1. #6381
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

  2. #6382
    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaKirana View Post
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.
    Which is your preference - adding some kind of inherent gameplay to mounts, or only functionally being able to use them for half of an expansion's lifespan?

  3. #6383
    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaKirana View Post
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.
    It's not making about making it complicated, it's adding even the most basic level of skill to use it.
    To go back to the Sandbox comparision, flying a jet in GTA is not difficult, it might take a couple of attempts to get absolutely right, but if you want it is a mechanic you can get good at. There is a vast stretch between being able to take off in that game and being able to fly between high-rise buildings.

    In WoW the flying mechanics are nonexistent. At best you can learn gimmicks or get better at mouse aim moving to shave a second or two off of a flight, but unlike pretty much every other game that has flight its woefully one-dimensional and boring.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #6384
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaKirana View Post
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.
    I'd rather they have some complexity and are engaging, than encourage you to alt-tab out of the game while your character auto runs at the speed of sound, 2k yards above sea lvl, avoiding any and every mob and terrain feature, which might as well not exist.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!


  5. #6385
    If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

    I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.
    Last edited by Nagawithlegs; 2021-08-30 at 03:59 PM.

  6. #6386
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

    I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.
    You cannot design a game for those who don't want to engage in it though. It might be somewhat acceptable if the thing the players are avoiding is ancilliary to the main game, but this is World of Warcraft, it's supposed to have an engaging open world, and if flying is detrimental to that experience then Blizzard devs have a right to put their foot down and say that you have to accept it.

    You wouldnt play a CoD game expecting to never shoot a gun, nor would you play a proper RPG without being railroaded at times.
    If the section in question is integral to the game then you cannot just ask the developers to let you skip it, that would go against the entire point.

    If someone just wants to raid and pretty much nothing else then the game is still allowed to put a minimum amount of effort required to get to that stage, just as all games are obliged to put a minimum amount of effort to get to the juicy bit.


    Besides, this isnt even about removing flying completely. It's about recognizing that the current iteration of flying we have doesnt integrate well into the game at all, and that we should get a revamp of it so it can be less of an "IWIN" button, and more of a movement mechanic.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #6387
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You cannot design a game for those who don't want to engage in it though. It might be somewhat acceptable if the thing the players are avoiding is ancilliary to the main game, but this is World of Warcraft, it's supposed to have an engaging open world, and if flying is detrimental to that experience then Blizzard devs have a right to put their foot down and say that you have to accept it.

    You wouldnt play a CoD game expecting to never shoot a gun, nor would you play a proper RPG without being railroaded at times.
    If the section in question is integral to the game then you cannot just ask the developers to let you skip it, that would go against the entire point.

    If someone just wants to raid and pretty much nothing else then the game is still allowed to put a minimum amount of effort required to get to that stage, just as all games are obliged to put a minimum amount of effort to get to the juicy bit.


    Besides, this isnt even about removing flying completely. It's about recognizing that the current iteration of flying we have doesnt integrate well into the game at all, and that we should get a revamp of it so it can be less of an "IWIN" button, and more of a movement mechanic.
    I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.

  8. #6388
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.
    I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.

  9. #6389
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.
    Pretty much. Blizzard cannot remove flying completely, if only because some zones need it to function, and there is a massive library of flying mounts that wouldnt be used, but if we hadnt gotten flying back in 6.2 then Blizzard would have needed to actually look at how to reintroduce flying in a way that doesnt have the same inherent flaws as it does. However they ended up caving, which not only made the playerbase expect it back with reneved vigor, but also made it less likely Blizzard will remake it seeing as they already have a compromise solution.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #6390
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.
    But housing isn't a good feature, and flying isn't working.

  11. #6391
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.
    So WoD then? With customizable player housing that has your pets wander around, and a stable for your pets and all that fun stuff?
    Player housing would be great if it was made perfectly, but there isnt really any proof that we would get that version, it's more likely we would get Garrisons 2.0 instead.

    Flying meanwhile doesnt integrate into the game at all, and the compromise solution we have now doesnt actually satisfy either camp. Those that want flying doesnt get it while its relevant, and those that want better focus on open world content has to see it butchered once flying is introduced.

    A flying revamp could finally give a better compromise. One that allows flying to be available from day one, but also doesnt inherently undercut most of the open-world gameplay.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #6392
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So WoD then? With customizable player housing that has your pets wander around, and a stable for your pets and all that fun stuff?
    Player housing would be great if it was made perfectly, but there isnt really any proof that we would get that version, it's more likely we would get Garrisons 2.0 instead.

    Flying meanwhile doesnt integrate into the game at all, and the compromise solution we have now doesnt actually satisfy either camp. Those that want flying doesnt get it while its relevant, and those that want better focus on open world content has to see it butchered once flying is introduced.

    A flying revamp could finally give a better compromise. One that allows flying to be available from day one, but also doesnt inherently undercut most of the open-world gameplay.
    More like Valheim but brought into WoW. But yeah, I would love it if my pets could run around my house (but maybe let me choose which ones). Same goes for a stable - but only if I can customize it 100%.

    Just imagine how cool this could be:



  13. #6393
    Considering how many furniture and prop doodads already exist in WoW and can be reused for housing, I don't think a housing system would be that insane.

    It would NOT be multi-phased-neighborhood like XIV though so people would definitely make that comparison. At the same time it would likely not have the ridiculous housing payment system XIV has so there's that too.

  14. #6394
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So WoD then?
    No, not like wod.
    More like ESO, FF14, SWTOR, BDO, etc.

    You know, games with actual player housing.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!


  15. #6395
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    No, not like wod.
    More like ESO, FF14, SWTOR, BDO, etc.

    You know, games with actual player housing.
    Just mention furniture. WoD didn't let you place furniture, all those games do.

    You just need a phased area you own and can place and move decorations in. That's it.

  16. #6396
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

    I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.
    I feel like they've outright said that before. That one reason is so as not to cheapen the Art Team's work by having you just fly over all their hard work.
    WoW has Cancer. First you cut out the cancer (abusive devs), then you assign an aggressive treatment plan (major design rework) to save it.

    Or you just let it die because that's too expensive.

    FFXIV - Crystal Datacenter

  17. #6397
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I feel like they've outright said that before. That one reason is so as not to cheapen the Art Team's work by having you just fly over all their hard work.
    It's not just art, there are developers dedicated to designign the way the zone is laid out, where enemies are situated, shortcuts and neat secrets every so often that is straight up just not a factor at all when flying is used.

    What is afterall the point of artists spending time and effort on their jobs, using their education and experience crafting the world if players just end up demanding the ability to auto-run, then alt tab out of the game for a bit while the game flies you over painlessly.

    It is basically the same thing as everyone having teh ability to instantly kill any boss they have killed before. Sure you get that one good attempt, but good luck trying to prevent players from abusing that going forwards. And good luck having developers keep up enthusiasm if players insist the ability isnt just something they prefer, it's something they seem to genuinely believe is good for the game.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #6398
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

    I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.
    I'm sure they want that, but that's not a good reason to let them have it.

  19. #6399
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not just art, there are developers dedicated to designign the way the zone is laid out, where enemies are situated, shortcuts and neat secrets every so often that is straight up just not a factor at all when flying is used.

    What is afterall the point of artists spending time and effort on their jobs, using their education and experience crafting the world if players just end up demanding the ability to auto-run, then alt tab out of the game for a bit while the game flies you over painlessly.

    It is basically the same thing as everyone having teh ability to instantly kill any boss they have killed before. Sure you get that one good attempt, but good luck trying to prevent players from abusing that going forwards. And good luck having developers keep up enthusiasm if players insist the ability isnt just something they prefer, it's something they seem to genuinely believe is good for the game.
    Sometimes I honestly wonder if WoW going F2P would be the right call. People are starting to feel really really really really like "this isn't worth $15 if you don't listen to me!", so going F2P so that it's straight up "the people who give us the most money wiill be the ones listened to" would be a good way to weed out people.

  20. #6400
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Sometimes I honestly wonder if WoW going F2P would be the right call. People are starting to feel really really really really like "this isn't worth $15 if you don't listen to me!", so going F2P so that it's straight up "the people who give us the most money wiill be the ones listened to" would be a good way to weed out people.
    The problem with that option is the optics of it. There isnt a single F2P MMO that is considered succesful outside maybe Runescape. There are ones with a fanbase, but to the consumer an MMO going from a subscription to F2P would overwhelmingly be seen as the developers abandoning it.
    Besides, the game has to generate revenue somewho, and I doubt the current in-game shop generates enough cash to keep the game going at a reasonable pace, not to mention that while new expansions are massive revenue sources it's still only a short spike once every 2 years.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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