1. #57461
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I just love the fact that in no way shape or form do they want to confirm 3 Major Patches due to the legality issues of them confirming it and then not being able to deliver it when they Cut & Run again due to being given the mandate of the community to Cut & Run after 10.2.
    There is no legality issue. They didn't even face legal troubles when the box for WotLK had a feature that was cut before launch of the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #57462
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is no legality issue. They didn't even face legal troubles when the box for WotLK had a feature that was cut before launch of the game.
    Well, I am glad I can use that talking point then.

    Doesn't make it less bad in the view of the product though. No confirmation on that side of things is as bad faith as can be in a game where traditions are the only thing that you can hold onto for guidance of the upcoming products and the content within said products.

    I have zero confidence they will ship 3 Major Patches anymore and the best part is that there will be an incredible amount of people who will come back at me with the got'cha when they ship 3 Major Patches for Dragonflight as if the company doesn't now in the current moment have the mandate to ship less content to the consumer by the virtues of traditionalism which again is a sketch deal for the consumer in the end to invest in.

    But yeah, again I find this whole period extremely odd. The lack of preorders on Reveal and all of this weird set up while still feeling like they got another embargo ahead. Its' all odd.

    If anything the interviews tell a whole different story on the state of the product than what the game director want to express the state of product to be in and well with time ticking it sure doesn't seem like they've got this under lock and load as they seem to intend for people to believe.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 06:30 PM.
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  3. #57463
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I have to assume at this point that something has been delayed. Otherwise the only reason I can see for this silence is that Blizzard is stretching the content they can give to its absolute limits in order to ensure a smoother drought.
    Do you seriously think month of no Dragonflight news after reveal + big interview campaign is sign that something is delayed? Why people always act like it's their first expansion? Not to mention there is still one SL patch to go that is focus right now.

  4. #57464
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    Doesn't make it less bad in the view of the product though. No confirmation on that side of things is as bad faith as can be in a game where traditions are the only thing that you can hold onto for guidance of the upcoming products and the content within said products.
    Are you new to WoW? They have never given 100% certainty on anything they have talked about so it is a bit strange to use that as something now. It really just seems like you are looking for any reason to manufacture outrage.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #57465
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Are you new to WoW? They have never given 100% certainty on anything they have talked about so it is a bit strange to use that as something now. It really just seems like you are looking for any reason to manufacture outrage.
    Okay, well I don't think thats a healthy thing for consumers to deal with. If anything this whole concept is bad when they break those traditions. If the consumer has lost the standard that the developer provided it becomes imperative for them to restore the standard of which the product consists of to the consumer. I don't really think this is an illogical ask.

    If the product cannot be questioned then it should have standards to abide by and if those standards are broken that's a huge problem because they are the quantifiable metric of what the consumer receives when they put in a purchase of the product.

    The fact that the developers are non committal is not some sort of logical decision made with good intentions it has a purpose and intent of which you've relayed to me just now by making the "you new or what" argument as if I don't fucking know how this company operates.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 06:46 PM.
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  6. #57466
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Do you seriously think month of no Dragonflight news after reveal + big interview campaign is sign that something is delayed? Why people always act like it's their first expansion? Not to mention there is still one SL patch to go that is focus right now.
    Because it's still a month wait for what the developers said would be a quick turnover.
    Usually this is mitigated because we have more info to go on with Blizzcon, as well as the last patch of the relevant expansion being around the corner.

    The fact that Ion said, and then confirmed that the expansion is very far along, as well as stating that they want to give us more info as soon as possible does make it weird that they have not said anything yet.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #57467
    I mean I still believe there's another embargo with info which consists of more customizations and the allied race and the future of Allied Races. But, IDK. Again, this expansion hinges on the World Content Team doing an insane job since there's not additional content seemingly in other departments.

    I worry a lot about the post-launch state of community feedback if the World Content Team does not accomplish their role well and what direction the game might take with that feedback.

    Honestly, I still believe that they are going to emulate the Legion post-launch timeline but at the same time I worry about the situation with employees leaving after the product is shipped. It will be interesting to see what shape the post-launch environment takes this time around. Again, hopefully they can actually accomplish a great post-launch content schedule due to the bare nature of the base product.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 07:01 PM.
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  8. #57468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because it's still a month wait for what the developers said would be a quick turnover.
    Usually this is mitigated because we have more info to go on with Blizzcon, as well as the last patch of the relevant expansion being around the corner.

    The fact that Ion said, and then confirmed that the expansion is very far along, as well as stating that they want to give us more info as soon as possible does make it weird that they have not said anything yet.
    Patience is key, we'll know soon enough.
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  9. #57469
    Again from the interviews, either the World Content Team will put a lot of content in the game or they have made the product as bare as possible for a great Legion Style Content Lineup post-launch and on schedule to get back in the groove of things.

    Unless there's extreme amounts of content that will be datamined on first unencryptable builds, I get the vibe that this is a foundational expansion on which to build something great for the next expansion and considering the lore hints so far with 11.0 it seems to build into the whole concept of a World Revamp. But, again whether that actually plays out or if we're instead headed for Light vs Void Invasion on Azeroth expansion remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 07:01 PM.
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  10. #57470
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I mean I still believe there's another embargo with info which consists of more customizations and the allied race and the future of Allied Races. But, IDK. Again, this expansion hinges on the World Content Team doing an insane job since there's not additional content seemingly in other departments.

    I worry a lot about the post-launch state of community feedback if the World Content Team does not accomplish their role well and what direction the game might take with that feedback.

    Honestly, I still believe that they are going to emulate the Legion post-launch timeline but at the same time I worry about the situation with employees leaving after the product is shipped. It will be interesting to see what shape the post-launch environment takes this time around. Again, hopefully they can actually accomplish a great post-launch content schedule due to the bare nature of the base product.
    Surely the expansion hinges on whether Blizzard manages to revitalize the talent and profession system.
    Seems to me like this is another Legion where it will live or die on its improvements rather than grand innovations.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #57471
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Do you seriously think month of no Dragonflight news after reveal + big interview campaign is sign that something is delayed? Why people always act like it's their first expansion? Not to mention there is still one SL patch to go that is focus right now.
    Considering the Dragonflight reveal was already 5 months later than it should have been? Yes.

    That and the media coverage of Overwatch 2 has been unanimously "Why wasn't this just a patch?" the hypetrain has been derailed, the conductor has been arrested & the passengers are suing for damages.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2022-05-18 at 07:12 PM.

  12. #57472
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Surely the expansion hinges on whether Blizzard manages to revitalize the talent and profession system.
    Seems to me like this is another Legion where it will live or die on its improvements rather than grand innovations.
    I mean I think the Talent System is fine and I hope it stays that way and the development team focuses their efforts on putting game content into the game rather working knobs on number tuning that at the end of the day is not visible to the enduser in the slightest. Talent System is fine as what the Class Team tunes but keep it that way alongside abilities.

    I think the fact that the Profession Revamp is basically just the Second Associate Game Directors weird pet project, again I think he fails to understand why Armorsmithing, Weaponsmithing and Different Scale Leatherworking was fun. The whole idea of putting those things into a talent tree rather than out in the world for exploration and training is again failure of understanding the genre of the game. (although the narrative of "simplicity above all" has been very key to why Modern WoW became a instanced queue-based game) But, again I am happy that it is at least returning in a capacity even if it just happens to be with a button press on a talent tree.

    Again, I don't really believe the Profession Revamp is anything but a resource hog. They can't revitalize the Profession System due to the Massive Influx of Gold from the Warlords of Draenor expansion and they also have set it up to be the fastest way to gear out new characters for new players in which those players will be incentivized to get the gold from WoW Tokens and also get the reagents from Reagent boosts. Again, I am happy that he got the opportunity to finally do it properly rather than the WoD Style revamp.

    But, again I don't see much value in it as again the era of Professions mattering on the player character is over due to the lack of Server Identity and due to the Cross-Realm nature of Modern World of Warcraft. You can't really stand out as a crafter due to the structure of the game and the server infrastructure changes that has taken place over the past few decades.


    Again, I think the main key focus for them should be on a good post-launch content lineup that feels fresh with new additions while it also comes in on a 77 day timeline per content patch. The other important note for me is the World Content Team and seeing what is the outcome of their work and to see how the community reacts to them and whether that can go down into a negativity spiral about the necessity of Borrowed Power and other systems again.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 07:20 PM.
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  13. #57473
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because it's still a month wait for what the developers said would be a quick turnover.
    Usually this is mitigated because we have more info to go on with Blizzcon, as well as the last patch of the relevant expansion being around the corner.

    The fact that Ion said, and then confirmed that the expansion is very far along, as well as stating that they want to give us more info as soon as possible does make it weird that they have not said anything yet.
    Ion said they want to share talent trees before Alpha. It's not like they will shower you with something new every week because there is no Blizzcon. And Blizzard didn't said anything specific beside "it's far along" which means nothing specific. Most of us expect Q1 2023 for release day. So far everything we have (9.2.5 progress, 10.0 vendor build) looks like fit for this schedule.

    Beside tress (I hope trees for all 12 existing classes), next step is testing. And for that we need 9.2.5 done. They won't make "zone x preview" blue posts or "dractyr preview" weeks before it's available on Alpha.

  14. #57474
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    The fact that the developers are non committal is not some sort of logical decision made with good intentions it has a purpose and intent of which you've relayed to me just now by making the "you new or what" argument as if I don't fucking know how this company operates.
    So you know how the company operates but still manufacture outrage over the way they've always operated. I'm also pretty sure no one has bought an expansion just because it has had 3 raid tiers or the promise of 3 raid tiers. It also is a poor metric because Blizzard has done "non-tier" raids a few different times when they felt like it.
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  15. #57475
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you know how the company operates but still manufacture outrage over the way they've always operated. I'm also pretty sure no one has bought an expansion just because it has had 3 raid tiers or the promise of 3 raid tiers. It also is a poor metric because Blizzard has done "non-tier" raids a few different times when they felt like it.
    I mean I was talking about Major Content Patches, but again you're off in your own lane which is fine. It's just very obvious that you're operating in bad faith.

    Again, the problem for me is I can't attack the argument on the consumers decision of buying a World of Warcraft expansion. There's no real info on what motivates people to masochistically return every 2 years for the same realization that the company is awful to you and has no interest in maintaining its' product and have standards about it while operating in a market which it can't really compete in which is the short session based instanced queue game that it has become.

    Fundamentally, I still believe that a portion of consumers want to have assurance that they are buying what has traditionally been associated with the product outside of when the company has cold shouldered the consumers by cutting the game short during difficult periods (WoD, Shadowlands).

    But again, I don't know and there's no data on what keeps people coming back to buying a product that has no actual blurb about what the product consists of at launch and over its life span and how this is 100% totally acceptable.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 07:42 PM.
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  16. #57476
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    We don't need to overanalyze the lack of a third raid tier. I wanted one yes and it is legit disappointing but I don't need to turn into crazy cynicism over it. Just be patient, find something else to do until we get more news.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  17. #57477
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I mean I was talking about Major Content Patches, but again you're off in your own lane which is fine. It's just very obvious that you're operating in bad faith.

    Blizzard has never confirmed the amount of major content patches though. It just usually followed 3 post launch raid tiers with story elements mixed in between or nothing. I'm not operating in bad faith here. You are. Because you are trying anything you can think of time to be negative about things. Including some high level philosophy about consumer rights when you choose to partake in a product that has never met those ideals.

    It is even better how you say you can't attack the argument when your entire argument was that not knowing about how many content patches is anti-consumer. So I guess you don't know what is and is not anti-consumer if you don't even know what "traditions" motivates WoW players, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #57478
    I mean I still believe there's more embargoes ahead of us that will illuminate and have huge positives for the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Blizzard has never confirmed the amount of major content patches though. It just usually followed 3 post launch raid tiers with story elements mixed in between or nothing. I'm not operating in bad faith here. You are. Because you are trying anything you can think of time to be negative about things. Including some high level philosophy about consumer rights when you choose to partake in a product that has never met those ideals.

    It is even better how you say you can't attack the argument when your entire argument was that not knowing about how many content patches is anti-consumer. So I guess you don't know what is and is not anti-consumer if you don't even know what "traditions" motivates WoW players, right?
    Again, Blizzard is doing so under the belief that people like you will defend the decision of not providing answers to the consumer on what they are buying. Well, I mean you just confirmed that the product was never going to partake in the consumerist ideals which means again that the developer is not operating at the best interest of the consumer and again you being bothered enough to come here with your unfettered capitalist takes about how having any standards is bad because consumers are willingly walking to the slaughterhouse while the suits laugh and take the money to the bank.

    On the second part, fundamentally I don't know what motivates consumers to return to the product of World of Warcraft in its current anti-consumer state nor why people continue to engage $60-$80 + sub fee with it. I don't really care too much that people do it, I just find it odd considering how bad faith the company is operating in. (Especially with the current Game Director consistently lying and consistently throwing out ideas that Dragonflight isn't a on the backfoot expansion trying to find some steady foundation after 2 bad expansions in a row and instead is "far along" and "soon ready for testing" with a Q1 release date that beggars on belief with the timeline and structure they're working around internally.)

    I don't really think its' a got'cha like you believe it to be. I definitely know what is anti-consumer, I just don't know what motivates the audience to continue consuming a product in which they don't even know what it consists of. Again, I don't really think thats as problematic as you make it out to be. I can have two thoughts that differ from another beyond becoming an attack vector for you to dissect so you can put a gold star on your chest.

    Regardless, you bore me and your defense of a billion dollar company of which not only bothers consumers but also employees is just again not really that interesting to me.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-05-18 at 07:57 PM.
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  19. #57479
    I am Murloc! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I don't really think its' a got'cha like you believe it to be. I definitely know what is anti-consumer, I just don't know what motivates the audience to continue consuming a product in which they don't even know what it consists of. Again, I don't really think thats as problematic as you make it out to be. I can have two thoughts that differ from another beyond becoming an attack vector for you to dissect so you can put a gold star on your chest.

    Regardless, you bore me and your defense of a billion dollar company of which not only bothers consumers but also employees is just again not really that interesting to me.
    This hilarious and morally "superior" take would maybe hold some ground, if not for the fact it comes from the guy who repeatedly said in the past that he can't wait for WoW to fail and to see people burned.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  20. #57480
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Because it's still a month wait for what the developers said would be a quick turnover.
    Usually this is mitigated because we have more info to go on with Blizzcon, as well as the last patch of the relevant expansion being around the corner.

    The fact that Ion said, and then confirmed that the expansion is very far along, as well as stating that they want to give us more info as soon as possible does make it weird that they have not said anything yet.
    Probably waiting until Q3 to drop the beta info and pre-order to smooth out their lull in the fiscal year. At least that's the impression that I got since it was missing from the announcement.

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