Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Alanar]

I would argue that should make them more likely to leave. The Taureans might have had more of a voice in the Horde, but they might also have been more hesitant to leave since they were so integrated.
The Nightborne had just set foot into the door when the Horde attacked a civilian city, realistically Thalyssra should have booked way out of there. At a stretch she might still continue diplomatic relations with Lorthemar, but even he got her in by convincing them she had a lot in common. I would have imagined that could be considered q grave insult going by what the Horde commited eight after that.

I said the same thing, but the problem with this.. is that they have a much deeper connection. Its even got a love vibe to it.. they have to get rid of that first which doesnt seem likely at this point.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I said the same thing, but the problem with this.. is that they have a much deeper connection. Its even got a love vibe to it.. they have to get rid of that first which doesnt seem likely at this point.

It's not just a vibe, there is a rather explicit short story about those 2.

Also when you join a military pact you can't usually just get out 2 days later, that is simply not how it works. First of all you likely have burned some bridges with other options by that point, so you don't even know if they would take you. That leaves a very real chance to end up alone and isolated in a world where that makes you extremely vulnerable. The other leaders, right after the burning, also lacked the player's information about the events, as most of them were not there, and sadly we are never questioned about our witness accounts, since we don't exist in the story.

[Alanar]

It's not just a vibe, there is a rather explicit short story about those 2.

Also when you join a military pact you can't usually just get out 2 days later, that is simply not how it works. First of all you likely have burned some bridges with other options by that point, so you don't even know if they would take you. That leaves a very real chance to end up alone and isolated in a world where that makes you extremely vulnerable. The other leaders, right after the burning, also lacked the player's information about the events, as most of them were not there, and sadly we are never questioned about our witness accounts, since we don't exist in the story.

That is true, there is a big risk there for them if they would go that route, but it was never likely for them to leave in the first place, but like you said it would put them in a quite dangerous position. There is no bubble to protect them and without any help and still recovering they could fall.

I actually forgot about that short story.. mm that makes it even less likely.

[Hitei]

I did, but.. I am curious what u are refering to, could you be abit more specific?

Most of it felt like an opinion, so I tried to read past that.

I am referring to this:

Nah, it was Tyrande who was skeptial the whole time towards them.. that didnt help. She helped because of Suramar, she used to live in that city. Thalyssra even had to explain tyrande she was not the next Azshara and they were differnt. It didnt convince Tyrande which made the Nightborne grow closer to the blood elves who understood what they went through.

There was a flashback from that in the blood elf questline. The use of arcane was probably the issue here for Tyrande.

Which is both full of objectively wrong information, and also stuff that I talked about in the quoted post, so if you read it, I'm not sure why you brought it up like it was new information.

Tyrande did not help for Suramar, the town she lived in, she helped because it was important the Legion not retain control of the Night Well, the reason for her help is pretty irrelevant though, because it doesn't change that Tyrande's troops were still fighting and dying to help Thalyssra's forces retake the city.

Yes. I know that Thalyssra explained she wasn't going to be Azshara, that is what the entire first paragraph of that post is about. The Flashback is, as I pointed out, in the Nightborne intro and I'm going to repost it below so that you understand that what I've bolded in your post is just flat out wrong.

Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?

First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.

Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.

Thalyssra ends the vision and turns back to Liadrin.

First Arcanist Thalyssra says: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.

1) Tyrande doesn't suspect Thalyssra because of "UsE oF ArCaNe MaGiC". She suspects Thalyssra because Thalyssra and the other highborne in Suramar were ON AZSHARA'S SIDE during the War of the Ancients, helping the Legion until they decided partway through that the Legion was dangerous and that the portal the Legion were planning to open in Suramar as their flanking attack against the (Malfurion/Tyrande led) resistance--and then they pushed the demons out of the city, decided they weren't going to fight in the war and sealed themselves in the dome.

2) Tyrande -is- convinced on a basic level, that is why she agrees to have the Kaldorei fight alongside the Nightfallen rebels, she then says that they will deal with whatevers next when the time comes. Which just never comes. That is the last we here from Tyrande, full stop. "We'll see where Elune guides us." Tyrande doesn't reject the Nightborne, she doesn't belittle them, there was no follow-up at all. She asks the one question about Thalyssra, based on Thalyssra's own personal history and the fact that the Elves of Suramar have now done this twice, and then accepts Thalyssra isn't a threat and that pledges the Kaldorei to fight the Legion in Suramar.

I don't know how you can get less bitter than that towards someone who genuinely almost helped destroy the fucking world.

Finally: The similarity between the Nightborne and Blood Elves is in both of their mistakes. Yes, they are very similar. They were the same people, then both suffered from addiction, then both turned to the Legion out of desperation. Except that is where the similarities end: before you even start the Suramar campaign. The Suramar campaign itself is all about the Nightborne learning that the old Night Elven druidic magic (read: the Arcan'dor) can save them from their mana addiction and make them whole again by creating a balance between the nature and arcane. The starting circumstances are similar, but then the way the Nightborne solve their problem is by becoming more like the Kaldorei, not by doing things similarly to the Blood Elves (who turned completely to fel magic and leeching magic off of other creatures) until Velen fixed the Sunwell and saved them--after which they continue to try and proke and prod at dangerous new magics for the sake of power.

The entire Blood Elf angle is especially ridiculous, because Liadrin makes some weird, outlandish claim about how the Blood Elves fought to save the world while the Night Elves did nothing (what even is this supposed to refer to, the third war? Where the Night Elves were the ones who stopped the Legion? The Scourge? Where the Blood Elves did not fucking care until Arthas showed up at their doorstep and kicked in their door?)--when the Nightborne actually just noped the fuck out of the War of the Ancients to save themselves.


The whole thing is a shitshow. But most of my post was not about how shitty the writing was. It's about how people keep wrongly repeating "Well Tyrande was cruel towards the Nightborne and didn't help them, so they joined the Horde". When Tyrande was perfectly reasonable towards a group of literal former enemies, and then helped them a shitload (just as much as the Blood Elves did), but just didn't invite them over for dinner the next day.

[Dracullus]

9.1.5 doesn't bring any new content, but we will have suprising amount of stuff to do for patch like this. Casuals will get Legion raids, islands and extra covenants to farm, skilled players will have 6 "new" M+ (if we add new affix it's like new M+ season) and (maybe) Mage Tower, at least first 2 weeks.

I hope PTR will have some major progress this week, otherwise I fear patch could be scheduled not for Renown 80 week, but around FF14 release.

[Sondrelk]

9.1.5 doesn't bring any new content, but we will have suprising amount of stuff to do for patch like this. Casuals will get Legion raids, islands and extra covenants to farm, skilled players will have 6 "new" M+ (if we add new affix it's like new M+ season) and (maybe) Mage Tower, at least first 2 weeks.

I hope PTR will have some major progress this week, otherwise I fear patch could be scheduled not for Renown 80 week, but around FF14 release.

Depends on your view of content. For someone who doesn't religiously play several alts this patch will in a way quadruple content by giving the ability to farm all covenants easily.

My hunter can now easily swap between several covenants, not just for the abilities, but also to gather cosmetics.

[Nagawithlegs]

Considering that the biggest detractors of WoW right now either are focused on plot or are mostly playing for cosmetics, this patch may not have "content" but funny enough is mostly catered towards them. Opening up 4 covenants worth of mounts, cosmetics, campaigns etc.

Maybe Blizz should release more patches without big story developments. I know the automatic response will be "NO THEY SHOULD JUST MAKE THE STORY GOOD" but after 4 years of no patch story being seen as "good" I think it may be time to drop the overall narrative campaign with the big lore figures for a little. It obviously breeds huge amounts of negativity.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think they should just know what kind of story they are capable of telling. They should go back to smaller scales and less character drama focused, as they simply don't want to spend the amount of effort to make these kind of stories work.

The whole cosmetics thing also only works if you want to spend time in the world of the game, that is kinda reliant on story and personal activities. That their crafting system is in shambles is pretty much another thing that just drirves people away that like those aspects.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm fine with some .5 patches between some of the big content patches. People will moan no matter what(Well this forum specifically. I'm too tired to go on about the .5 changes that could happen.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I would argue that should make them more likely to leave. The Taureans might have had more of a voice in the Horde, but they might also have been more hesitant to leave since they were so integrated.
The Nightborne had just set foot into the door when the Horde attacked a civilian city, realistically Thalyssra should have booked way out of there. At a stretch she might still continue diplomatic relations with Lorthemar, but even he got her in by convincing them she had a lot in common. I would have imagined that could be considered q grave insult going by what the Horde commited eight after that.

Honestly at some point Blizz has to address how it feels like the factions are in a constant state of falling apart, right? Feels like we have this same conversation every speculation cycle where "well why are half these races still in these factions when they clearly hate the people at the top?"

Just going to throw this out there, reworking the 1-60 experience could give them the ground to address stuff of like "well why are the Tauren still in the Horde" or "why do the Night Elves not go rogue?"

[draugril]

Honestly at some point Blizz has to address how it feels like the factions are in a constant state of falling apart, right? Feels like we have this same conversation every speculation cycle where "well why are half these races still in these factions when they clearly hate the people at the top?"

Just going to throw this out there, reworking the 1-60 experience could give them the ground to address stuff of like "well why are the Tauren still in the Horde" or "why do the Night Elves not go rogue?"

Also, allowing cross-faction grouping would actually allow them to have narratives with, say, the Tauren being actively friendly to the Night Elves in lieu of recent developments, or allowing the Night Elves to leave the Alliance entirely (while still grouping up for gameplay purposes).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No stop, leave the factions alone. I can swallow cross faction ingame activities(LFG, LFR yadda yadda).

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

No stop, leave the factions alone. I can swallow cross faction ingame activities(LFG, LFR yadda yadda).

Exactly. I think people asking for Blizz to blow up the factions entirely are asking for a lot of headaches.

So the Night Elves turn their backs on everyone, alright are they now hostile to every quest hub not run by a Night Elf? Are they now the Super Hard mode for leveling because of lack of available quests?

Tauren decide to become friends with everyone? Do they now have the opposite problem where they're so flush with quests that they're the race everyone levels because they're fastest?

More likely Blizz is going to contrive a reason to keep the PvP/Questing wall where it is and just allow players to group cross-faction on their own. It was the Everquest solution, it'll be the WoW solution.

And a 1-60 revamp would allow them to just give us the contrived reason right away instead of drip feeding it to us over a decade like they've been so far.

[draugril]

Exactly. I think people asking for Blizz to blow up the factions entirely are asking for a lot of headaches.

So the Night Elves turn their backs on everyone, alright are they now hostile to every quest hub not run by a Night Elf? Are they now the Super Hard mode for leveling because of lack of available quests?

Tauren decide to become friends with everyone? Do they now have the opposite problem where they're so flush with quests that they're the race everyone levels because they're fastest?

More likely Blizz is going to contrive a reason to keep the PvP/Questing wall where it is and just allow players to group cross-faction on their own. It was the Everquest solution, it'll be the WoW solution.

And a 1-60 revamp would allow them to just give us the contrived reason right away instead of drip feeding it to us over a decade like they've been so far.

Not asking for factions to be "blown up." Simply asking to treat them with more nuance than, "Everyone is red or blue and at the end of it all, the same people will still be red or blue." It robs any faction drama of any potency when "red vs. blue" is a foregone conclusion.

Why shouldn't the Blood Elves make amends with the Alliance?
Why can't the Void Elves visit Silvermoon?
Why couldn't the Horde have booted out the Undead after Wrathgate?
Why shouldn't the Tauren be friendly with the Night Elves after Teldrassil?
Why should the Pandaren have to pick a faction at all?

Stop overcomplicating it. At most, you play with reputation levels for RP purposes to allow certain races into certain cities. You don't block access to anything (although maybe we could use that underutilized "Unfriendly" status). As far as quest structure goes, Horde is Horde, Alliance is Alliance, and maybe throw in a few flavour quests to acknowledge any narrative developments. You don't need to get more complicated than that.

[Raetary]

Hmm, It would be nice if they gave 'hated' and 'unfriendly' rep statuses another go with CFP.

[draugril]

Hmm, It would be nice if they gave 'hated' and 'unfriendly' rep statuses another go with CFP.

Not to mention the "At War" toggle. Are you a Night Elf that still hates Tauren for some reason and don't want a little refuge on a bluff somewhere? Hit that "At War" and corpse camp Baine regardless.

Edit: It's almost as if there is potential here to give players the tools for true agency instead of having our allegiances entirely dictated to us.

[Makorus]

Still baffled that we are still arguing about Cross-Faction grouping when we had this cinematic.

Cross Faction stuff was the safest bet ever after 8.3, and yet we are still sitting here speculating about it.

I really don't understand Blizzard. That whole story arc was the perfect setup for some kind of crossfaction stuff, yet they squandered it.

[Hugnomo]

Still baffled that we are still arguing about Cross-Faction grouping when we had this cinematic.

Cross Faction stuff was the safest bet ever after 8.3, and yet we are still sitting here speculating about it.

I really don't understand Blizzard. That whole story arc was the perfect setup for some kind of crossfaction stuff, yet they squandered it.

Completely agree. That cinematic, as well as Jaina's and Thrall's after saving Baine, were so pointed towards that. And it would have fit in the wider context, considering we were in the 4th war and that would have been a sensible resolution to the narrative. Idk what happened to that. And Ion himself has recently mentioned it on twitter too.

[Raetary]

Still baffled that we are still arguing about Cross-Faction grouping when we had this cinematic.

Cross Faction stuff was the safest bet ever after 8.3, and yet we are still sitting here speculating about it.

I really don't understand Blizzard. That whole story arc was the perfect setup for some kind of crossfaction stuff, yet they squandered it.

This was the absolute low-point of the war campaign.
The content of the cinematic was fine, but the fact that nothing came out of it is absolute insanity.

They build up unity, they lament about the past, they talk about "breaking the cylce" only to NOT do that.
What the actual fuck was even the point of it?

[Makorus]

This was the absolute low-point of the war campaign.
Not because of the contents in the cinematic, but of what came after.

Nothing.
Exactly fucking nothing.

They build up unity, they lament about the past, they talk about "breaking the cylce" only to NOT do that.
What the actual fuck was even the point of it?

We didn't even get a cross-faction scenario or a cross-faction warfront like with the Broken Shore. The only thing that happened is that there were some friendly Alliance/Horde NPCs. Completely idiotic.