If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

Lichborne: "Draw upon unholy energy to increase Leech by 10%, and make you immune to Charm, Fear, and Sleep for 10 sec."

Deathborne "Transform into a powerful skeletal mage for 20 sec. While in the form of a skeletal mage, your Frostbolt, Fireball, and Arcane Blast hit up to 2 enemies near your target and your spell damage is increased by 10%"

Death Knights are already undead, why would they have an undead transformation ability, all it's description says is "drawing on unholy energy" Death Knights are already undead the LICH king was responsible for their dark REBIRTH they are born of the lich kings will meaning they are Lich-Born

Did you purposely omit the entire tooltip of the spell?

Lichborne
Instant 2 min cooldown
Requires Death Knight
Requires level 33
Draw upon unholy energy to become Undead for 10 sec, increasing Leech by 10%, and making you immune to Charm, Fear, and Sleep.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=49039/lichborne

The tooltip says they become undead.

Death Coil does not replicate abilities used on the target, they serve a completely different function, Primordial Wave facilitates AOE healing/damage using normally single target abilities such as healing wave, lightning bolt, lava surge.

Once again you're being as reductive as possible in order to make a concept you personally don't like seem as unviable as possible, which is hilarious given others can be just as reductive as possible and say your entire "Turret system" is a upgradable searing totem.

I'm not being reductive at all. The main aspect of Primordial Wave is this;

Blast your target with a Primordial Wave, dealing Shadow damage to an enemy, or heal an ally

That's all there really is to the spell. The rest of it is Shaman-specific stuff. The core of the spell is using one spell to either deal damage to enemies or healing allies. It's the same concept as Death Coil.

I didn't make the Necromancer class unviable, Blizzard did.

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Could a DK get these abilities? Sure. But so could a Mage, a Warlock or a Priest, and they have them too. Blizzard doesn't see any ability in the game as being exclusive, that is why Warlocks had Death Coil and Metamorphosis and why Mages have Frost Nova and Frost Armor and why Priests had Mana Burn and Ressurection. These are just abilities, anyone can be given anything and there's nothing 'class specific' about them.

If you're saying that Mages will get the ability to turn into Skeletal mages after Shadowlands is over, you're sadly mistaken. The only reason Mages have that ability is because we're in a Necromancy/Death-themed expansion. If the next expansion is Dragons, Mages aren't going to have the ability to turn into skeletal Mages.

If we're talking 'Necromancer abilities' as in abilities that suit a Necromantic Spellcaster class, then we're talking about different mechanics from a Death Knight who is solely designed for melee gameplay.

If you're not talking about mechanics and only talking about individual abilities, then what is the point? We already know that any class can be given any abilities. That's why Mages have a spell that turns them into a Skeletal Mage right now.

We're talking about Necromancer abilities that use Necromancy. Again, the issue is that the DK class can absorb any ability thought up for a Necromancer class, yes even abilities designed for a caster since the DK also utilizes ranged magical spells. This is by design, so you attempting to create a distinction between melee and caster mechanics when we're dealing with a class that utilizes both is a bit silly.

And no, EVERY class cannot be given any Necromancer ability. The only class that can is the DK class because it is so thematically similar to the Necromancer.

[VinceVega]

Why are people so hung up upon "it allready exists ingame"?

Call it by a different name, new animation and bam. New ability never seen before.

Shaman and mages are not really different. And for that matter neither are destruction warlocks or moonkins.
Shadow priests, warlocks, and again moonkins...

Healers are the once who actually have different playstyles and mechanics. Druid vs Disc vs monk. And even they have similiarities.

Necromancer would just fit 1000% better into wow.
Granted tinker would be somthing new. But i just don't think it really fits. This whole part of wow was always more of a sidestory and comic relief than anything serious.

If you REALLY open that dore by making it a player class you also actually have to move wow into the future via industialisation and whatnot. Not just slap a class into it that for some reason can do stuff that will not be used widley (like evry other class in wow) in te universe. And no it is not used that way right now.

Except for the faction leader fo gnomes an goblins noone is proficient enough to use it reliably. Make it widley used and i would be fine with it. But then open it up to ALL classes. Because there is no genetic barrier keeping them from it. It is just tech. Give everyone guns. Make magic obsolete. Let me shoot rejuvenations with a gun! Becuase that is the endgoal at a certian point of you give magic users tech.

Machine gun healing and killing spells.

Edit: i am a bit drunk an just like to pop into this thread then and now... because it is the new high elv thread... so much fun^^

[Imperator4321]

Did you purposely omit the entire tooltip of the spell?

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=49039/lichborne

The tooltip says they become undead.

Version of the spell i was looking at was a older version that didn't have the "become undead" part of the tooltip, my mistake.

I'm not being reductive at all. The main aspect of Primordial Wave is this;

That's all there really is to the spell. The rest of it is Shaman-specific stuff. The core of the spell is using one spell to either deal damage to enemies or healing allies. It's the same concept as Death Coil.

Absolute nobody cares about the tiny amount of shadow damage or healing the primordial wave does, the important part is that it applies a DoT (or HoT if restoration) and copies the next Lava Surge, Lightning Bolt or Healing Wave, it turns a single target spell into an AOE spell, Thats the actually important part of the ability.

When the expansion is over this ability is going away, it might return as a talent or baseline ability (like wake of ashes for retribution) but it also might not (like Light's Wrath for Discipline) but if it doesn't stay part of the shaman class why wouldn't this ability fit another spellcaster class especially one based on necromancy (obviously the DoT applied and HoT applied since a Necromancer class wouldn't be using riptides or flame shocks, but the core aspect of the ability is "replicates single target spell on targets with a Damage/Heal over time effect" and that would stay the same.)

Does this type of ability fit the DK class? a Death Knight doesn't want their Howling blast or Death's Caress replicated since those abilities aren't used for damage but to apply frost fever/blood plague (and Howling Blast is already AOE), and unlike Shamans Death Knights already apply their DoT's in AOE through outbreak, howling blast and blood boil unlike shamans who can only apply a flame shock to a single target every few seconds, so being able to replicate a death coil would be absurd due to how their DoT's are applied.

[Triceron]

If you're saying that Mages will get the ability to turn into Skeletal mages after Shadowlands is over, you're sadly mistaken.

Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.

We're talking about Necromancer abilities that use Necromancy. Again, the issue is that the DK class can absorb any ability thought up for a Necromancer class

Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.

[Teriz]

Version of the spell i was looking at was a older version that didn't have the "become undead" part of the tooltip, my mistake.

Absolute nobody cares about the tiny amount of shadow damage or healing the primordial wave does, the important part is that it applies a DoT (or HoT if restoration) and copies the next Lava Surge, Lightning Bolt or Healing Wave, it turns a single target spell into an AOE spell, Thats the actually important part of the ability.

The DoT it applies is Flame Shock and the HoT it applies is Riptide, and I'm pretty sure it only applies Riptide if you're Restoration. Again, you're talking about Shaman specific functions, which isn't the point of this exercise. The point is give an example of a Necromancy spell that wouldn't fit the DK class, and a spell that heals allies and hurts enemies with Shadow magic isn't something outside of what a DK can do.

Does this type of ability fit the DK class? a Death Knight doesn't want their Howling blast or Death's Caress replicated since those abilities aren't used for damage but to apply frost fever/blood plague (and Howling Blast is already AOE), and unlike Shamans Death Knights already apply their DoT's in AOE through outbreak, howling blast and blood boil unlike shamans who can only apply a flame shock to a single target every few seconds, so being able to replicate a death coil would be absurd due to how their DoT's are applied.

You're going too much in the weeds. If Blizzard wants to give Death Coil a HoT or a DoT that triggers something else, they'll give it to them. That's frankly the easy part, since it's just a secondary/utility aspect of the spell. The main part of the spell is once again Healing an Ally and Damaging an enemy with Shadow magic. Something DKs already do, and have done for years now.

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Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.

But DKs already do it, so what would be the point?

Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.

Isn't this a contradictory statement? If Bone Shield is an example of fleshcraft, why are we making another class that can do exactly what the DK is already doing? Why not create a completely new and different class and take those half-baked Necromancer ideas and use them to make the DK class more interesting?

[Triceron]

But DKs already do it, so what would be the point?

Mages do it, DK's don't have a form. Lichborne isn't a form, right?

Isn't this a contradictory statement? If Bone Shield is an example of fleshcraft, why are we making another class that can do exactly what the DK is already doing?

Because it doesn't do exactly what a DK is already doing. You're just comparing individual abilities.

You're making an argument that a DK that does exactly the same as a Mage with Skeletal Mage form. They aren't the same at all, and the argument is invalid.


Deathborne is a long cooldown ability that transforms you into a undead skeletal mage increasing your spell damage by 10% and causing your primary damaging ability to hit 2 other nearby targets.

Lichborne draws upon unholy and frost energies to become Undead for 10 sec. While undead all damage is reduced by 30% and you are nearly unstoppable becoming immune to Stun, Snare, Fear and Root effects.

Not even remotely the same abilities, not even remotely for the same Role or purpose.


Bone Shield Surrounds you with a barrier of whirling bones, increasing Armor by (70 * Strength / 100)

Fleshcraft Form a shield of flesh and bone over 4 sec that absorbs damage equal to 20% of your maximum health for 2 min.

They're different, but similar enough that the DK wouldn't have any real need for it.

[Imperator4321]

Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.

Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.

Honestly I doubt Primordial Wave is going to anyone but Shamans especially given how popular Necrolords are among Shamans because of the ability (mainly elemental), chances are the ability will return under a slightly different name but with the same functionality, fleshcraft is more up in the air.

I don't think a Necromancer class needs to be made out of hand me downs from the covenant system but the style and aesthetic of certain covenants (especially necrolords) can form a basis for the themes of a Necromancer class i.e flesh, bone, slimes/oozes, constructs, anima

a Spec could be based on the house of constructs and manipulation of flesh/bone, casting bone spears/spikes, summoning constructs, perhaps using mechanics similar to the corpse spells of the diablo 3 necromancer, monster deaths leave behind a corpse that are used as a resource for more powerful damage spells/create more powerful constructs with the ability to generate their own corpses through summoned construct deaths.

another based on the house of plagues, casting poison bolts/nova's, spreading DoTs, summoning slimes/Slimed Skeletons.

Third spec could be based on house of rituals with anima/necrotic spells, with deathwalker/death elemental summons, maybe cold spells but with more a "chill of the grave/death" design instead of frostbolts/cold winds or a healer spec based on blood magic/anima with blood elementals/oozes

[Teriz]

Mages do it, DK's don't have a form. Lichborne isn't a form, right?



Because it doesn't do exactly what a DK is already doing. You're just comparing individual abilities.

You're making an argument that a DK that does exactly the same as a Mage with Skeletal Mage form. They aren't the same at all, and the argument is invalid.


Deathborne is a long cooldown ability that transforms you into a undead skeletal mage increasing your spell damage by 10% and causing your primary damaging ability to hit 2 other nearby targets.

Lichborne draws upon unholy and frost energies to become Undead for 10 sec. While undead all damage is reduced by 30% and you are nearly unstoppable becoming immune to Stun, Snare, Fear and Root effects.

Not even remotely the same abilities, not even remotely for the same Role or purpose.

In both cases the character turns undead. That's the point of the spell. Again, what's the fundamental difference between a Skeletal Mage casting Frost Nova and a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast?

Bone Shield Surrounds you with a barrier of whirling bones, increasing Armor by (70 * Strength / 100)

Fleshcraft Form a shield of flesh and bone over 4 sec that absorbs damage equal to 20% of your maximum health for 2 min.

They're different, but similar enough that the DK wouldn't have any real need for it.

Yes, because they already have Bone Shield, which comes from you hacking people up with Marrowrend.

Like Lichborne, these abilities are thematically the same thing.

Anyway, we're just going in circles here, so you guys can have the last word. It's plainly obvious that the Necromancer brings nothing new to the table that the DK can't accomplish. Again, this is by design since Blizzard placed the Necromancer concept in the DK class, so Necromancer abilities have ended up there for the better part of a decade. While I view the Necromancer as a DOA class concept, you guys are free to talk about it. I no longer have any desire to talk about it further.

[Triceron]

Honestly I doubt Primordial Wave is going to anyone but Shamans especially given how popular Necrolords are among Shamans because of the ability (mainly elemental), chances are the ability will return under a slightly different name but with the same functionality, fleshcraft is more up in the air.

I don't think a Necromancer class needs to be made out of hand me downs from the covenant system but the style and aesthetic of certain covenants (especially necrolords) can form a basis for the themes of a Necromancer class i.e flesh, bone, slimes/oozes, constructs, anima

Oh completely.

I'm only using them as an example of Necromantic spells that are in the game that aren't attributed directly to the DK class. His argument was always centered around any and every Necromantic ability being thrown into the DK kit. We have here and now a whole slew of abilities that fit a spellcaster/healer archetype.

And yes, while Primordial Wave is Shaman related right now, a lot of that simply needs a name change and visual modification and it would fit into the Necromancer perfectly.

Fodder to the Flame -> Dark Ritual
Bonedust Brew -> Bonedust Potion
Death Chakram -> Spectral Scythe
Adaptive Swarm -> Arachnid Swarm
Primordial Wave -> Anima Wave

That would be simple enough to start.


As for specs, I'm totally aligned to those possibilities. I think Bone and Plague dedicated specs makes complete sense, and a Healer spec based on anima and unholy magic rather than Blood.

[shoc]

I'll say it once again, Dark Ranger would be a perfect Rogue spec.

[Traveler Voltin]

different game different rules.
the reaching is real.

[Imperator4321]

Oh completely.

I'm only using them as an example of Necromantic spells that are in the game that aren't attributed directly to the DK class. His argument was always centered around any and every Necromantic ability being thrown into the DK kit. We have here and now a whole slew of abilities that fit a spellcaster/healer archetype.

And yes, while Primordial Wave is Shaman related right now, a lot of that simply needs a name change and visual modification and it would fit into the Necromancer perfectly.

Fodder to the Flame -> Dark Ritual
Bonedust Brew -> Bonedust Potion
Death Chakram -> Spectral Scythe
Adaptive Swarm -> Arachnid Swarm
Primordial Wave -> Anima Wave

That would be simple enough to start.


As for specs, I'm totally aligned to those possibilities. I think Bone and Plague dedicated specs makes complete sense, and a Healer spec based on anima and unholy magic rather than Blood.

I like the idea that each one could manipulate corpses as a resource since it's something thats quite fitting for a Necromancer, Bone necromancers would convert them into projectiles/powerful constructs, poison necromancers could spawn slime skeletons or insects/carrion from them, death/anima necromancers could convert them into spirits or healing, with monster deaths and the necromancers own abilities spawning extra corpses for use, such as summon deaths/expirations or a transpose-flesh teleport that leaves behind a corpse (mainly so they aren't useless in single target fights)

I'll say it once again, Dark Ranger would be a perfect Rogue spec.

With some tuning some specs could honestly be opened up for the option of being melee or ranged.

Ranged Survival Hunter thanks to unprunning already is technically possibly (albiet not very optimal) and with some extra abilities rogue specs (assassin or subtlety) could be opened up to the option of being ranged (they already have the weapon skills) and rogues not using bows is a crime for any fantasy game.

main issue is balancing between the two since i wouldn't be a fan of say subtlety rogues or assassins becoming optimal as a ranged spec to the point it's the only thing that would be accepted in a dungeon/raid group.

Kind of suprised they didn't go with Amazon since the first 3 revealed were Diablo 2 classes, since one seems to be taking after the Diablo 1 rogue.

[Triceron]

I like the idea that each one could manipulate corpses as a resource since it's something thats quite fitting for a Necromancer, Bone necromancers would convert them into projectiles/powerful constructs, poison necromancers could spawn slime skeletons or insects/carrion from them, death/anima necromancers could convert them into healing, with monster deaths and the necromancers own abilities spawning extra corpses for use, such as summon deaths/expirations or a transpose-flesh teleport that leaves behind a corpse (mainly so they aren't useless in single target fights)

Yeah, that's pretty much a similar idea to what I had, cept instead of Corpes it would be Skeletons as resource.

I was thinking of them being similar to Xul, where they have abilities that auto summon skeletons and they have a limited duration. You have a limit of say 8 at a time, with some abilities able to go past that limit. And on the UI, it would be displayed like combo points, and you use the skeletons literally as a secondary resource. Want a stronger Bone spell? Tap straight into your skeleton minions for that. Want to passively heal? Have your skeletons transfer life essence. Or sacrifice them and transfer that essence into a big heal.

[Imperator4321]

Yeah, that's pretty much a similar idea to what I had, cept instead of Corpes it would be Skeletons as resource.

I was thinking of them being similar to Xul, where they have abilities that auto summon skeletons and they have a limited duration. You have a limit of say 8 at a time, with some abilities able to go past that limit. And on the UI, it would be displayed like combo points, and you use the skeletons literally as a secondary resource. Want a stronger Bone spell? Tap straight into your skeleton minions for that. Want to passively heal? Have your skeletons transfer life essence. Or sacrifice them and transfer that essence into a big heal.

Personally i like the idea that each spec has a unique set of summons, constructs of flesh (abominations), oozes/insects and spirits, with corpses being used as the resource to create them/fuel them, although the option to switch out constructs of flesh to skeletons and bone constructs (ala lord marrowgar) could be neat.

Bone/Flesh would have Corpse Lance, Corpse Explosion, Create Construct (which would be more a big cooldown that summons and abomination whos strength varies on the number of corpses used to create it)
Poison/Plague would have gestate insect, rapid decay (create a cloud of noxous fumes) maybe a slime skeleton conversion
Anima/Soul would have summon spirit mender and siphon remnant of life

Construct/skeleton summoning could be standard across all specs as the main form of resource generation when not engaging with fights where they'd be a steady stream of monster deaths (such as bosses), they'd deal minor damage (perhaps taunt as well outside of dungeon/raids to help with open world) and expire after a few seconds leaving behind a corpse, on a charge system with a moderate cooldown between charges (20-30 seconds) maybe with options to gain charges via procs, would also give a different flavor of summoning since your not using the summon for their own capabilities but as fuel for more powerful spells.

[Triceron]

I'll say it once again, Dark Ranger would be a perfect Rogue spec.

I do think there's merit in the idea.

I mean they already took Hunter and turned it to Ranged, they might as well give Rogue a decent ranged option too.

I do think Outlaw should have been that and they should've doubled down on the pistol options. But the shadow clones using bow attacks like Sylvanas in HOTS is also a really iconic look that would be really fun to see in WoW.

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Personally i like the idea that each spec has a unique set of summons, constructs of flesh (abominations), oozes/insects and spirits, with corpses being used as the resource to create them/fuel them, although the option to switch out constructs of flesh to skeletons and bone constructs (ala lord marrowgar) could be neat.

Oh definitely. Each spec should totally have its own constructs and summons.

Naxxramas pretty much set the standard of what minions are possible for a Necromancer, and the game has fleshed out (pun intended) plenty of undead summons that haven't been used by DK's. I think there's a lot to play with, like the slimes and the spirits and the bone-and-flesh constructs we've seen.

Skeletal summon should definitely be a primary feature of all specs though, I think it's too iconic to leave out. There's so much potential gameplay to piggyback off this like some of the Necromancer's mechanics in D3 or some of the Covenant abilities like Fodder for the Flames that really opens up how they could interact with the class.

I'm really interested in how this could play into healing. The idea of a Summoner/Healer hybrid is really exciting and fresh to me. I mean sure Priest has shadowfiend and Druid sometimes gets Treants, but we haven't gotten a dedicated Healer type that plays off of minions.

[Imperator4321]

I'm really interested in how this could play into healing. The idea of a Summoner/Healer hybrid is really exciting and fresh to me. I mean sure Priest has shadowfiend and Druid sometimes gets Treants, but we haven't gotten a dedicated Healer type that plays off of minions.

FFXIV has a healer summoner with the Scholar Job, they summon faeries who autoheal allies + a few command abilities, not quite sure how else it operates beyond that.

Although apparently there is a meme/joke that it's a DPS job since it has a decent damage toolkit + the pet does healing for you

As for how that could affect a Necromancer healer, perhaps the spirits are autohealers (akin to healing stream totems) but the necromancer has a few command abilities either AOE or Single target that either reduce the spirits remaining duration or expend them so it's a choice between consistent or a AOE/large heal. (might add it bit too much resource management there, since your managing skeletons + corpses + spirits)

Or they summon different types of spirits from corpses who preform different functions (single target, aoe, buff/debuff).

[Ielenia]

Because items are fundamentally different than abilities, and a profession can’t take the place or function of a class.

They aren't really. They have the same mechanics. The only difference is number tunings.

Beyond cosmetics, what’s the difference between a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast or Death Coil?

Death coil is single-target, howling blast is AoE.
Death coil is shadow damage, howling blast is frost damage.
Death coil is affected by Unholy spec passives, howling blast is affected by Frost spec passives.

An ability that damages an enemy but heals an ally? What’s the difference between that and Death Coil?

You do know that we have many abilities in the game that do the same, right? Your problem here is that you're not just looking at the ability itself in isolation, you're looking at a single characteristic of the ability in isolation while ignoring all the rest.

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That's a rather meaningless distinction in this case. I'm talking about individual abilities.

But individual abilities looked at in isolation are meaningless. What matters is how those abilities interact with each other and with the class' passives. Which is why the distinction between 'melee gameplay' and 'ranged gameplay' is important.

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https://www.wowhead.com/spell=49039/lichborne

The tooltip says they become undead.

You do know that death knights are already undead by default, right?

[Triceron]

FFXIV has a healer summoner with the Scholar Job, they summon faeries who autoheal allies + a few command abilities, not quite sure how else it operates beyond that.

Haven't really played that game, but definitely sounds interesting.

I did play GW2 and mained a Necromancer. There was a heal spec, but it played more around the use of Auras and AoE heals rather than any real Summoner style gameplay.

I think that's why it's really interesting to me, because the potential is all there and set up for a Summoner/Healer style but it's not really something done in another game before.

[Imperator4321]

Haven't really played that game, but definitely sounds interesting.

I did play GW2 and mained a Necromancer. There was a heal spec, but it played more around the use of Auras and AoE heals rather than any real Summoner style gameplay.

I think that's why it's really interesting to me, because the potential is all there and set up for a Summoner/Healer style but it's not really something done in another game before.

Elder Scrolls Online also has a Necromancer class with a summoner/corpse mechanic I believe every class in that game can Tank/Heal/DPS since weapons (including healing staves) and class abilities are seperate and every class has a tanking, damage and support/heal skill tree, think theres room for interesting mechanics since summoning as the primary mechanic is only really seen in Unholy and Demonology both dps specs.

Another nice thing BFA and Shadowlands gave us is a variety of lich models, a Necromancer class could certainly have a Lich transformation perhaps with a unique look based on spec.

Bone Necromancers would get the classic/standard bony lich


Anima/Soul Necromancer could get a more spectral version akin to Margrave sindane


Poison/Plague is a bit more open, could be plague/slime coated (something similar to margrave stradama?), have insects surrounding them or maybe something similar to the troll lich model with it's webs and jars


Theres also room for a variety of options regarding your normal summons, skeletons (including different races skeletons), maldraxxus skeletons, small constructs, slime skeletons, zombies. Ghouls should probably be avoided due to how Ghouls being unholy's main summon (especially since a large number ghouls gets created by army of the dead/apocalypse)

[Teriz]

different game different rules.
the reaching is real.

I'm looking forward to the end of this expansion. The death/undead/necromancy themes are dull and annoying.