Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Yarathir]

Is there ANY data that show BfA/SL performing worse than Legion? Cause every expac has different problems, every time same usual suspects told us THIS TIME THIS IS END FOR SURE... and then next expac sold the same as before (roughly).

I don't think Blizzard has given any concrete data since WoD. Which is for a reason.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I don't think Blizzard has given any concrete data since WoD. Which is for a reason.

Only thing they give out is MAUs on Bnet, which is worthless for trying to see how many are playing WoW.

[Sondrelk]

SL is far worse than BfA.

For sure, but that is honestly mostly down to the droughts really fucking with players sense of when to expect new content. Even considering the pushback against the theme (I know I hate it), the sheer amount of content compared to BfA on a patch to patch basis is staggeringly in Shadowlands favor. Korthia might not be a big zone, but it is more than what we have normally gotten in X.1 patches, that being nothing. And there is a staggering amount of new mounts compared to other patches like this.

I am willing to put money down that in 2 years time the complaints about SL will only be on how little content there ended up being (if the expansion is cut short) or how it set back the release schedule (if it isnt).
I am confident that by that time players will mostly think back to Shadowlands in the context of how much unique stuff was gained. Unique mounts, unique transmog, unique raids and zones, and all of that with a strong thematic element, making it a valued source of cosmetics going forward.

[Makabreska]

Because people were so silent about the harassment.

They are silent now. In-game painting change or NPC rename bothers them much more.

[Osmeric]

For sure, but that is honestly mostly down to the droughts really fucking with players sense of when to expect new content.

Personally, and unlike BfA, I found SL intolerably bad from the get go, and stopped playing after just a few weeks. Content drought had nothing to do with it.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Because people were so silent about the harassment.

I was referring to how some people are more mad at the changes made within the game instead of being mad at the actual events that happened in real life, after they were revealed of course. Sorry if that wasn't clear! Of course, you can't be mad about something until you have knowledge of it (knowledge which unfortunately often becomes public way too late, not that it's any of the victim's fault for not speaking up sooner, being vocal about such events can be extremely difficult and soul-wrecking).

Thinking about it I have to wonder if Blizzard didnt have Incubi in Legion simply because they already had Male Belf DHs to fill the "sexy demon man" niche. Afterall, realistically what could a male Incubi look like that wouldnt just be a shirtless pasty guy with horns?

To be honest that might be it, but if I remember well they had teased at female Satyrs and we never saw those, so maybe they just scrapped them altogether? There was a lot going on in Legion, so yeah, both scenarios could be possible

[Dracullus]

I don't think Blizzard has given any concrete data since WoD. Which is for a reason.

We have first day sales from every expac. Now tell me with straight face that this number doesn't correlate with general population and people come back every 2 years cause they always believe Blizzard "won't fuck up WoW this time".

Btw, I'm waiting for Square Enix to reveal their launch numbers (beside total accounts registered) when next expac will launch. According to some people here FF14 is already biggest MMO, so it will be perfect opportunity to show this, right? Right?

I was referring to how some people are more mad at the changes made within the game instead of being mad at the actual events that happened in real life, after they were revealed of course. Sorry if that wasn't clear! Of course, you can't be mad about something until you have knowledge of it (knowledge which unfortunately often becomes public way too late, not that it's any of the victim's fault for not speaking up sooner, being vocal about such events can be extremely difficult and soul-wrecking).

It's mob that jumped on WoW dev when he said there isn't much work going on TWO DAYS after it happened. What we are even talking about.

[Yarathir]

I was referring to how some people are more mad at the changes made within the game instead of being mad at the actual events that happened in real life, after they were revealed of course. Sorry if that wasn't clear! Of course, you can't be mad about something until you have knowledge of it (knowledge which unfortunately often becomes public way too late, not that it's any of the victim's fault for not speaking up sooner, being vocal about such events can be extremely difficult and soul-wrecking).

Some, maybe, yeah. But there are plenty that were upset at both. I had plenty of people tell me I went overboard in being mad at Blizzard over what happened, that they need to be given another chance.

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We have first day sales from every expac. Now tell me with straight face that this number doesn't correlate with general population and people come back every 2 years cause they always believe Blizzard "won't fuck up WoW this time".

Btw, I'm waiting for Square Enix to reveal their launch numbers (beside total accounts registered) when next expac will launch. According to some people here FF14 is already biggest MMO, so it will be perfect opportunity to show this, right? Right?

Expansion launch hype is kind of meaningless to me. There's always peaks during those. I care more about the sub numbers halfway through a patch.

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They are silent now. In-game painting change or NPC rename bothers them much more.

They already said what they had to, and in many cases are still saying so.

You can take issue with multiple things at once.

[Makabreska]

They already said what they had to, and in many cases are still saying so.

You can take issue with multiple things at once.

Ye well, the thing is it's a case of real people with real harm done to them vs in-game changes to outdated content players wouldn't even notice if not for the news. Gamers should be pressuring Blizz each week, like they did with BfA Essences on Reddit. But they are now more concerned about WoW getting "woke" and when next content update is coming. Because that's what they mostly care about - gameplay. This proves it, AC:Valhalla proved it, Star Wars Battlefront 2 proved it, CB2077 proved it etc.

[Yarathir]

Ye well, the thing is it's a case of real people with real harm done to them vs in-game changes to outdated content players wouldn't even notice if not for the news. Gamers should be pressuring Blizz each week, like they did with BfA Essences on Reddit. But they are now more concerned about WoW getting "woke" and when next content update is coming. Because that's what they mostly care about - gameplay. This proves it, AC:Valhalla proved it, Star Wars Battlefront 2 proved it, CB2077 proved it etc.

Aren't they? I don't think people are letting Blizzard particularly go?

I think what went on at Blizzard is awful. Even advocated for developers to leave if they had the opportunity because Activision-Blizzard didn't deserve them. None of that means I'm in support of turning paintings into fruit, though.

And yes, the average consumer isn't an activist. They will care about their gameplay, which is fine in a sense because most people expect and should be allowed to expect that the gaming company they buy a product or pay for a service from isn't filled with sex pests. I can tell you I didn't exactly buy Shadowlands with the express knowledge that employees were being groped there- did you?

[Makabreska]

Aren't they? I don't think people are letting Blizzard particularly go?

I think what went on at Blizzard is awful. Even advocated for developers to leave if they had the opportunity because Activision-Blizzard didn't deserve them. None of that means I'm in support of turning paintings into fruit, though.

And yes, the average consumer isn't an activist. They will care about their gameplay, which is fine in a sense because most people expect and should be allowed to expect that the gaming company they buy a product or pay for a service from isn't filled with sex pests. I can tell you I didn't exactly buy Shadowlands with the express knowledge that employees were being groped there- did you?

Advocating to leave the company and put financial safety of yourself and your close ones at risk rings hollow, especially in times of pandemic.

It's just the fact that players are getting so riled up and angry when it comes to being locked to Covs, AoE being capped, Master Looter going away or Darth Vader being locked behind insane grind, yet when we have real life drama they go like "I'm so sad and disappointed.....oh well, it's push week!".

[Nyel]

I don’t know what you’re smoking if you think people hate SL nearly as much as BFA, where every single update and change brought people actually being triggered about everything from horse mounts to genocide.

People are just bored with SL (and WoW in general) because it’s a small expansion, it’s boring to them and it’s still based on BFA characters that people don’t like. The isn’t the nuclear crybaby outrage of BFA, people just aren’t convinced out of their BFAhate. And they won’t be until WoW soft reboots.

I'm counting all of Blizzard's scandals into the gigantic mess surrounding Shadowlands. And I indeed think people like it way less than BfA, that's why Blizzard is rushing out those emergency fixes that usually come at the end of an expansion. I think the biggest problem of SL is indeed the content drought. Alone Shadowlands wouldn't be worse, but with all the negative stuff surrounding the game, I indeed think this is the new low for retail WoW and needs a massive course correction in the next expansion.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I mean when you buy a game and pay a subscription fee, it is pretty clear that there should be a focus on the product. It just makes logical sense. It's not a lack of empathy, it is a logical conclusion.

We still don't have any information on the future of the game and won't do so until Mid/Late November. It is fascinating to me that I should care about the United States of America issues that will never be resolved, regardless.

Also it is so weird how everyone tries to portray the issues at Blizzard Entertainment as some sort of terrible heinous crime on some astronomical scales. It's literally just Sexual Harassment, Racism and Horrible Working Conditions which if you are just mildly interested in the industry would know is commonplace and widespread throughout the VIdeo Game Industry but so is it throughout all kinds of workplaces throughout the World. It is genuinely fascinating to me how ridiculously obsessive you should be about this company and their unachievable goals to be better. But, hey I guess that is the way it is.

[Nyel]

Only thing they give out is MAUs on Bnet, which is worthless for trying to see how many are playing WoW.

It gives you a tendency. Same with revenue and profit.

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Btw, I'm waiting for Square Enix to reveal their launch numbers (beside total accounts registered) when next expac will launch. According to some people here FF14 is already biggest MMO, so it will be perfect opportunity to show this, right? Right?

With WoW not announcing numbers they couldn't prove this anyway.

And your argument is always the first day sales, which are pointless as they're not really first day sales. They are pre-orders that took place over a period of one year AND first day sales. The number itself is impressive, yes, but pointless - and you know why.

Everybody who wants to play a retail expansion is pre-ordering or buying on day 1. So it's safe to assume that number is accounting for the highest amount of subs during the lifetime of said expansion, especially when your revenue after an expansion release is only going down significantly.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Games model has also been changed to be focused on Expansion Sales and 6 month sub locks for a while now while the WoW Token does the rest. They're also working on additons to the Warcraft Franchise with Mobile Games and further Classic Era Projects that will make Retail not require any resources and can just be a ghost ship outside of the checklist of content that is necessary for Blizzard to state that this is a "content patch".

[Makabreska]

.Also it is so weird how everyone tries to portray the issues at Blizzard Entertainment as some sort of terrible heinous crime on some astronomical scales. It's literally just Sexual Harassment, Racism and Horrible Working Conditions which if you are just mildly interested in the industry would know is commonplace and widespread throughout the VIdeo Game Industry but so is it throughout all kinds of workplaces throughout the World. It is genuinely fascinating to me how ridiculously obsessive you should be about this company and their unachievable goals to be better. But, hey I guess that is the way it is.

And you know why they are so widespread throughout a video game industry? Because "there should be a focus on a product", not nameless faces behind it.

Also epic LOL at "it's literally just Sexual Harassment, Racism and Horrible Working Conditions". So like, business as usual, eh? It's widespread so who gives a fuck? Where the next patch at?

You just shown beautifully what I has been saying here about not caring players.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

And you know why they are so widespread throughout a video game industry? Because "there should be a focus on a product", not nameless faces behind it.

Also epic LOL at "it's literally just Sexual Harassment, Racism and Horrible Working Conditions". So like, business as usual, eh? It's widespread so who gives a fuck? Where the next patch at?

You just shown beautifully what I has been saying here about not caring players.

It's a product. We deserve that as a customer. You don't care about the fact that the other products you consume are ripe with labor violations and other heinous crimes. So it's just a nonsensical position to argue from.

The product is what is important out of Blizzard Entertainment, the people are expendable and are just creating the product and especially now that they are removing all references to developers and making sure that no longer has a place in their games. That is the reality now. They are just creating the product that you consume and should raise to the occasion to provide said product at the greatest quality available.

It is genuinely so nonsenical to me to even consider anything else. The state of Shadowlands is that we have no idea when our product ends and what we actually purchased and that's been this for a year while we still pay $15 a month for it. Not many other companies get to get away doing this.

Just because there's a massive political issue hanging above this doesn't make it some righteousness to operate in bad faith that anyone that argues that the current state of the game is terrible and also has gone backwards in communicating with the community while also the fact that they have not even bothered giving ample information to said consumers about what they actually purchased are bad people on a moral level.

Also, you can be for better Working Rights and realize that they are an impossibility and move on to the actual issue at hand which is that the product the company makes is not in good quality and is stuck in limbo state for almost the entirety of a year without any addressing of from the companys' side. If anything the fact that the political nature of these changes continues to become more and more prevalent. I just don't care about these employees as they don't care about their consumers at all as they've publically stated on multiple occasions. It's about them and not the product they make and that just is a no-go situation when their job is to provide the consumer with a great video game experience.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And you know why they are so widespread throughout a video game industry? Because "there should be a focus on a product", not nameless faces behind it.

Also epic LOL at "it's literally just Sexual Harassment, Racism and Horrible Working Conditions". So like, business as usual, eh? It's widespread so who gives a fuck? Where the next patch at?

You just shown beautifully what I has been saying here about not caring players.

Don't even need to say anything, you pretty much make my point for me. Workers deserve better.

It's a product. We deserve that as a customer. You don't care about the fact that the other products you consume are ripe with labor violations and other heinous crimes. So it's just a nonsensical position to argue from.

Yes and they are made by humans. We shouldn't just be like "I CARE ONLY ABOUT PRODUCT" Thats just lazy and cold.

[Dracullus]

With WoW not announcing numbers they couldn't prove this anyway.

And your argument are always the first day sales, which are pointless as they're not really first day sales. They are pre-orders that took place over a period of one year AND first day sales. The number itself is impressive, yes, but pointless - and you know why. Everybody who wants to play a retail expansion is pre-ordering or buying on day 1. So it's safe to assume that number is accounting for the highest amount of subs during the lifetime of said expansion, especially when your revenue after an expansion release is only going down significantly.

I'm not talking about subs, I would like to know same number from SE that Blizzard provides on their launches. So far they show only total registered accounts and weird statement that.. they ran out of digital keys (?????). Expansion come almost 6 months after FF14 popularity exploded, should be enough to see how many people are sticking with game and buy expac, not just try similar game while they are bored with WoW. It's easy time for MMO when most people consume base game, true test is endgame.

And I'm using this (pre-order) argument over and over again cause it's always ignored and some people repeat same bullshit that WoW population is shrinking with every expansion. This number simply correlate with popularity on launch and would go down along with general WoW population. Since WoD nothing major changed in pre-order/launch structure. Funny that even recent, ekhem, "measures" show that ~50% people from launch play 9.1, which is exactly the same as WoD after 6 months.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I'm not talking about subs, I would like to know same number from SE that Blizzard provides on their launches. So far they show only total registered accounts and weird statement that.. they ran out of digital keys (?????). Expansion come almost 6 months after FF14 popularity exploded, should be enough to see how many people are sticking with game and buy expac, not just try similar game while they are bored with WoW. It's easy time for MMO when most people consume base game, true test is endgame.

And I'm using this (pre-order) argument over and over again cause it's always ignored and some people repeat same bullshit that WoW population is shrinking with every expansion. This number simply correlate with popularity on launch and would go down along with general WoW population. Since WoD nothing major changed in pre-order/launch structure. Funny that even recent, ekhem, "measures" show that ~50% people from launch play 9.1, which is exactly the same as WoD after 6 months.

I mean you are spot on that the Preorders matter more.