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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I mean it clearly is the case I set my own wage and argue for it. If my employer doesn't want to pay it I simply go work for one that will. This is how every employment situation works. You decide your worth not the company.
    Not really true. Your worth is based on what a company is willing to pay you, which is somewhat based on what the industry/ market determines as the worth of the position you're trying to fill. You can't just go around asking for a six figure salary for a position that doesn't pay six figures at any company, they'd laugh at you.

    Also, depending on your field, there aren't that many employers willing to hire anyone, let alone someone that's going to aggressively negotiate their worth when there's currently a sea of people who would take the position for less. So unless you're literally traveling the world to find that perfect employer, which not very many people have the time, money or ability to do, your options are severely limited.

    With that said, what you're saying isn't false, it's just a bit of an overstatement on just how much control you have in this situation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    now you have 40-60 year olds doing them - imagine working for 40 years and not learning even 1 valued by society skill to have to work there. depressing
    I promise you they've learned some valuable skills in that time frame. The problem is, many employers won't see it that way. The trick is how you market yourself.

    Working in fast food doesn't take much in the way of outside training, but not just anyone can do it well. Anyone might be qualified to, yes, but that doesn't mean they will do well. I'm sure everyone knows someone they work with that is perfectly qualified to be doing their job, but suck at it, because of who they are as a person. I'm also sure everyone has had experiences with people in fast food that are really good at their job, and also with people that are really bad at their job.....how many times have you gotten your order and it's wrong, after taking WAY longer than it should to take your order? Or gone to the same place and been pleasantly surprised that they got everything correct, were able to quickly and accurately take your order, etc...? That's what I'm talking about.

  2. #202
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Not really true. Your worth is based on what a company is willing to pay you, which is somewhat based on what the industry/ market determines as the worth of the position you're trying to fill. You can't just go around asking for a six figure salary for a position that doesn't pay six figures at any company, they'd laugh at you.
    We should also point out that "what a company is willing to pay you" is not equivalent to "the value of your labor, in general" or even "the value of your labor, specifically to that company".

    Want a super clear example? Slaves. They were paid, by virtue of being slaves, $0. And yet, entire economies were predicated on the value of their labor and what that labor produced.

    Same goes for today. Labor is vastly devalued, and that's why wealth inequality is so grossly attenuated to the megarich. The idea that these wages are somehow the actual production value produced by that labor is just . . . factually wrong. Employees are almost always on the losing side of that evaluation. And that becomes more consistently true the lower on the totem pole we're talking; the exceptions are mostly at the executive level.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    We should also point out that "what a company is willing to pay you" is not equivalent to "the value of your labor, in general" or even "the value of your labor, specifically to that company".
    100% True.

    Want a super clear example? Slaves. They were paid, by virtue of being slaves, $0. And yet, entire economies were predicated on the value of their labor and what that labor produced.

    Same goes for today. Labor is vastly devalued, and that's why wealth inequality is so grossly attenuated to the megarich. The idea that these wages are somehow the actual production value produced by that labor is just . . . factually wrong. Employees are almost always on the losing side of that evaluation. And that becomes more consistently true the lower on the totem pole we're talking; the exceptions are mostly at the executive level.
    Labor with no other skills, absolutely yes. Just needing to be a body to fill in to do the work will always be under valued because literally anyone can do it. However, even in those fields, there is a pretty huge range of pay between the people who truly are just bodies and the people who are skilled at those types of things and can do it faster, more accurately and with less micromanaging. As you get into the more skilled labor sectors, where the work can only be done by someone with an education, training or specific skill set, while still undervalued, the discrepancy is less pronounced.

    I agree with everything you're saying, I'll just add that the reason the exceptions are the executive level people is because it's those executives that make the call on how much everyone gets paid, including themselves, so of course they're going to be super well paid. The system is unfair, especially in cases where those executives can't do any of the work they're overseeing and the workers they're overseeing are the reason they're able to make so much (which is almost everywhere).

    At some point in the iteration of a company the workers are absolutely essential workers, whereas the executives could probably disappear and not very much would change, at least in the short to medium term. Long term, companies need that high level oversight from talented individuals to navigate through the economy and stay relevant as things change. But that's a different discussion.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Yes prices would go down but your failing to understand the key dynamic here.
    HAx37, and my add HA! to that. They wouldn't, not a bit.

    It is laborer who sets the worth of their labor not the company. You reversed the relationship.
    Not sure where you think employees get to do that in most retail/grocery stores. It may say "what are you looking for" when it comes to salary, but they have a minimum and maximum and it's usually the same low ass number.

    Wages haven't increased because the value of unskilled labor hasn't increased in value.
    And every company out there trying to keep their employees with the lowest wages they can so the government can subsidize their greed. You can keep thinking Amazon has their employees best interests at heart, but you're only fooling yourself and no one else.

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  5. #205
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Loving our capitalist friends who argue that time has lost value over time... somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  6. #206
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Loving our capitalist friends who argue that time has lost value over time... somehow.
    Its weird how people love slavery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  7. #207
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Can't wait for Janet Yellen to push hard for gutting those programs because of the Debt and for all Liberals on this forum to rationalize that its a good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
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  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Can't wait for Janet Yellen to push hard for gutting those programs because of the Debt and for all Liberals on this forum to rationalize that its a good thing.
    That would imply they are as delusional as certain other posters.
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  9. #209
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Can't wait for Janet Yellen to push hard for gutting those programs because of the Debt and for all Liberals on this forum to rationalize that its a good thing.
    Can’t wait for you to say shit about Trump defunding social security right now, while you act like Miss Cleo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    That would imply they are as delusional as certain other posters.
    Trump is actively defunding the programs they claim Yellen will defund, while the only thing they said on the subject... “Trump can’t hurt you now”... WTF? He is actively defunding social security... not Yellen will... Trump is...
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  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Can’t wait for you to say shit about Trump defunding social security right now, while you act like Miss Cleo...

    - - - Updated - - -



    Trump is actively defunding the programs they claim Yellen will defund, while the only thing they said on the subject... “Trump can’t hurt you now”... WTF? He is actively defunding social security... not Yellen will... Trump is...
    I feel like I need to clarify. For Yellen to defund these programs and liberals justifying it as a good thing would imply liberals are as delusional as our resident Trump supporters (and Theo).
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  11. #211
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    I feel like I need to clarify. For Yellen to defund these programs and liberals justifying it as a good thing would imply liberals are as delusional as our resident Trump supporters (and Theo).
    With how wallmart is getting defended in this thread for its shitty practices, I will not be surprised if they justify it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  12. #212
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    I feel like I need to clarify. For Yellen to defund these programs and liberals justifying it as a good thing would imply liberals are as delusional as our resident Trump supporters (and Theo).
    I am willing to bet money that you guys simple reflexively cheerlead and recite party lines without question.

    Making this comment by you an incredible act of projection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am willing to bet money that you guys simple reflexively cheerlead and recite party lines without question.

    Making this comment by you an incredible act of projection.
    i bet you think that since Trumpbots act like this people supporting Biden and Democrats will all do the same.....

    Though we did not see this happen during Obama.
    Sure there were some zealots but come on even you do not believe the statement that you are making.
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  14. #214
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    I feel like I need to clarify. For Yellen to defund these programs and liberals justifying it as a good thing would imply liberals are as delusional as our resident Trump supporters (and Theo).
    Oh totally, just spelling it out from my memory.
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    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  15. #215
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am willing to bet money that you guys simple reflexively cheerlead and recite party lines without question.

    Making this comment by you an incredible act of projection.
    Coco would rate this shitpost a 2/10.
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  16. #216
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am willing to bet money that you guys simple reflexively cheerlead and recite party lines without question.
    Deal... How much money? What’s your metric? How many of my posts do I need to present, with points no one else was making at the time?

    My method is written in my location... Solve et coagula... dissolve it, then put it back together.

    Making this comment by you an incredible act of projection.
    That’s literally what he said about you... that’s what you quoted him saying... stick to the bizarre concepts like lizards evolving into birds, my dear anthropologist assistant. lol
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Not really true. Your worth is based on what a company is willing to pay you, which is somewhat based on what the industry/ market determines as the worth of the position you're trying to fill. You can't just go around asking for a six figure salary for a position that doesn't pay six figures at any company, they'd laugh at you.

    Also, depending on your field, there aren't that many employers willing to hire anyone, let alone someone that's going to aggressively negotiate their worth when there's currently a sea of people who would take the position for less. So unless you're literally traveling the world to find that perfect employer, which not very many people have the time, money or ability to do, your options are severely limited.

    With that said, what you're saying isn't false, it's just a bit of an overstatement on just how much control you have in this situation.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I promise you they've learned some valuable skills in that time frame. The problem is, many employers won't see it that way. The trick is how you market yourself.

    Working in fast food doesn't take much in the way of outside training, but not just anyone can do it well. Anyone might be qualified to, yes, but that doesn't mean they will do well. I'm sure everyone knows someone they work with that is perfectly qualified to be doing their job, but suck at it, because of who they are as a person. I'm also sure everyone has had experiences with people in fast food that are really good at their job, and also with people that are really bad at their job.....how many times have you gotten your order and it's wrong, after taking WAY longer than it should to take your order? Or gone to the same place and been pleasantly surprised that they got everything correct, were able to quickly and accurately take your order, etc...? That's what I'm talking about.
    I think what is misunderstood here is people think I am talking about extremes. No easing the minimum wage wont make people homeless I just doubt it will have much as living expenses would quickly increase to match it. The counter example given was using the current model of inflation that doesn't take into account sudden and significant wage increases over a short period of time.

    As for selling your labor you have every right to sell it at what you value it has and a company has every right to buy from the cheapest seller.

    The current problem with the market is the massive amount of people who don't have any labor to offer the justifies the current minimum wage much less more. A lot of people here have this weird philosophy that just endless consumption without equivalent work is somehow sustainable and it just isn't...

  18. #218
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    The current problem with the market is the massive amount of people who don't have any labor to offer the justifies the current minimum wage much less more. A lot of people here have this weird philosophy that just endless consumption without equivalent work is somehow sustainable and it just isn't...
    Nah, I'm fairly sure the current problem with the market has something to do with this.



    Let's also not forget...



    I'm looking forward to seeing what horseshit gets concocted to explain away a blatant problem with wealth inequality as a function of people getting less qualified over time when the opposite is the case.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2020-11-25 at 06:45 AM.
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  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Loving our capitalist friends who argue that time has lost value over time... somehow.
    im assuming you are trying to be sarcastic about oportunity cost without knowing something like that exists :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

    and yes - time that we have is literaly the most valuable resource every human posses

    after all its one of very few most limited resources that you have access too .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Nah, I'm fairly sure the current problem with the market has something to do with this.



    Let's also not forget...


    I'm looking forward to seeing what horseshit gets concocted to explain away a blatant problem with wealth inequality as a function of people getting less qualified over time when the opposite is the case.
    where you see problem others see reality - which is because of this you are able to live with comfort level that was inacessible to any of your ancestors - unless they were filthy rich .

    imagine time travel of 100 years - and telling your average 30 year old person that you are able to take credit for home, car and 216378127 other things with working 40 hours a week . that your closet is so full of clothes that you toss them away etc etc .

    while he most likely was just renting tiny room , had 1 shirt 1 trousers , patched shoes and barely was able to afford food while working 60 hours a week .

    people dont even know how good they have it nowadays

    they always go back to bs US stereotypes of 1 white man being able to aford house and food for his kids and wife from his salary - while not speaking about unimaginable numbers of immigrants/afroamerican who lived in extreme powerty and were exploited by state/company in which he worked

    you shuld have asked average afro-american how glorius 50s were - im sure they would be prasing those times

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    The current problem with the market is the massive amount of people who don't have any labor to offer the justifies the current minimum wage much less more. A lot of people here have this weird philosophy that just endless consumption without equivalent work is somehow sustainable and it just isn't...
    The current problem (and the forever problem) with the market is the population growth and automation have outstripped job growth causing supply to far outstrip demand (unless for example your remuneration is being artificially increased because you're mates with the guy who decides what people get paid).
    This isn't actually necessarily a huge issue in itself, the real kicker hits when you factor in stockholders demanding year on year growth out of companies (not just profit) which leads to massive inflation and a rising cost of living that outstrips wage growth.
    The ironic part is this isn't even sustainable long term for the companies as eventually, it's going to get to the point where not even the "rich" middle class will be able to afford a $6,000 iPhone

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    where you see problem others see reality - which is because of this you are able to live with comfort level that was inacessible to any of your ancestors - unless they were filthy rich .

    imagine time travel of 100 years - and telling your average 30 year old person that you are able to take credit for home, car and 216378127 other things with working 40 hours a week . that your closet is so full of clothes that you toss them away etc etc .

    while he most likely was just renting tiny room , had 1 shirt 1 trousers , patched shoes and barely was able to afford food while working 60 hours a week .

    people dont even know how good they have it nowadays

    they always go back to bs US stereotypes of 1 white man being able to aford house and food for his kids and wife from his salary - while not speaking about unimaginable numbers of immigrants/afroamerican who lived in extreme powerty and were exploited by state/company in which he worked

    you shuld have asked average afro-american how glorius 50s were - im sure they would be prasing those times
    Do you mean the reality where "facts don't care about your feelings libtards" but when confronted with facts you tried desperately to make an appeal to feelings?

    Or the reality where (as I pointed out above) labour availability and automtation have been outstripping job growth for decades and we're finally reaching a point where the post-WWII sugar high (as shown in the graph) can't cover those two nasty problems up anymore.

    Or the reality where despite capitalism being inherently exploitative once neoliberalism gained a foothold in the mid 70's the unrestrained celebration of corporate greed to the exclusion of everything else has harmed our own markets. Interest rates are basically non-existent (which has never happened before, ever), inflation rates that can touch the moon, economic shocks happening with increasing frequency being effectively covered up by corporate welfare (but isn't welfare bad), multidecade long wage stagnation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Can't wait for Janet Yellen to push hard for gutting those programs because of the Debt and for all Liberals on this forum to rationalize that its a good thing.
    Imagine coming into a thread about the working poor needing food stamps to live, knowing you have no real defence and trying to shift the focus onto 'owning the libs'.

    Not to mention, on a meta-level, the insinuation that 'liberal' people are brainwashed cultists is hilarious when the only conservative presence in this thread is two pragerU graduates unironically copying and pasting arguments out of the neoliberal handbook while LARPing is business moguls.
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