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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Blizzard is facing a massive brain drain. Developers that worked a decade for a company and shaped the state of the game should voice their opinion why they left, especially when the reasons are exactly the criticism players have about the company / the game. Everything he said is said by the community for years now, yet nothing changes. Shadowlands will be the last expansion in this style because it simply doesn't work.
    Everything this community says about Blizzard they've been saying about Blizzard since at least WarCraft 2. Since WarCraft 2 I've been hearing that Blizzard doesn't care about the community, is lazy, is out of touch, just wants our money, is shit and not innovative enough, caters to the wrong crowd, is staffed by morons, knows less than the community about their product, etc. The Blizzard community is simultaneously one of the most dedicated communities and one of the most toxic.

    People leave gaming companies constantly. Look at any very successful game company and see how many people are still there after 10 years / 20 years / 30 years. The main difference here with Blizzard is that we actually tend to know the big names in the company because they engaged with the community. (Something else we've been accusing them of not doing enough since the 90s fwiw)

    This guy left and I wish him the best but he cited some really stupid reasons for reason. The emphasis on guilds? lol. Yeah guilds are necessary in Classic because the only real character progression is in raids and a guild helps with that. Forcing guilds on people because this guy likes the idea would be a horrible business decision. So if that and Ashran are the best he's got, probably good that he's peacing out. I loved going into Classic and hearing everyone talk about "the community" that had been lost somewhere along the way in WoW because I was sure it wasn't going to play out the way they thought and surprise it didn't. There was a sense of community for about 2 weeks and then it was like retail except somehow more soulless. Just farming the same content that's completely brain dead for a rare trinket / BIS piece with 4 other people doing the same thing so we could faceroll a very trivial raid. Repeat for BWL, repeat for AQ. I probably won't even login for Naxx. After about a month or so of Classic it became just logging in for raid time / checking auctions / buying stuff / buffs and doing the raid with 39 people that honestly couldn't care less about each other. So just like retail, except trivial, and you're carrying more people in your raid group.

    You know what style for an MMO doesn't work? What this guy is advocating. It's been tried, and it has failed every single time, most notably with WildStar.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Maybe you just need to get to the higher end of ladders, where people who take the game more seriously are. There it's far less toxicity and the communication is rather splendid.
    And you will find the same with WoW where tons of friendly guilds exist while its the lower levels of insecure children trying to bully others online to prove they arent a basement dwelling troglodyte who make up the toxic guilds trying to seem better then they are.

    Almost as if its the people, not the game and both genres are filled with the same kinds of people.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    I'm talking reality, not what a person who is trying to win fans by agreeing to the vocal minorty because he is starting a new firm he wants to succeed.
    Yeah, talking about his personal failures to drum up support for his new game studio that wasn't even announced at this point and it's entirely unknown whether that will actually choose to create a game that actually focuses on social aspects.

    Mate, put down the tinfoil hat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    You're forcing people to communicate, that is dictatorship, not freedom.
    Imagine believing that Vanilla WoW was a dictatorship.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    So if that and Ashran are the best he's got, probably good that he's peacing out.
    Rather than copypaste what everyone else is saying, maybe you should check the list on his website which lists his credits on WoW (which he mentioned in the video).

    Wotlk:
    Main Class Designer on Druid, Shaman, Warlock, Hunter, Priest
    'Wintergrasp' PvP Zone Design (Contributing)

    Cata:
    Main Class Designer on Druid, Shaman, Warlock, Hunter, Priest
    'Rated Battleground' System (Contributing)

    MoP:
    Designed Monk Class (Gameplay/Lead)
    Various Class Design (Priest, Hunter, Druid, Shaman)

    WoD:
    Ashran World PvP Zone Feature
    Various Class Design

    Legion:
    Honor Talent' (PvP Talent) System
    Designed almost all of the 'Honor Talents'
    'Ashamane Fall' and 'Black Rook Hold' Arenas (Gameplay/Lead)
    World PvP Quests
    Seething Shore Battleground

    BfA:
    'War Mode' System
    'Hook Point', 'Mugambala' and 'The Robodrome' Arenas (Gameplay/Lead)
    Arathi Basin and Warsong Gulch Battleground Uprez (Gameplay/Lead)
    'Epic Battlegrounds' Feature

    SL:
    War Mode Content (World Quests, Events etc.)
    Bastion Arena (Gameplay)
    Shadow Priest Overhaul
    Monk Legendaries

    Spells he created:
    Leap of Faith • Chaos Bolt • Penance • Demonic Circle • Disengage • Nourish • Feral Spirit • Power: Word Barrier • Starfall • Divine Hymn • Wild Growth • Atonement • Guardian Spirit • Mind Sear • Rain from Above • Thunderstorm • Roll • Avenging Crusader • Soothing Mists • Starsurge • Void Shift • Exotic Pet Training • Mass Invisibility • Kill Shot • Flying Serpent Kick • Thoughtsteal • Explosive Shot • Solar Beam • Hunter Pet Families • Tree of Life Form (v2) • Greater Pyroblast

    Is everything on that list amazing?
    Nope, but i also wouldn't discard people that worked on Class design from Wotlk to MoP.

    And i repeat what i'm telling other people: Check out who has worked on Ashran as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    You know what style for an MMO doesn't work? What this guy is advocating. It's been tried, and it has failed every single time, most notably with WildStar.
    I find it fucking hilarious that people keep mentioning Wildstar.
    Wildstar didn't even manage to win over the audience from WoW that was supposed to be catering to, which should be a pretty massive red flag that the game just sucked.
    Not to mention that Wildstar primarily focused on the hardcore gameplay aspect, rather social elements.

    And catering to a certain audience is absolutely meaningless if your game still sucks.
    Doesn't matter if i prefer FPS over RPG's, when FPS Game X is terrible.

    But yeah, keep on repeating that deadbeat argument of Wildstar.

    But who cares, social aspects, hardcore PvE content, everything the same dumbass elitist BS in the mind of this "voice of casual audience".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-11-20 at 05:07 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    cus it is
    Don't miss your ony buff trolling forums
    complex raid phases != fun or difficult

    Sometimes less is more. Search for "minimal" in google.

    Oh, and world buffs are not mandatory you know. This is what makes an MMO-RPG a good game, having got the option to choose

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    "I think in a virtual world, in an MMO, really the players are the story."

    This stands true for EvE online and to an extend that no other MMO can reach. But look at the number of EvE's subs... And I am not just talking about absolute numbers, but also about the fact that they have been declining during the past years. Additionally, WoW is not a sandbox kind of game, so you can't really put the above into practice. Not really. It's just something that sounds nice, but it's abstract in reality.

    My opinion is what he implies is something that sounds good in theory (to some) but would have an overall negative impact to nowadays WoW. It's something that could work in a niche MMO, but not in a mainstream one. Imposing content restrictions or other gimmicks in order to "force" people into guilds... can it bring an overall positive outcome? No, it can't. Giving small, sensible incentives is enough and we have this. It's wrong to take it further and make people who enjoy playing casually or solo or just unguilded feel that WoW is not a game for them. That's a mistake nowadays.

    Guilds (and communities) still matter, they are still beneficial enough and they are better off without members that feel forced to join... Forcing people into guilds with the prospect that they will bond with each other and thank you in the end for "forcing" them is a silly and naive thought. This could work for a small percentage of players, but in overall it would have a strong negative impact.

    Just a quick comment, I have no interest in elaborating any further. Those who get it, that the year is not 2004 nor 2005 nor 2006 and that the average WoW player's mentality has changed irreversibly, get it. Those who don't, well, they never will. They are free to play classic. TBC is around the corner and that was the expansion I had the most fun in. But that was many years ago. Would I play it again? No. I'd rather play Shadowlands.
    Just going to say, if your evidence that this won't work because a game with this sort of system is dying in numbers, I have to ask what you think has been happening to wow for the last 10 years.

  6. #66
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Well...maybe all those folks leaving will soon make the next great game...and all of us happy.

    I had that thought all the way back when Bill Roper left Blizzard...to me the mastermind behind Diablo 2 and his ideas for Hellgate sounded awesome and game changing

    I shall leave it here.

    Interesting thought: All those guys that quit Blizzard used to work together awesomely to make WoW the epic experience that we loves. But now...they don't come together to create another perfect storms...they all go their own way.

  7. #67
    It is always wonderful to read how people here on this board simply hide reality when they don't want to see or hear the truth.

  8. #68
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Blizzard players are addicts like i was once who will eat anything Blizzard throws their way.

    Is really eye opening.
    ..and what are you now?

    Are you not playing Blizzard games at all?
    What games do you play who are different from the Blizzard concept
    Why are you here? To rescue lost souls and open eyes?

    Are there only "Blizzard addicts"? What is that even? I mean..I don't care about OW, SC, HS, HotS and barely about D3...who am I? I don't seem to qualify as "who will eat anything Blizzard throws their way"

    Really curious what your agenda is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbselle View Post
    It is always wonderful to read how people here on this board simply hide reality when they don't want to see or hear the truth.
    What is "the truth" though?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    Well yeah. WoW is currently a soulless shell of a game that once had substance. It has become a 100% corporate Skinner box with zero emphasis on customer enjoyment, rather predatory FOMO techniques and pixel collection garbage.

    The game is trash and has been trash for the last 2 years. There is nothing redeemable about it, and blizzard as a company is failing so WoW will never thrive again. The game is dead, maybe not in playerbase wise, but it is dead in terms of gameplay and actual enjoyment. It is pure trash.
    That's like, your opinion.
    Fact is, gameplaywise it's still not trash. It's clearly worse, but man. Raiding was still fun. BG's were still fun. Arena was fun (except during corruption times. Was fun at first, but man. Getting it during the content drought...)
    Blizzard recognized that Vanilla players want the experience back. Alot of people found out, they didn't liked it. Alot still did, and do. But do they who didn't enjoy, make threads about it on the internet? Not too many. Since not too many people like to admit they were wrong.

    Fun is pretty subjective. I do enjoy heroic raids with friends, a bit pvp to fool on the side, lore discussions and play alts. And while BFA can't compare to the blast I had in MoP, it was still enough "game" there. I didn't felt forced to farm azerite, or spamm islands, or do all this stuff. I'm not a Mythic raider, and I'm comfortable in the heroic tier of content, while dabbling in the other spots of the game.
    Are GCD on dps cd's bad? Ofc they are.
    Will they kill the game and make it soulless? No.
    Is the game dead? Also no.

    I don't mind that the game focusses on the 'champion', same as I don't mind being the 'warrior of light/darkness' in FF14.


    My thoughts aside:

    I can understand you are mad about the game that you clearly seem to be passionate about, otherwise you wouldn't write about it here. But generalizing your opinion onto a blanket is just a big meh. Complain about key points, seek out arguments that people can learn and share that follow your mindset, don't just call it 'shit' and throw around some generalized words like "gameplay".

    There's plenty of points to criticize, pick the one you disagree most with, and start from there.
    Last edited by LordTakeo; 2020-11-20 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Typos
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Rather than copypaste what everyone else is saying, maybe you should check the list on his website which lists his credits on WoW (which he mentioned in the video).

    -snip. Some of the worst content in all of WoW.-

    Is everything on that list amazing?
    Nope, but i also wouldn't discard people that worked on Class design from Wotlk to MoP.

    And i repeat what i'm telling other people: Check out who has worked on Ashran as well.

    I find it fucking hilarious that people keep mentioning Wildstar.
    Wildstar didn't even manage to win over the audience from WoW that was supposed to be catering to, which should be a pretty massive red flag that the game just sucked.
    Not to mention that Wildstar primarily focused on the hardcore gameplay aspect, rather social elements.

    And catering to a certain audience is absolutely meaningless if your game still sucks.
    Doesn't matter if i prefer FPS over RPG's, when FPS Game X is terrible.

    But yeah, keep on repeating that deadbeat argument of Wildstar.

    But who cares, social aspects, hardcore PvE content, everything the same dumbass elitist BS in the mind of this "voice of casual audience".
    Go ahead and look any other successful game studio and then tell me how many people are there after 10 / 20 /30 years. I'll wait. It's a really small list. The gaming industry has a really high turnover and Blizzard is actually pretty good about talent retention. Way higher than the industry standard. Just so you're aware. The only Blizzard game that seems to have abnormally high turn over is Hearthstone that I'm aware of, but I also don't pay attention to Overwatch at all.

    I apologize, I just went with the largest failure in his pedigree, I didn't list out of all of his other things he worked on, most of them being universally hated particularly in the realm of PvP. I'm not saying he doesn't have any redeeming qualities and I'm not saying he won't be an asset wherever he lands, but his stated reasoning is just hilarious.

    I use WildStar as an example for the same reason that I used Ashran, it's the most well known. Search the internet for MMOs that have shut down. Most of them since 2008~ have come with the promise of going back to the roots of the genre. Even Blizzard couldn't make it work. They got a massive cash infusion due to the hype of Classic and then Classic dropped off fast. The population drop off was almost immediate and shocking if you weren't playing on one of the absolutely packed severs and even those were mere shadows of themselves a couple months in. People were already talking about being ready for TBC within a couple months of Classic's release.

    Don't give me that elitist nonsense I may be a Mythic raider but I advocate for a lot of the casual things in this game because it's better for the health of the game overall if the casuals who outnumber us are happy. The only other truly successful MMO in the market is FFXIV and that's super casual. So, you know.
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  11. #71
    @det

    I was speaking of the HS battlepass situation and whaling on HS, justifiying the cost of HS and not playing a game like LoR where they respect your players.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by larissa895 View Post
    Game designer Chris Kaleiki was an employee of Blizzard for 13 years, and in that time worked on World of Warcraft PvP, class design (in particular the monk), and its Ashran zone, among others. He's been there so long he's got two characters and an item named after him. But this year Kaleiki left Blizzard, and in a 15-minute video posted to YouTube he explains why.

    "For a while now, probably too long, I've just been unhappy with the state of the game," Kaleiki says, noting that the addition of Classic highlighted the differences between its vision and that of the modern game, which he describes as "a little muddled". An example he gives is the changing importance of guilds.

    "I think in Classic the guild's a big deal," he says. "To do anything at endgame you really need to be in a guild. What this does is it creates interdependence among players, where they really need each other in order to be successful. And I think this can feel really restrictive at times, but ultimately what it really does is it creates cohesion, it creates community."
    What he mentions about guilds is true, but it just happened to be a HUGE turn off to most casual players. Looking at it from a business standpoint, it makes sense that placing less importance on guilds was a good move for the company. The hard core gamers that are in guilds going for world/server firsts are going to sub no matter what. The people Blizzard were losing were the casuals - the ones who just wanted to log in, level a character, and enjoy the lore, from start to finish.

    Imagine buying Spider Man: Miles Morales and not being able to beat the game because you have to find a group of 10 to 25 people to do it with. The casuals got to a certain point and hit a wall where they couldn't access the endgame content. And the endgame raiders gatekept and prevented the casuals from seeing the endgame content without paying for carry runs. Then came cross realm raiding. Then came LFR. Then came the dungeon/raid finder. Now all of a sudden these casuals could do this endgame content on their schedule. Before I quit 6 years ago, I raided constantly with other guilds who needed fillers on my alts thanks to cross realm raiding, and I made many more personal connections because of it. I didn't have to apply to a guild on another server and pay $25 to transfer a toon. I could just join their raid. I don't understand why he says the interdependence isn't still there. If I find a group of people I like raiding with, who raid on my schedule, but were on a different server, I was SOL. Now I can just add them as friends and have them invite me.

    My only issue with WoW's current state is the fact that legendaries don't seem to mean anything anymore. You're literally handed the legendary in an introductory quest. It's harder for me to find a piece of gear that has haste and mastery on it than it is for me to get a legendary. This seems backwards. Another thing I noticed even though I just came back to WoW for SL recently, is that content seems gated behind time (dailies and weeklies) rather than by difficulty. You can only progress so far until your legendary reaches X level - but you can't increase that level more than one or 2 times a week. I really hope this isn't how they approach Torghast - but honestly I have a feeling this is exactly what the plan is.

  13. #73
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    This is 2020, not 2008. Much has changed throughout the gaming landscape. Believe it or not, people and ideas do too. Unless you have a time machine, chasing after what once was, is a slippery slope. Maybe it is a good choice for him to move on to a new project, and allow a new brain to join the team. 12 years is a good amount of time to be a dev on one project, by industry standards. In the mean time, sit back, relax and enjoy the story being told. Dont like it? Look for something else that is more suitable for your tastes.

  14. #74
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    @det

    I was speaking of the HS battlepass situation and whaling on HS, justifiying the cost of HS and not playing a game like LoR where they respect your players.
    Fair enough...whatever that situation was.

    Was it maybe like the annual pass for WoW? I mean...that got criticism despite being 12 months for the price of 10...and a mount...and D3 for free. Yeah...hate on Blizzard because ppl can't keep their dick in their pants...oh wait...their credit card away from compulsory purchases.

    Also: There is still some stuff you neglected to answer from my post...wink wink nudge nudge

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Go ahead and look any other successful game studio and then tell me how many people are there after 10 / 20 /30 years.
    Okay, what does that have to do with this discussion?

    Game development is a brutal industry, nothing new there, assuming that the person that sparked this topic leaves because of ideological differences is one thing but i'm fairly certain that a sizeable chunk simply comes from people no longer willing to crunch their ass off for shitty payment.
    And this absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    The gaming industry has a really high turnover and Blizzard is actually pretty good about talent retention. Way higher than the industry standard. Just so you're aware. The only Blizzard game that seems to have abnormally high turn over is Hearthstone that I'm aware of, but I also don't pay attention to Overwatch at all.
    I am curious about your sources on that, not because it's somehow relevant to this discussion, but simply because i'd love to see that backed up.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I use WildStar as an example for the same reason that I used Ashran, it's the most well known.
    Doesn't mean that it's pretty damn faulty to use it because it completely excludes other very relevant factors for its failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Search the internet for MMOs that have shut down. Most of them since 2008~ have come with the promise of going back to the roots of the genre.
    You mean shortly after WoW exploded in terms of sub numbers and a lot of investors wanted a slice of that pie?
    Could it just be that a lot of studios (mostly funded by those investors) wanted to churn out their own MMO ASAP to compete with WoW, rather than attempting to be its own thing?

    Video games in particular tend cannibalize each other, there is rarely room for multiple games of the same genre at once unless you have a loyal audience, at least in the Online multiplayer area.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    They got a massive cash infusion due to the hype of Classic and then Classic dropped off fast.
    The fact that everybody has already seen that content, Blizzard making it artifically worse to reproduce authenticity and it having a whole slew of issues due to being a 15 year old game may have had some impact on that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    The only other truly successful MMO in the market is FFXIV and that's super casual. So, you know.
    Funny thing, most FFXIV player are saying that the game is far more social than WoW, which this topic is actually about.
    FFXIV has their audience and they cater to it, WoW has gone into every direction at once and ultimately ends up pleasing nobody.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-11-20 at 08:10 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Fair enough...whatever that situation was.

    Was it maybe like the annual pass for WoW? I mean...that got criticism despite being 12 months for the price of 10...and a mount...and D3 for free. Yeah...hate on Blizzard because ppl can't keep their dick in their pants...oh wait...their credit card away from compulsory purchases.

    Also: There is still some stuff you neglected to answer from my post...wink wink nudge nudge
    The situation is comparing a card game that came out this year (LoR) to one that's 6 years old (hearthstone) and being surprised there's a steep difference in the amount of cards to be collected.

    Mind you, LoR is made by Riot who has more than their own fair share of haters thinking the company "doesn't respect the players" so it's not like they're free of criticism.

    Not saying you agree with them, if that isn't clear. Just more of tacking onto it.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Fair enough...whatever that situation was.

    Was it maybe like the annual pass for WoW? I mean...that got criticism despite being 12 months for the price of 10...and a mount...and D3 for free. Yeah...hate on Blizzard because ppl can't keep their dick in their pants...oh wait...their credit card away from compulsory purchases.

    Also: There is still some stuff you neglected to answer from my post...wink wink nudge nudge
    Im here because i like to preach crap i think (>_<) and am lonely and bored ofcourse

    If you felt what i have felt with Legends of Runeterra...the love...the caring...the warm embrace of respect for the playerbase..
    You would then be able to "look back" at HS community and feel sorry for them. A LOT

    And watching videos about this stuff...you see people being disrespected non stop and still being happy in the end...is just dumb to watch...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The situation is comparing a card game that came out this year (LoR) to one that's 6 years old (hearthstone) and being surprised there's a steep difference in the amount of cards to be collected.

    Mind you, LoR is made by Riot who has more than their own fair share of haters thinking the company "doesn't respect the players" so it's not like they're free of criticism.

    Not saying you agree with them, if that isn't clear. Just more of tacking onto it.
    This is the video that started it all i guess

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2_..._channel=Solem

    Sorry if i didnt know the details apart from this. I watched a couple other videos but everything is so recent

  18. #78
    Nah man, it's totally speculative that the original designer of the Monk class was unsatisfied with the state of the game

  19. #79
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im here because i like to preach crap i think (>_<) and am lonely and bored ofcourse
    Aren't we all :P ?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    What he mentions about guilds is true, but it just happened to be a HUGE turn off to most casual players. Looking at it from a business standpoint, it makes sense that placing less importance on guilds was a good move for the company. The hard core gamers that are in guilds going for world/server firsts are going to sub no matter what. The people Blizzard were losing were the casuals - the ones who just wanted to log in, level a character, and enjoy the lore, from start to finish.

    Imagine buying Spider Man: Miles Morales and not being able to beat the game because you have to find a group of 10 to 25 people to do it with. The casuals got to a certain point and hit a wall where they couldn't access the endgame content. And the endgame raiders gatekept and prevented the casuals from seeing the endgame content without paying for carry runs. Then came cross realm raiding. Then came LFR. Then came the dungeon/raid finder. Now all of a sudden these casuals could do this endgame content on their schedule. Before I quit 6 years ago, I raided constantly with other guilds who needed fillers on my alts thanks to cross realm raiding, and I made many more personal connections because of it. I didn't have to apply to a guild on another server and pay $25 to transfer a toon. I could just join their raid. I don't understand why he says the interdependence isn't still there. If I find a group of people I like raiding with, who raid on my schedule, but were on a different server, I was SOL. Now I can just add them as friends and have them invite me.

    My only issue with WoW's current state is the fact that legendaries don't seem to mean anything anymore. You're literally handed the legendary in an introductory quest. It's harder for me to find a piece of gear that has haste and mastery on it than it is for me to get a legendary. This seems backwards. Another thing I noticed even though I just came back to WoW for SL recently, is that content seems gated behind time (dailies and weeklies) rather than by difficulty. You can only progress so far until your legendary reaches X level - but you can't increase that level more than one or 2 times a week. I really hope this isn't how they approach Torghast - but honestly I have a feeling this is exactly what the plan is.
    And its not like they made guilds worse, they provided thing to do that don't need big guilds.
    If guilds changed its not because Blizzard forced them to change but because the people in the guilds changed.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

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