1. #5701
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Many things created current situation:

    1) SL, at least compared to Legion/BfA is big shift from grind to raid log, which is always bad idea (but maybe it must happen every few expacs). Overall both BfA and SL take away more and more crazy stuff invented by Legion - but many of this crazy stuff were keeping people in game, even if they complained.

    Also, after they took all grind from Legion-like systems, all that is left is a shell, so no wonder many people feel systems in general are pointless. Renown/soulbinds almost fall from the sky, artifact was earned (at least on main).

    2) Covid + all possible reasons that delayed launch and especially patches.

    3) Too much focus on Sylvanas and taking away from players opportunity to kill her.

    4) Lawsuit (duh).

    5) Most funny thing - no content droughts similar to MoPs or WoDs. Even during longest one - from 8.3 to 9.0 - there was some Classic content + Blizzard manage this period very well with various buffs and changes to 8.3 + lockdown keep people in game. Last big break taken by many players (+ content creators, that have huge part in shaping general opinion) was 6.2->7.0. It's not coincidence so many have great memories from Legion launch.

    I don't see anything that is caused by shareholders/Activision with exception of one thing - timing. SL should be delayed to let's say March 2021, so devs would similar progress with patches like during Legion. It would solve both 2) and maybe 5) problems. But still general design of SL and story would stay.

    By the way, lawsuit explain why TBC was so rushed. I bet they either wanted push things ASAP or some negotiations with Cali took place.
    your 1) point i think is so spot on and i hope devs dont give into the raid log mentality, legion was a blast, bfa was good but toned down version of it, and castle nathria was raidlog central worst raid in a long time
    and asmon sneds his thousands of followers to go attack the systems guy while he plays ff14 which has waaay more systems than wow

  2. #5702
    I honestly think the big problem of Shadowlands in 9.0 was going for the raid/m+ log kind of scenario or say "seasonal log in" things like Timeless isle are very important to keep players engaged for at least 2-3 months say the least.

    Like Korthia is a big step in the right direction but I hope next patch we get something along the lines of Timeless Isle.

    I mean I do love Korthia and logging in every day to kill some rares in an open world alongside farming some rep + archivist codex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  3. #5703
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    I honestly think the big problem of Shadowlands in 9.0 was going for the raid/m+ log kind of scenario or say "seasonal log in" things like Timeless isle are very important to keep players engaged for at least 2-3 months say the least.
    Is it though? Going for a simple expansion was a good call following BFA I think.

    Most of the complaints about SL aren't raidlog, it's about the setting, story and people that think there are too many systems. Not the presence of grinds or lack of endgame content, which both Legion and BFA also suffered from. There isn't enough in SL for it to be a Legion 2 which is what the fanbase now constitutes as a "good expansion" because they have played so many WoW expansions that if it isn't crazy like Legion it feels boring.

    If they somehow won over everyone with the story I guarantee there wouldn't be half as much bitching about SL. And remember, the story is followed by people who don't even like or play WoW anymore so it's going to be louder.

    tl;dr Regardless of it's quality, Shadowlands is "not enough" for a lot of modern WoW players and they aren't going to enjoy it regardless of the quality of its content when there's not enough.
    Last edited by Nagawithlegs; 2021-08-22 at 05:16 PM.

  4. #5704
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Zombies, literally, walk upright:

    Again the joke is going over your head

    ZOMBIES DO NOT ACTUALLY EXIST

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Is it though? Going for a simple expansion was a good call following BFA I think.

    Most of the complaints about SL aren't raidlog, it's about the setting, story and people that think there are too many systems. Not the presence of grinds or lack of endgame content, which both Legion and BFA also suffered from. There isn't enough in SL for it to be a Legion 2 which is what the fanbase now constitutes as a "good expansion" because they have played so many WoW expansions that if it isn't crazy like Legion it feels boring.

    If they somehow won over everyone with the story I guarantee there wouldn't be half as much bitching about SL. And remember, the story is followed by people who don't even like or play WoW anymore so it's going to be louder.

    tl;dr Regardless of it's quality, Shadowlands is "not enough" for a lot of modern WoW players and they aren't going to enjoy it regardless of the quality of its content when there's not enough.
    Personally
    The story is crap
    “I will never serve” following her serving for the entire last two expansions
    The thanos knock-off
    The covenants working together but still hating each other

    The systems are all designed to slow players down and are disguised under “meaningful choice” because conduit energy makes it meaningful somehow

    Callings don’t reward anything meaningful outside of gold

    Domination gear is generic tier sets with extra steps because they realized “we don’t wanna lock multiple gear slots” was BS but still wanted some form of “see we did it better” because they are stubborn assholes
    And the last 3 expansions had an intro skip but not now

    There’s only so many times that I can get excited for a game when they take years to fix problems that were already solved

  5. #5705
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Is it though? Going for a simple expansion was a good call following BFA I think.

    Most of the complaints about SL aren't raidlog, it's about the setting, story and people that think there are too many systems. Not the presence of grinds or lack of endgame content, which both Legion and BFA also suffered from. There isn't enough in SL for it to be a Legion 2 which is what the fanbase now constitutes as a "good expansion" because they have played so many WoW expansions that if it isn't crazy like Legion it feels boring.

    If they somehow won over everyone with the story I guarantee there wouldn't be half as much bitching about SL. And remember, the story is followed by people who don't even like or play WoW anymore so it's going to be louder.

    tl;dr Regardless of it's quality, Shadowlands is "not enough" for a lot of modern WoW players and they aren't going to enjoy it regardless of the quality of its content when there's not enough.
    I feel the problems are mostly down to the story and setting not being conducive to player engagement. It is interesting to go to teh Shadwolands and stuff, but it feel very distant from WoW normally, which prevents the game from feeling like a part of WoW so much as a sidething. The story is also not that great either, and while that could be mostly forgiven in previous expansions this expansion cannot really lean back on the same things BfA did with seeing stuff players knew about and wanted to see like Nazjatar.

    The covid delay of 9.1 is also a massive hit of course. By this time we should be looking forward to the 10.0 reveal on Blizzcon and at worst being bored by 9.2, instead we are still in 9.1 with no idea what 9.2 will be.
    All of course compunded by the fact that players are not really capable of even having fun debating the story since the turns are mostly nonsensical, and what we do have just raises further questions. Future speculation is also mostly moot since there isnt enough of a thread between the stuff we care about and the stuff in SL, which means we are left completely in the dark. There isnt for instance the frevent speculation from BfA on a possible Defence of Stormwind raid or similar, since the pieces needed to come up with and be engaged by such ideas are absent.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #5706
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I feel the problems are mostly down to the story and setting not being conducive to player engagement. It is interesting to go to teh Shadwolands and stuff, but it feel very distant from WoW normally, which prevents the game from feeling like a part of WoW so much as a sidething. The story is also not that great either, and while that could be mostly forgiven in previous expansions this expansion cannot really lean back on the same things BfA did with seeing stuff players knew about and wanted to see like Nazjatar.
    That's the biggest problem with the setting and hopefully the heritage quests/9.1.5 quests remedy this by showing what is happening on Azeroth during this. We have some hints that this might happen (the datamined dark ranger questline in Tirisfal that may be foreshadowing the Scarlet Crusade, for one) but no hard confirmation.

    I think part of the reason why they chose SL as a pocket dimension setting is so they can completely hide Azeroth until they're doing making it HD, but the problem is that people really want to see Azeroth again and aren't really hype to ignore it for 2~ years. Blizzard are constantly showing they don't understand how impatient people are and they are insane if they thought Nelf fans for example would really be cool with no confirmation of a new capital city for 4 years.

    The sooner they announce/show HD Azeroth the better.
    Last edited by Nagawithlegs; 2021-08-22 at 06:05 PM.

  7. #5707
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR8GODZILLAGOD View Post
    Fucking Abominations walk upright.

    There are plenty of undead npcs and mobs that walk upright. The “they’re a walking corpse” excuse never made sense, especially since we’re dealing with magic anyway. If it really made sense, nothing about them would be “up” at all ;why would it be limited to the spine?
    Abominations kinda have to walk upright, they are basically spherically shaped. You ever seen hunched ball? :v
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

    "What does one life matter?"

  8. #5708
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Again the joke is going over your head

    ZOMBIES DO NOT ACTUALLY EXIST
    Yes, they do.
    Everyday when you go and return from work.
    Blizzard: datamines a shit icon. Teriz: hey, look guys. It's the Tinker!

  9. #5709
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    BfA broke Cata's sales record with 3.4M, SL broke BfA's record with 3.7M, which was this "failed" expansion again? Do you think bosses evaluate Ion's work from amount of bitching in fan forums?
    If investors haven’t cared now they should. Specifically, MAUs that are active and not merely subbed. It’s easy to let a sub run, streaming services prey on this. But customers eventually cancel their service. Inactivity is a good measurement to predict how many players they keep, and how to proceed in keeping them active for the next quarter.

    Right now they’re in a bit of a pickle. Stars are aligned against their favor.

  10. #5710
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    If investors haven’t cared now they should. Specifically, MAUs that are active and not merely subbed. It’s easy to let a sub run, streaming services prey on this. But customers eventually cancel their service. Inactivity is a good measurement to predict how many players they keep, and how to proceed in keeping them active for the next quarter.

    Right now they’re in a bit of a pickle. Stars are aligned against their favor.
    Consistent subs is what you would be looking for. In cases where the game does not automatically renew, which I believe is true for WoW, what players actually do with the time is irrelevant, what matters is whether they buy consistent subscriptions, and going by the many 6-month sub promotions I doubt Blizzard is likely to get many people that stop playing. Afterall, you get a 6-month sub, you play maybe a month or two, then you play something else, then finally you return when a new patch rolls around, and coincidentally right around that time you get another 6-month sub promotion.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #5711
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    I honestly think the big problem of Shadowlands in 9.0 was going for the raid/m+ log kind of scenario or say "seasonal log in" things like Timeless isle are very important to keep players engaged for at least 2-3 months say the least.

    Like Korthia is a big step in the right direction but I hope next patch we get something along the lines of Timeless Isle.

    I mean I do love Korthia and logging in every day to kill some rares in an open world alongside farming some rep + archivist codex.
    People are sick of daily chores and systems, and you think putting more chores is going to help?

    The reason way Timeless Isle was so popular was because was filled with events and rewards that were all either cosmetic or catch-up gear, the only mandatory activity in Timeless Isle was the World Boss Ordos, no crap reputations behind player power, no sockets, no arbitrary currencies. We literally finished our lego cloak questline the moment we get there. Everything else available there was just for fun.

    Korthia and the Maw is a big step in the WRONG direction.

    For some weird reason, Blizzard also decided a couple of expansions ago that getting BiS gear is bad and so they decided to create Warforged/Thunderforged and in Legion decided to double down on it creating Titanforged, but now that Warforged was removed in Shadowlands instead of going back to how loot worked back in Wrath of Lich King, they decided that getting BiS gear is still bad so they removed/reduced loot drops from many sources... and guess what? People hated it! What a surprise!
    Last edited by Luck4; 2021-08-22 at 09:35 PM.
    Azeroth must be remastered!

  12. #5712
    I feel like a big part, if not all, gear-related issues that we have right now come from Mythic+. The game having two endgame gearing paths through PvP and Raiding was fine, but M+ being pushed into the mix just made it really really messy. It wasn't quite as bad with Titanforging, but with it being gone, it really rears its ugly head.

  13. #5713
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    People are sick of daily chores and systems, and you think putting more chores is going to help?

    The reason way Timeless Isle was so popular was because was filled with events and rewards that were all either cosmetic or catch-up gear, the only mandatory activity in Timeless Isle was the World Boss Ordos, no crap reputations behind player power, no sockets, no arbitrary currencies. We literally finished our lego cloak questline the moment we get there. Everything else available there was just for fun.

    Korthia and the Maw is a big step in the WRONG direction.

    For some weird reason, Blizzard also decided a couple of expansions ago that getting BiS gear is bad and so they decided to create Warforged/Thunderforged and in Legion decided to double down on it creating Titanforged, but now that Warforged was removed in Shadowlands instead of going back to how loot worked back in Wrath of Lich King, they decided that getting BiS gear is still bad so they removed/reduced loot drops from many sources... and guess what? People hated it! What a surprise!
    No, the reason why Timeless Isle was popular is that it came at the end of easily one of the worst patches in the game's history, Escalation, and was not-dailies at the end of an expansion of endless dailies. It was also the first iteration of "effortlessly gear your alts via endlessly dropping tokens" which made its otherwise redundant and boring content extremely rewarding to the majority of the playerbase. Realistically it WAS mandatory for most players because most players had an alt or six for whom the gear was an upgrade and by far the easiest method of getting better gear.

    Warforging was born out of iterative development on secondary gear systems. I'm not sure why you think Blizzard decided on it "a couple expansions ago" when it is literally a system from mid-MoP, but also it was not implemented to void BiS, but rather so that people in BiS for a raid wouldn't feel like running a raid was completely worthless to them because there was nothing of value able to drop, since instead they'd have a small chance at getting and even better version of their equipped BiS item.

  14. #5714
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    On my 40th LFR sod run I just that about that first ones object talking about the sepulcher.
    Maybe the first ones just died or transfered their souls info artificial robots but left their powers in their sepulcher?
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

  15. #5715
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I feel like a big part, if not all, gear-related issues that we have right now come from Mythic+. The game having two endgame gearing paths through PvP and Raiding was fine, but M+ being pushed into the mix just made it really really messy. It wasn't quite as bad with Titanforging, but with it being gone, it really rears its ugly head.
    The problem mostly stemms from the archaic system of raiding though. As you could see, gearing in 9.0 was many times easier via PvP, which also uses a different approach to Raids with their weekly lockout and rigit (large) group requirements. If m+ wouldn't exist the alternative to that would just be shitty PvP grinding. The problem is simply that all these gearing systems are fundamentally different and having them in the same design space results in conflicts.
    Last edited by Felis igneus; 2021-08-22 at 10:32 PM.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  16. #5716
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    No, the reason why Timeless Isle was popular is that it came at the end of easily one of the worst patches in the game's history, Escalation, and was not-dailies at the end of an expansion of endless dailies. It was also the first iteration of "effortlessly gear your alts via endlessly dropping tokens" which made its otherwise redundant and boring content extremely rewarding to the majority of the playerbase. Realistically it WAS mandatory for most players because most players had an alt or six for whom the gear was an upgrade and by far the easiest method of getting better gear.
    I played MOP from end to start, and dailies were only mandatory until you reached exalted. Valor could be earned through many means, raids included. Isle of Thunder, Escalation Barrens, and Timeless Isle were all mostly optional content with cosmetic stuff on them, these zones were meant to tell the story behind the upcoming raid, not keep the players like hamsters running inside the wheel endlessly. But changing topics to the catch-up mechanic, back then we had the nerf on old raids and I remember doing Mogushan, Heart of Fear, and Throne of Thunder to gear alts, sure Timeless Isle was a more efficient way to gear alts but wasn't the only way, but back to main I couldn't care less about Timeless Isle.

    Now tell me, can I get Valor from raids in Shadowlands? There's any nerf mechanic to encourage people to run old raids for gear? Can I get done with dailies in a month or two like in Mists of Pandaria?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Warforging was born out of iterative development on secondary gear systems. I'm not sure why you think Blizzard decided on it "a couple expansions ago" when it is literally a system from mid-MoP
    Yeah, it was from Mists of Pandaria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    it was not implemented to void BiS, but rather so that people in BiS for a raid wouldn't feel like running a raid was completely worthless to them because there was nothing of value able to drop, since instead they'd have a small chance at getting and even better version of their equipped BiS item.
    If there's a better version of the item you're using available then what you're using isn't the BiS. Warforged-Titanforged versions were the BiS gear, and Blizzard made it because they hated the fact that many people only did raids until their teams were full BiS, which happened most of the time before the next patch was released making sub dropping. So, to avoid this in Shadowlands, now that Warforged is gone, they removed/reduced many loot drop sources to make sure people will take longer to get the BiS gear anyway.
    Azeroth must be remastered!

  17. #5717
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    I would absolutely rethink this decision if so. While I understand not wanting to have another mouth to feed & that a new class means permanent extra work to figure out abilities/balance, I feel that without a new class the game somewhat tends to stagnate. A new class brings in new playstyles, new options for how to run content, new strengths/weaknesses to look at in PvP & PvE, as well as a lot of player excitement. Imagine a pet-based healing class or something along the playstyle lines of Spellblade Aluriel which has both melee & ranged parts to the spec. There is a reason IMO that the expansions most fondly remembered (BC, WotLK, Mists, Legion) all featured a new class for each faction to play with.
    I can understand that Blizzard might not want to add a new class in times like these, but at the same time new gameplay is also great. I think it might be good to focus the resources that would go towards a new class towards balancing/reworking some of the underperforming classes in the game, seeing that class balance issues are a big deal right now (though this isn't unique to SL). A reworked class can be as good as a new class, especially to the people who have had to main a broken class for an expansion or more.

  18. #5718
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Yes, they do.
    Everyday when you go and return from work.
    Ok
    That’s on me
    I should have seen that coming

    - - - Updated - - -

    Reprinting some books
    Including those with dragon lore

    Tinfoil hat
    10.0 dragon isles

  19. #5719
    Thank you. I haven't sat in on any pitch meetings myself, but from what I hear it is impossible to sell an idea without being able to tie them to metrics / KPIs. Player engagement matters because engagement can be measured and really for no other reason. Unfortunately, "fun" cannot be quantified.

  20. #5720
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Ok
    That’s on me
    I should have seen that coming

    - - - Updated - - -

    Reprinting some books
    Including those with dragon lore

    Tinfoil hat
    10.0 dragon isles
    My problem is why should we need the help of the dragons? Now after we dealt with Freezer of the Afterlife on Titan level? They totally messed up the power scaling with shadowlands. We killed a titan-level eternal one in castle nathria. And the jailor will prbly be killed in the last pacth who is also an eternal one, prbly also with a huuuge power boost now that he has the orb.
    Dragon isles only if they do some sort of planet reshaping/world revamp.
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

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