market, or engineers like Mekkatorque? Those two examples are not the same thing.

    They are still not canon.
    So this ability;

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=197214/sundering

    Is not a canon?


    Still trying to find it. Will update when I find it.
    Uh huh.

    Profession. Not hobby, profession. Please stop with the semantics. Also, why are you so concerned with them "losing all professional knowledge when swapping professions" when you literally posited the idea that the player characters are super-powered mutants that don't need food, water or sleep to survive? Why are you NOW concerned with logic?
    I'm just keeping along with gameplay mechanics, since as demonstrated by you, lore is an absolute mess to base anything on.

  5. #3385
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No one is arguing that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can't. That's the point.
    If all blizzard games are canon that means we are getting the return of galakrond and we are getting the lightlord

    Also if you can’t drop your class then it’s not a mechanic in the game


    Dragonsworn are coming

  6. #3386
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    If all blizzard games are canon that means we are getting the return of galakrond and we are getting the lightlord

    Also if you can’t drop your class then it’s not a mechanic in the game


    Dragonsworn are coming
    Yeah, you misread. All Warcraft games released by Blizzard are canon. If you look at the link, Hearthstone is considered non-canon, and so is HotS. However, Blizzard has stated that they can pull from those non canon sources to influence WoW. Again, we've already seen this happen with HotS abilities trickling into WoW, and Mogul Razdunk being yanked out of the TTRPG and made into a boss in Motherlode.

  7. #3387
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No one is arguing that.
    You are, when you use HotS and Hearthstone sources for your claims. A huge chunk of our arguments, here, is you refusing to admit that Heroes of the Storm is NOT canon to Warcraft.

    Then once again, when your player drops their profession, why is all of their knowledge lost?
    Game mechanics. This argument of yours is nonsensical, because, even if we granted you that the player profession are just "hobbyists", they shouldn't "lose their knowledge" either when switching "hobbies".

    Also when the site stated "engineers" were they talking about the Warrior who picks up engineering to make some toys to sell on the market, or engineers like Mekkatorque? Those two examples are not the same thing.
    Except they are the same thing. The site expressly stated that the engineers are inventors, and speak both of selling items, and improving themselves and others.

    So this ability;

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=197214/sundering

    Is not a canon?
    That is a World of Warcraft ability, and therefore canon. This one, on the other hand, is not canon.

    I'm just keeping along with gameplay mechanics, since as demonstrated by you, lore is an absolute mess to base anything on.
    No, you're trying to do a "reductio ad absurdum" and yet the only "absurd" here is you. Lore is not a mess, just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blingtrons aren’t created for combat, and Clockwerk Goblins aren’t created for utility.
    Blingtrons cannot fight? They're not created to fight? Put two of them close together and guess what happens? Hint: they don't start a tea party.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #3388
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You are, when you use HotS and Hearthstone sources for your claims. A huge chunk of our arguments, here, is you refusing to admit that Heroes of the Storm is NOT canon to Warcraft.
    And you're simply pushing a straw man. I never said that HotS and Hearthstone are lore. I said that elements of those games can be pulled into WoW and become canon. Blizzard themselves have stated this, so I don't know why you're still arguing against that point.

    Game mechanics. This argument of yours is nonsensical, because, even if we granted you that the player profession are just "hobbyists", they shouldn't "lose their knowledge" either when switching "hobbies".
    Depends on the hobby. I know plenty of folks who took karate as kids who can't remember any movements.

    Except they are the same thing. The site expressly stated that the engineers are inventors, and speak both of selling items, and improving themselves and others.
    Yeah, but that doesn't mean that your character making copper screws is an engineer, just a Warrior/Shaman/Hunter/etc. messing around.

    That is a World of Warcraft ability, and therefore canon. This one, on the other hand, is not canon.
    So in other words when HotS abilities enter WoW they are canon.

    That's all you had to say.

    No, you're trying to do a "reductio ad absurdum" and yet the only "absurd" here is you. Lore is not a mess, just because it doesn't fit your narrative.
    Lore is a mess. That's why you have to constantly use head canon to justify your arguments.

    Blingtrons cannot fight? They're not created to fight? Put two of them close together and guess what happens? Hint: they don't start a tea party.
    Yeah, that's because of this;

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_War

    That isn't what Clockwerk Goblins do. Clockwerk Goblins are designed to be kamikaze solider bots. That's it and that's all.

  9. #3389
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Well, there are Shamans in plate armor, like Thrall:
    He's the only shaman I remember wearing plate... which he wears as Warchief (and then virtually never again). It's kind of a symbol of his leadership, status, power, and of war. While shaman are often advisors and sometimes leaders I don't think generally speaking the plate transfers as well into the fantasy for shaman as elemental and resto make up more than half of what shaman are spec-wise, so the leathers I think lend themselves more to that kind of wise advisor or wise medicine man which the shaman basically is.

    While the warrior aspect is cool and probably the most bad-ass version of the shaman, it's not really the basic and traditional shaman we would expect to reflect an average shaman citizen or troop or member of the Horde. It's pretty Thrall-exclusive. If every Shaman ever started wearing plate (even Trolls, sitting in huts together, chanting over fires to whisper to elements) it seems less appropriate. It only seems appropriate as, basically, Enhancement while in-combat. Maybe Ascendance should put Enhancement in metal looking like that called from the Earth so that that aspect can be represented, but baseline maybe leather I think is still more appropriate. Enhancement gains power for Agility, which Leather fantasy-wise fits best. Though I guess maybe we could argue if Enhancement should be a Strength spec in plate or something. But the specs can't exactly have different armor types because of how un-fun that would be for players to collect various armor types just for other specs. It's funny - Paladins are often seen as the Battle Priests for the Alliance, but Shaman are still a common village archetype or something that isn't strictly only out in the field fighting. The Shaman have a communal presence too, a place in towns and cities whereas something like a Paladin is more on the front-lines all the time. And maybe in war it makes sense for Shaman to wear plate, but in terms of all the other situations it seems less appropriate. It wouldn't feel right to see like a normal Shaman NPC sitting down, staring into the fire, while smoldering under a huge weight of plate. Kinda kills the vibe, y'know? And sure they could just dress NPCs in leathers when not fighting, and only in plate when Enhancement and in combat... maybe.

    Thrall has changed his position a lot, too. Warrior, shaman, father, hermit... he'll probably change again before long. Shaman as a class meanwhile, like, should it be based entirely on Thrall or on all the other things Shaman are? Thrall learned from Drek'thar. Most Shaman take on knowledge from ancestors and leathers for that seems more appropriate whereas with plate that just kinda... kills the vibe again, I think. I can imagine Thrall communing with spirits in plate, but for other Shaman not as much.

    When I think of Shaman I do think of the leather robes and the wolf heads... that kind of WC3 unit, those old vanilla NPCs, those old leathers from the Barrens and such. Thrall is pretty iconic, and while he very much is a Shaman even in plate I'm not sure I would look at a normal Shaman in plate and immediately recognize it, whereas I think most normal Shaman in leathers would be easily recognized for what they are with the wolf heads and such. Maybe some kind of shaman plate could make for a cool orc heritage, but as far as class armor goes I think leather wolf head is kind of the iconic... y'know, class style for like, tier sets and all that. All races can use the wolf head leather style for Shaman I think appropriately, but only really that Thrall Enhancement type is kind of appropriate for that kind of plate, I think. It is a very complicated issue.

  10. #3390
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I’m more concerned about the abilities, not the characters housing them.



    I didn’t find that picture of the dark Pandaren ridiculous at all. I feel that it would have helped the expansion for us to encounter some evil Pandaren.



    You did say it. In fact you said it again in this post. Stay tuned....

    I use the claw pack and Robo goblin interchangeably because the claw pack transforms into the mech in WC3 and HotS. Personal preference aside, I think that is a potential aspect of gameplay.



    See, you said it again. Once again, the Tinker had a mech the entire time, since the claw pack is a mech.



    Irrelevant. Robo Goblin was permanent, and is permanent in both HotS and WC3. Thus it makes sense for it to be permanent in WoW. The permanent mech may be restricted to tank, but it’s going to be present in some capacity.



    Please provide an example of a profession trainer on the level of Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, Gazlowe, or Blackfuse.



    So is dropping your class. However when you drop your class the game ends. You must pick up a class to play the game. You never need to pick up a profession, and when you do, you can totally ignore it, or drop it. That indicates how important your class is, and how unimportant professions are.
    You, clearly, do care. Otherwise, you wouldn't have pointed out, multiple times, how they are part of the Island Expedition AI, which draws inspiration from HotS and, therefore are official abilities according to your opinion. There's nothing more cannonicaly about Lady Sena's abilities than those of Mekkatorque. Especially, considering he's the most famous Gnome Tinker. According to my knowledge, Blizzard bases their Classes on Heroes, not on insignificant, unknown mobs.

    Of course you didn't find it ridiculous. You're special. Most of the community would grin at the sight of a Pandaren Death Knight being the big bad of the expansion.

    Nope, i didn't. You need to read my comments more thoroughly. When talking about mech, we're talking about Robo-Goblin. When talking about claw pack, we're referring to caster form. Know the differences.

    *Facepalm*
    My head is red from the amount of stupidity right here. Mech Form = Robo-Goblin. Caster Form = Claw Pack. It's really simple to grasp.

    Man, you gotta provide a proof for the permanent Robo-Goblin in HotS. And, i'm not talking about visuals but, the bonuses it provides.

    That's where your problem comes from. There is no difference in lore between an Engineering trainer and an Engineer NPC. Some may be more flashed out than others, due to their popularity but, in the end of the day, they are both categorized as Engineers.

    You need to differentiate between game mechanics and lore. You picking a class doesn't make it important in lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Depends on the hobby. I know plenty of folks who took karate as kids who can't remember any movements.
    And i know many priests who are amateurs. Does that not make them priests?
    Listen, there are pros and there are amateurs. Not everyone can be a top specialist at what they do. This does not invalidate their profession. Not all Death Knights are as strong as Arthas. Not all Demon Hunters are as powerful as Illidan. That doesn't mean they are not Death Knights and Demon Hunters. You take certain, famous, cases of Engineers and point out that no one is as flashed out as they are. That's how games work. Some are more in the spotlight than others. It does not mean they don't do as the other, less known ones, do.

    By the way, you just pointed out that the Monk class is nothing but, a hobby. If one can learn martial arts and forget it later on then, it is no different to a profession.
    Last edited by Unbelievable; 2021-01-23 at 06:39 PM.

  11. #3391
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blingtrons aren’t created for combat, and Clockwerk Goblins aren’t created for utility. Also Clockwerk Goblins are built by pocket factories.
    Which would translate into WoW Engineering as being similar to Blingtrons in function. Just like Army of the Dead translated Animate Dead without the corpse mechanic or using bodies of dead enemies and just using generic ghouls instead.

    The HotS abilities on the IE team were already translated to WoW though
    Sure, that's for NPCs and existing classes.

    The Hunt wasn't even added until this expansion, and as a Covenant ability no less.

    My point is that NPC abilities don’t have level requirements, yet these NPC abilities did. In addition they were the only team to have abilities from HotS. Why would that be the case?
    My point is that NPCs aren't Player Characters.

    It would be more helpful if we stopped with the semantics and identified things as what they are. Blingtrons aren’t clockwork Gnomes.
    It would be more helpful if you stopped calling it semantics, considering you are calling Gazlowe a Tinker instead of identifying him as what he is; an Engineer.

    Blingtron is just as much a Clockwork Gnome as Gazlowe is a Tinker; these are both names applied to how they look compared to existing Tinkers and Clockwork Gnomes that we know of without considering a direct name association. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, amirite?

  12. #3392
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which would translate into WoW Engineering as being similar to Blingtrons in function. Just like Army of the Dead translated Animate Dead without the corpse mechanic or using bodies of dead enemies and just using generic ghouls instead.
    Army of the dead is an ability, not an item. There’s no way to translate pocket factory into an item.



    Sure, that's for NPCs and existing classes.

    The Hunt wasn't even added until this expansion, and as a Covenant ability no less.
    Sundering and Crash Lightning were added back in Legion.


    My point is that NPCs aren't Player Characters.
    My point is that the HotS abilities added to the IE teams don’t match NPC abilities.



    It would be more helpful if you stopped calling it semantics, considering you are calling Gazlowe a Tinker instead of identifying him as what he is; an Engineer.

    Blingtron is just as much a Clockwork Gnome as Gazlowe is a Tinker; these are both names applied to how they look compared to existing Tinkers and Clockwork Gnomes that we know of without considering a direct name association. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, amirite?

    Again, Tinkers are a type of engineer. Blingtrons are not clockwork Gnomes, and they’re definitely not Clockwerk Goblins.

  13. #3393
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Army of the dead is an ability, not an item. There’s no way to translate pocket factory into an item.
    Why not?

    Goblin Bomb Dispenser
    Item Level 46
    Binds when picked up
    Trinket
    Use: Creates a mobile bomb that charges the nearest enemy and explodes for 350 fire damage.
    Requires Engineering (230)

    Instead of one bomb, it will create several ones.

  14. #3394
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Why not?

    Goblin Bomb Dispenser
    Item Level 46
    Binds when picked up
    Trinket
    Use: Creates a mobile bomb that charges the nearest enemy and explodes for 350 fire damage.
    Requires Engineering (230)

    Instead of one bomb, it will create several ones.
    That item has a 30 minute cool down.

  15. #3395
    I'm convinced anyone who thinks tinker couldn't be a class just lacks imagination.
    Last edited by Newname1234567890; 2021-01-23 at 09:45 PM.

  16. #3396
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I'm convinced anyone who doesn't think tinker couldn't be a class just lacks imagination.
    It's already a profession though. Engineering even has subsections called Tinkers and makes Tinker's Kits.

  17. #3397
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    It's already a profession though. Engineering even has subsections called Tinkers and makes Tinker's Kits.
    Alcohol is also an item in wow yet brewmasters exist.

  18. #3398
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    It's already a profession though. Engineering even has subsections called Tinkers and makes Tinker's Kits.
    How can that be the case when none of the Tinker’s abilities exist in the Tinker class?

    Also similar wording in professions mean nothing. There were Brewmasters in cooking, brewmaster awards given during brewfest, and brewmaster vendors who sold drinks before MoP.

  19. #3399
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I never said that HotS and Hearthstone are lore. I said that elements of those games can be pulled into WoW and become canon. Blizzard themselves have stated this, so I don't know why you're still arguing against that point.
    Because you point at those games and say "this is how the ability behaves in HotS, therefore that is how it'll behave in WoW", which is a false statement of fact to make, because, again, those games are non-canon to WoW, and on top of that, those two are very different types of games.

    Depends on the hobby. I know plenty of folks who took karate as kids who can't remember any movements.
    Likely because it has been years since they dropped their hobby. I doubt your friends forgot everything about karate the very next day they stopped practicing it. The point is: "losing all knowledge" is nothing but a game mechanic.

    Yeah, but that doesn't mean that your character making copper screws is an engineer,
    Actually, it means precisely that. My warrior creating copper screws is a novice engineer, at the start of their career. My master engineer warrior can utilize the anima and materials of the Shadowlands to create oxxein bolts and upgrade their gear to be able to teleport around and even create devices that can bring their allies back to life.

    So in other words when HotS abilities enter WoW they are canon.
    No. I'm saying World of Warcraft abilities are canon to the Warcraft universe. Heroes of the Storm universe abilities are not.

    Lore is a mess. That's why you have to constantly use head canon to justify your arguments.
    It's less of a mess than gameplay. For example: my DH cannot wield shields, but there is a world quest in Bastion in which my DH wields a shield. But the point is, that is not why "headcanon" is used. Headcanon is used to fill in the gaps not made clear by the lore. For example: saying that Helix Blackfuse is a tinker is headcanon. Saying that Jaina is a mage, is not. Saying that Lorewalker Cho is a bard is headcanon. Saying that Russell Brower is a bard, is not headcanon.

    Yeah, that's because of this;
    It's still Blingtrons not only having the ability to fight, but actually fighting.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #3400
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because you point at those games and say "this is how the ability behaves in HotS, therefore that is how it'll behave in WoW", which is a false statement of fact to make, because, again, those games are non-canon to WoW, and on top of that, those two are very different types of games.
    And when translated to WoW those HotS abilities are almost exactly like their HotS equivalent.


    Likely because it has been years since they dropped their hobby. I doubt your friends forgot everything about karate the very next day they stopped practicing it. The point is: "losing all knowledge" is nothing but a game mechanic.
    A mechanic that likely reflects the lore.


    Actually, it means precisely that. My warrior creating copper screws is a novice engineer, at the start of their career. My master engineer warrior can utilize the anima and materials of the Shadowlands to create oxxein bolts and upgrade their gear to be able to teleport around and even create devices that can bring their allies back to life.
    Still nothing on the level of a Blackfuse or a Mekkatorque.

    No. I'm saying World of Warcraft abilities are canon to the Warcraft universe. Heroes of the Storm universe abilities are not.
    Until they’re translated to WoW right?


    It's less of a mess than gameplay. For example: my DH cannot wield shields, but there is a world quest in Bastion in which my DH wields a shield. But the point is, that is not why "headcanon" is used. Headcanon is used to fill in the gaps not made clear by the lore. For example: saying that Helix Blackfuse is a tinker is headcanon. Saying that Jaina is a mage, is not. Saying that Lorewalker Cho is a bard is headcanon. Saying that Russell Brower is a bard, is not headcanon.
    Your DH can’t hold a shield because it doesn’t work with your class and force an alteration of gameplay. It’s simple. Lore on the other hand is just a mess of writers writing over each other over and over again. It really has no place in a mechanical discussion about future classes.

    It's still Blingtrons not only having the ability to fight, but actually fighting.
    I find it hilarious that you’re willing to bend over backwards to prove that unrelated items are the equivalent of abilities, yet refuse to acknowledge that a DK is a Necromancer for “reasons”.

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