1. #5161
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Comments like the one you made above is exactly why I do what I do. You guys just run off and define things how you want to define them based on your personal opinions. Evidence be damned!
    All that evidence served you real well before Legion came out. I remember you making almost all the same arguments for why Demon Hunters would not be added. Especially the one about their abilities being covered by specs already in the game. That argument was debunked in Legion when Blizzard simply went ahead with the class that was most popular and disregarded all the things that made it seem like it didn't fit in the game. If Blizzard adds another class, it will be based on them thinking that it is going to be popular and make people buy the game. It won't be because of any of these things you mistakenly believe are evidence.

  2. #5162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I suppose that's true. But, like I said, it is a possibility if Blizzard decide to expand on the necromancer concept, like they did with the death knight. Remember they slapped in frost magic and blood magic? They took ideas from WC3 Lich, Dreadlord and Nerubian concepts and put them into the WoW DK class.
    I think the DK class already set itself up to be different from Necromancers by the simple fact that all of their mechanics revolve around Runeblades and Runic Power.

    They are using Necromancy as a tool of destruction because that is what they created with and have instilled in them. That's about it. There's no real limit on what other powers they could have chosen to use, such as Zeliek using Light or Kor'thazz dropping meteors. The player DK's are modelled on using Unholy, Frost and Blood, and that's what it happens to be.

  3. #5163
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    All that evidence served you real well before Legion came out. I remember you making almost all the same arguments for why Demon Hunters would not be added. Especially the one about their abilities being covered by specs already in the game. That argument was debunked in Legion when Blizzard simply went ahead with the class that was most popular and disregarded all the things that made it seem like it didn't fit in the game. If Blizzard adds another class, it will be based on them thinking that it is going to be popular and make people buy the game. It won't be because of any of these things you mistakenly believe are evidence.
    You mean their abilities being covered like Metamorphosis being forced out of the Warlock class before Demon Hunters could enter the game as a class?

    Indeed Blizzard did bring Demon Hunters into the game, after nuking the demonology spec in 6.2, removing a well liked mechanic from an existing class, creating bitterness among warlock players, and creating a shallow 2-spec class for our troubles.

    Let’s hope they don’t do it again with a Necromancer class.

  4. #5164
    Regarding the Bard class and potentially the Support role, if things went that way....

    I invite you dear reader to play a BM hunter in a Torghast group.... It's very possible to go it alone, although you are buffing your pet, but in a group, man you really shine as you're pumping massive dps and/or defense into one player via Misdirect buffs and into the group at large via Hunters Mark buff.

    Maybe not a great example as Torghast and TC in particular is wildly unbalanced. But it's a hell of a fun playstyle in there, at least.

  5. #5165
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Because Gaming Website interviews are always correct and objective proof? (remember when Blizzard told us they weren't pulling a Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas, look how that turned out), all the Venthyr and San'layn share is that they both ape vampire aesthetics (even then the Venthry are more inspired by orlock/nosferatu style vampires), i've played their campaign and i've never seen a reference to blood magic, blood trolls or the San'Layn, the Venthyr are about Anima (which despite being red is soul energy not blood) and Sins (pride, envy, wrath), not blood manipulation and vampirism.

    At the most they are related by surface level aesthetics, unlike the Kyrian and the Val'kyr where we know theres a thread connecting them with Odyn peering into the shadowlands and creating the Val'kyr in their image, I've yet to see a connective thread between the Venthyr and the San'layn that isn't aesthetic (theres more connecting the Venthyr to the Dreadlords lore wise than there is to Blood magic, Blood Trolls and San'layn)
    So we’re supposed to take your interpretation of what Revenderth is about over someone who actually created the zone and it’s lore?

    Okay.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except it's not. We have never heard of "domination magic" until Shadowlands, and it's definitely not void magic, which is what shadow priests employ, considering others like the Archon, Primus and Winter Queen seem to be able to use, considering they are the ones that imprisoned the Jailer, using domination magic.

    So, no. It's not what Shadow Priests do.
    Oh? Then what is it? Like if a class was using “domination magic” what could they do ability-wise?

  6. #5166
    Not to derail too much, but Teriz - do you play FFXIV at all? I would definitely like to hear your speculation regarding what class they have in their back pocket for the next expansion.

  7. #5167
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So we’re supposed to take your interpretation of what Revenderth is about over someone who actually created the zone and it’s lore?

    Okay.....
    https://blizzard.gamespress.com/en-G...Warcraft-Shado

    "The cunning Venthyr of Revendreth, who feast on the souls of the prideful and vain in a gothic realm of opulence and torment."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/sh...venant/venthyr

    "Eaters of sin who harvest anima from wicked souls."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...itation-awaits

    "The Venthyr are aristocratic overseers of souls burdened with excessive pride and wickedness. They guide troubled souls upon the rigorous path to atonement, harvesting anima to keep their realm strong."

    Lot of references to Sins and Anima, not many to Blood magic (aside from "blood mirrors"), Blood Trolls and San'layn

    I doubt Blizzard dev interviews mainly because they've exaggerated, misdirected or outright lied about their stories before (see when they said Garrosh wasn't going to be a two dimensional villain, or when Sylvanas wasn't going to be Garrosh 2.0) them saying that theres this great connective thread between Revendreth and stuff we've seen before isn't out of character. Especially when the end result doesn't include any of those supposed connections (see the lack of Blood manipulation, San'layn, Blood Trolls in the actual Revendreth we get in game) especially when the other covenants actually do fulfill their supposed connections to what we've seen before (Helya in the Kyrian Campaign, Kel'thuzad in the Necrolord campaign, Ysera in the Night Fae campaign all connected to stuff we've seen before (Val'kyr, Scourge, Emerald Dream).
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-25 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #5168
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Oh? Then what is it? Like if a class was using “domination magic” what could they do ability-wise?
    Technically anything, considering all we know about this new type of magic (assuming it is a new type of magic) is nebulously vague at best.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #5169
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Not to derail too much, but Teriz - do you play FFXIV at all? I would definitely like to hear your speculation regarding what class they have in their back pocket for the next expansion.
    I haven’t looked into it much, but given how Square (like Blizzard) based their MMO classes off of previous games, I would look there to see the possibilities. I know they announced the Sage, and they have a new melee class planned. I’d have to see what they’re missing and cross reference it with previous classes in their older games that used the job system like FFtactics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Technically anything, considering all we know about this new type of magic (assuming it is a new type of magic) is nebulously vague at best.
    Doesn’t “domination” have a very specific meaning, thus forcing “domination magic” to have a very specific meaning as well?

  10. #5170
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I haven’t looked into it much, but given how Square (like Blizzard) based their MMO classes off of previous games, I would look there to see the possibilities. I know they announced the Sage, and they have a new melee class planned. I’d have to see what they’re missing and cross reference it with previous classes in their older games that used the job system like FFtactics.
    The lead developer also likes to plant clues in the t-shirts he wears to public events.

    For example, he wore a Spider-Man shirt to hint at the upcoming Samurai class. How was that a hint? Because the first modern Spider-Man movies were directed by Sam Raimi. Which, if pronounced with a Japanese accent, sounds very similar to Samurai. And quite a few people were able to guess it based on that shirt! I'm not clever enough to suss out little clues like that, but you do display a singular talent for detail. This is where your talents would absolutely shine.

  11. #5171
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Doesn’t “domination” have a very specific meaning, thus forcing “domination magic” to have a very specific meaning as well?
    Yes. But like I said: almost nothing other than the name has been revealed. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with all sort of different types of abilities for that type of magic.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #5172
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Domination Magic will probably be clarified/retconned as to being how the Lich King suppresses the free will of those he raises while still keeping their personality (like Sylvanas when she was a banshee).
    I have a feeling they'd tie it in directly to the helm of domination.

    Even when Sylvanas was raised, her will would have been subject to Ner'zhul's influence like the rest of the scourge, and only broke free of that when Ner'zhul was weakend by Illidan's shenanigans.

  13. #5173
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes. But like I said: almost nothing other than the name has been revealed. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with all sort of different types of abilities for that type of magic.
    Fire magic
    Cauterize

    Shadow/void
    Shadow mend

    He’s reaching because blizzard can make any magic do anything but he has a small window of ideas for what he finds possible unless it’s for his sonichu....I mean tinker.

  14. #5174
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes. But like I said: almost nothing other than the name has been revealed. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with all sort of different types of abilities for that type of magic.
    Yes, it’s about dominating minds. Something priests already do. Dominating minds isn’t robust enough to be a class concept. It works as a sub theme (like in the Priest class) but the idea that it would be a class theme is laughable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    The lead developer also likes to plant clues in the t-shirts he wears to public events.

    For example, he wore a Spider-Man shirt to hint at the upcoming Samurai class. How was that a hint? Because the first modern Spider-Man movies were directed by Sam Raimi. Which, if pronounced with a Japanese accent, sounds very similar to Samurai. And quite a few people were able to guess it based on that shirt! I'm not clever enough to suss out little clues like that, but you do display a singular talent for detail. This is where your talents would absolutely shine.
    I’m going to go with Reddit and say the next job will be Templar. There’s even a Templar class/job from FFTA, so it fits;

    https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ctics_Advance)

    The other new Job, the Sage comes from the same game;

    https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ctics_Advance)

  15. #5175
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, it’s about dominating minds.
    Where does it say that? I'll tell you where: nowhere. Because Blizzard has revealed nothing about that type of magic other than the name, and that it was used to bind the Jailer to the Maw, or something to that effect.

    Something priests already do.
    Freezing and slowing was something mages already did. But we got Frost death knights anyways, didn't we? Burning people with fire was something that mages already did, but that did not stop destruction warlocks. Healing with the Light was something paladins already did, but that did not stop holy priests.

    "X cannot exist because Y already does that" is a meaningless argument to make, not only because it's debunked by the classes we have, but also because it's needlessly restrictive.

    Dominating minds isn’t robust enough to be a class concept.
    Thankfully "domination magic" has not been stated to be only that, so far. As I said numerous times: we know nothing about that type of magic other than its name and the fact it was used against the Jailer.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #5176
    Blizzard can barely balance the current roster, what makes ye think they can add one more?

  17. #5177
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I have a feeling they'd tie it in directly to the helm of domination.

    Even when Sylvanas was raised, her will would have been subject to Ner'zhul's influence like the rest of the scourge, and only broke free of that when Ner'zhul was weakend by Illidan's shenanigans.
    Yeah i think it's just them trying to fit old lore into the new/rebooted lore (i.e pretty much all the lore since legion), same reason Dreadlords are now actually servants of Denathrius/Death instead of purely being Demons, Jailor was behind the creation of the Lich King and not Kil'jaeden. Sorta like how turned the Old Gods from random Cthuloid monsters into creations of the Void Lords, Arcane, Necromancy and Fel into seperate (and in some cases opposing forces) instead of the Arcane basically being a gateway drug into Fel & Necromancy.

    I get the feeling that "Domination magic" will be Maw-related death magic that suppress the free-will of those bound to it while the victim still retains awareness/personality (like Sylvanas when she was under the Lich Kings control or now seemingly Anduin now under the Jailor)

  18. #5178
    I'd love a necromancer class, or a plate wearing mage class, aka a battle mage which is either tank or ranged dps, I would utterly loathe a tinker class for so many reasons I would bore myself listing them.

    if a new class did come I would want two things, one for it to be a ranged class primarily, the added classes have been all melee unless I a wrong somewhere, and not quite connected but with such massive class and spec bloat, for many existing classes to be trimmed specwise, like all pure dps classes should in my unpopular opinion have only 2 varients at most or even better, just a more highly customiseable sing spec, so if you wanted to be say a beast master or a MM hunter you pick that talent at level x and then follow that path.

    I just feel the existing classes are too bloated with useless specs.

  19. #5179
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    I get the feeling that "Domination magic" will be Maw-related death magic that suppress the free-will of those bound to it while the victim still retains awareness/personality (like Sylvanas when she was under the Lich Kings control or now seemingly Anduin now under the Jailor)
    It seems like a very specific thing they want to push to tell Anduin's story. They are really honing in on the Jailer being the core big bad behind all these things instead if just 'the burnig legion'.

    I'm still unsure how this all fits in with Kil'jaeden, but I'm guessing the Dreadlords 'fooling' him by presenting a Lich King is what's going on? Seems dubious, but I guess most retcons are.

    We will see if this Domination magic will have a greater role in the future after this expansion. I hope its not just going to be a one-and-done plot device. They've done well so far completely not explaining Calia's whole undeath situation, even in the face if Shadowlands.

  20. #5180
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It seems like a very specific thing they want to push to tell Anduin's story. They are really honing in on the Jailer being the core big bad behind all these things instead if just 'the burnig legion'.

    I'm still unsure how this all fits in with Kil'jaeden, but I'm guessing the Dreadlords 'fooling' him by presenting a Lich King is what's going on? Seems dubious, but I guess most retcons are.
    It's not too egregious (as far as blizzard retcons go) since Dreadlords were established as master-manipulators (although so was Kil'jaeden) and being the demons who were assisting the Lich King (so i guess they were reporting to the Jailor/Denathrius as well as Kil'jaeden)

    From what i can guess the chain of events is:
    1. Denathrius creates the Dreadlords
    2. Dreadlords infilrate various cosmic forces (disorder and void seem to be the main ones)
    3. Jailor has the runecarver make the Helm of Domination & Frostmourne
    4. Dreadlords recieve the helm & blade and give it to Kil'jaeden who fashions Ner'zul into the lich king with it
    5. Ner'zul is now the lich king and is being influenced by the Jailor (perhaps hes the one who had Ner'zul rebel?)
    6. Ner'zul, Arthas and Bolvar were apparently failures though (maybe domination magic has limits guess it's to explain why he didn't just shatter the veil before)

    Theres also other stuff like Mueh'zala making a deal for Odyn's eye which led to Odyn creating the Val'kyr which led to Helya rebelling against Odyn and joining the Jailor which presumably created the mawsworn Kyrian and scourge Val'kyr, which led to Sylvanas' pact with the Jailor. (along with Mueh'zala being the one who told Vol'jin to make Sylvanas warchief)

    Basically a massive amount of retcons means The Jailor, Mueh'zala and Denathrius are master schemers who can predict the actions of and manipulate god and demi-god tier characters into following a very specific series of events such as odyn created the Val'kyr because he wanted servants who could steal Vrykul from death because he didn't trust the Dragon Aspects or the Dreadlords manipulating Kil'jaden/Sargeras

    Although that makes Varimathras kinda of funny in hindsight, hes a double agent working for Denathrius, pretending to work for the legion, who betrays the legion & denathrius to work for Sylvanas, who then goes back to working for the Legion, fails and then gets tortured by the Legion, while Sylvanas ends up working for the Jailor after his betrayal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We will see if this Domination magic will have a greater role in the future after this expansion. I hope its not just going to be a one-and-done plot device. They've done well so far completely not explaining Calia's whole undeath situation, even in the face if Shadowlands.
    Honestly I get the feeling it will go the way of Azerite or the Vindicaar, a story element forgotten because it's no longer relevant to the one patch/expansion it's used in despite it's existence having setting or story changing properties (like azerite being a power source or the Vindicaar being alliance owned now).

    Only thing i can see Mawsworn Anduin being used for is an excuse to keep Turalyon in power for when a Light vs Void Expansion comes around.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-25 at 11:39 PM.

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