1. #7641
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    ...We don't need titanforging. And removing gear drops from M+ will hurt it. Whatever you're smoking is pretty crazy.
    The reward structure, with raids being completely unviable for gearing and you having to rely on your Vault for actual proper gearing, is a side-effect of Mythic+ having actual gear and there being no Titanforging.

    It's kind of common sense.

  2. #7642
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Or, they could just increase raid drop rates so running them is actually worthwhile again instead of completely fucking over alternate progression systems?

    Doing a whole raid should have a guaranteed item drop, at the very least.
    Last edited by Arafal; 2021-09-23 at 07:38 PM.

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  3. #7643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The reward structure will never be fixed unless they remove gear drops from M+ or bring back Titanforging.
    Removing gear drops from M+ wouldnt hurt it if they replaced the gear drops with cosmetics. Xmogs, enchants, mounts, titles, etc. M+ is designed to be competitive. Has been from the start. Past a certain point, the rewards should no longer be player power. Same as pvp.

  4. #7644
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The reward structure, with raids being completely unviable for gearing and you having to rely on your Vault for actual proper gearing, is a side-effect of Mythic+ having actual gear and there being no Titanforging.

    It's kind of common sense.
    What purpose and progression should M+ have then? Currently it is in fact mostly propped up by gear, so you would need to replace it with something of equal value.
    Old challenge mode dungeons gave cosmetics, but this made them a once and done thing. M+ is supposed to be evergreen content for the expansion, it's what makes them, and by extension dungeons as a whole worth putting effort into.

    M+ is problematic for raid progression, but in that case the solution should be something like PvP where the gear gained exists in its own microcosm where it is best, as opposed to taking it out to other forms of content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Or, they could just increase raid drop rates so running them is actually worthwhile again instead of completely fucking over alternate progression systems?

    Doing a whole raid should have a guaranteed item drop, at the very least.
    I dunno, you would have to be pretty damn unlucky ot not get at least one or two pieces of gear per raid currently.

    The issue which is the reason we have lower amounts of gear dropping is that if you get too much then you would end up geared in BiS pieces before you have even completed progression, leaving raiding afterwards pointless.
    The intent behind Warforging and later Titanforging was to alleviate this problem. However it ended up causing problems as a whole, which is why it in turn was removed.
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  5. #7645
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Removing gear drops from M+ wouldnt hurt it if they replaced the gear drops with cosmetics. Xmogs, enchants, mounts, titles, etc. M+ is designed to be competitive. Has been from the start. Past a certain point, the rewards should no longer be player power. Same as pvp.
    If you remove gear from m+ you pretty much just kill it for all people that no longer want to engage with the fixed raiding schedule, which is quite alot of people. I certainly know my m+ crew would just stop playing wow at all, since half of us don't raid at all anymore.
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  6. #7646
    Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

    If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

    We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

    Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).
    Azeroth must be remastered!

  7. #7647
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

    If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

    We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

    Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).
    Ok, and any data that more players do M+ than raids? And that raids "don't work"? Because you base your entire reasoning on that.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-09-23 at 08:20 PM.
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  8. #7648
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

    If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

    We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

    Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).
    Raid haven't been the most rewarding activity in a long time. That's the reason why stuff like Dominations sockets exist. Because if they didn't, then I would have not a single gear piece from Raids.

    Outside of transmogs, there's pretty much no reason to do raids in the current state, because even trinkets from dungeons are more busted than raid ones.

  9. #7649
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    This idea that little to no reason to raid... just seems weird. Of course there's a purpose to go there. Maybe in your little circle it is but not the whole playerbase).
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  10. #7650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Raid haven't been the most rewarding activity in a long time. That's the reason why stuff like Dominations sockets exist. Because if they didn't, then I would have not a single gear piece from Raids.

    Outside of transmogs, there's pretty much no reason to do raids in the current state, because even trinkets from dungeons are more busted than raid ones.
    Ye sure pal. No reason, no rewards. Things like fun from beating the hardest content, or the bragging rights and feeling of accomplishment, or the gear that is actually not worse than M+ and is a slot by slot and spec by spec case. Y'all people not realizing that raiding has been carrying this game for years is like, I dunno...
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-09-23 at 09:02 PM.
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  11. #7651
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Or, they could just increase raid drop rates so running them is actually worthwhile again instead of completely fucking over alternate progression systems?

    Doing a whole raid should have a guaranteed item drop, at the very least.
    And let's be frank, here - their systems are smart enough to know whether or not it is giving you a duplicate drop at this point. We may as well eliminate those, given the overall scarcity. Nothing feels worse than finally getting an item after two weeks of nothing, and it's something you already have.

  12. #7652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ok, and any data that more players do M+ than raids?
    You really don't need statistics for that.
    M+ is objectively easier to get into and run than raiding is, its quicker, requires less players and significantly less preparation.

    The feature is bound to be more popular simply based on that.
    It also rewards you a ton more since its repeatable, whereas raids are a weekly activity.

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  13. #7653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    You really don't need statistics for that.
    M+ is objectively easier to get into and run than raiding is, its quicker, requires less players and significantly less preparation.
    It also rewards you a ton more since its repeatable, whereas raids are a weekly activity.

    The feature is bound to be more popular simply based on that.
    Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR, the most popular raiding mode? Because you didn't remove it from the consideration, did you?
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  14. #7654
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ye sure pal. No reason, no rewards. Things like fun from beating the hardest content, or the bragging rights and feeling of accomplishment, or the gear that is actually not worse than M+ and is a slot by slot and spec by spec case. Y'all people not realizing that raiding has been carrying this game for years is like, I dunno...
    Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

    There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR, the most popular raiding mode? Because you didn't remove it from the consideration, did you?
    lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?

  15. #7655
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

    There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.

    - - - Updated - - -



    lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?
    Well, first you said transmog is the only reason, now you add the enjoyment. Progress!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?
    Ok, so you don't want to bring LFR? Then we won't be bringing key runs below 10, because what's the point? You either bring a total raiding and M+ content, or you don't compare them at all, becuase then you start to cherry pick to better fit into your argument.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-09-23 at 09:21 PM.
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  16. #7656
    Raiding has a very distinct advantage over dungeons. Each one is unique, and you get new ones all the time. Dungeons are shorter, and really only surpass raids in content at the very beginning of the expansion.
    The raids are also where the story is primarily focused. It has unique cosmetics and mounts. And it's both more modular in difficulty than Dungeons while also being longer in format. So you get a combination of those interested in plot, those interested in cosmetics, and those interested in large format activities to do as a group.

    A dungeon is less interesting in that sense. It really only has the competetive angle, and even then just really being better than raids in the sense that there is more variety from week to week, and also that it requires less people. Raids are still the high-water mark for prestigious content accepted by WoW players.
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  17. #7657
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well, first you said transmog is the only reason, now you add the enjoyment. Progress!

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    Ok, so you don;t want to bring LFR? Then we won't be bringing key runs below 10, because what's the point?
    Yes, why would I bring up runs below 10? 15s are easily doable for anyone at like 220-230 ilvl, and they give Mythic SoD-level of gear. Which is where the whole issue comes from. The fact that at most you get two items of gear from raids (unless someone trades), and the fact that M+ pretty much gives you a welfare 252 piece for doing a +15 (it's not like you have to time it), disincentives raiding so hard.#


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  18. #7658
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR
    None, just like M+2-10.
    Which you can do at any time, on any day of the week, for the entire week, whereas LFR still is gated by the weekly reset.
    (And taking LFR queues into account, signing up on for a low-key group will be a lot quicker)

    Also, afaik LFR doesn't exactly have a different reward structure, so looting is the same as nomal and above. (in other words, its not any more rewarding)


    And that's ignoring the primary purpose of LFR, to give people who aren't into organized raiding a chance to see the raid.
    I wouldn't be surprised if its just a one and done thing for most players.
    Last edited by Arafal; 2021-09-23 at 09:27 PM.

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  19. #7659
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

    There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.
    The reason is that it is twice as easy.

  20. #7660
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Yes, why would I bring up runs below 10? 15s are easily doable for anyone at like 220-230 ilvl, and they give Mythic SoD-level of gear. Which is where the whole issue comes from. The fact that at most you get two items of gear from raids (unless someone trades), and the fact that M+ pretty much gives you a welfare 252 piece for doing a +15 (it's not like you have to time it), disincentives raiding so hard.
    Ye, M+ gives you Mythic raiding loot, ONCE PER WEEK. You wanna tell me that's a better gearing up process than raids? Well me and all my mates disagree looking at overall amount of loot we got. Not even mentioning you get such a bigger possibilities to pass loot in raids.
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