1. #8581
    Quote Originally Posted by Kereberus View Post
    I wonder if he snuck more Loyalist stuff into 9.1.5. I remember him commenting about it before 9.1 dropped.
    The loyalist plotline needs to be shot in a ditch at this point. It has done nothing but drag the story down with nonsensical justifications for why an obvious traitor gets to sabotage themselves for no reason, and then also get away with no repercussions afterwards.

    What would the loyalists even do? Are they going to change their reasoning for supporting Sylvanas that they believed in her inherent goodness as she torched those children? Or is it finally going to have the proper ending it deserves? The character is given a last chance to repent, refuse and the character is deleted to signify permadeath.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #8582
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Is there really anyone yearning for an expansion with Yrel as a villain / antagonist? She’s hardly relevant in the bigger picture (as most what came to fruition in WoD), so I have no idea why people think that John Doe would form any connection or interest in a storyline revolving around her.
    Not really. Most people just think she's the Sylvanas serving some Optimus Prime Naaru.

    Which I doubt they'd shove in front of us again given how poorly Sylvanas has been received, and shoving another promising female character into a raid might anger people given what we know about Blizz's stance toward female employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It did. Blizzard didn't go to such lengths to advertise other expansions, Blizzard went all out for World of Orcs:

    https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/433110.jpg[/IMG]


    Which is why it's bizarre that Blizzard would then throw WoD into the bin, since they spent so much money advertising it. But as we see now in Shadowlands, Blizzard hasn't had their priorities straight for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time
    To be fair to their advertising team, WoD was basically also advertising for WoW's 10th and Warcraft's 20th. We'll probably see them go to similar lengths for 11.0 if the game ever lasts that long.
    WoW has Cancer. First you cut out the cancer (abusive devs), then you assign an aggressive treatment plan (major design rework) to save it.

    Or you just let it die because that's too expensive.

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  3. #8583
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Feeling good? I think you could find that on non wowhead/mmo champion forums during Legion. That wasn't my opinion but there was definite rage and I still remember it. This doesn't mean I hate SL, no I think it gets too much hate(Lawsuit aside cause thats legit problem).

    People loathed the Azerite armor system and well I don't blame people for it but it didn't really make me annoyed to the point of anger. Azerite farming got a bit tough not gonna lie, still wonder if that Jonathan Lecraft guy was responsible for a lot off..."Really??" decisions based on the past 10 years.


    Edit: The whole loyalist questline where players chose to believe in Sylvanas doesn't bother me but....the lengths people will go to defend one damned banshee is crazy.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2021-10-14 at 10:01 PM.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

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  4. #8584
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post

    Edit: The whole loyalist questline where players chose to believe in Sylvanas doesn't bother me but....the lengths people will go to defend one damned banshee is crazy.
    The frustrating part wasn't even that some people were defending her. It was how many people were defending her for no reason other than "Boob Lady."
    WoW has Cancer. First you cut out the cancer (abusive devs), then you assign an aggressive treatment plan (major design rework) to save it.

    Or you just let it die because that's too expensive.

    FFXIV - Crystal Datacenter

  5. #8585
    So, this is what I think happened:

    First Ones and Primals pop in at the same time when everything was still nothing (The Tool and the Architect share existence) >>>> Primals exist in strife >>>> First Ones feel like more should be done >>>> First Ones get together and think of a design >>>> They give a portion of themselves and give form to it >>>> The Primals are influenced by the First Ones and are given platonic form such as Order, Disorder, Shadow, Light, Life, and Death >>>> The First Ones then combine the forces in a pendulum and create the cosmic cycles for each power >>>> The Cosmic Framework is made and as a result a reaction is made from the First Ones' creative process with the Forces >>>> The Cosmic Realms are made and the First Ones establish cities, laws, and concepts that hold existence together >>>> The Elements are made and stuff such as Holy, Void, Arcane, etc pop in from the newly established/balanced powers >>>> The First Ones create their own cornerstone realm and the Sepulcher + cities within the Cosmic Realms >>>> The First Ones create the Cosmic Pantheons as the embodiments of each Cosmic Force and as extensions of the First Ones' will >>>> Cosmic races and shit are made >>>> First Ones then create reality as its nexus and supply the Cosmic Pantheons and Realms with additional resources to aid their existence >>>> First Ones create prophecies and shit like that for in case things go south >>>> First Ones dip and watch from beyond

  6. #8586
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The loyalist plotline needs to be shot in a ditch at this point. It has done nothing but drag the story down with nonsensical justifications for why an obvious traitor gets to sabotage themselves for no reason, and then also get away with no repercussions afterwards.

    What would the loyalists even do? Are they going to change their reasoning for supporting Sylvanas that they believed in her inherent goodness as she torched those children? Or is it finally going to have the proper ending it deserves? The character is given a last chance to repent, refuse and the character is deleted to signify permadeath.
    They could have Sylvanas herself telling them off for being morons.

  7. #8587
    So, this is what I think happened:

    First Ones and Primals pop in at the same time when everything was still nothing (The Tool and the Architect share existence) >>>> Primals exist in strife >>>> First Ones feel like more should be done >>>> First Ones get together and think of a design >>>> They give a portion of themselves and give form to it >>>> The Primals are influenced by the First Ones and are given platonic form such as Order, Disorder, Shadow, Light, Life, and Death >>>> The First Ones then combine the forces in a pendulum and create the cosmic cycles for each power >>>> The Cosmic Framework is made and as a result a reaction is made from the First Ones' creative process with the Forces >>>> The Cosmic Realms are made and the First Ones establish cities, laws, and concepts that hold existence together >>>> The Elements are made and stuff such as Holy, Void, Arcane, etc pop in from the newly established/balanced powers >>>> The First Ones create their own cornerstone realm and the Sepulcher + cities within the Cosmic Realms >>>> The First Ones create the Cosmic Pantheons as the embodiments of each Cosmic Force and as extensions of the First Ones' will >>>> Cosmic races and shit are made >>>> First Ones then create reality as its nexus and supply the Cosmic Pantheons and Realms with additional resources to aid their existence >>>> First Ones create prophecies and shit like that for in case things go south >>>> First Ones dip and watch from beyond

    No mention of the 7th power cause I'm not going into that rabbit-hole.

  8. #8588
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    In Legion, the future looked bright for WoW, especially given how much of an improvement it was over WoD and the amount of communication coming from Blizzard - people were more willing to forgive the devs for these "transgressions". Can we say the same now, given the state of SL and the bad taste of BFA?
    Lol. I clearly remember how this forum looked like during same period in Legion, so 7.2. Even Argus was shit on, youtube celebrities were in awe when they saw it on PTR, but when it launched community screamed "B-O-R-I-N-G".

    Only reason this forum was "hopeful" and more positive early Legion was huge drought after WoD where people really had nothing to do for year (lack of content + less casual things to do like collecting transmog or mounts). When you take long break, WoW taste 100x better.

  9. #8589
    All this cosmic stuff is fantastic as background dressing. Stuff found in books and legends - hinted at, but never confirmed. It's fun fodder for theorizing and speculating in any fantasy setting. The problem is, the actual workings of a fantasy cosmology are never as interesting as the speculation. The second you demystify this stuff is the second it becomes boring and your universe becomes small. These kinds of mysteries are fun because they make the world feel bigger than it is with limitless possibilities. Shadowlands, by defining large swathes of WoW's cosmology, has shrunk the perceived scope of this universe.

    As a lifelong reader of fantasy, I honestly can't think of a single universe where the cosmology itself was inherently engaging. It has always been the characters and their interactions that draw you in. The same is true of nearly all stories, I suppose, fantasy or otherwise. The universe exists to service them - tricking the reader into perceiving the worlds they inhabit as beyond the scope of the author's detailing is a skill that WoW seems to have lost.

    They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    So, this is what I think happened:

    First Ones and Primals pop in at the same time when everything was still nothing (The Tool and the Architect share existence) >>>> Primals exist in strife >>>> First Ones feel like more should be done >>>> First Ones get together and think of a design >>>> They give a portion of themselves and give form to it >>>> The Primals are influenced by the First Ones and are given platonic form such as Order, Disorder, Shadow, Light, Life, and Death >>>> The First Ones then combine the forces in a pendulum and create the cosmic cycles for each power >>>> The Cosmic Framework is made and as a result a reaction is made from the First Ones' creative process with the Forces >>>> The Cosmic Realms are made and the First Ones establish cities, laws, and concepts that hold existence together >>>> The Elements are made and stuff such as Holy, Void, Arcane, etc pop in from the newly established/balanced powers >>>> The First Ones create their own cornerstone realm and the Sepulcher + cities within the Cosmic Realms >>>> The First Ones create the Cosmic Pantheons as the embodiments of each Cosmic Force and as extensions of the First Ones' will >>>> Cosmic races and shit are made >>>> First Ones then create reality as its nexus and supply the Cosmic Pantheons and Realms with additional resources to aid their existence >>>> First Ones create prophecies and shit like that for in case things go south >>>> First Ones dip and watch from beyond

    No mention of the 7th power cause I'm not going into that rabbit-hole.
    Oh, honey. I can assure you that you've put infinitely more thought into this than anyone on the WarCraft team.

  10. #8590
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.
    That's why these stories don't work in WoW. Was good to have this stuff in the novels and easier to understand main storylines in the game. But with Shadowlands they really tried to squeeze everything in the expansion, some retcons and shocking reveals on top and well, it's a hodgepodge of irrelevancy nobody actually cares for.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  11. #8591
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    All this cosmic stuff is fantastic as background dressing. Stuff found in books and legends - hinted at, but never confirmed. It's fun fodder for theorizing and speculating in any fantasy setting. The problem is, the actual workings of a fantasy cosmology are never as interesting as the speculation. The second you demystify this stuff is the second it becomes boring and your universe becomes small. These kinds of mysteries are fun because they make the world feel bigger than it is with limitless possibilities. Shadowlands, by defining large swathes of WoW's cosmology, has shrunk the perceived scope of this universe.

    As a lifelong reader of fantasy, I honestly can't think of a single universe where the cosmology itself was inherently engaging. It has always been the characters and their interactions that draw you in. The same is true of nearly all stories, I suppose, fantasy or otherwise. The universe exists to service them - tricking the reader into perceiving the worlds they inhabit as beyond the scope of the author's detailing is a skill that WoW seems to have lost.

    They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.

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    Oh, honey. I can assure you that you've put infinitely more thought into this than anyone on the WarCraft team.
    I mean, it just feels right. The First Ones and the Primals always existed (Serving as the tool and the architect), and the Architects used the tools in order to create and clockwork the Cosmos we see today.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...f_the_Universe

    lol more things to prove my point

  12. #8592
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    That's why these stories don't work in WoW. Was good to have this stuff in the novels and easier to understand main storylines in the game. But with Shadowlands they really tried to squeeze everything in the expansion, some retcons and shocking reveals on top and well, it's a hodgepodge of irrelevancy nobody actually cares for.
    I think it's mostly that SL commits the eight deadly words of fiction: "I don't care what happens to these people."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    Get your COVID booster. It works so much better than horse paste.

  13. #8593
    Wait, so how is there going to be a new Arbiter sigil when there is no more Arbiter? Maybe they can combine the other sigils? But I doubt it...

    And why is Sylvanas being chained up in Oribos? Why not kill her? Why is she being saved for la-

    ...No...

    No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NOOOO!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #8594
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Wait, so how is there going to be a new Arbiter sigil when there is no more Arbiter? Maybe they can combine the other sigils? But I doubt it...

    And why is Sylvanas being chained up in Oribos? Why not kill her? Why is she being saved for la-

    ...No...

    No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NOOOO!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh you realised the Sylvanas Redemption Plan.

  15. #8595
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Oh you realised the Sylvanas Redemption Plan.
    I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

    No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!

  16. #8596
    Dramatic much? Everyone knew Sylvanas would be redeemed the moment she hesitated when talking to Manduin.

    Blizzard's writing is as subtle as a truck honestly

  17. #8597
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

    No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!
    I wouldn't rule out for Sylvanas to become the new Jailer, she and Bolvar are pretty fit for the job. What really puzzles me is what the Jailer threw at her at the end of Sanctum, we are assuming it was her soul splinter but why should the Jailer return it to her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Dramatic much? Everyone knew Sylvanas would be redeemed the moment she hesitated when talking to Manduin.

    Blizzard's writing is as subtle as a truck honestly
    Tbh until Shadowlands cinematic I had some hope they wanted to write Sylvanas as a crazy manipulative bad guy secretly fighting whatever was pulling the strings (the Jailer) willing to do anything to achieve that goal, you would have an evil character but not a straight cartoonish villain

  18. #8598
    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiShade View Post
    I wouldn't rule out for Sylvanas to become the new Jailer, she and Bolvar are pretty fit for the job. What really puzzles me is what the Jailer threw at her at the end of Sanctum, we are assuming it was her soul splinter but why should the Jailer return it to her?
    Because now the Psycho, thanks to her """"""Good""""" soul, can realize all the fucked up shit she has been doing for the last 15 years, including, but not limited to:

    - Human experimentation
    - The creation and use of the Blight
    - The destruction of Gilneas
    - The use of Val'kyrs
    - The attempt at enslaving Odyn's people
    - The bargain with Helya and the Janitor
    - The Burning of Teldrassil
    - The start of the Fourth War
    - The creation of Auschwitz
    - The indoctrination of Derek Proudmoore
    - Etc. etc. etc.

    If she just died she'd get an easy way out. She needs to live, be torn apart by remorse/guilt/disgust at herself, and suffer the wrath of all the people she's ruined.

    Killing her would be the easy way out. Why do you think Hitler killed himself once he realized he lost?

    In other words, the Janitor is just messing with her psychologically.

  19. #8599
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Because now the Psycho, thanks to her """"""Good""""" soul, can realize all the fucked up shit she has been doing for the last 15 years, including, but not limited to:

    - Human experimentation
    - The creation and use of the Blight
    - The destruction of Gilneas
    - The use of Val'kyrs
    - The attempt at enslaving Odyn's people
    - The bargain with Helya and the Janitor
    - The Burning of Teldrassil
    - The start of the Fourth War
    - The creation of Auschwitz
    - The indoctrination of Derek Proudmoore
    - Etc. etc. etc.

    If she just died she'd get an easy way out. She needs to live, be torn apart by remorse/guilt/disgust at herself, and suffer the wrath of all the people she's ruined.

    Killing her would be the easy way out. Why do you think Hitler killed himself once he realized he lost?

    In other words, the Janitor is just messing with her psychologically.
    Pretty sure we forgot some point of that list... busy girl she's been. I fear they want to go the insanity plea route to redeem her and make her forget everything she did all those years, that world be really precious lol.

  20. #8600
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

    No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!
    Hahahaha. I already liked Sylvanas' redemption arc, but this makes it even better. Please Danuser, go through with it and bring us our true Warchief back home.

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