Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[draugril]

Player Housing:

tbh, the game is in worst spot ever and has WAY bigger problems than a missing player housing feature. don’t get me wrong: player housing is „nice“. as some feature 5 or 6 on a feature list. foremost the game needs content. and quality. not some more stupid features, in a cheap shit xpac. when we are back to the quantity and quality of normal content, like in 2010 or earlier, THEN they can add player housing on top of it.

what i wanna say: just take shitty SL. do you REALLY think SL would had that less problems and that much more players, when it just had player housing on top of it??? when Blizz is back to quality and quantity 8+/10 in regards to content THEN they can implement some player housing feature. but i for myself, and it seems many others, give a fuck about player housing embedded in an otherwise shitty cheap xpac.

The thing is, even with relatively poor player housing, those droughts will sting less for a lot of the playerbase. They can make their own content.

[Santandame]

Player Housing over Guild Housing if its one or the other.

In an ideal world, both would be added. But you need to take into account that a lot of players aren't in a guild, and a lot are in a guild they don't have any attachment to. Also, I assume the Guild Master would hold all the power and gain the most to benefit from a Guild Hall, which seems a tad unfair.

At least everyone would have something to gain from their own, separate player house.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Maybe some UI overhaul?
Achievements definitely need it

The whole UI really needs it, it's old af

Housing confirmed!!!!!!!!!! /s

I'd really like housing though so pls mr Jeff.

I'd love that

[Grimbold21]

The most striking example is the stratification of PvE over the years.

It started as one-size-fits-all. This meant that I (a medium-skilled player), my girlfriend (a lower-skilled player) and my brother (a highly-skilled player) could all join the same raid and get some enjoyment out of it as a social experience in addition to being mechanically awarded. My brother felt no pressure to leave us behind because he was completing the highest tier of content available to him - there was no mechanical reason for him to find a more hardcore group.

These days? If you aren't actively playing with people at your exact level of skill with a similar schedule, you're simply playing the game wrong. There's a chore list that needs to be conquered to the best of your ability and failure to do so leaves you at a disadvantage competitively. If you have a mixed group of players that can barely get Normal down and you want to start Heroic, all the while your top players are looking to start Mythic, your social group is going to fracture very quickly. If my brother can only get a few keys in this week, but I don't have the gear or skill to complete that +15 he wants to get down, the game is telling him not to play with me, and I don't want him to carry me, either, to his detriment.

So even within that "PvE" category, the game is more more laser focused on catering to specific individuals.

WoW also used to be more open to exploration, discovery, and environmental storytelling. And no, I'm not talking about flying around a zone staring at my minimap to collect treasures - that is not exploration. There used to be entire zones that were functionally useless and only existed for world-building, and they're memorable because of that, even if you didn't do a single quest.

Also, the elephant in the room is player power and the loot treadmill. Some people just dislike the concept. But Blizzard ties so much of its content into it. Torghast is a great example - it would have been an excellent feature for breadth, but they kneecapped themselves by tying it into player power. Thus, they began to cater the content to people that didn't even want to be doing it instead of the people that were legitimately interested in the concept.

"Breadth" doesn't need to come from non-combat activities, exclusively. It definitely can be found in those non-combat activities, but WoW doesn't need to completely abandon their strengths to please a broader playerbase.

Even with the "one size fits all" mode, you still had stratification. There were guilds that cleared the content, and the one's that didn't. The ones that did it faster, and the ones who did it slower.
The game still punished you for having "dead weight" in your raids.

I don't really grasp the meaning of your remark. The quality of your group will reflect on the manner with which you finish the content (if you finish). That your brother is a hardcore player is already an indication of how he'd want to do that content.

So people seek others that have the same priorities and playstyle. What is the problem? Isn't that what we ultimately want in a community? Likeness that, to an extent, helps us complete the content effectively. Skill and schedule was never not a thing.

As for the systems related grind, you'll find no argument agaisnt from me. Some people like two call it rose-tinted glasses, but in truth all that means is the comparison between two products, two different experiences, and making a judgement on what was the best approach. That said, remove all that systems stuff and let my endgame concern be as it was in the early iterations of the game: I hit max lvl and go do the content that I wish to do to gear my char up, be that 5 man normals, heroics, mythic, or raiding. Simple.

As for world building, you'd have to provide specific examples.

[Hypester]

Player Housing:

tbh, the game is in worst spot ever and has WAY bigger problems than a missing player housing feature. don’t get me wrong: player housing is „nice“. as some feature 5 or 6 on a feature list. foremost the game needs content. and quality. not some more stupid features, in a cheap shit xpac. when we are back to the quantity and quality of normal content, like in 2010 or earlier, THEN they can add player housing on top of it.

what i wanna say: just take shitty SL. do you REALLY think SL would had that less problems and that much more players, when it just had player housing on top of it??? when Blizz is back to quality and quantity 8+/10 in regards to content THEN they can implement some player housing feature. but i for myself, and it seems many others, give a fuck about player housing embedded in an otherwise shitty cheap xpac.

People care less and less about raiding and M+. Islands, Warfronts and Torghast all flopped.

What do you propose to add to get players invested in the game that isn't Housing? Because Raids and dungeons don't cut it anymore and "good story" likely will not keep players around even if it makes the community happier when talking about the game.

I actively implore this thread to consider. The only welcomed type of new gameplay besides M+ since the game's inception has been Mage Tower.

[AngerFork]

If it was guild-focused, I'd probably call it Guild Housing instead of Player Housing. Which I would actually be okay with. For example, Free Company houses in FFXIV are a good thing overall because you can host fun guild events and such. Personal housing, on the other hand, is an abomination in that game and every other game that has ever implemented it.

The problem that I've always had with Guild Housing as compared to Player Housing is that it basically turns all controls over your place to the guild leader, and guild leaders can be extremely controlling or over the top with it. I've seen so many guilds fall apart due to how the guild leader tends to change over time, from getting hyper competitive with new raids to dating someone new that doesn't like another guild member to simple loot drama. Setting up a housing system as guild only is giving the same GM/Officers newfound power over whatever housing a player would have, & they tend to be the only ones that get to enjoy the fun of actually building/adjusting it. This goes double if player rooms are a part of a guild house as that in essence means your room only exists so long as your guild leader wants it to.

When I have my own house in FFXIV or other games, I have a lot more control. If I want a store or rooms for my alts, I can add those in. If I want to decorate for the holidays, I can. What I have earned & designed, I get to keep rather than leave to the whims of someone else. Why not create my own guild, you might ask? Likely I would...as would many others to have their own personal guild house for alts & the like, which in essence turns it into a personal system anyway.

Aside from the neighborhood system (which is an absolute disaster), what about personal housing in FFXIV do you feel is an abomination persay? If player housing was instanced, would it really be such a blight to WoW?

[guro-tchai]

that map looks good, but i still don't like the idea of having a zone for every one of five original dragonflights. to me it means that each zone will be a boring and unbelievable theme park, painted red/green/etc. yes, like SL.
this could still happen, but i want to interpret the following from Exploring Kalimdor as a confirmation that strictly themed zones aren't on the table:

The distant legends about the dragons and their riders also spoke of an ancient home for all dragonflights, but Rexxar said such a place has never been found.

italics are mine

[ercarp]

I see you have a spreadsheet going! I wonder if any of them proposed guild housing, specifically.

Yeah, I had to make one for old times' sake. But I don't think we'll get to the staggering 89 "leaks" that I had listed for 9.0's spreadsheet, especially since the real leak dropped this early. It narrows it down quite a bit when every "leak" is going to be "World of Warcraft: Dragonflight" with a slightly different spin on it.

The problem with guild housing is that Blizzard is so individualistic. Could you imagine the whining on the forums because a Blood Elf player needs to "live" in an Orcish Stronghold? Maybe a personal neighborhood for a guild would be appropriate, to give more people a "say" in the system. But I can't see it happening, since Blizzard has functionally abandoned guilds as a system.

Well, the player does still have agency over what kind of a guild they want to join and be a part of. Especially on RP realms, I imagine a Blood Elf player would probably join a guild with a Blood Elf themed guild house rather than an Orcish one. If they join a guild that has a guild house with the "wrong" architecture and that's somehow a deal-breaker to them, they can just leave the guild.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Uhh... does Ardenweald count? It's mildly Celtic inspired.

More like generic spirit forest to me, and it doesn't scream Ireland like a rainy, rocky cliff covered in grass with heavy winds would

[Khaza-R]

I'd be for player housing if there was a strong community aspect to it. Something like player villagers where you were incentivized for interacting with other players and could create some really random and crazy things together. I feel like that kind of energy is very much in the spirit of TTRPGs

I don't see that happening though because Blizzard seems to have some issues with players creating their own fun.

[Niwes]

The thing is, even with relatively poor player housing, those droughts will sting less for a lot of the playerbase. They can make their own content.

naah. wether poor player housing nor rich featured player housing will stop the mass leaving of wow, when we get another cheap shit expansion. player housing for wows success matters in the first place as much as getting some cool new sunglasses, when stranded on a deserted island. yes ofc, sunclasses are nice on an island. but your priority1 is not to die to missing food and water…

seriously, when we get some acceptable xpac, then they can do player housing next time. when they relearned how to make good xpacs. and NOONE cares about fukin player housing in a game where EVERYTHING else is shit, in a game no longer anyone plays.

everything else is stupid naive AF or wonderland dreaming or too much dope.

[Vakir]

More like generic spirit forest to me, and it doesn't scream Ireland like a rainy, rocky cliff covered in grass with heavy winds would

It has some Celtic myth and name inspiration though. The zone aesthetic not as much.

[Holdodlig]

Here ya go: https://twitter.com/jeffliu/status/1511387690146557958

By the way we don't even know how will the reveal go or have I missed something ? During Blizzcon they usually talk about each zone, the new systems and give some lore insight during the different panels. Will we get one big 1 hour video just about WoW like the conf they had for Legion ?

[draugril]

Well, the player does still have agency over what kind of a guild they want to join and be a part of. Especially on RP realms, I imagine a Blood Elf player would probably join a guild with a Blood Elf themed guild house rather than an Orcish one. If they join a guild that has a guild house with the "wrong" architecture and that's somehow a deal-breaker to them, they can just leave the guild.

In my book, that's entirely valid. I love games that give guilds an identity beyond a nametag. But in Blizzard's book? I think they'd view it as "diminished player agency" and not pursue it at all.

[Triceron]

what i wanna say: just take shitty SL. do you REALLY think SL would had that less problems and that much more players, when it just had player housing on top of it??? when Blizz is back to quality and quantity 8+/10 in regards to content THEN they can implement some player housing feature. but i for myself, and it seems many others, give a fuck about player housing embedded in an otherwise shitty cheap xpac.

Unpopular opinion incoming:

Player housing wouldn't fix the game's problems, but it would give the players that like to collect something to do.

There's a significant portion of the playerbase who doesn't raid, doesn't care about the story, doesn't PVP, and kust want to progress their characters in their own way. Achievements, mount farming at a casual level, obtaining new transmogs, etc.

Player housing is another level of that. It doesn't need to fix the game. It will work to help keep people subbed and playing and fueling the economy in a legit way.

[draugril]

when stranded on a deserted island. yes ofc, sunclasses are nice on an island. but your priority1 is not to die to missing food and water…

I mean, if you're going to starve anyway, might as well do so in style.

[Raetary]

If it was guild-focused, I'd probably call it Guild Housing instead of Player Housing. Which I would actually be okay with. For example, Free Company houses in FFXIV are a good thing overall because you can host fun guild events and such. Personal housing, on the other hand, is an abomination in that game and every other game that has ever implemented it.

Why?

Guild housing is a subset of player housing.
It's the same exact system just tied to a GM and the handful of close friends they handpick.

Introducing guild housing without extending the system to the individual player would just lead to everyone who wants it create their own 1 man guild.
It's just a pointless and easily exploitable restriction.

[AngerFork]

One idea I've long liked as far as guild vs. player housing is the idea of instanced guild neighborhoods. Picture this: each person has their own house that they can build up, but always takes up X amount of space. Guild halls are a thing, but around the guild halls are a certain amount of plots for players where such houses can be placed. For those not in guilds and/or not in the neighborhood, they can access their housing plot via some sort of portal near a capital city. Those in a guild however can opt to bring their house into the neighborhood in a specific plot, perhaps with some sort of setup agreed with the GM or the like in case they want to have an officer wing or whatnot.

In that setup, we'd still have the social aspects of guild housing, but players could control their own area as well. Getting kicked out of or leaving a guild doesn't make you homeless, it just means your house reverts to the portal area. That also means that a guild can really build up their guild hall as well for events and advertising their guild to potential recruits.

[ercarp]

The problem that I've always had with Guild Housing as compared to Player Housing is that it basically turns all controls over your place to the guild leader, and guild leaders can be extremely controlling or over the top with it. I've seen so many guilds fall apart due to how the guild leader tends to change over time, from getting hyper competitive with new raids to dating someone new that doesn't like another guild member to simple loot drama.

And that's why I never join a guild. They're garbage.

When I have my own house in FFXIV or other games, I have a lot more control.

what about personal housing in FFXIV do you feel is an abomination persay? If player housing was instanced, would it really be such a blight to WoW?

I don't intend to turn this into a Game VS Game thing, and maybe this is a weird take, but I think the personal housing system in FFXIV is actually a shit ton more toxic and elitist than the hypothetical guild housing scenario you described above. And that's simply because it's almost impossible for anyone to get their hands on a goddamn house unless you're running some kind of bot that snatches it the second it becomes available. I don't understand why the fuck they thought it was a good idea to make the housing market in FFXIV so "realistic", lol. It's terrible.

[draugril]

Unpopular opinion incoming:

Player housing wouldn't fix the game's problems, but it would give the players that like to collect something to do.

There's a significant portion of the playerbase who doesn't raid, doesn't care about the story, doesn't PVP, and kust want to progress their characters in their own way. Achievements, mount farming at a casual level, obtaining new transmogs, etc.

Player housing is another level of that. It doesn't need to fix the game. It will work to help keep people subbed and playing and fueling the economy in a legit way.

Yep. My wife has a guild bank or two filled with virtually every obtainable dress in the game. Probably worth millions of gold if she sold it, particularly some of the rarer ones. Why does she do it? It's not for transmog. Not for profit. On a Paladin, no less? I have no earthly idea why. But I do recognize that there are players like her that never jumped on the loot treadmill and play incredibly casually.

She also plays Animal Crossing religiously. And no longer plays WoW, since they've made her experience less enjoyable in recent years. But something like housing? She'd be back in an instant.