1. #6381
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I completely disagree with that. There are plenty of ways around flying for the very few minor things that would be disturbed by it. The vast majority is just farming, which should simply be addressed by nerfing that damned sky golem (and druids) into the ground. The main purpose of the overworld is questing and at endgame to do WQs, and there it's just wasting more of our time getting around, to the point that they have to pepper the zones with flight points awkwardly standing alone in the middle of nowhere.

    It seems like you desperately try to sacifice flying because you somehow think it's the big thing that is stopping your precious would revamp. The few treasures could be handled in a differnt manner like the Revendreth/Korthia puzzles as well as more indoor locations.
    The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
    The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

    A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
    Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

    Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.
    It most definitely is. It's a new and shiny concept art and in-game renders they can use as centerpieces of any reveal.
    Unless Blizzard seriously considers being able to skip the Maw intro sequence a more exciting feature then heritage armor is unlikely to be in the patch.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #6382
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.
    If they are hiding it it’s probably because they didn’t want to spoil the first content list with people going “bloo bloo why not MY race”. Or it’s a reveal today.

  3. #6383
    Brewmaster Gifdwarf's Avatar
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    Doubt the PTR will be today but who knows, could be a nice surprise if they're eager to get it out fast.

  4. #6384
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
    The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

    A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
    Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

    Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.
    If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

    You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
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  5. #6385
    I never played GW2 much but didn't that game have a nice flying system? As far as I'm aware (I could be totally wrong here) they had restrictions put in place on flight itself, rather than just outright removing it as a feature like WoW tried to do.

    At this point you really can't remove flying, it's too integral to the playerbase. I say this as someone who is completely ambivalent towards this issue. You'd need to look at the flight mechanic itself and limit it in some way that solves the core issues with flying in regards to affecting the world design and also probably getting rid of pathfinder as a trade-off as well.

  6. #6386
    Brewmaster Gifdwarf's Avatar
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    I don't even think flight needs to be limited, with the Dragon Isles potentially being flying islands, you can add some really cool verticality to the zones. Also, I think flying should be in the .0 patch or the .1 patch at the latest, because once you are max level for a few weeks you experienced all there is to experience on the ground. Which is why I like the renown reward version of flying, it just needed to come sooner.

  7. #6387
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

    You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..
    Not really, a ground mount just makes you faster but it does not allow you to completely skip over ground content.

    You still have to navigate around terrain and the enemies in it.
    Not to mention that certain mobs have stun and slow mechanics or just straight up daze and dismount you.

    Excluding flying, they are not the most superior travel option either.
    If you need to travel long distances you'd take a portal or FP instead, and if the zone has accessible elevation, Gliders are vastly more superior than mounts.

    And for very short distances, i would definitely say its a lot more worthwhile to just angelic feather/hook/blink/jump, etc. over than spend 1.5 seconds mounting up.
    Last edited by Arafal; 2021-08-30 at 01:34 PM.

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  8. #6388
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Not really, a ground mount just makes you faster but it does not allow you to completely skip over ground content.

    You still have to navigate around terrain and the enemies in it.
    Not to mention that certain mobs have stun and slow mechanics or just straight up daze and dismount you.

    Excluding flying, they are not the most superior travel option either.
    If you need to travel long distances you'd take a portal or FP instead, and if the zone has accessible elevation, Gliders are vastly more superior than mounts.
    All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  9. #6389
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)
    Well they actually used that stuff again in Mechagon/Uldum/Vale. I loved the mechanic that you could fly without restriction on Mechagon if you got the Hardmode mount!

  10. #6390
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)
    Yes, that's what i was advocating for some pages ago.
    Keep flying, but introduce more anti-flying mechanics in certain areas.

    More flying enemy NPCs that actually do things, cannons and hooks that will shoot and attache themselves to you if you get to close, enemies utilizing magic to cast you down if you don't land, etc.

    Hell, if its necessary i'd even shrink the sky limit down so we can't just fly up into the fucking stratosphere.
    Or introduce some form of vertical fatigue mechanic that keeps you from doing that.
    Last edited by Arafal; 2021-08-30 at 01:48 PM.

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  11. #6391
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    I don't even think flight needs to be limited, with the Dragon Isles potentially being flying islands, you can add some really cool verticality to the zones. Also, I think flying should be in the .0 patch or the .1 patch at the latest, because once you are max level for a few weeks you experienced all there is to experience on the ground. Which is why I like the renown reward version of flying, it just needed to come sooner.
    This whole flying issue is very telling - modern Blizzard has no idea how to create an immersive world. It's a glorified lobby, and they're well aware of that. They want to create a world that feels alive and immersive, but their sole effort to achieve that is to keep you on that ground. That's it. I'm not say that can't contribute to a feeling of immersion, but if that's the sole effort? It does nothing. When the rest of the game is completely driven by game systems (as opposed to systems that make sense in-universe) all it does is make achieving those goals slower.

    No one is stopping to smell the roses because the developers arbitrarily decided to keep us grounded. The game isn't designed to encourage that mindset.

  12. #6392
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)
    It could if it was designed better, but it isn't.

    Flying as is has no weaknesses. When it was first introduced it was at least significantly slower than both flight points and ground mounts. But now with 310% movement speed it is only marginally slower than a flight point, and it still has all the advantages of being from and to anywhere as opposed to being point to point.

    There is no realistic reason a player would choose to use anything but a flying mount unless the game forces their hand like what we have now with being unable to fly between zones without a flight point.

    In a better designed iteration of flying it would have a niche that doesn't directly compete with other modes of transportation. It could be difficult to take off, preventing it from superseding ground mounts, or it be slower so flight paths are better for long term.

    Without flying there are times when you would choose between running, mounts and flight paths without feeling like any us inherently superior. With flying it is always the best choice, whether you intend to get across the zone, navigate uneven terrain or avoid mobs.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #6393
    Yeah, flying at the start with strict no-flying areas (sub-zones) in the actual zones themselves sounds like a pretty good idea, on top of introducing verticality to sometimes require flying.

    Also, another change I'd suggest is larger subterranean areas and maybe even huge sub-zones as part of the larger zone where only ground mounts are allowed, making both flying and ground mounts very relevant but balanced, unlike it is now.

  14. #6394
    I don't get what are zones "with flying in mind". Something like Storm Peaks where some places are accessible only by flying? And what is so interesting about that?

    Imo current system is pretty good.. if they would introduced flying to Maw in 9.2.

  15. #6395
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    Yeah, flying at the start with strict no-flying areas (sub-zones) in the actual zones themselves sounds like a pretty good idea, on top of introducing verticality to sometimes require flying.

    Also, another change I'd suggest is larger subterranean areas and maybe even huge sub-zones as part of the larger zone where only ground mounts are allowed, making both flying and ground mounts very relevant but balanced, unlike it is now.
    This is also kinda why flying should get a revamp. Currently there is no middle ground between being able to fly and not. You can design zones to require flying, but you cannot really design a zone where flying is an integral mechanic since there is no inherent mechanic in current flying to exploit.
    Had for instance flying been based on momentum then such a zone could have updrafts, skill challenges, unique treasures only able to be found by using flying skillfully.
    Conversely a zone designed to not allow flying could have obstacles, downdrafts, areas where you are shot down constantly, or for which you are rewarded for staying on the ground.

    What we would get out of this is what I would argue is a better version of flying. Since it would be somewhat based on skill versus the mechanics of the game itself then Blizzard wouldnt need to remove it outside areas where it is absolutely essential it isnt allowed like inside raids or instanced PvP.


    Though then again, it would require an almost complete overhaul of the mechanics, which would undoubtedly be opposed by those that prefer the current devmode version of flying and doesnt want to see it removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I don't get what are zones "with flying in mind". Something like Storm Peaks where some places are accessible only by flying? And what is so interesting about that?

    Imo current system is pretty good.. if they would introduced flying to Maw in 9.2.
    There isnt really anything interesting regarding zones like that outside them looking distinct. In practice all they do is change the areas you blindly skip past with ground mounts into areas you have to skip past with flying.
    Storm Peaks looks great and has a kickass soundtrack, but in practice the entire zone is just a collection of platforms broken up by empty space and long flight times.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #6396
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It could if it was designed better, but it isn't.
    The problem is simply that Blizzard designs their zones in a lazy way, because they know you won't be able to fly while they want to stretch the content out. Once it's obsolete because the next content is current they just drop it. The zones aren't designed better, because Blizzard chose to use their lazy way out with pathfinder, as it helps them milk as much engagement from people. Without gating flying with pathfinder they would simply have to account for enemies to have simple AA defenses.. like proper forts.

    Also even if you could skip past all content, in most cases that wouldn't even be an issue. On the large mono-faction servers you just have everyone around kill stuff for you, if you are there to kill stuff flying won't get you closer to your goal and if you need to interact with something then that is simply a problem of mechanics they shoot themselves in the foot with (golem/druids). The cases where that is actually an issue are few and far between in the open world, rare enough that they could employ propper design instead.

    So all in all, the issue is simply home made by Blizzard.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  17. #6397
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The problem is simply that Blizzard designs their zones in a lazy way, because they know you won't be able to fly while they want to stretch the content out. Once it's obsolete because the next content is current they just drop it. The zones aren't designed better, because Blizzard chose to use their lazy way out with pathfinder, as it helps them milk as much engagement from people. Without gating flying with pathfinder they would simply have to account for enemies to have simple AA defenses.. like proper forts.
    Again though, this is down to flying itself being designed wrong on a fundamental level. AA forts would be intriguing since we don't have them, but as I have said before it just flips the switch back to not being able to fly. There simply is no space in the mechanics of flying to have a middle ground between flying and not flying.
    There is no way for the game to have something that lets you fly away from the fortress without also letting you fly inside the fortress for instance.

    And it really is such a shame since it splits the game down into two parts, one where the open world content can be more creative because of the limitations that the lack of flying gives, and one where Blizzard gives everyone flying and most of the open world content loses most of its relevance since flying in inherently unbalanceable in its current state.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #6398
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    There is no way for the game to have something that lets you fly away from the fortress without also letting you fly inside the fortress for instance.
    It would be hilarious to load up into a catapult that shoots you out of the no fly zone in a direction of your choosing.

  19. #6399
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

  20. #6400
    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaKirana View Post
    Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.
    Which is your preference - adding some kind of inherent gameplay to mounts, or only functionally being able to use them for half of an expansion's lifespan?

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