1. #3121
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So if a mechanic in the game is actuvely detrimental to another part then that is just fine?

    I know that is is quite in fashion ot hate on outdoor content in WoW, but some players like it and want it to succeed, and in that regard letting players that don't care and want to skip it and treat the game like a lobby game doesnt really seem like the best idea.

    Overworld content has a perfectly solid base trifecta of walking, ground mount and flight paths for movement. And flying is one that takes the benefits of all three with no real downside.
    It's absurd, no other part of the game would let such blatant disregard for gameplay balancing fly. Which is what makes the fact that flying is so aggressively boring as a mechanic doubly baffling. If it at least took a minimum level of skill and not just aiming at your destination and hitting autorun that would be one thing, but it really isnt.
    Flying as it works on the game currently is essentially Blizzard capitulating and sacrificing the overworld they created to players that proudly admit to not caring for it, like proudly declaring your intent of pleasing everyone by throwing a lamborghini in a trash compactor to appease cyclists.

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    What gameplay? The ability to move unhindered from Point A to point B in a striahgt line. Or the gameplay that requires players to have some level of mechanics awareness and offers various means of traversing the landscape, because flying only appeases one.

    And WoW used to be intensely movement focused. Back in Vanilla the lack of a flying mount meant that the game asking you to travel somewhere required knowledge of game mechanics on at least a rudimentry level, enough so to know how to either run around or through trash packs, as well as how to move across zones.
    This is a style of gameplay that only really returned once Flying stopped being given to players at the very start of an expansion, and I know several that adore how this actually gave Blizzard space to design new and more fun movement options like Aviana's feather in WoD and Emerald Wings in Legion.

    There is no gameplay to flying. It simply gives the player the ability to skip all the small component bits that make a game world feel more alive.

    The only people that honestly want flying are those that either confess to not wanting to play the World of Warcraft, or want the game to be a lobby game for raids of PvP. I have yet to meet someone who wants overworld content and actually thinks flying improves or adds anything to it at all.
    It seems like a dramatically large demographic of the fanbase has flown over your head. Have you simply forgotten the debacle that came with the removal of flying in one expansion? And those mechanics were fun because they were limited to smaller scales, usually in zones which otherwise had minimal opportunity for flight.

    Furthermore, knowledge of the locations of things is in no way relevant to actual gameplay mechanics to movement. The "world" part comes in during leveling. There are different phases you go through during different expansions - levelling is where you're exploring the world on foot, traversing things and seeing what the world has to offer. There is little to offer in flight to justify unnecessary mechanics. All that would do is make flying more irritating while doing nothing to accentuate the actual design of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Like how WoW compared with Rift, GW2, ESO, etc? No.
    ESO is actually still alive. Although it's not a WoW-killer, it actually does seem like the long-prophesied time when other MMOs start to match up is finally happening. I'm not sure if this is a relative renaissance of MMOs or if there is simply a more even distribution now, but both ESO and FFXIV are starting to get there, not to mention that they have a degree of seniority now that shows they're actually replenishable and sustainable.

  2. #3122
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    It seems like a dramatically large demographic of the fanbase has flown over your head. Have you simply forgotten the debacle that came with the removal of flying in one expansion? And those mechanics were fun because they were limited to smaller scales, usually in zones which otherwise had minimal opportunity for flight.

    Furthermore, knowledge of the locations of things is in no way relevant to actual gameplay mechanics to movement. The "world" part comes in during leveling. There are different phases you go through during different expansions - levelling is where you're exploring the world on foot, traversing things and seeing what the world has to offer. There is little to offer in flight to justify unnecessary mechanics. All that would do is make flying more irritating while doing nothing to accentuate the actual design of the world.

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    ESO is actually still alive. Although it's not a WoW-killer, it actually does seem like the long-prophesied time when other MMOs start to match up is finally happening. I'm not sure if this is a relative renaissance of MMOs or if there is simply a more even distribution now, but both ESO and FFXIV are starting to get there, not to mention that they have a degree of seniority now that shows they're actually replenishable and sustainable.
    Yet the world is a part of the endgame. You complete quests, world quests and dailies there. More importantly though you now also gather treasures that are usually placed in areas not easily accessible from the ground.

    Flying doesn't open up a new and interesting avenue to tackle these small challenges, it removes them. And the only reason I can see is because some players don't want to play that part of the game.


    When I say knowledge of the world I mean small things. Knowing what mobs are safe to run straight past and which are more likely to daze you. How absorb shields prevent dazing, how paths are designed to be safe to run on and knowledge on how to navigate past obstacles, where vantage points are, the best places to use a glider, areas that might be simple shortcuts.

    All these small moments of organic gameplay are made moot when flying is added because it takes all these small things and instead gives you the ability to skip all of it at no cost or inconvenience.

    The example I always use is one where you have a quest or somesuch that requires you to kill a mob at the top of a tower. There are mobs around and inside the tower however, meaning you then have a choice.
    You could go straight in from the bottom fighting all the mobs.
    Maybe you have stealth so instead you just stealth past all the mobs.
    Maybe you see a vantage point close by and realize you could use a glider to get there, or better yet you play a DH so you can use glide for free.
    Maybe you have engineering items that let you drop threat, or play a nelf or even just a hunter with feign death.
    Maybe you have an item like Avianas feather or Twigi Treats so you can bypass the challenges that way.

    However with flying the simple solution is the same no matter what. Mount up and fly straight up. No decision making, no resource loss, no need for knowledge of game mechanics. Just use the ultimate solution to the problem because why wouldn't you.


    Changing flying could at the very least make it an option not immediately useful just anywhere, allowing it to shine as a long distance movement option instead of the ability to bypass gameplay just because.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm shocked they haven't given new zones the Storm Peaks treatment. Seriously. Levelling content on the ground, endgame/end of levelling content on the cliffs above. They could get real creative with floating islands, fortresses, etc.

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    You just want flying so you can mindlessly press auto run to all your quests and objectives. I seriously can't imagine being lazy in a video game.
    They have not made a new Storm Peaks because all it ends up doing is force you to either make content solely on small platforms to mitigate the detrimental effects of flying on moment to moment combat, or place content in caves or other non flying zones to allow useage of stealth and other spec abilities meant to be useful in content.


    Since you claim to like overworld content, then do you really not see how flying lessens that aspect of the game by changing a myriad tiny gameplay moments into "mount up, fly over".
    Mountain in the way? Fly over.
    Actual bridge a bit too far away? Fly over.
    Elites in the way? Fly over.
    Chest on a ledge? Mount up and fly straight to it.

    Is that really your preferred form of overworld content instead of giving players choice and designing the world to make use of those choices and options?
    Those that chose the Venthyr covenant got a short range teleport that is now almost completely pointless in the overworld simply because flying beats it at every challenge not directly designed for that teleport like the forcefields.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #3123
    Bloodsail Admiral Pheraz's Avatar
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    Ehhh flying is great ofc but this alone won't turn SL into a good expansion for me. Maybe it's unfair and I should only make an opinion when the X-Pac is done, but there's just not much to do and the zones look boring and disconnected. Flying won't change this. I actually enjoy the maw the most aesthetically because it's the only zone that makes sense for what Shadowlands could be in my head. A dark place. Why are there bones and flesh in a not-mortal realm in maldraxxus? And why can't you tell who of those guys is good and who is bad? Sometimes the bone dudes are bad then the plague dudes are bad. This whole zone makes no sense outside of "let's have fun with some alternative scourge aesthetics". Curious what will happen on this new island. Let's hope it's fun
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 I miss Bfa

  4. #3124
    So we have pvp Friday and the flying post...I’m more convinced about the season end next weeK lol

    Also I’ve been paying more attention to brokers “you can’t bargain with death”
    1. You literally can
    2. They tried the jailer didn’t they...

  5. #3125
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Like how WoW compared with Rift, GW2, ESO, etc? No.
    I dread to ask how many MMOs you actually played for more than five minutes.

  6. #3126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I dread to ask how many MMOs you actually played for more than five minutes.
    I literally played all those games and I like em. Not so much Rift, but the others are fine. My point was that they've been compared to WoW a ton in the past, and yet WoW has not affected by any of these MMO's whatsoever.

    Which btw, I bought the FFXIV complete edition. So...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    So we have pvp Friday and the flying post...I’m more convinced about the season end next weeK lol

    Also I’ve been paying more attention to brokers “you can’t bargain with death”
    1. You literally can
    2. They tried the jailer didn’t they...
    Yeah, try the 5Head Antagonist that caused the Cosmic War to begin with so he could claim the First Ones' Sepulcher that is the key to ending/conquering all existence. That'll go well. Really!

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    Oh wait, NO IT FUCKIN WON'T!

  7. #3127
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I literally played all those games and I like em. Not so much Rift, but the others are fine. My point was that they've been compared to WoW a ton in the past, and yet WoW has not affected by any of these MMO's whatsoever.

    Which btw, I bought the FFXIV complete edition. So...
    Ahh okay. Not sure I agree with your assesment but if you are playing all of them that's cool.


    bought or played?

  8. #3128
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Ahh okay. Not sure I agree with your assesment but if you are playing all of them that's cool.


    bought or played?
    Oh, I've been playing it. I played the free trial a bit ago, and I've been slowly bringing myself to playing more FFXIV. I essentially have 3 main games to play MMO-wise atm before AoC releases. Retail, Classic, and FFXIV. They're fun. If I'm bored with WoW, I'll play FF, etc.

    And I've been playing FFXIV more than WoW recently anyway. I'm just waiting for 9.1 tbh.

  9. #3129
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Oh, I've been playing it. I played the free trial a bit ago, and I've been slowly bringing myself to playing more FFXIV. I essentially have 3 main games to play MMO-wise atm before AoC releases. Retail, Classic, and FFXIV. They're fun. If I'm bored with WoW, I'll play FF, etc.

    And I've been playing FFXIV more than WoW recently anyway. I'm just waiting for 9.1 tbh.
    Ahh good to know. Thanks for the details. Like I said I doubt those games didn't affect each other. After RIFT we have every game popping out similar dynamic zone events. GW2 made it their main form of questing. And even WoW has World Quests. Torghast is clearly based on Deep Dungeons from FFXIV. Some are more obvious than others but I think all these games affect each other in some way.

  10. #3130
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Yet the world is a part of the endgame. You complete quests, world quests and dailies there. More importantly though you now also gather treasures that are usually placed in areas not easily accessible from the ground.

    Flying doesn't open up a new and interesting avenue to tackle these small challenges, it removes them. And the only reason I can see is because some players don't want to play that part of the game.


    When I say knowledge of the world I mean small things. Knowing what mobs are safe to run straight past and which are more likely to daze you. How absorb shields prevent dazing, how paths are designed to be safe to run on and knowledge on how to navigate past obstacles, where vantage points are, the best places to use a glider, areas that might be simple shortcuts.

    All these small moments of organic gameplay are made moot when flying is added because it takes all these small things and instead gives you the ability to skip all of it at no cost or inconvenience.

    The example I always use is one where you have a quest or somesuch that requires you to kill a mob at the top of a tower. There are mobs around and inside the tower however, meaning you then have a choice.
    You could go straight in from the bottom fighting all the mobs.
    Maybe you have stealth so instead you just stealth past all the mobs.
    Maybe you see a vantage point close by and realize you could use a glider to get there, or better yet you play a DH so you can use glide for free.
    Maybe you have engineering items that let you drop threat, or play a nelf or even just a hunter with feign death.
    Maybe you have an item like Avianas feather or Twigi Treats so you can bypass the challenges that way.

    However with flying the simple solution is the same no matter what. Mount up and fly straight up. No decision making, no resource loss, no need for knowledge of game mechanics. Just use the ultimate solution to the problem because why wouldn't you.


    Changing flying could at the very least make it an option not immediately useful just anywhere, allowing it to shine as a long distance movement option instead of the ability to bypass gameplay just because.
    But none of this relates to the gameplay which people have interest in, as these destinations are what the players are after in the first place. Just because some endgame content takes place in the world at large doesn't mean they need to suffer the same inconveniences as they initially did. The first time you go through a zone, there's a sense of awe and wonder at seeing a place you have never seen before. The twentieth time you go through it for the sake of a world quest, you're going to want to do the world quest and enjoy the reward and the process (at least in theory) rather than focus on the landscape you've seen twenty times before. Going through it just becomes an inconvenience rather than anything interesting.

    Furthermore, you're continuing to fail to understand that any new mechanics in flight would likely constitute inconvenience in general rather than any new, interesting mechanics. What would you propose for new flight mechanics to make them interesting? Gliding around? Having to manually ensure your mount stays in the air? Unless you're proposing an entirely new set of content in the sky (which would further get tiresome and somewhat defeat the point of flying, even if I could see it being fairly interesting in theory), I don't really know exactly how flying could be made interesting through new mechanics.

    Theoretically, I could see there being some interest in, say, dodging anti-air weaponry, but even then that would get tiresome when the only interest you have is getting to the Mythic+ raid on time.

  11. #3131
    I wish Blizzard would also add the 9.0 Maw weapons to Torghast or Korthia. I really want that 2h sword more than I want the raid sword.

  12. #3132
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I wish Blizzard would also add the 9.0 Maw weapons to Torghast or Korthia. I really want that 2h sword more than I want the raid sword.
    Yeah would be pretty good motivation to spend some more time there...
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  13. #3133
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    But none of this relates to the gameplay which people have interest in, as these destinations are what the players are after in the first place. Just because some endgame content takes place in the world at large doesn't mean they need to suffer the same inconveniences as they initially did. The first time you go through a zone, there's a sense of awe and wonder at seeing a place you have never seen before. The twentieth time you go through it for the sake of a world quest, you're going to want to do the world quest and enjoy the reward and the process (at least in theory) rather than focus on the landscape you've seen twenty times before. Going through it just becomes an inconvenience rather than anything interesting.

    Furthermore, you're continuing to fail to understand that any new mechanics in flight would likely constitute inconvenience in general rather than any new, interesting mechanics. What would you propose for new flight mechanics to make them interesting? Gliding around? Having to manually ensure your mount stays in the air? Unless you're proposing an entirely new set of content in the sky (which would further get tiresome and somewhat defeat the point of flying, even if I could see it being fairly interesting in theory), I don't really know exactly how flying could be made interesting through new mechanics.

    Theoretically, I could see there being some interest in, say, dodging anti-air weaponry, but even then that would get tiresome when the only interest you have is getting to the Mythic+ raid on time.
    The thing is that this is a game though, playing it at all is an inconvenience, that is the point, overcoming it leads to gratification for players.

    I also disagree with your notion that flying should be added because the zones lose their luster. The solution to that problem should be to not go there again.
    World Quests and Dailies might be infinite, but they are not necessarily meant ot be done indefinitely, there is a point where doing them becomes pointless and players should be free to stop doing them, adding flying after that just seems like it is meant to appease those that don't care to the detriment of those that do.

    And yes, I am sugfgesting making flying more inconvenient, because currently flying is simply too good. There is no content that Blizzard can design that would actually be made better by flying. The closest we have are areas like Storm Peaks that were designed in such a way that flying was necessary, but that didn't make flying better.
    A revamp of flying could allow flying to actually be an option capable of being balanced around content, because currently all flying does is make all the ground based challenges moot as flying over them unhindered is such a dominant option that you would have to actively limit yourself to not use it.


    I have said before, and I stand by that flying in WoW is fun in the same way playing Garry's mod by yourself is. Sure you can have tiny momentary bursts of fun when you first get your hands on it, but you are not getting challenged in any way that actually makes the player feel gratification from overcoming a challenge.
    Playing GTA 5 and flying a jet between buildings is fun because there is a tangible risk of failure, as well as a level of skill needed. Try a similar thing in WoW and it is about as satisfying as eating a stale piece of bread.

    Making something challenging is at the heart of playing games, and ass it stands flying in WoW is simply removing a challenge and not substituting it with anything. And when there is no challenge there is no room for growth. Flying in WoW peaked as soon as it launched because there simply isnt any other place for it to grow as a mechanic.
    Had it been momentum based then you could have zones with more ledges and updrafts. If it was based on stamina then you could have ways of strengthening it or replenishing it midair. If it was based on eveb rudimentary understanding of inertai and takeoff then zones that allowed flying could actually be designed to allow flying in ways that doesnt make ground mounts obsolete as anything but mounts for areas where flying is simply not allowed.


    Besdies, consider for a moment this. Seeing as Flying is antithetical to world design and at least a large chunk of those that care about open world content don't want flying, we are unlikely to ever go back to TBC- MoP where flying was available instantly.
    Wouldnt you rather have a version of flying that could coexist with the current game? Actually allowing flying to be available from the beginning? Or is the noclip flight too important to your enjoyment of the game?

    And surely you have played other games that have flight? Wouldnt you rather have a form of flying that actually has enough gameplay to allow a sense of accomplishment and fun?

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    Just to further elaborate on what I mean by making a zone better with a different form of flying.

    Zones like Suramar are not made better by for instance a momentum based for of flying since it is flat and doesn't have areas that allow realistic takeoff points. At best it would be fun to parachute in after flying above.
    Highmountain meanwhile would be made better by a more involved form of flying, since it is comprised of so many large cliffs mountains and valleys. Jumping down from the highest mountain gaining momentum and trying to skillfully land on a different mountain is a challenge that works both as a self imposed challenge, as well as a potential game challenge, like for instance as part of a quest or something.

    When you look at flying now consider simply how little room there is for gameplay. Being able to move freely in all three dimensions is good if you want to reach a specific point, but terrible if you want to create a challenge around it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #3134
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    If you want the expansion to end, making it end a patch shorter won't speed anything up, if anything the same people that want it to end will moan about no content. Watching this thread progress. I don't think people know what they want.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  15. #3135
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If you want the expansion to end, making it end a patch shorter won't speed anything up, if anything the same people that want it to end will moan about no content. Watching this thread progress. I don't think people know what they want.
    I think the bigger issue is that they refuse to acknowledge what the price for their desires is and insist on holding on to the belief that dropping 9.3 will somehow make 10.0 happen faster.

  16. #3136
    It will one way or another come sooner and happen faster, people that keep on insisting that no 9.3 doesn't mean a sooner 10.0 are just deliberately negative because we need 9.3 in their opinion (guess what, we don't). This really hasn't much to do with development process, but with scheduling / timing.

    With 9.3 there is a 0.1% chance that the next expansion will launch in 2022. For that to happen they have to shorten the final tier during a pandemic where their development process has been considerably slowed down - so that's not going to happen. With no 9.3 there is a real chance that the next expansion is indeed launching in 2022.

    The existence of 9.3 and 10.0 coming in 2022 doesn't add up. The non-existence of 9.3 and 10.0 therefore coming in 2022 does. With no 9.3 they just have to be back on their usual schedule to give us 10.0 in Q4/22, which isn't unlikely. If they release 9.1 in July, 9.2 in January and 10.0 in November we pretty much would have a normal expansion rollout from 9.1 on.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2021-06-06 at 08:07 AM.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  17. #3137
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It will one way or another come sooner and happen faster, people that keep on insisting that no 9.3 doesn't mean a sooner 10.0 are just deliberately negative because we need 9.3 in their opinion (guess what, we don't). This really hasn't much to do with development process, but with scheduling / timing.

    With 9.3 there is a 0.1% chance that the next expansion will launch in 2022. For that to happen they have to shorten the final tier during a pandemic where their development process has been considerably slowed down - so that's not going to happen. With no 9.3 there is a real chance that the next expansion is indeed launching in 2022.
    If that's the case, there's a 0.1% chance of the expansion launching in 2022, 9.3 or not. 10.0 is already in the works. It's already delayed. 9.3 is irrelevant to that, not having a 9.3 simply means the drought will be longer.

  18. #3138
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If that's the case, there's a 0.1% chance of the expansion launching in 2022, 9.3 or not. 10.0 is already in the works. It's already delayed. 9.3 is irrelevant to that, not having a 9.3 simply means the drought will be longer.
    How can 9.3 be irrelevant to that? You think all the developers that work / would work on 9.3 just do nothing for 10.0? It's silly to think that the manpower they can spare by not having 9.3 isn't positively affecting the development of 10.0.

    Do you think Legion would have launched back in August 2016 when WoD had gotten a 6.3 patch half a year after 6.2? They had no 6.3 to accelerate and focus work on Legion. The same can easily apply to 9.3 and the next expansion right now. And they could have made this decision even before Shadowlands' launch because they knew they'd be late with everything. A delay for 10.0 means we assume there ever were plans to have 9.3, a thing we simply have no insight on. Maybe 9.3 was never planned and Shadowlands was always going to end with the 9.2(.5) patch and everything besides the wait for 9.1 is pretty much as usual.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2021-06-06 at 08:40 AM.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  19. #3139
    Obviously 8.3 isn’t happening
    Sorry
    I mean 9.3
    It’s just when the same discussion happens again you kinda get the numbers mixed up

  20. #3140
    "We NEED 9.3" is same bullshit as "we NEED expansion in 2022". It's that hard to understand?

    1. Argument for first - we had WoD. And this time it would be even hidden better, since CN will last longer than Highmaul + BRF combined, and we will have extra patch after SoD.

    2. Argument for second - we had expansions that lasted more than 25 months, MoP and BfA to be specific. Gap between expansions is relevant, not year. Not even month - we had expansions coming in January, August, September, November - every time launch was financial success.

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