1. #3101
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because the content is on the ground, and as it stands flying over combat, obstacles and even enviromental puzzles is a no-brainer unless you are going out of your way to make the game harder on yourself.
    Imagine for instance if you had the ability ot turn on godmode, where enemies couldnt hurt you, and you instakilled any enemy you met in outdoor content, even elites, rares and world bosses. THen imagine that this mode had no downsides and was in fact just given to you at some point. Then imagine that players threatened to quit the game if they couldnt be allowed to go around in current content idly ignoring what should be essential parts of the game.

    Besides, flying is also not fun as a mechanic. There is no inherent gameplay to it that players can really learn and exploit for a deeper gameplay experience. At best you have things like flying between things.
    I had this discussion with someone on a different thread. That flying in WoW is easier and has less inherent downsides than even games like Just Cause. And the entire point of that game is giving players as many tools of destruction as possible. And even that game recognized that you need some mechanics to flight to make utlizing it more fun.

    And of course these two issues are linked. You can't really design the game world around flying because all flying is in WoW is the ability ot ignore gravity when not in combat. If it required some level of skill, or could not be used with great accuracy then you could have gameplay around it, instead of now when flying is the point where gameplay simply stops.
    No thanks. I rather take the current flying than some boring gliding "that requires skill". Besides that, it's already far too late for that - it would have worked with TBC release, not with 10.0 ...

  2. #3102
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    No thanks. I rather take the current flying than some boring gliding "that requires skill". Besides that, it's already far too late for that - it would have worked with TBC release, not with 10.0 ...
    It's never too late to fix your mistakes. That is why we now have world quests that make use of more of a zone and rares and puzzles that give actual fun rewards instead of the travesty of an overworld we had in WoD.

    Like many issues in the game this is one where Blizzard just needs to rip the bandaid off. Stop with the half-measures and actually commit to making the unpopular choice for the betterment of the game as a whole.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #3103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because the content is on the ground, and as it stands flying over combat, obstacles and even enviromental puzzles is a no-brainer unless you are going out of your way to make the game harder on yourself.
    All the more reason not to invest huge amounts of resources into a mode of movement the game isn't focusing on. Your argument works better for removing it entirely than reworking it.

  4. #3104
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    All the more reason not to invest huge amounts of resources into a mode of movement the game isn't focusing on. Your argument works better for removing it entirely than reworking it.
    The only reason I am more for heavily reworking it is because having so many flying mounts be made obsolete in a way would be a shame.

    Besides, content designed around flying could work and is an intriguing concept for future zones, it just wouldnt work with the current version of flying at all.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  5. #3105
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's never too late to fix your mistakes. That is why we now have world quests that make use of more of a zone and rares and puzzles that give actual fun rewards instead of the travesty of an overworld we had in WoD.

    Like many issues in the game this is one where Blizzard just needs to rip the bandaid off. Stop with the half-measures and actually commit to making the unpopular choice for the betterment of the game as a whole.
    But it wouldn't be better for the game, it would make it way worse. If I want to play jump and run and glide games, I can play something else, thanks.

  6. #3106
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because the content is on the ground, and as it stands flying over combat, obstacles and even enviromental puzzles is a no-brainer unless you are going out of your way to make the game harder on yourself.
    Imagine for instance if you had the ability ot turn on godmode, where enemies couldnt hurt you, and you instakilled any enemy you met in outdoor content, even elites, rares and world bosses. THen imagine that this mode had no downsides and was in fact just given to you at some point. Then imagine that players threatened to quit the game if they couldnt be allowed to go around in current content idly ignoring what should be essential parts of the game.

    Besides, flying is also not fun as a mechanic. There is no inherent gameplay to it that players can really learn and exploit for a deeper gameplay experience. At best you have things like flying between things.
    I had this discussion with someone on a different thread. That flying in WoW is easier and has less inherent downsides than even games like Just Cause. And the entire point of that game is giving players as many tools of destruction as possible. And even that game recognized that you need some mechanics to flight to make utlizing it more fun.

    And of course these two issues are linked. You can't really design the game world around flying because all flying is in WoW is the ability ot ignore gravity when not in combat. If it required some level of skill, or could not be used with great accuracy then you could have gameplay around it, instead of now when flying is the point where gameplay simply stops.
    But this makes no sense at all because that's not the intention to begin with. You're essentially asking that they create an entirely new mechanic that has nothing to do with what WoW is, the gameplay that people enjoy, or anything to do with the general way the game is played. WoW has never been particularly movement-focused, it has a very specific way of being played, and has a set of certain mechanics that make it enjoyable. I see no way that an overhaul of flying could be even remotely entertaining.

  7. #3107
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But it wouldn't be better for the game, it would make it way worse. If I want to play jump and run and glide games, I can play something else, thanks.
    So if a mechanic in the game is actuvely detrimental to another part then that is just fine?

    I know that is is quite in fashion ot hate on outdoor content in WoW, but some players like it and want it to succeed, and in that regard letting players that don't care and want to skip it and treat the game like a lobby game doesnt really seem like the best idea.

    Overworld content has a perfectly solid base trifecta of walking, ground mount and flight paths for movement. And flying is one that takes the benefits of all three with no real downside.
    It's absurd, no other part of the game would let such blatant disregard for gameplay balancing fly. Which is what makes the fact that flying is so aggressively boring as a mechanic doubly baffling. If it at least took a minimum level of skill and not just aiming at your destination and hitting autorun that would be one thing, but it really isnt.
    Flying as it works on the game currently is essentially Blizzard capitulating and sacrificing the overworld they created to players that proudly admit to not caring for it, like proudly declaring your intent of pleasing everyone by throwing a lamborghini in a trash compactor to appease cyclists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    But this makes no sense at all because that's not the intention to begin with. You're essentially asking that they create an entirely new mechanic that has nothing to do with what WoW is, the gameplay that people enjoy, or anything to do with the general way the game is played. WoW has never been particularly movement-focused, it has a very specific way of being played, and has a set of certain mechanics that make it enjoyable. I see no way that an overhaul of flying could be even remotely entertaining.
    What gameplay? The ability to move unhindered from Point A to point B in a striahgt line. Or the gameplay that requires players to have some level of mechanics awareness and offers various means of traversing the landscape, because flying only appeases one.

    And WoW used to be intensely movement focused. Back in Vanilla the lack of a flying mount meant that the game asking you to travel somewhere required knowledge of game mechanics on at least a rudimentry level, enough so to know how to either run around or through trash packs, as well as how to move across zones.
    This is a style of gameplay that only really returned once Flying stopped being given to players at the very start of an expansion, and I know several that adore how this actually gave Blizzard space to design new and more fun movement options like Aviana's feather in WoD and Emerald Wings in Legion.

    There is no gameplay to flying. It simply gives the player the ability to skip all the small component bits that make a game world feel more alive.

    The only people that honestly want flying are those that either confess to not wanting to play the World of Warcraft, or want the game to be a lobby game for raids of PvP. I have yet to meet someone who wants overworld content and actually thinks flying improves or adds anything to it at all.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #3108
    Blademaster genegerbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Considering how much we need to wait for it it better fucking be.

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    Yeah their dumbness is tirng. That is why so many of us left. There is no participation award in capitalism. Don't want to be treated like a donkey? Do something better than the competition.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    9.2 is gonna be: Jailer Invasion of Reality, us visiting the Pantheon of Life and the Gardens of Life, us beating Helya with the Keepers + the Kyrian and Val'kyr, Mueh'zala perma-falling, some Arthas shit occurs, some Broker shit also happens, and Sylvanas learns the meaning of Life. Oh, and Denathrius' plot continues/ends, I guess.

    And the 9.2 raid could be mainly focused on the Sepulcher, there: We battle a Mawsworn Galakrond and beat him, Anduin gets converted back, Sylvanas either dies or some shit, and the Pantheons of Life and Death stop Zovaal.
    Whatever 9.2 is, I hope it wraps things up. I just want a cool, big continent with a bunch of open-world stuff to do. The intangible systems are really getting old. Like yeah, there's some fun stuff to (i.e. Ember Court ain't bad, and there's some innovative stuff, but nothing that another company hasn't done before.

    They really wanna shake things up and make people come back for good? Shake up the WoW formula a bit. I think the continuation of all these systems that have panels and all this crud you have to keep track of is really tiring people out.

  9. #3109
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So if a mechanic in the game is actuvely detrimental to another part then that is just fine?

    I know that is is quite in fashion ot hate on outdoor content in WoW, but some players like it and want it to succeed, and in that regard letting players that don't care and want to skip it and treat the game like a lobby game doesnt really seem like the best idea.

    Overworld content has a perfectly solid base trifecta of walking, ground mount and flight paths for movement. And flying is one that takes the benefits of all three with no real downside.
    It's absurd, no other part of the game would let such blatant disregard for gameplay balancing fly. Which is what makes the fact that flying is so aggressively boring as a mechanic doubly baffling. If it at least took a minimum level of skill and not just aiming at your destination and hitting autorun that would be one thing, but it really isnt.
    Flying as it works on the game currently is essentially Blizzard capitulating and sacrificing the overworld they created to players that proudly admit to not caring for it, like proudly declaring your intent of pleasing everyone by throwing a lamborghini in a trash compactor to appease cyclists.

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    What gameplay? The ability to move unhindered from Point A to point B in a striahgt line. Or the gameplay that requires players to have some level of mechanics awareness and offers various means of traversing the landscape, because flying only appeases one.

    And WoW used to be intensely movement focused. Back in Vanilla the lack of a flying mount meant that the game asking you to travel somewhere required knowledge of game mechanics on at least a rudimentry level, enough so to know how to either run around or through trash packs, as well as how to move across zones.
    This is a style of gameplay that only really returned once Flying stopped being given to players at the very start of an expansion, and I know several that adore how this actually gave Blizzard space to design new and more fun movement options like Aviana's feather in WoD and Emerald Wings in Legion.

    There is no gameplay to flying. It simply gives the player the ability to skip all the small component bits that make a game world feel more alive.

    The only people that honestly want flying are those that either confess to not wanting to play the World of Warcraft, or want the game to be a lobby game for raids of PvP. I have yet to meet someone who wants overworld content and actually thinks flying improves or adds anything to it at all.
    Well, I do like overworld content and I actually think flying improves and adds to the game. So your point is proven wrong.

  10. #3110
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The big question is why do you need to hover. Why can't you jsut land instead? At a stretch you could say it gives the player what is essentially a pause function in the game, but the game isnt really frnatic enough that one couldnt simply find a place with no hostile mobs and stay still on the gorund while you refill your glass of water or answer the door or whatever.

    The core issue with flying is that it doesnt give any gameplay, instead it removes it. Being restricted to the ground gives organic gameplay moments simply from trying to get past obstacles, whereas the flying we have now doesnt have anything like that.
    It is quite telling when the coolest trick the game can offer from flying is the the button that allows you to fly upside down. It doesnt do anything or require skill, it just looks kinda neat for those who are not aware it could be done.
    I think they need to design with flying in mind

    Think about if flying unlocked halfway through the leveling story and was needed for certain things in other zones

  11. #3111
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Well, I do like overworld content and I actually think flying improves and adds to the game. So your point is proven wrong.
    Put me down as someone who also wants more overworld content and greatly enjoys flying.

  12. #3112
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So if a mechanic in the game is actuvely detrimental to another part then that is just fine?
    No. But that's not a reason to waste resources on trying to make WoW a flight simulator. That's a reason to remove flying entirely or restrict it to when the detriment isn't important anymore.

  13. #3113
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    I think they need to design with flying in mind

    Think about if flying unlocked halfway through the leveling story and was needed for certain things in other zones
    I'm shocked they haven't given new zones the Storm Peaks treatment. Seriously. Levelling content on the ground, endgame/end of levelling content on the cliffs above. They could get real creative with floating islands, fortresses, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Well, I do like overworld content and I actually think flying improves and adds to the game. So your point is proven wrong.
    You just want flying so you can mindlessly press auto run to all your quests and objectives. I seriously can't imagine being lazy in a video game.

  14. #3114
    Calling cross faction play as being a major selling point of 10.0. Alliance raiding is on its knees & needs the help, plus I believe from a lore POV we're in a tentative peace right now after the whole tree thing. Bugger knows what 10.0 will be theme-wise, but maybe we'll all just band together that little bit more to justify cross-platform play from a lore POV as well.

  15. #3115
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Calling cross faction play as being a major selling point of 10.0. Alliance raiding is on its knees & needs the help, plus I believe from a lore POV we're in a tentative peace right now after the whole tree thing. Bugger knows what 10.0 will be theme-wise, but maybe we'll all just band together that little bit more to justify cross-platform play from a lore POV as well.
    Well all big main leaders are outside of the shadowlands so if they pull timey whimey stuff it could work

  16. #3116
    Herald of the Titans Baine's Avatar
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    I have stopped playing like 2 months ago but I am still subbed (tanks token). Any news of 9.1. release date? Did they tell any reason why there is such a delay between 9.0 and 9.1, which is unprecedented. Covid related?

  17. #3117
    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    I have stopped playing like 2 months ago but I am still subbed (tanks token). Any news of 9.1. release date? Did they tell any reason why there is such a delay between 9.0 and 9.1, which is unprecedented. Covid related?
    the delays caused by the work from home transition

    expect launch in 3 weeks

  18. #3118
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    And yet he immediately starts comparing the two games. Hell moving to FFXIV just makes Blizzard's missteps more obvious because there is something to compare.



    Is it not? MoP and Legion had their second major patch out now. And I think Cata and WoD aren't far off.
    Like how WoW compared with Rift, GW2, ESO, etc? No.

  19. #3119
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So if a mechanic in the game is actuvely detrimental to another part then that is just fine?

    I know that is is quite in fashion ot hate on outdoor content in WoW, but some players like it and want it to succeed, and in that regard letting players that don't care and want to skip it and treat the game like a lobby game doesnt really seem like the best idea.

    Overworld content has a perfectly solid base trifecta of walking, ground mount and flight paths for movement. And flying is one that takes the benefits of all three with no real downside.
    It's absurd, no other part of the game would let such blatant disregard for gameplay balancing fly. Which is what makes the fact that flying is so aggressively boring as a mechanic doubly baffling. If it at least took a minimum level of skill and not just aiming at your destination and hitting autorun that would be one thing, but it really isnt.
    Flying as it works on the game currently is essentially Blizzard capitulating and sacrificing the overworld they created to players that proudly admit to not caring for it, like proudly declaring your intent of pleasing everyone by throwing a lamborghini in a trash compactor to appease cyclists.

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    What gameplay? The ability to move unhindered from Point A to point B in a striahgt line. Or the gameplay that requires players to have some level of mechanics awareness and offers various means of traversing the landscape, because flying only appeases one.

    And WoW used to be intensely movement focused. Back in Vanilla the lack of a flying mount meant that the game asking you to travel somewhere required knowledge of game mechanics on at least a rudimentry level, enough so to know how to either run around or through trash packs, as well as how to move across zones.
    This is a style of gameplay that only really returned once Flying stopped being given to players at the very start of an expansion, and I know several that adore how this actually gave Blizzard space to design new and more fun movement options like Aviana's feather in WoD and Emerald Wings in Legion.

    There is no gameplay to flying. It simply gives the player the ability to skip all the small component bits that make a game world feel more alive.

    The only people that honestly want flying are those that either confess to not wanting to play the World of Warcraft, or want the game to be a lobby game for raids of PvP. I have yet to meet someone who wants overworld content and actually thinks flying improves or adds anything to it at all.
    It seems like a dramatically large demographic of the fanbase has flown over your head. Have you simply forgotten the debacle that came with the removal of flying in one expansion? And those mechanics were fun because they were limited to smaller scales, usually in zones which otherwise had minimal opportunity for flight.

    Furthermore, knowledge of the locations of things is in no way relevant to actual gameplay mechanics to movement. The "world" part comes in during leveling. There are different phases you go through during different expansions - levelling is where you're exploring the world on foot, traversing things and seeing what the world has to offer. There is little to offer in flight to justify unnecessary mechanics. All that would do is make flying more irritating while doing nothing to accentuate the actual design of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Like how WoW compared with Rift, GW2, ESO, etc? No.
    ESO is actually still alive. Although it's not a WoW-killer, it actually does seem like the long-prophesied time when other MMOs start to match up is finally happening. I'm not sure if this is a relative renaissance of MMOs or if there is simply a more even distribution now, but both ESO and FFXIV are starting to get there, not to mention that they have a degree of seniority now that shows they're actually replenishable and sustainable.

  20. #3120
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    It seems like a dramatically large demographic of the fanbase has flown over your head. Have you simply forgotten the debacle that came with the removal of flying in one expansion? And those mechanics were fun because they were limited to smaller scales, usually in zones which otherwise had minimal opportunity for flight.

    Furthermore, knowledge of the locations of things is in no way relevant to actual gameplay mechanics to movement. The "world" part comes in during leveling. There are different phases you go through during different expansions - levelling is where you're exploring the world on foot, traversing things and seeing what the world has to offer. There is little to offer in flight to justify unnecessary mechanics. All that would do is make flying more irritating while doing nothing to accentuate the actual design of the world.

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    ESO is actually still alive. Although it's not a WoW-killer, it actually does seem like the long-prophesied time when other MMOs start to match up is finally happening. I'm not sure if this is a relative renaissance of MMOs or if there is simply a more even distribution now, but both ESO and FFXIV are starting to get there, not to mention that they have a degree of seniority now that shows they're actually replenishable and sustainable.
    Yet the world is a part of the endgame. You complete quests, world quests and dailies there. More importantly though you now also gather treasures that are usually placed in areas not easily accessible from the ground.

    Flying doesn't open up a new and interesting avenue to tackle these small challenges, it removes them. And the only reason I can see is because some players don't want to play that part of the game.


    When I say knowledge of the world I mean small things. Knowing what mobs are safe to run straight past and which are more likely to daze you. How absorb shields prevent dazing, how paths are designed to be safe to run on and knowledge on how to navigate past obstacles, where vantage points are, the best places to use a glider, areas that might be simple shortcuts.

    All these small moments of organic gameplay are made moot when flying is added because it takes all these small things and instead gives you the ability to skip all of it at no cost or inconvenience.

    The example I always use is one where you have a quest or somesuch that requires you to kill a mob at the top of a tower. There are mobs around and inside the tower however, meaning you then have a choice.
    You could go straight in from the bottom fighting all the mobs.
    Maybe you have stealth so instead you just stealth past all the mobs.
    Maybe you see a vantage point close by and realize you could use a glider to get there, or better yet you play a DH so you can use glide for free.
    Maybe you have engineering items that let you drop threat, or play a nelf or even just a hunter with feign death.
    Maybe you have an item like Avianas feather or Twigi Treats so you can bypass the challenges that way.

    However with flying the simple solution is the same no matter what. Mount up and fly straight up. No decision making, no resource loss, no need for knowledge of game mechanics. Just use the ultimate solution to the problem because why wouldn't you.


    Changing flying could at the very least make it an option not immediately useful just anywhere, allowing it to shine as a long distance movement option instead of the ability to bypass gameplay just because.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm shocked they haven't given new zones the Storm Peaks treatment. Seriously. Levelling content on the ground, endgame/end of levelling content on the cliffs above. They could get real creative with floating islands, fortresses, etc.

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    You just want flying so you can mindlessly press auto run to all your quests and objectives. I seriously can't imagine being lazy in a video game.
    They have not made a new Storm Peaks because all it ends up doing is force you to either make content solely on small platforms to mitigate the detrimental effects of flying on moment to moment combat, or place content in caves or other non flying zones to allow useage of stealth and other spec abilities meant to be useful in content.


    Since you claim to like overworld content, then do you really not see how flying lessens that aspect of the game by changing a myriad tiny gameplay moments into "mount up, fly over".
    Mountain in the way? Fly over.
    Actual bridge a bit too far away? Fly over.
    Elites in the way? Fly over.
    Chest on a ledge? Mount up and fly straight to it.

    Is that really your preferred form of overworld content instead of giving players choice and designing the world to make use of those choices and options?
    Those that chose the Venthyr covenant got a short range teleport that is now almost completely pointless in the overworld simply because flying beats it at every challenge not directly designed for that teleport like the forcefields.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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