1. #57621
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    9.2 was awesome though? We finally got back Sylvanas and honestly, the Zereth Mortis lore is actually quite cool. And! They didn't killed off beloved characters. The only bad thing about Shadowlands was the content draughts and the lack of exploration of Zoovals background. Funnily enough, the ending was implied from the start - Sylvanas always said they are doing this for the bigger good, so no clue why people are suddenly surprised. Yes, the Sepulcher finale was too short and missed an epilogue but we got that with the Judgement of Sylvie and we also had the awesome Anduin cinematic a week before.

    Btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Danuser actually saved Aszhara from getting killed off. Afrasiabi seemed to like to kill any cool characters afterall.
    I respect your opinions, and I'm glad you enjoyed it but.. Let's just say much of what you enjoyed wasn't popular with the community.

  2. #57622
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Garrosh? GARROSH? Garrosh had a good story in Cataclysm, true. MoP completely raped his character though just to make him a villain. WoD did manage to redeem his character just to get him killed off though.
    No, his character wasn't ruined. His character went the way it should of. It could of gone different but the signs were already there in Wrath.


    Don't take words out of my mouth, I never said he was a "writing god".
    And I'm not gonna stop using copium, even if it is overused.
    You implied it with how you spoke.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-05-14 at 03:11 PM.
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  3. #57623
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No, his character wasn't ruined. His character went the way it should of. It could of gone different but the signs were already there in Wrath.
    Really for all that I enjoy Stonetalon Garrosh, the Garrosh that challenged Thrall to a Mak'gora instead of attempting any actual discussion back in the Wrath pre-event, the one who completely discounted Saurfang in Borean Tundra and who was in every zone other than Stonetalon in Cata is the same Garrosh of MoP.

  4. #57624
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Really for all that I enjoy Stonetalon Garrosh, the Garrosh that challenged Thrall to a Mak'gora instead of attempting any actual discussion back in the Wrath pre-event, the one who completely discounted Saurfang in Borean Tundra and who was in every zone other than Stonetalon in Cata is the same Garrosh of MoP.
    That's the thing with Stonetalon Garrosh. He's the outlier characterization. Mind you, that could have been the watershed moment that lead them to a different path, but the fact that wasn't followed through, nor resonates with his later -or former- characterization frames it more as a narrative false step.

    It's pretty telling of WoW's narrative cohesion that different writers hold very different versions of the characters and that there's a serious lack of an overseeing editor role.

    Thing is, it's not that uncommon on comic books, and I really feels like WoW borrows, more than anything, from those types of narratives. Different creators with different versions of the characters that conflict each other, with characterizations and motivations that come across as isolated and lacking a cohesive, unified vision.

  5. #57625
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's the thing with Stonetalon Garrosh. He's the outlier characterization. Mind you, that could have been the watershed moment that lead them to a different path, but the fact that wasn't followed through, nor resonates with his later -or former- characterization frames it more as a narrative false step.

    It's pretty telling of WoW's narrative cohesion that different writers hold very different versions of the characters and that there's a serious lack of an overseeing editor role.

    Thing is, it's not that uncommon on comic books, and I really feels like WoW borrows, more than anything, from those types of narratives. Different creators with different versions of the characters that conflict each other, with characterizations and motivations that come across as isolated and lacking a cohesive, unified vision.
    I think it probably just shows how poor the oversight is when it comes to lore. Compare it to other fantasy fiction franchises and you can see it's problematic.

  6. #57626
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No, his character wasn't ruined. His character went the way it should of. It could of gone different but the signs were already there in Wrath.
    That applies to Sylvanas too, yet people still claim Afrasiabi ruined her. Her fall from grace was in the works from the start.

  7. #57627
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's the thing with Stonetalon Garrosh. He's the outlier characterization. Mind you, that could have been the watershed moment that lead them to a different path, but the fact that wasn't followed through, nor resonates with his later -or former- characterization frames it more as a narrative false step.

    It's pretty telling of WoW's narrative cohesion that different writers hold very different versions of the characters and that there's a serious lack of an overseeing editor role.

    Thing is, it's not that uncommon on comic books, and I really feels like WoW borrows, more than anything, from those types of narratives. Different creators with different versions of the characters that conflict each other, with characterizations and motivations that come across as isolated and lacking a cohesive, unified vision.
    Also worth noting that according to old interviews, Stonetalon Garrosh was apparently by Afrasiabi, the team had some sort of miscommunication and they then settled on making him more villainous.

  8. #57628
    Quote Originally Posted by SloidVoid View Post
    That applies to Sylvanas too, yet people still claim Afrasiabi ruined her. Her fall from grace was in the works from the start.
    That's objectively untrue. You don't "hold off" on a storyline for 20 years. Nothing in Shadowlands was "in the works from the start." We've had 3 different creative teams on this franchise since then.

  9. #57629
    Where is Umbric?

  10. #57630
    Still holding on to hope that we get more Mag'har characters, just someone that isn't terribly dull like the current leader.

  11. #57631
    Pit Lord boyzma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bsirk View Post
    Where is Umbric?
    Umbric is on first.

  12. #57632
    Quote Originally Posted by SloidVoid View Post
    That applies to Sylvanas too, yet people still claim Afrasiabi ruined her. Her fall from grace was in the works from the start.
    Yep.

    Garrosh, in Cataclysm: You're like the Lich King, Sylvanas!

    Horde players, in BfA: Whaaaa, Sylvanas is mass-raising the dead??? *shocked Pikachu face*

  13. #57633
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Really for all that I enjoy Stonetalon Garrosh, the Garrosh that challenged Thrall to a Mak'gora instead of attempting any actual discussion back in the Wrath pre-event, the one who completely discounted Saurfang in Borean Tundra and who was in every zone other than Stonetalon in Cata is the same Garrosh of MoP.
    I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

    Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

    And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

    People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.

  14. #57634
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

    Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

    And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

    People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.
    All of Theramore wasn't going to do that, it was just some of them on their own doing their own thing(In durotar). But yes in general I agree, Garrosh was always Garrosh.
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  15. #57635
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yep.

    Garrosh, in Cataclysm: You're like the Lich King, Sylvanas!

    Horde players, in BfA: Whaaaa, Sylvanas is mass-raising the dead??? *shocked Pikachu face*
    Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

    That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra

  16. #57636
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

    That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra
    Your attempt at damage control fails because the Argent Crusade, who are objectively good guys, also thought that the Forsaken were acting like the Scourge.

    Face it, back when they were led by Sylvanas, no one liked the Forsaken. The Alliance hated them, the rest of the Horde also hated them and kept them as allies only for strategic value, and pretty much everyone sane and good on Azeroth was either wary of them or wanted them gone.

    It's such a miserable and despicable existence that Sylvanas herself, their leader, committed suicide as soon as she had her revenge, and came back only because she didn't want to stay in Hell. That's what the Forsaken are. They are such a cursed race, that their leader's first thought after her quest was done was literally to kill herself and be free of that miserable existence.

    But under Calia, the Forsaken will finally enter an age where the Alliance and Horde will no longer be (rightfully) terrified of them, and that is an improvement.

    People in-universe aren't nearly as terrified, hateful, and resentful of Alleria and the Ren'dorei as they were of the Forsaken. The only guy who complains about the Void elves, literally, is Lor'themar Theron, and he's a random nerd.

  17. #57637
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post

    People in-universe aren't nearly as terrified, hateful, and resentful of Alleria and the Ren'dorei as they were of the Forsaken. The only guy who complains about the Void elves, literally, is Lor'themar Theron, and he's a random nerd.
    Just call them void elves to start with. Only nerds call them ren dorei. They are just not important man.

    Atleast people know who lorte mar is. Umbric is still who?.?

  18. #57638
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

    Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

    And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

    People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.
    There was no way that bomb would be set off and NOT kill civilians. He could have bombed the bridge or the harbor, instead he went for the keep. Either he did not care about killing civilians which would make him inconsistent with Stonetalon Garrosh or he's a moron.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

    That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra
    Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?

  19. #57639
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?
    No. None of the points make much sense. Garrosh may be an ass, but that doesn't mean he can't be right about things. Void Elves and Undead are not "biologically the same thing" - most Undead are not Elves. And the magic that animates the Undead doesn't fall under biology anyway, so i'm not sure what the point there is to begin with.

    Not sure where the thing about Calia comes from, either, or how she could "use" Saa'ra.

  20. #57640
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

    Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

    And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

    People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.
    Because he is an outlier. Afrasiabi was in charge of Stonetalon, and deliberately wrote him differently from a way that the narrative team at the time didn't want as a whole. I will admit I liked Stonetalon Garrosh (even if Afrasiabi is a rapist pos and tried to deliberately tank every female character and anything he didn't like: see Teldrassil), but it did lead to a big disconnect from everywhere else he is presented.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    9.2 was awesome though? We finally got back Sylvanas and honestly, the Zereth Mortis lore is actually quite cool. And! They didn't killed off beloved characters. The only bad thing about Shadowlands was the content draughts and the lack of exploration of Zoovals background. Funnily enough, the ending was implied from the start - Sylvanas always said they are doing this for the bigger good, so no clue why people are suddenly surprised. Yes, the Sepulcher finale was too short and missed an epilogue but we got that with the Judgement of Sylvie and we also had the awesome Anduin cinematic a week before.

    Btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Danuser actually saved Aszhara from getting killed off. Afrasiabi seemed to like to kill any cool characters afterall.
    Yeah, as far as I can tell 9.2 is basically the new team 'picking up the pieces' of what Afrasiabi tried to ruin. I'm very interested to see what else they can do to try and heal over those wounds, from some of what we've datamined about 9.2.5, and eager to likewise see where Dragonflight goes.

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