Page 14 of 17 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
... LastLast
  1. #261
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    65,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Did I say at the same rate? No.
    You sure as hell implied that, when you argued that minimum wage workers wouldn't have increased buying power after a minimum wage increase.

    The only way that's possible is if prices rise at the same rate. If they rise at a lower rate, you have increased buying power.

    When you're trying to use a source to talk about minimum wage, when 40%+ of the people can't possibly be at that number, it's a garbage source.
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue, here. Be specific; what, exactly, about U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data is "biased" or "garbage"?

    The graph proves in relation to the federal minimum wage, not the actual minimum wage.
    And?

    If you think you've got a better data source, by all means, provide it. I'll note that your Canadian data contradicted your own point, so make sure you actually check your sources.

    If you trendline the graph, is is not an overall downward slope.
    It's clear you've never done statistical analysis before, because it's an obvious downward trend line. You're denying visible reality, at this point.

    And last I checked, 9.2% is still a lot higher than the sub 6% it was in 1998. If provinces keep trying to bring their minimum wage to a livable wage, and keep it there, the % will not keep dropping. Considering it hasn't been a livable wage for decades, it should be expected that the % would go up.
    And again, you're denying reality. It already dropped 1.2% to hit 9.2%. And now you're arguing that it's going to magically start going up again, despite all historical evidence regarding the minimum wage and how economies respond arguing against that conclusion.

    You're making up fantastical counterfactual nonsense, and you have no evidence to back your assertions. The only source you have cited contradicted your claims.

  2. #262
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    23,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    So rather than actually commit to any of your own views, you criticize my devotion to my own? Real great discussion to be had there.

    I've advocated for paying up to 90% income taxes (and that's for me personally, not 90% top marginal rates) since I was 15 years old bagging groceries for minimum wage, if those taxes would provide robust social services such that people can get the hell they need when they need it.

    You really are something else.
    I've commented on my views in other threads, you simply whinge that I'm not a fan of your chosen political party. Lets go with something simple, an NHS. As of yet, no political party is for it.

    You seem to solely run defense for your chosen consumer product. The Apple Fanboy of political parties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Liberalism is the Pandemic. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  3. #263
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Seagrove Beach, FL
    Posts
    6,337
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I've commented on my views in other threads, you simply whinge that I'm not a fan of your chosen political party. Lets go with something simple, an NHS. As of yet, no political party is for it.

    You seem to solely run defense for your chosen consumer product. The Apple Fanboy of political parties.
    Imagine needing to create monsters to fight against.

    But after Theo carried water for the Trump handling of the pandemic, it's pure projection.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Got any opinions of your own?
    Depends on the most recent YouTube video she watched.

    People really need to learn that the only real reply to Theo is "piss off" and then move on. There is nothing of value to be had. Unless you get off on reading buzzwords and fatuous copy/pasted articles, I guess.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I've commented on my views in other threads, you simply whinge that I'm not a fan of your chosen political party. Lets go with something simple, an NHS. As of yet, no political party is for it.

    You seem to solely run defense for your chosen consumer product. The Apple Fanboy of political parties.
    I'm whinging that you don't seem to be a fan of any political party, policy aspiration, individual, or anything really. Every post you make on here seems done for the sole purpose of shitting on someone else's ideas, while you never actually espouse any of your own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I do care what people on this forum think of me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This site is amazing. It's comments like this, that make this site amazing.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You sure as hell implied that, when you argued that minimum wage workers wouldn't have increased buying power after a minimum wage increase.

    The only way that's possible is if prices rise at the same rate. If they rise at a lower rate, you have increased buying power.



    I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue, here. Be specific; what, exactly, about U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data is "biased" or "garbage"?



    And?

    If you think you've got a better data source, by all means, provide it. I'll note that your Canadian data contradicted your own point, so make sure you actually check your sources.



    It's clear you've never done statistical analysis before, because it's an obvious downward trend line. You're denying visible reality, at this point.



    And again, you're denying reality. It already dropped 1.2% to hit 9.2%. And now you're arguing that it's going to magically start going up again, despite all historical evidence regarding the minimum wage and how economies respond arguing against that conclusion.

    You're making up fantastical counterfactual nonsense, and you have no evidence to back your assertions. The only source you have cited contradicted your claims.
    It really just seems you are trying desperately to ignore housing inflation the most effected area each time such a increase happens. What buying power they gained will quickly be consumed by landlords while leaving those who managed to irk out a bit above minimum wage in a worse position as it is unlikely their wages will raise by the same amount.

    Simply throwing money at the problem won't fix it and that is ignoring how common it is for companies to skirt the minimum wage as is.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It really just seems you are trying desperately to ignore housing inflation the most effected area each time such a increase happens. What buying power they gained will quickly be consumed by landlords while leaving those who managed to irk out a bit above minimum wage in a worse position as it is unlikely their wages will raise by the same amount.
    So we should never raise wages, because it'll just disappear into landlords and whatnots pockets anyway? Just flatline wages till the end of times.
    Formerly Howeller, lost my account.

  8. #268
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    26,935
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It really just seems you are trying desperately to ignore housing inflation the most effected area each time such a increase happens. What buying power they gained will quickly be consumed by landlords while leaving those who managed to irk out a bit above minimum wage in a worse position as it is unlikely their wages will raise by the same amount.

    Simply throwing money at the problem won't fix it and that is ignoring how common it is for companies to skirt the minimum wage as is.
    That is why rent controll exists.

  9. #269
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    56,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Don't try and rope me into your BS.
    I made a mistake of putting value in your opinion... will never happen again.

    I have spoken with them in messages and we don't agree with each other, but we also never had to be reduced to a sophomoric arguments.
    No, you will never disagree in public. It’s been pointed out before.

    As is done here all the time, by many people, including moderators. Just state your opinion and disagree without saying things like " Blah blah talking point", characterization statements, jumping in the middle of an argument and commenting without knowing everything, and more.
    In this case, as someone I’ve had numerous discussions on the subject I thought my post would do two things:

    1. Get a perspective that I know contradicts the point being made. Showing that I... thought... I understand your perspective and see value in it.
    2. Because I... thought... you have not posted in a while and I value your perspective, so this was my way of giving you a soup box.

    Yet, this is how you respond... this is why Theo is poison in this community. No dude... do what the rest of Theo ... do... just put me on ignore. I’m too genuine for you people... You will never be able to handle it.

    Honestly, the continual Trumpism threat tells me everything I need to know. More of the same as with Obama and no one will be critical when it counts, if at all. If the Democrats perform in 2022 like they did in 2000. They are going to lose the House as well.
    See... I thought you counted because of your criticism. I thought your opinion had value... I guess your projecting here is right and I was wrong. Stay muzzled...

    Edit: This is what people expect from bias. You put your hand out... they bite it off... this is what is poisoning politics.

    Edit 2: This is the irony of getting what you wanted, but it was not what you needed. I got you to respond, which is what I wanted, but as an attack on the forum in general, not be an example of the left being critical of democrats. Something that I had no interest in...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Simply throwing money at the problem won't fix it and that is ignoring how common it is for companies to skirt the minimum wage as is.
    Than why did Trump’s largest tax cut in history for corporations, help the economy? Why do subsidies to farm, earn us victory in the trade war with China? I don’t understand how a billionaire can send out hundreds of emails and texts asking people for money, but it won’t work for everyone else. Why does the term ‘you have to have money, to make money’ not apply to the working class? Are we somehow different than rich people?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    That is why rent controll exists.
    Where does and in what form does rent control exist? Are you talking about NY and California, or the whole country?
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-11-27 at 02:20 PM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    My body is a wonderland.

  10. #270
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    65,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It really just seems you are trying desperately to ignore housing inflation the most effected area each time such a increase happens. What buying power they gained will quickly be consumed by landlords while leaving those who managed to irk out a bit above minimum wage in a worse position as it is unlikely their wages will raise by the same amount.

    Simply throwing money at the problem won't fix it and that is ignoring how common it is for companies to skirt the minimum wage as is.
    Housing inflation occurs regardless of whether there's a minimum wage increase or not.

    In fact; https://www.governing.com/topics/mgm...s-housing.html

    "there’s no data showing minimum-wage levels have any effect on housing. "

    Hell, you even admit that it won't be caused by inflation due to the minimum wage increase; you admit any such increase would be due to an entirely unrelated third factor; the greed of landlords.

    Your position is based on fantasy and imagination, not reality.
    Your own arguments contradict your conclusions.
    It's nonsense.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'm a citizen of the Russian Federation? That would be pretty poggers if true.
    I coulda sworn I remember reading that on here a couple months ago...

    Oh well, I'm going to decide to believe it anyway since that's how these things work these days, right? Unless you got undeniable proof to show me otherwise But to be fair I'll just believe what I want anyway hehe

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    So we should never raise wages, because it'll just disappear into landlords and whatnots pockets anyway? Just flatline wages till the end of times.
    Wages should raise or fall based on the demand for the labor.

    While I agree that social aid should be given it should be in the form of government housing and necessities like food.

    Money should never be a part of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    That is why rent controll exists.
    A workable solution if it is extremely regulated and all encompassing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Housing inflation occurs regardless of whether there's a minimum wage increase or not.

    In fact; https://www.governing.com/topics/mgm...s-housing.html

    "there’s no data showing minimum-wage levels have any effect on housing. "

    Hell, you even admit that it won't be caused by inflation due to the minimum wage increase; you admit any such increase would be due to an entirely unrelated third factor; the greed of landlords.

    Your position is based on fantasy and imagination, not reality.
    Your own arguments contradict your conclusions.
    It's nonsense.
    The idea that people who own assets they invested in wont leverage those assets to their fullest value when they suddenly have a new influx of demand isn't really based on fantasy.

  13. #273
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    56,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    The idea that people who own assets they invested in wont leverage those assets to their fullest value when they suddenly have a new influx of demand isn't really based on fantasy.
    The idea that those assets will be leveraged to pay people more to do the same job they have been doing, is unrealistic. Your salary doesn’t increase with demand for your existing job. Your suggestion is one that doesn’t understand job security.

    What happens to coal miners, when demand shifts to silicone valley? We bail out coal mine owners and demonize silicone valley?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    My body is a wonderland.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    The idea that those assets will be leveraged to pay people more to do the same job they have been doing, is unrealistic. Your salary doesn’t increase with demand for your existing job. Your suggestion is one that doesn’t understand job security.

    What happens to coal miners, when demand shifts to silicone valley? We bail out coal mine owners and demonize silicone valley?
    I feel like there is a misunderstanding here. I am saying that property owners who rent or sell will demand a higher premium when the demand grows rapidly from people earning more income.

    It doesn't really fit with the examples your giving as it addresses the value if a necessity.

  15. #275
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    65,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    The idea that people who own assets they invested in wont leverage those assets to their fullest value when they suddenly have a new influx of demand isn't really based on fantasy.
    And still, no observable evidence for any such pattern in the data.

    That's your issue. You make shit up, and pretend that your overactive imagination is reality, when there is absolutely no evidence that supports your conclusions.

  16. #276
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    56,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I feel like there is a misunderstanding here. I am saying that property owners who rent or sell will demand a higher premium when the demand grows rapidly from people earning more income.
    Why would housing demand grow with more income? If the job doesn’t require moving, there is no reason to move. In fact, shouldn’t it increase house buying, instead of moving to a more expensive rental?

    It doesn't really fit with the examples your giving as it addresses the value if a necessity.
    It’s the same... you need to justify moving from what you already have. If you have a lease, it doesn’t change with your increased pay. The same way your mortgage doesn’t increase with increased pay. Otherwise, you are simply arguing to set limits on rent increases for existing renters.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    My body is a wonderland.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Wages should raise or fall based on the demand for the labor.

    While I agree that social aid should be given it should be in the form of government housing and necessities like food.

    Money should never be a part of it.
    So two things in that regard. One is, you acknowledged that corporate is willing to skirt wage laws, but you don't think they'll work really hard to obfuscate the true value of labour to ensure they keep maximized profits? And that their position of power, which is ever expanding, ensures they can do this with fairly minimal effort.

    Second, how far are you actually willing to take that? Is 25 % of the population working, but that work is not deemed valuable enough to live off, bad? 50 %, 75 %? At what point does the notion that profitable businesses employing people at sub living wages, problematic enough that we have to address said issue?

    As for giving out food, instead of monetary ways... Dude, I know that it is because oh otherwise they'll spend it on drugs and whatnot; but the logistical and bureaucratic, and just the simple fact that not everyone has equally large fridges and some don't have freezers, makes that so monumentally more of a money sink and headache to manage, than I think you are prepared to make that change for.
    Last edited by Howel; 2020-11-27 at 03:47 PM.
    Formerly Howeller, lost my account.

  18. #278
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    65,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    Second, how far are you actually willing to take that? Is 25 % of the population working, but that work is not deemed valuable enough to live off, bad? 50 %, 75 %? At what point does the notion that profitable businesses employing people at sub living wages, problematic enough that we have to address said issue?
    You'll note that they also, without questioning it, only accept the devaluation of labor from the employer's perspective. They, for some reason, are entirely unwilling or unable to consider that workers have needs.

    If we want to talk about the base value of human labor, that evaluation must start with the support of that worker in a modestly comfortable lifestyle. A living wage. That's the bare minimum that should be acceptable. If you can't afford that, your business model is broken and not profitable, and your business should not exist. If it cannot survive without exploiting people by paying less than a living wage, it should be allowed to go bankrupt. The market will fill the void; the problem here is your abusive and exploitative business model, not the expectations that you pay your employees what they're worth.

    Any kind of skill or experience that increases the value of a worker should mean a step up from this baseline value point.

    The current situation is the equivalent of a factory needing to buy robots at $100,000/pop, and insisting they can't afford more than $30,000 each, and just assuming they can still get those robots and the government will pay the difference to the robot manufacturer to keep the economy going. That shit shouldn't fly. It's ridiculous, exploitative nonsense.

    Paying people what they're actually worth shouldn't be an expectation that sees pushback.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You sure as hell implied that, when you argued that minimum wage workers wouldn't have increased buying power after a minimum wage increase.

    The only way that's possible is if prices rise at the same rate. If they rise at a lower rate, you have increased buying power.
    This, right here, is why I often don't bother responding to your posts because you either can't read, can't understand, or deliberately misrepresent what people type.

    The bold part is a massive pile of bullshit. What I literally said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Now, I don't think this is overall a bad thing. The small amount of buying power I lost was small, and greatly offset by the benefit gained by those who were at the minimum. But I think bringing in a UBI is both easier, more effective, and more beneficial for workers than trying to decide what a minimum wage should be. People also seem to not realize that the raising of minimum wages benefits large companies more than smaller ones.
    Notice the part in bold. I literally said that those at the minimum would get a boost.

    Almost every response from you has been a strawman, misrepresenting what I said, or in this case, a flat out lie. Back to the ignore list for you.

  20. #280
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    65,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    This, right here, is why I often don't bother responding to your posts because you either can't read, can't understand, or deliberately misrepresent what people type.

    The bold part is a massive pile of bullshit. What I literally said was:

    Notice the part in bold. I literally said that those at the minimum would get a boost.
    Read the sentence of yours before the bit you put in bold.

    Where you argue that you lost buying power as a result of being paid more.

    It's right there in black and white, and you just quoted it back at me, in your defense of not having said that.

    Feel free to put me on ignore because I pointed out what you literally said in your own words, but it's not gonna make me look bad.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •