1. #5881
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the form is a character inside a vehicle, why can’t we consider the character to be in the vehicle? To say a character isn’t in a vehicle because it doesn’t fit your definition is kind of silly.
    Because Vehicular Combat has a meaning to it.

    If you want to say a Mech Form, then say Mech Form. Not that hard.

    Same as if you said Ogres are playable because you have a trinket that turns you into an Ogre. Would you really consider that character to be an Ogre? It's just a form.

    Or like the Brewmaster’s staff which the Brewmaster had in WC3, yet didn’t appear until the Monk class entered WoW?
    Staves have been in the game well before Monks were.

    Where is the claw pack?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sometimes i don't even know the discussions, are people literally denying the possibility of tinker? they are as much possible or ever more as any other class idea by now, i don't know why so much discussion
    Blizzard is the only one that decides what classes get added to the game. If anyone is denying their possibility, it would be Blizzard, not any of the fans.

    Fans can't actually deny the possibility of anything. You can argue against a Blademaster, but you can't deny its possibility either. That ultimately comes down to Blizzard.

    I mean, look what happened at all the people who denied the possibility of Demon Hunters. They had zero power to actually deny them from existing.

  2. #5882
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because Vehicular Combat has a meaning to it.
    Yes, combat inside a vehicle.

    Which is exactly what a Goblin fighting inside a mech would be doing.

    If you want to say a Mech Form, then say Mech Form. Not that hard.
    Again, if the mech form is a Goblin or Gnome or whatever in the cockpit of a mech, that character is inside a vehicle, period.

    Same as if you said Ogres are playable because you have a trinket that turns you into an Ogre. Would you really consider that character to be an Ogre? It's just a form.
    Yeah, that's not even close to the same thing.

    Staves have been in the game well before Monks were.
    Not this one;



    It only was brought into the game when the Monk class was introduced into WoW, because it's the staff of the Brewmaster.


    Where is the claw pack?
    More than likely the same place where that staff was before MoP; awaiting the debut of the class it's associated with.

  3. #5883
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Two health bars and no damage from falls hardly encapsulates the experience of vehicular combat.
    "Two health bars" surely encapsulates what is vehicular combat, considering that's the main gimmick of it: you get into a vehicle, gaining a separate health bar, that is independent from yours. When you take damage, the vehicle takes the damage instead while you remain immune to damage while inside it. And when the vehicle's HP reaches zero, vehicle is destroyed, and you pop out, with the exact same amount of health you had when you entered the vehicle.

    and have Eject instead of two health bars and you’ll get largely the same effect.
    "Eject" is meaningless. It'd be just like a druid getting out of shapeshifted form if we're talking about actual forms instead of vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the form is a character inside a vehicle, why can’t we consider the character to be in the vehicle?
    Because we already have a mechanic in the game that is a vehicle.

    To say a character isn’t in a vehicle because it doesn’t fit your definition is kind of silly.
    Because, from a gameplay standpoint, it's not actually a vehicle and just a form. Like druids, and like being on a mount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, combat inside a vehicle.

    Which is exactly what a Goblin fighting inside a mech would be doing.
    He wouldn't. He would be in a form (gameplay mechanic) that, graphic-wise, looks like he is inside a mech. No different than how one looks while riding the Sky Golem: it's not an actual vehicle, it's just a form.

    Again, if the mech form is a Goblin or Gnome or whatever in the cockpit of a mech, that character is inside a vehicle, period.
    Why do you insist in using the term "vehicle" when it was pointed out several times to you that it has a different meaning in the game, as the name of a separate feature?

    More than likely the same place where that staff was before MoP; awaiting the debut of the class it's associated with.
    Except we didn't have Pandaria monks anywhere in the world before then. But we had technology and engineers and Gazlowe since WoW day 1.
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  4. #5884
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Two health bars" surely encapsulates what is vehicular combat, considering that's the main gimmick of it: you get into a vehicle, gaining a separate health bar, that is independent from yours. When you take damage, the vehicle takes the damage instead while you remain immune to damage while inside it. And when the vehicle's HP reaches zero, vehicle is destroyed, and you pop out, with the exact same amount of health you had when you entered the vehicle.
    Yeah, that isn't the "gimmick" at all. The main "gimmick" of a vehicle is being a weapons platform that allows the character to deploy weapons like missiles, laser cannons, and robots. The other aspect of it is to increase the character's speed and armor. So no, two health bars isn't even close to important, since an armor boost is essentially the same thing.

    "Eject" is meaningless. It'd be just like a druid getting out of shapeshifted form if we're talking about actual forms instead of vehicles.
    That isn't how Eject would work. It would work as a passive CD that initiates when the mech is at zero health. The Tinker would get the option to eject or simply die with the mech. If the Tinker decides to eject, they'll leave the mech and enter pilot form, and have 20% health. If they survive long enough, they can summon a new mech to replace the old one. I would suggest a talent that also gives the Tinker the option to self destruct the mech during eject and allow it to damage enemy targets. Eject would have a 20-30 minute CD.

    Again, nothing like a Druid simply shifting out of Bear or Cat form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    He wouldn't. He would be in a form (gameplay mechanic) that, graphic-wise, looks like he is inside a mech. No different than how one looks while riding the Sky Golem: it's not an actual vehicle, it's just a form.
    That's interesting considering that the Link you posted lists the sky golem and other shredders as vehicles. It should also be noted that there is no definition for a vehicle listed anywhere in that article.

  5. #5885
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, that isn't the "gimmick" at all. The main "gimmick" of a vehicle is being a weapons platform that allows the character to deploy weapons like missiles, laser cannons, and robots. The other aspect of it is to increase the character's speed and armor. So no, two health bars isn't even close to important, since an armor boost is essentially the same thing.
    That's not the gimmick. Because you, as the player, can already deal damage, heal or whatever you can do, mechanic-wise, in the vehicle. The whole gimmick of vehicles is having a second health bar that completely shields you from damage for as long as the second health bar holds.

    That isn't how Eject would work. It would work as a passive CD that initiates when the mech is at zero health. The Tinker would get the option to eject or simply die with the mech. If the Tinker decides to eject, they'll leave the mech and enter pilot form, and have 20% health. If they survive long enough, they can summon a new mech to replace the old one. I would suggest a talent that also gives the Tinker the option to self destruct the mech during eject and allow it to damage enemy targets. Eject would have a 20-30 minute CD.
    In other words, other than having lower health (for whatever reason), it works exactly like the vehicle mechanic, considering you can exit the vehicle prematurely.

    Again, nothing like a Druid simply shifting out of Bear or Cat form.
    And yet, if implemented as a class feature, it is highly likely that is exactly how it'll work, mechanic-wise.

    That's interesting considering that the Link you posted lists the sky golem and other shredders as vehicles.
    My bad. I meant to post this link instead.
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  6. #5886
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's not the gimmick. Because you, as the player, can already deal damage, heal or whatever you can do, mechanic-wise, in the vehicle. The whole gimmick of vehicles is having a second health bar that completely shields you from damage for as long as the second health bar holds.
    Yeah again, having a second health bar isn’t the purpose of a vehicle at all.


    In other words, other than having lower health (for whatever reason), it works exactly like the vehicle mechanic, considering you can exit the vehicle prematurely.
    Um no, since the pilot also takes damage along with the vehicle. So no, it doesn’t work exactly like the vehicle mechanic.

    And yet, if implemented as a class feature, it is highly likely that is exactly how it'll work, mechanic-wise.
    Is there a Druid mechanic you can point to that allows the Druid to cheat death by exiting Druid form?

    My bad. I meant to post this link instead.
    That really doesn’t change the fact that we have multiple examples of vehicles from that original link you posted and the majority of them don’t use the vehicle mechanic from your second link.

  7. #5887
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, that's not even close to the same thing.

    It only was brought into the game when the Monk class was introduced into WoW, because it's the staff of the Brewmaster.




    More than likely the same place where that staff was before MoP; awaiting the debut of the class it's associated with.
    And that's still a Staff type weapon, which multiple classes already use. The Staff weapon type already exists, and this is just another type of staff. It's not a different weapon type.

    Claw Packs aren't even in the game. I don't see what you're trying to compare here. I mean, if anything they're more similar to the back customization visuals we have in Shadowlands. Stuff that's given out with Covenants.

  8. #5888
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And that's still a Staff type weapon, which multiple classes already use. The Staff weapon type already exists, and this is just another type of staff. It's not a different weapon type.

    Claw Packs aren't even in the game. I don't see what you're trying to compare here. I mean, if anything they're more similar to the back customization visuals we have in Shadowlands. Stuff that's given out with Covenants.
    Backpacks are in the game, and that’s all the claw pack is; a mechanical backpack. Again, no different than the Monk staff.

  9. #5889
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Backpacks are in the game, and that’s all the claw pack is; a mechanical backpack. Again, no different than the Monk staff.
    The Monk Staff doesn't turn into a Vehicle that you use in combat as far as I'm aware. I think there is a slight difference.

  10. #5890
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Monk Staff doesn't turn into a Vehicle that you use in combat as far as I'm aware. I think there is a slight difference.
    Which is irrelevant, since that’s an ability, and like I said a few posts back, numerous abilities entered WoW only when the associated class entered the game.

    It’s also irrelevant because we’re really talking about mech form, not the claw pack.

  11. #5891
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    How is an elf-centric class dumb when elves are overwhelmingly the most popular races in the game?
    Because it doesn't meet his standards. You can see that looking over his historial: he doesn't like elves (I would say that even hates them), and therefore, everything related to them is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphabet View Post
    There should be some kind of class which will act as buffer. Unique party/raid buffs with rotation which will buff players and refill their resource in some way. I played this kind of class in DCUO. It was Controller class and if you execute your dps rotation right you will replenish some of the resource (energy) of other players. Main job of this class was CC in party. They can make it work in WoW. Lets say you will carry raid Standart and buff players with some unique yells and shit like this
    That type of class doesn't have a place in WoW sadly.
    DCUO (like Champions Online) is loosely based on the City of Heroes archetype system:
    - Tanker: the tank.
    - Defender: here we have the classic healer, but also the damage avoider through shielding allies or debuffing enemies.
    - Controller: the crowd control of the party.
    - Blaster: the glass cannon, mostly ranged, but with some melee abilities.
    - Scrapper: the melee DPS, with damage and survival in between the Tanker and the Blaster.

    And the villian counterparts being like a mix of the previous:
    - Brute: something between Tanker and Scrapper
    - Corruptor: something between Defender and Blaster
    - Dominator: something between Controller and Blaster
    - Mastermind: The pet class
    - Stalker: the stealth class, also being a melee glass cannon

    Meanwhile, WoW just follows the Trinity class system (and it does it very strictly):
    - Tank: the wall. The only one that can be hit.
    - Healer: while we have some healers that can add damage mitigation in the form of shields, they mostly rely on healing.
    - DPS: mostly glass cannons

    The controller aspect is granted to almost all classes, and the scrapper is erased everytime that it pops its head (retri forbearance, bear and cat on separate specs, nerfs to havoc survivability, etc).

  12. #5892
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread is about *all* possible new classes for WoW, not just Tinkers. The thread needs a bit of breathing room from the "pro-" and "anti-" debate about Tinkers. Let's pivot on to some other possible classes and put this rolling debate to rest.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #5893
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue_(Warcraft_III)

    Also multiple units in WC3 were considered "warriors";









    etc.

    It should also be noted that Warrior and Rogue are very generic RPG classes. They don't require the level of seeding that something like a Bard would require.
    Are you prepping for a workout? Because that was some excellent stretching!

    Bard is just as generic as Warrior and Rogue in the RPG world. I don't think they're likely in WoW, but this particular argument doesn't hold water.

  14. #5894
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Are you prepping for a workout? Because that was some excellent stretching!

    Bard is just as generic as Warrior and Rogue in the RPG world. I don't think they're likely in WoW, but this particular argument doesn't hold water.
    In the MMOs I've played, the Bard tends to be a mixture of Archers and/or Rogues.

    In any case, the main point was that such a class has never been seeded by Blizzard, and its traditional style of support gameplay has been largely rejected by WoW's trinity system. That's a rather large hinderance because that's the main appeal of the Bard class. I think in order to make the Bard a bit more tangible, Blizzard needs to give us a Bard hero character with unique abilities that show us what a Bard in WoW would actually DO, and with lore and history that can allow us to produce an expansion around that character and other Bard characters.

    Until that happens, we're just spinning our tires with that concept.

  15. #5895
    This class may have been mentioned earlier on in this thread, but Shadowhunters would be a nice new class to see. Would be interesting as a player to bond with the Loa and get the chance to play a class based around Loa empowered abilities.

  16. #5896
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah again, having a second health bar isn’t the purpose of a vehicle at all.
    We're not talking purpose. We're talking gimmick. Those are not one and the same. Don't try to move the goalposts.

    Um no, since the pilot also takes damage along with the vehicle. So no, it doesn’t work exactly like the vehicle mechanic.
    The HP loss is irrelevant, though, because we're still talking about separate health bars.

    Is there a Druid mechanic you can point to that allows the Druid to cheat death by exiting Druid form?
    I'm using the druid shapeshift mechanic because it's highly likely that's how it'll work for the mech form: changing the player's model while allowing the use of abilities normally not usable outside of mech form.

    That really doesn’t change the fact that we have multiple examples of vehicles from that original link you posted and the majority of them don’t use the vehicle mechanic from your second link.
    But those are not vehicles in the game mechanic form. I've shown you the correct link that shows we already have "vehicle mechanic" in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In the MMOs I've played, the Bard tends to be a mixture of Archers and/or Rogues.
    And paladins are a mixture of warriors and priests. And demon hunters can be argued to be a mixture of rogues and warlocks. So what's your point? :/

    In any case, the main point was that such a class has never been seeded by Blizzard,
    It has, though. Bards are actual characters within Warcraft, we have evidence that music, on its own, has magical power, and we have bards and bard-like characters casting actual spells.

    and its traditional style of support gameplay has been largely rejected by WoW's trinity system.
    As repeated numerous times by others and ignored just as many times by you, bards don't have to be "support".

    That's a rather large hinderance because that's the main appeal of the Bard class.
    You don't get to speak for others about what they like and what they want out of a bard class, especially since you are arguing against the class at every opportunity.

    Until that happens, we're just spinning our tires with that concept.
    You are spinning tires. We got our feet firmly planted on the ground using in-game evidence, while you cling to your arbitrary restrictions.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  17. #5897
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #5898
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And paladins are a mixture of warriors and priests. And demon hunters can be argued to be a mixture of rogues and warlocks. So what's your point? :/
    I wouldn't consider them generic classes either.

    It has, though. Bards are actual characters within Warcraft, we have evidence that music, on its own, has magical power, and we have bards and bard-like characters casting actual spells.
    We had Arthas, Chen, and Illidan for the Monk, DK, and DH classes. What character do we have lined up for Bards?


    As repeated numerous times by others and ignored just as many times by you, bards don't have to be "support".
    Then what purpose do they serve?


    You don't get to speak for others about what they like and what they want out of a bard class, especially since you are arguing against the class at every opportunity.
    Again, it is the support aspect that makes the Bard and Dancer aspects appealing. Turning the Bard into just another magic user strips away the uniqueness and purpose of the concept. At that point you might as well just divide the music/sound abilities among the existing classes (which Blizzard has largely done).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    Yeah, I just don't see a path for a Bard without a strong support foundation. It's kind of their niche, and honestly it flows nicely with the concept of music as a magic source. You take that away and what do we have? A Bard shooting fireballs by singing? A melee Bard shouting while slashing a target? In a game without a non-healing support role available, where does a Bard fit into the equation?

    I think it's quite telling that in that Bard concept thread, a good portion of the responses were "You did an amazing job and clearly put in a lot of work, but this just doesn't feel like something that belongs in WoW".

  19. #5899
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the classes I want to see most in WoW would be, in no particular order of importance: the Necromancer, Tinker, Runemaster, and Spellbreaker (in the form of an Arcane Knight type of class). I think a Bard could also be an interesting addition, although I'd hope they'd take a more original tack on such a class as opposed to the more general one.
    Yeah, they'd have to go full ETC with Bard if they do it at all, but I don't know if they'd ever lean into the zaniness of the franchise that much.

  20. #5900
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, I just don't see a path for a Bard without a strong support foundation. It's kind of their niche, and honestly it flows nicely with the concept of music as a magic source. You take that away and what do we have? A Bard shooting fireballs by singing? A melee Bard shouting while slashing a target? In a game without a non-healing support role available, where does a Bard fit into the equation?

    I think it's quite telling that in that Bard concept thread, a good portion of the responses were "You did an amazing job and clearly put in a lot of work, but this just doesn't feel like something that belongs in WoW".
    I kind of like the idea of the Bard from the "Dragon Age" series, which in that world was a combination of the classical musical storyteller and also a skilled assassin. In classical D&D the Bard is sort of a jack of all trades type of class, combining a Rogue, a Sorcerer/Wizard, and a basic Fighter. How that gets implemented would require some thought, but you could easily wind up with a class who can functionally be a melee DPS (for example wielding a guitar as a melee weapon, taking a kind of Thrash Metal approach to the Bard stereotype), a ranged DPS (using music to generate spell-like effects and/or DoT's), and also a healer using music to heal and/or buff, similar to a Disc Priest.

    Personally speaking I don't have a lot of interest in a Bard class myself, but I could see it working in WoW with a bit of work.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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