1. #3641
    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
    that definition of retcon completely undermines and devalues the term "retcon" as in any way remotely being useful for discussion

    literally any sort of new information becomes a retcon with this definition
    That's where original authorial intent comes in, as mentioned from the beginning. It's wishy washy.

    When people who didn't even work on the narrative that was established 19 years ago do something that drastically alters it and prior character motivations to twist things to suit the story they want to tell? That sounds like a retcon to me.

    Edit:
    The verb usage might be more appropriate fitting: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
    Last edited by GR8GODZILLAGOD; 2021-06-19 at 02:18 AM.

  2. #3642
    First Ones pop in > First Ones make the 6-7 Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Powers are imbalanced > First Ones team up and take part of themselves to help balance out the Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Framework is in place > The framework causes the Shadowlands to be made, the Physical Universe to be made, the Cosmic Pantheons to be made, etc.

    This 7th Cosmic Power is quite possibly outside the chart, and imo, that power is actually known all along but it's overlooked AKA Geometry, the very thing the Broker in the pages talks about. It's used to the advantage of the First Ones to help construct the framework of the other six forces, and practically set up everything we see ever.

    That's my theory. I'll stick to it till the Grimoire comes out (Or maybe that'll only help it out? idk), but until then, this is what I think.

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    Cosmic Hierarchy:

    1. First Ones

    2. Cosmic Powers

    3. Cosmic Pantheons and by extension the framework of the Cosmos.

    4. Old Gods, Prime Naaru, Titan Keepers, etc.

    5. Elemental Lords.

    6. Guys such as the Lich King, Azshara, etc.

    7. The Faction Leaders.

    And 8. You, but without the logic of your player character. So, basically if you lived on Azeroth, and you were nothing but a knight or an average Peasant.

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    @zantheus1993

    What do you think of my theory?

  3. #3643
    Quote Originally Posted by GR8GODZILLAGOD View Post
    That's where original authorial intent comes in, as mentioned from the beginning. It's wishy washy.

    When people who didn't even work on the narrative that was established 19 years ago do something that drastically alters it and prior character motivations to twist things to suit the story they want to tell? That sounds like a retcon to me.

    Edit:
    The verb usage might be more appropriate fitting: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
    We have no idea what the original authors intended so how can we make this judgement?

    for example: Xelnath has said this cosmic stuff we are seeing now was something Metzen was setting up as far back as TBC see the Skra'gath section, but your average forumite is gonna blame Danuser or whoever because Metzen is gone so clearly the new writers are just doing whatever with no respect to what he built
    Last edited by TomatoBisque; 2021-06-19 at 03:07 AM.

  4. #3644
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    First Ones pop in > First Ones make the 6-7 Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Powers are imbalanced > First Ones team up and take part of themselves to help balance out the Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Framework is in place > The framework causes the Shadowlands to be made, the Physical Universe to be made, the Cosmic Pantheons to be made, etc.

    This 7th Cosmic Power is quite possibly outside the chart, and imo, that power is actually known all along but it's overlooked AKA Geometry, the very thing the Broker in the pages talks about. It's used to the advantage of the First Ones to help construct the framework of the other six forces, and practically set up everything we see ever.

    That's my theory. I'll stick to it till the Grimoire comes out (Or maybe that'll only help it out? idk), but until then, this is what I think.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Cosmic Hierarchy:

    1. First Ones

    2. Cosmic Powers

    3. Cosmic Pantheons and by extension the framework of the Cosmos.

    4. Old Gods, Prime Naaru, Titan Keepers, etc.

    5. Elemental Lords.

    6. Guys such as the Lich King, Azshara, etc.

    7. The Faction Leaders.

    And 8. You, but without the logic of your player character. So, basically if you lived on Azeroth, and you were nothing but a knight or an average Peasant.

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    @zantheus1993

    What do you think of my theory?
    the 7th wishes to claim what the 6 keep balanced

    personally i am still convinced that the first ones were argus and azeroth and the eternal ones are the keepers but it is an interesting theory

  5. #3645
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    the 7th wishes to claim what the 6 keep balanced

    personally i am still convinced that the first ones were argus and azeroth and the eternal ones are the keepers but it is an interesting theory
    From what I could gather, maybe the "7th" and the "6th" are in regards to the First Ones. The Broker thing seems to also have some implications that the forces or the Great Powers are not really the Cosmic Influences, but they're actually the First Ones. And there may be 6 or 7 of them, depending on your view. Which implies there may be a 7th First Ones that disagrees with the others ideals of teaming together and giving structure/form to the designs they made.

  6. #3646
    Everliving Statuette: Hidden from daylight, a sleeping flame rests atop the sixth tree.
    im still wondering what this is

    Everliving Statuette: Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.
    the story of the titans, the jailer, arthas, sylvanas, all the same

    Everliving Statuette: So many secrets, so little time left to share them.
    linked to something im not sure possibly the city of secrets

    Everliving Statuette: A city of secrets. A history of lies.
    hinting that the history we know is a lie and possibly the reason the jailer was imprisoned

    Everliving Statuette: How many voices do you heed? How many are real?
    the voice of the arbiter is lying to us

    Everliving Statuette: The seventh covets what the six hold fast. The fulcrum wavers. All will be undone
    THIS THIS RIGHT HERE the first ones are coming

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    From what I could gather, maybe the "7th" and the "6th" are in regards to the First Ones. The Broker thing seems to also have some implications that the forces or the Great Powers are not really the Cosmic Influences, but they're actually the First Ones. And there may be 6 or 7 of them, depending on your view. Which implies there may be a 7th First Ones that disagrees with the others ideals of teaming together and giving structure/form to the designs they made.
    if there are 7 first ones then im more convinced that Argus and Azeroth werent simply titans

    argus is the unmaker and referred to as the death titan

    Azeroth is "not the last but the first" meaning she might not be the last titan but a first one

  7. #3647
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Everliving Statuette: Hidden from daylight, a sleeping flame rests atop the sixth tree.
    im still wondering what this is

    Everliving Statuette: Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.
    the story of the titans, the jailer, arthas, sylvanas, all the same

    Everliving Statuette: So many secrets, so little time left to share them.
    linked to something im not sure possibly the city of secrets

    Everliving Statuette: A city of secrets. A history of lies.
    hinting that the history we know is a lie and possibly the reason the jailer was imprisoned

    Everliving Statuette: How many voices do you heed? How many are real?
    the voice of the arbiter is lying to us

    Everliving Statuette: The seventh covets what the six hold fast. The fulcrum wavers. All will be undone
    THIS THIS RIGHT HERE the first ones are coming

    - - - Updated - - -



    if there are 7 first ones then im more convinced that Argus and Azeroth werent simply titans

    argus is the unmaker and referred to as the death titan

    Azeroth is "not the last but the first" meaning she might not be the last titan but a first one
    Azeroth could be a Titan empowered by the First Ones to keep as an anchor to balance out Reality.

    Balance can very much hold all Cosmic Powers at bay while also having the power to claim it all. Hence why I also talk about Geometry, since Geometry being the power to destroy all powers would make sense, as by its will it can imbalance and overpower everything.

  8. #3648
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Azeroth could be a Titan empowered by the First Ones to keep as an anchor to balance out Reality.

    Balance can very much hold all Cosmic Powers at bay while also having the power to claim it all. Hence why I also talk about Geometry, since Geometry being the power to destroy all powers would make sense, as by its will it can imbalance and overpower everything.
    we are told in chronicles that the pantheon hid azeroth
    zovaal is looking for that which the first ones sought to keep hidden
    our link to azeroth allowed us to be able to activate a relic of the first one

    im not convinced the titans are the ones that hid azeroth and i in no way believe she is simply a titan

  9. #3649
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    we are told in chronicles that the pantheon hid azeroth
    zovaal is looking for that which the first ones sought to keep hidden
    our link to azeroth allowed us to be able to activate a relic of the first one

    im not convinced the titans are the ones that hid azeroth and i in no way believe she is simply a titan
    The Pantheon simply hid Azeroth away from Sargeras' wrath. Simple. I think the Sepulcher is away from Azeroth.

    Also, regarding the Statue, it could just be doomsaying. I think the 7th Power is Balance (Since that can explain the Geometric language of the Cosmos, the Elements, and the overall balanced nature of the Forces, etc),and I think the Statue is simplying doomsaying in that Balance will swallow up the other forces and what they try to "hold", and that balance itself will eat away the very balance it's trying to keep sway of.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually...

    Hold up. If my theory is true and the 6 First Ones banded together, gave a pieces of themselves to bring form to their designs, hence the chart. And if the Broker was assuming there was a 6th First One, tho to the Broker at the time, it was likely that the 7th was but an Artifact of the Geometry...

    What if the thing outside the Pattern is an Evil First One?

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    And that Evil First One is the Final Boss in all of WoW?

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    I have more theories regarding the 7th power, but I'll chat about that later...

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    Just know that Light and Shadow likely isn't the end all factor of WoW.

  10. #3650
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    The Pantheon simply hid Azeroth away from Sargeras' wrath. Simple. I think the Sepulcher is away from Azeroth.

    Also, regarding the Statue, it could just be doomsaying. I think the 7th Power is Balance (Since that can explain the Geometric language of the Cosmos, the Elements, and the overall balanced nature of the Forces, etc),and I think the Statue is simplying doomsaying in that Balance will swallow up the other forces and what they try to "hold", and that balance itself will eat away the very balance it's trying to keep sway of.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually...

    Hold up. If my theory is true and the 6 First Ones banded together, gave a pieces of themselves to bring form to their designs, hence the chart. And if the Broker was assuming there was a 6th First One, tho to the Broker at the time, it was likely that the 7th was but an Artifact of the Geometry...

    What if the thing outside the Pattern is an Evil First One?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And that Evil First One is the Final Boss in all of WoW?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have more theories regarding the 7th power, but I'll chat about that later...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just know that Light and Shadow likely isn't the end all factor of WoW.
    theres only one thing that i am certain of
    Azeroth is tied to the first ones
    canonically we have a special connection to her
    we were able to interact with the first ones relic that nobody could activate including the jailer and presumably denathrius
    the line "she is not the last but the first" is still important because we also have the line "we must assemble the final titan"
    azeroth cant be a titan like the others
    Argus also has memory spanning before memory began thus before time and according to chronicles norgannon was the first titan and he made time meaning argus has memories before norgannon so either he isnt a titan or norgannon isnt the first


    i think the city of secrets in the statue is actually oribos because whispers are always annoying

    as for light and shadow i dont think its as big a deal as some make it out to be since apparently the big wars through the cosmos were dreadlord plots

    the evil first one
    the evil primal force of the universe
    the 7th primal force being balance is a strange thing for me because every force works together for balance so imo its not that
    the only thing the 6 have in common is reality
    so the 7th primal force would have to be something that tears apart reality or has some effect on it

    im ignoring the sepulcher because in 9.1 we will get either a hint about what it is or we will be told exactly what it is

    in terms of cosmic forces the 7th can be "nothing" which unlike the void is literally nothing
    yeah we have decay but even void lords exist
    unmaking could be a literal sense of a 7th force

  11. #3651
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    theres only one thing that i am certain of
    Azeroth is tied to the first ones
    canonically we have a special connection to her
    we were able to interact with the first ones relic that nobody could activate including the jailer and presumably denathrius
    the line "she is not the last but the first" is still important because we also have the line "we must assemble the final titan"
    azeroth cant be a titan like the others
    Argus also has memory spanning before memory began thus before time and according to chronicles norgannon was the first titan and he made time meaning argus has memories before norgannon so either he isnt a titan or norgannon isnt the first


    i think the city of secrets in the statue is actually oribos because whispers are always annoying

    as for light and shadow i dont think its as big a deal as some make it out to be since apparently the big wars through the cosmos were dreadlord plots

    the evil first one
    the evil primal force of the universe
    the 7th primal force being balance is a strange thing for me because every force works together for balance so imo its not that
    the only thing the 6 have in common is reality
    so the 7th primal force would have to be something that tears apart reality or has some effect on it

    im ignoring the sepulcher because in 9.1 we will get either a hint about what it is or we will be told exactly what it is

    in terms of cosmic forces the 7th can be "nothing" which unlike the void is literally nothing
    yeah we have decay but even void lords exist
    unmaking could be a literal sense of a 7th force
    City of Secrets is Korthia.

    I'm of the idea that the 7th force is likely an Evil First One and the other First Ones tried to stop him, and once the other 6 united, the 7th was left alone, disagreeing with the other 6. I think that 7th one fucked with the Design, and made concepts such as War, conflict, etc exist there. Maybe the 7th power is why the other 6 were in conflict with eachother also. As if the 7 Powers represent and create the Platonic Concepts of all things.

    I don't think there is anything above the First Ones. And if there is (And at most, it will be a singular all powerful God), then I'm gonna slap tf outta Blizzard for causing me this big a headache lmao

  12. #3652
    Quote Originally Posted by GR8GODZILLAGOD View Post
    That's where original authorial intent comes in, as mentioned from the beginning. It's wishy washy.

    When people who didn't even work on the narrative that was established 19 years ago do something that drastically alters it and prior character motivations to twist things to suit the story they want to tell? That sounds like a retcon to me.

    Edit:
    The verb usage might be more appropriate fitting: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
    That definition require us to sit in writers head. We can only guess. Probably we would be right that writers back in Warcraft III had different interpretation. Can we said that about Wrath writers? Maybe, but clearly Sylvanas arc at end of Wrath is sign there is more than meets the eye.

    But can we assume anything post Chronicles - when they started to "sort out" whole lore? Hell no. Even in first book Dreadlords are clearly independent, they are not race influenced by Sargeras, it's other way around. Antorus raid (only 2 years after first Chronicle) basically confirms they had Dreadlords on side of death in mind (it's only logical explanation of Varimathras).

    This is my main point, people act like Blizz is doing retcons left and right, inventing SL for this expac cause it's cool, but I can't find anything that would fit even your definition after they published first Chronicle.

    But most important is that it is unavoidable in "endless" story like WoW. If we we go on for another X expansions, at some point writers will come up with something that Chronicles authors didn't have in mind. So it is another case of "yeah, it's not best thing in the world, but there is no real alternative" - like borrowed power that is also consequence of "endless" RPG.

    Sometimes it's even best thing writers can do, I understand people are pissed Blizzard is touching precious WIII story, but for example before Legion Illidan book did same with horrible TBC story that didn't have sense back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    when sarg gets frostmourne its been retconned from the dreadlords stealing it to them giving it to him
    In old lore only piece of information we had was that Nathrezim crafted Frostmourne for KJ. But we never were witness of this process, and there is not piece of info I know that KJ was witness. It's another example of new stuff fit into old lore without contradictions.
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2021-06-19 at 05:50 AM.

  13. #3653
    also nothing in the modern lore will ever be as big a retcon as the draenei/eredar change from TBC and people have just completely accepted that

    The things we've called draenei for the past 15 years are nothing like the things we played in WC3. They can't even be what would be the iconic class for what they were in WC3 (Rogue, as the playable ones in the campaign were defined by being permanently invisible)

  14. #3654
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post

    Azeroth is "not the last but the first" meaning she might not be the last titan but a first one
    I'm fairly certain the "not the last but the first" is actually in reference to Skyja of the Nine val'kyr.

    She is the very last val'kyr we meet, but is described as the first one to go over to the Jailer.

    She's not the last of the nine, but the first.

  15. #3655
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    City of Secrets is Korthia.

    I'm of the idea that the 7th force is likely an Evil First One and the other First Ones tried to stop him, and once the other 6 united, the 7th was left alone, disagreeing with the other 6. I think that 7th one fucked with the Design, and made concepts such as War, conflict, etc exist there. Maybe the 7th power is why the other 6 were in conflict with eachother also. As if the 7 Powers represent and create the Platonic Concepts of all things.

    I don't think there is anything above the First Ones. And if there is (And at most, it will be a singular all powerful God), then I'm gonna slap tf outta Blizzard for causing me this big a headache lmao
    Right the title there is city of secrets
    However the whisper also has the history of lies part and unless they add more information in it then I think it’s possible it’s oribos because it’s “A city of secrets” not “The city of secrets”

    Also I think the concept of war is from disorder

    Now unmaking is very interesting because if something is unmade then it’s nothing
    It’s not killed because death is still a state of being
    Unmaking though is like being erased

    Let’s assume each force has a first one

    The void has “the void lords” which can actually all be one being because of how the void works

    The light can have some ultra na’aru

    Nature can have the mother of the winter queen and Elune

    Disorder might have a being of pure Fel energy

    Order might actually be Azeroth

    Death might have been Argus IMO because he has a big tie to death and he had ties to the shadowlands and he was responsible for the rebirth of the demons showing he had control over death and his limited power form still had the power to kill everything in reality

    The line about the story staying the same could have a tie to the first ones even with the 7th being betrayed by the others

    What if there was 7 in harmony but then something led to Argus and Azeroth getting imprisoned maybe because they sided with the 7th

  16. #3656
    My guess is since they really don't have much of anywhere else to go, that 10.0 will be a form of closure for the game. With consecutive 10.X patches releasing small content updates, similar to that of Final Fantasy XI. Basically a new level cap, a "Round out the story." expansion along with every instance having a level capped version along with every raid so that players can gear up and customize the way they want. WoW isn't dead, but it's on its last legs for sure. With Classic rolling through the old expansions, there isn't really much incentive to put too much development into Retail.

  17. #3657
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    I'm fairly certain the "not the last but the first" is actually in reference to Skyja of the Nine val'kyr.

    She is the very last val'kyr we meet, but is described as the first one to go over to the Jailer.

    She's not the last of the nine, but the first.
    I mean that is possible as well
    But in context there were multiple whispers referring to “she” so we can assume it’s the same “she” or at least I do

  18. #3658
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Are we still upset about Ret-cons? Like really?
    I'm not against retcons.
    WoW is after all an MMO and a long running one at that, retcons are bound to happen.

    What i take an issue with is the rate at which they happen and the very apparent lack of thought put into them.

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  19. #3659
    Quote Originally Posted by Nanaki626 View Post
    My guess is since they really don't have much of anywhere else to go, that 10.0 will be a form of closure for the game. With consecutive 10.X patches releasing small content updates, similar to that of Final Fantasy XI. Basically a new level cap, a "Round out the story." expansion along with every instance having a level capped version along with every raid so that players can gear up and customize the way they want. WoW isn't dead, but it's on its last legs for sure. With Classic rolling through the old expansions, there isn't really much incentive to put too much development into Retail.
    People have been saying this since Legion and it just doesn't make any sense. WoW is the big money maker for blizzard, all their other games are funded by the money it brings in.

    And if they were getting ready to close up WoW they wouldn't be agonizing so much about giving players longterm power and the bloat associated with that (see: borrowed power)

    classic exists for blizzard to make money off the forumites screaming about how much better the game was back in the day, no more no less

  20. #3660
    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
    People have been saying this since Legion and it just doesn't make any sense. WoW is the big money maker for blizzard, all their other games are funded by the money it brings in.
    While i dont think blizzard will ever make an mmorpg again (something like Destiny 2 at most) thats like literally not true. We can see from the quarterly reports that stuff like HS is insanely profitable

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