1. #5521
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Actually, there are Dregmar Runebrand (Magnataur), Runemaster Molgeim (Iron Vrykul), Runemaster Skomjorn (Vrykul), Iron Rune Runemaster (Iron Dwarf) and Gorian Runemaster (Ogre).
    They use abilities like:
    Rune Shield — Protects the caster from all damage for 30 sec.
    Shield of Runes — Covers the caster in magic runes, absorbing up to 20000 damage. If 20000 damage is absorbed, this damage in converted into a powerful burst of energy, increasing the caster's damage by 50% for 15 sec.
    Rune of Power — Summons a Rune of Power under a random friendly target. This rune increases damage by 50% of all friendly and enemy targets within 5 yards.
    Rune of Death — Summons a Rune of Death at a random enemy target's location. This rune deals 2750 Shadow damage every half-second to anyone within 13 yards of that location. Only available when under the affect of [Supercharge].
    Rune of Summoning — Creates a Rune of Summoning near a random enemy. This rune will periodically summon Lightning Elementals, which will rush towards random enemies and explode. Only available with 2 stacks of Supercharge.
    Lightning Blast — Unleashes a large blast of lightning, dealing 9425 to 10575 Nature damage to all enemies within 30 yards of the caster but killing the caster in the process. Only available with 2 stacks of Supercharge.

    Rune of Destruction - Marks an enemy with destructive arcane energy, inflicting 18525 to 20475 Arcane damage to them and their allies within 6 yards for 15 sec.
    Rune of Disintegration - Conjures a field of arcane energy that persists for 30 sec. Enemies within the field suffer 12500 Arcane damage every 0.5 sec.
    Rune of Unmaking - Inflcits 17005 to 18795 Arcane damage to an enemy.
    Rune of Destruction - Marks an enemy with destructive arcane energy, inflicting 18525 to 20475 Arcane damage to them and their allies within 6 yards for 15 sec.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rune_magic
    That doesn’t sound like a monk. That sounds like a spellcaster.

  2. #5522
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is arbitrary, though. You came up with those based on observation alone. There is nothing that makes your "rules" a fact.
    That's called speculation, my friend.
    Nothing is 100% factual. That's why we're here to speculate. But, at least i have some obeservational evidence.

    Except the HotS hero plays nothing like the WC3 unit. "Updating" means improving what is there, not removing what it has and putting new, different stuff. That's like saying the spoon is an "updated and modern iteration" of the fork done by removing the fork's teeth and undulating the flat par.
    Are you claiming there is no connection, whatsoever, between the WC3 Demon Hunter unit and Illidan on HotS? Because that would be foolish of you...
    It doesn't need to play like its Warcraft 3 counterpart. It's a revisioned concept of an old unit.

    That's on you, though. Not me.
    Nah. If we want to make some progress with class predictions, we'd have to dive deeper than just general definitions.

    Except we're not trying to "predict classes", here. We're talking specifically about the monk class. If we want to predict classes, we need to see what Blizzard is doing within the game's lore right now, not scour previous games and see what player units are still unused.
    You forgot what this thread is about

    I did that, too.
    According to my analysis, a Void/Light expansion or a Dragon Isles one are due. So, make what you will of that...

    Pandas are one of China's most popular, well, anything. I don't think there's anything out of China that is more popular than the panda. And also we have oriental-style martial arts. It's not hard to put both together when we're talking about a game with anthropomorphic animals, I hope.
    I hope you don't, really, believe that they took the Panda, martial arts and came up with the Monk class for Mists of Pandaria. Because they did a long time before when Samwise Didier drew a Pandaren sketch, and then made the whole RPG information about them. It came from this, which in turn, produced the Pandaren Brewmaster for WC3.

    I would say that the entirety of Pandaria and its culture was derived from chinese culture, considering the monk class concept in popular media is of an oriental-style character.
    Of course it is. But, you've mixed up you timelines. They, already, drew upon that when they made the Pandaren in the RPG sources and the subsequent Warcraft 3. It didn't just pop one day when they decided they're gonna make MoP. Heck, Pandaren were considered as far back as TBC. China just didn't allow them to use pandas.

    No, they're not. Classes are not designed the same way as stuff like Dance Studio or an in-game profession. And the point that the runemaster was indeed considered twice, and almost made the cut, shows that we don't need Warcraft 3 heroes to base a class on.
    Almost made the cut?
    Lost twice shows how it's, most often, integrated into more prominent classes.

    It's only obvious if you're engaging in confirmation bias.
    Said the one who outright claimed Pandaren and Monk are, clearly, based on China's Pandas and martial arts.

    I never said the San'layn are original, so I don't know why you decided to point that out. I simply pointed out that the San'layn are more like "true vampires" than the venthyr, considering the San'layn are actually born out of a blood curse, are undead, and require to drain blood. The venthyr are none of that.
    The Venthyr are more likely to be added the same way Sylvar are more likely than Satyr and Kyrians are more likely than Val'kyr. You know why? because those guys are just modified races (Night elves, Vrykul).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That doesn’t sound like a monk. That sounds like a spellcaster.
    That's not the Monk part. That's the runic one.




    That is your Monkish Runemaster:




  3. #5523
    Most probable (as they all were strongly hinted during BFA):
    - Tinker
    - Dark Ranger
    - Warden

    Less likely (as they all are Warcraft 3 heroe units, like the 3 previous classes added to the game):
    - Blademaster
    - Shadowhunter
    - Priestess of the Moon/Night Warrior

    Unlikely (from the non-canon TTRPG and non-hero units from WC3):
    - Runemaster (something like a monk using runes like DKs)
    - Necromancer
    - Dragonsworn
    - Alchemist/Apotecary
    - Spellbreaker

  4. #5524
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's not the Monk part. That's the runic one.
    []
    I know. The point is that there is no defined Runemaster hero or class concept in Warcraft. Arguably there never was. The Monk-like version is now decanonized, and the WoW version is an undefined mush of Mage and DK abilities. Even before the decanonization occurred, the concept was still undefined due to a lack of a hero character.

  5. #5525
    Pandaren Monk cocomen2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Most probable (as they all were strongly hinted during BFA):
    - Tinker
    - Dark Ranger
    - Warden

    Less likely (as they all are Warcraft 3 heroe units, like the 3 previous classes added to the game):
    - Blademaster
    - Shadowhunter
    - Priestess of the Moon/Night Warrior

    Unlikely (from the non-canon TTRPG and non-hero units from WC3):
    - Runemaster (something like a monk using runes like DKs)
    - Necromancer
    - Dragonsworn
    - Alchemist/Apotecary
    - Spellbreaker
    With Runecarver presence and Zovaal face being full of runes, runemaster in "unlikely" category? don't make me sad.
    As for ShadowHunter , sadly but after Vol'jin died to random mob that class become somewhat a meme. (will kids really want to play it?)
    Please, there a perfect example of hypocritical thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If Tinkers had anything to do with Hunters, but they don’t. Unlike Bards which are linked to Rogues.

  6. #5526
    WoW is missing the Wardrummer class from WC3. It's time to remedy that oversight!


    @1:05

  7. #5527
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    WoW is missing the Wardrummer class from WC3. It's time to remedy that oversight!


    @1:05
    I'll never understand the desire for a Bard class in WoW. There's no point to it from a gameplay or lore perspective. It's quite telling that in the history of Warcraft, there has never been a Bard class or Bard hero. There wasn't even a Bard unit in any WC game.

    And before you trot out the Kodo Rider, I mean a unit actually called Bard.

  8. #5528
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    If you're not using lore, then yes.
    But, that's just shitty.
    There's no lore reason that would exclude another race for becoming a new generation of Dark Rangers

  9. #5529
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    With Runecarver presence and Zovaal face being full of runes, runemaster in "unlikely" category? don't make me sad.
    As for ShadowHunter , sadly but after Vol'jin died to random mob that class become somewhat a meme. (will kids really want to play it?)
    Yeah, sadly. There's barely presence in game of something like the runemaster (just 3 or 4 NPCs), and not even the barebones of something like a class.
    We're seeing now some lore that could pave the way to it with the rune magic and the domination magic, but nothing compared with the others.

  10. #5530
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And before you trot out the Kodo Rider, I mean a unit actually called Bard.
    To be completely fair... can you find a pre-WoW hero unit called a Rogue or Warrior?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Yeah, sadly. There's barely presence in game of something like the runemaster (just 3 or 4 NPCs), and not even the barebones of something like a class.
    We're seeing now some lore that could pave the way to it with the rune magic and the domination magic, but nothing compared with the others.
    Because we had so many Monks running around pre-MoP...

  11. #5531
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Because we had so many Monks running around pre-MoP...
    Well, that's what "Unlikely" means.
    I doubt back in Cata anyone tough about adding monk was probable.

    It just depends on Blizzard thinking that the class matches the theme of the expansion and having the technology/design for the class.

  12. #5532
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    To be completely fair... can you find a pre-WoW hero unit called a Rogue or Warrior?
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue_(Warcraft_III)

    Also multiple units in WC3 were considered "warriors";

    The Mountain Kings, or 'Thanes' as they are known in Khaz Modan, are the mightiest Dwarven warriors under the mountain.
    (Tauren Chieftain) These elder Tauren warriors lead their Tribes in daily life as well as in battle.
    Though the hearty Knights of Azeroth were destroyed during the First War, the shining Knights of Lordaeron still continue to serve amongst the warriors of the Alliance.
    (Footmen)Though these fierce warriors lack the shining plate mail and specialized training of their noble predecessors, they still fight with bravery and honor on the field of battle.
    etc.

    It should also be noted that Warrior and Rogue are very generic RPG classes. They don't require the level of seeding that something like a Bard would require.

  13. #5533
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's called speculation, my friend.
    Nothing is 100% factual. That's why we're here to speculate. But, at least i have some obeservational evidence.
    Then why do you get overly defensive when I point out your arguments are arbitrary and pure speculation?
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Claiming one's argument is arbitrary because you're frustrated in your inability to prove me wrong, doesn't make you any righter.

    Are you claiming there is no connection, whatsoever, between the WC3 Demon Hunter unit and Illidan on HotS?
    That was never my argument, and it shows, so not sure why you felt like asking that. I simply said that the HotS Illidan is a different concept than the WC3 demon hunter, and I've explained why: different abilities and playstyles.

    Nah. If we want to make some progress with class predictions, we'd have to dive deeper than just general definitions.
    Nah. Again, that's purely on you.

    You forgot what this thread is about
    I'm talking about our particular conversation about the merits of the monk class' origin and design, not the thread as a whole.

    I hope you don't, really, believe that they took the Panda, martial arts and came up with the Monk class for Mists of Pandaria. Because they did a long time before when Samwise Didier drew a Pandaren sketch, and then made the whole RPG information about them. It came from this, which in turn, produced the Pandaren Brewmaster for WC3.
    But they did, though. The Brewmaster RPG prestige class doesn't have much "monk" in them, really.

    Of course it is. But, you've mixed up you timelines. They, already, drew upon that when they made the Pandaren in the RPG sources and the subsequent Warcraft 3. It didn't just pop one day when they decided they're gonna make MoP. Heck, Pandaren were considered as far back as TBC. China just didn't allow them to use pandas.
    You accuse me of "mixing up timelines" and yet you claim that a TTRPG expansion book that came out in 2008 somehow came first than a game expansion that came out in 2003. Food for thought.

    Almost made the cut?
    Lost twice shows how it's, most often, integrated into more prominent classes.
    It doesn't matter. The fact it was not only considered, but was one of the top three shows that we don't need WC3 units for class concepts. Otherwise the runemaster concept wouldn't even be considered at all, in the first place.

    Said the one who outright claimed Pandaren and Monk are, clearly, based on China's Pandas and martial arts.
    I said that because they are. Any claim to the contrary is being delusional.

    The Venthyr are more likely to be added the same way Sylvar are more likely than Satyr and Kyrians are more likely than Val'kyr. You know why? because those guys are just modified races (Night elves, Vrykul).
    You would have a point if Allied Races wasn't a thing. We have LF draenei who are just modified draenei. We have nightborne who are modified night elves. And also: unless Blizzard does something to fundamentally change Shadowlands, the Venthyr cannot exist in Azeroth, because of one little problem: they burn and go mad under the light.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That doesn’t sound like a monk. That sounds like a spellcaster.
    Still waiting on your reply, by the way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It should also be noted that Warrior and Rogue are very generic RPG classes. They don't require the level of seeding that something like a Bard would require.
    Bards are also rather generic rpg class, really.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #5534
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    Bards are also rather generic rpg class, really.
    I'm talking about the five base (generic) RPG classes;

    Fighter/Warrior, Thief/Rogue, Archer/Hunter, Wizard/Mage, Cleric/Priest

    Classes like the Bard aren't really a part of that group, and in the case of Warcraft would require a great deal of seeding since they simply don't exist beyond a few scattered, disparate NPCs. Compare that to the remaining 4 original WoW classes:

    Shaman, Warlock, Paladin, Druid. Those classes received a great deal of seeding, and were concepts pretty steeped in Warcraft lore, with major characters being members of those classes. Nothing like that exists for the Bard.

    A prominent hero character would be a good first step.

  15. #5535
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Not all Hunters are rangers in lore.
    the distinction is like water and h20, and the point is not that they aren't is that they can be, ranger is not something so alien or exceptional, is just guys with bows.

    Everything fits if you push it hard enough.
    Point is, they would have been mentioned if they were rangers.
    they were literally, mentioned in the wiki that you linked, are you blind or just pretending?

    and you are just "pushing hard" until it gits your agenda
    Wrong again.
    Dark Rangers are not forsaken only, but undead High elves, Night elves and Humans, too.
    All those are forsaken, lol, forsaken is the group that encompass all the undeads, talking about a joke, trying to correct someone by being wrong.
    This can be attributed to their ranger backgrounds in life.
    nope, thats a lie, in part, you see

    Take your link to the ranger section in the wiki, there is not a single mention of night elves or void elves, so they are not rangers, threfore, they do not fit your vision

    but orcs and draeneis by example, are rangers, listed there

    Whatever you say...
    *Literally backing up my argument with lore sources, but who cares, eh?*
    youd din't even read the source, you would know that literally refutew you.

  16. #5536
    Blademaster Mike tang 1991's Avatar
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    A REAL Cloth tank like shadow priest in vanilla (they could tank up to nefarian)

  17. #5537
    Quote Originally Posted by Starbrand View Post
    [B][SIZE=2]But what if they introduced a new one in a future expansion? What would it be?
    Considering the times we live in, I'd say an offended and outraged vegan genderless lgqbt+ (sj)warrior.
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

  18. #5538
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    Most probable (as they all were strongly hinted during BFA):
    - Tinker
    - Dark Ranger
    - Warden

    Less likely (as they all are Warcraft 3 heroe units, like the 3 previous classes added to the game):
    - Blademaster
    - Shadowhunter
    - Priestess of the Moon/Night Warrior

    Unlikely (from the non-canon TTRPG and non-hero units from WC3):
    - Runemaster (something like a monk using runes like DKs)
    - Necromancer
    - Dragonsworn
    - Alchemist/Apotecary
    - Spellbreaker
    Actually, Shadow Hunter is likely as Vol'jin is set to be reborn. Furthermore, a Light/Void theme would fit it as Shadow Hunters are said to "walk the line between light and darkness".

    Blademasters might somehow slip into a Dragon themed expansion, as Blizzard made a Dragon samurai concept long ago, called Dragonman.

    Priestess of the Moon is very likely as Tyrande is currently relevant to the story, the Night Warrior background is expanded and Elune as an entity becomes more and more prominent.

    Alchemist is a Hero unit by the way, and you can probably expect it in a Gnome vs Goblins themed expansion, alongside a Tinker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I know. The point is that there is no defined Runemaster hero or class concept in Warcraft. Arguably there never was. The Monk-like version is now decanonized, and the WoW version is an undefined mush of Mage and DK abilities. Even before the decanonization occurred, the concept was still undefined due to a lack of a hero character.
    You can't, really, call it a Death Knight, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    As for ShadowHunter , sadly but after Vol'jin died to random mob that class become somewhat a meme. (will kids really want to play it?)
    Vol'jin is set to be reborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    There's no lore reason that would exclude another race for becoming a new generation of Dark Rangers
    There would.
    Lack of a ranger background in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then why do you get overly defensive when I point out your arguments are arbitrary and pure speculation?
    I'm not.
    You're just accusing without backing your arguments or suggesting an alternative.

    That was never my argument, and it shows, so not sure why you felt like asking that. I simply said that the HotS Illidan is a different concept than the WC3 demon hunter, and I've explained why: different abilities and playstyles.
    Not at all. You're nitpicking. Calling it a different concept would imply of it not being a Demon Hunter.

    Nah. Again, that's purely on you.
    Go ahead. Find a general method that works.

    I'm talking about our particular conversation about the merits of the monk class' origin and design, not the thread as a whole.
    Which is from the Pandaren Brewmaster Hero unit and other non-canon Pandaren sources.

    But they did, though. The Brewmaster RPG prestige class doesn't have much "monk" in them, really.
    The Pandaren RPG does, though.

    You accuse me of "mixing up timelines" and yet you claim that a TTRPG expansion book that came out in 2008 somehow came first than a game expansion that came out in 2003. Food for thought.
    My bad.
    I meant that they, already, had a notion of a Pandaren and Monk prior to Mists of Pandaria. They didn't need to draw from outside sources of Pandas using martial arts.

    It doesn't matter. The fact it was not only considered, but was one of the top three shows that we don't need WC3 units for class concepts. Otherwise the runemaster concept wouldn't even be considered at all, in the first place.
    We'll have to ask ourselves to what stage did it get in the development process.
    And, by the way, my claim is that they 'add' classes from Warcraft 3, not 'consider' them.

    I said that because they are. Any claim to the contrary is being delusional.
    Of course they are. Indirectly.
    Because Blizzard, already had pandas and martial arts in their lore that was based upon that. No need to draw from it once again to create the Monk class. Supplement - yes. Base - no.

    You would have a point if Allied Races wasn't a thing. We have LF draenei who are just modified draenei. We have nightborne who are modified night elves. And also: unless Blizzard does something to fundamentally change Shadowlands, the Venthyr cannot exist in Azeroth, because of one little problem: they burn and go mad under the light.
    You're right about that.
    Though, it seems Prince Renathal has made a connection with Z'rali.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the distinction is like water and h20, and the point is not that they aren't is that they can be, ranger is not something so alien or exceptional, is just guys with bows.
    You shallow the lore.
    You need to distinguish between rangers, Beastmasters, Headhunters and so on...

    they were literally, mentioned in the wiki that you linked, are you blind or just pretending?

    and you are just "pushing hard" until it gits your agenda
    Point them out, then, if you claim i missed them.

    All those are forsaken, lol, forsaken is the group that encompass all the undeads, talking about a joke, trying to correct someone by being wrong.
    Well, technically, yes. You're right. I just pictured an undead when i read it.

    nope, thats a lie, in part, you see

    Take your link to the ranger section in the wiki, there is not a single mention of night elves or void elves, so they are not rangers, threfore, they do not fit your vision

    but orcs and draeneis by example, are rangers, listed there
    It's called "Elven Ranger". It has a whole page dedicated to it. You must have missed it:
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Elven_ranger

    I'm aware about the Rangari Draenei.
    It's weird that they call Thunderlord Hunters rangers. They are probably like Zandalari spearangers. Which, i'd define as Headhunters.
    What i meant are more defined ranger groups, rather than unknown individual NPCs. Though, i can't ignore them, either.

    youd din't even read the source, you would know that literally refutew you.
    I read it, alright.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-04-13 at 04:18 PM.

  19. #5539
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    There would.
    Lack of a ranger background in life.
    Well if its only for the title "ranger", we also have the Draneai, the Pandaren and it can be debated, that the Gnomes also have rangers.

    Note: I guess the Zandalari, though they normally use spears

  20. #5540
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You can't, really, call it a Death Knight, though.
    Why not? It uses runeblades and runes, and generates runic power. How are DKs NOT runemasters?

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