Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

For me this is much too condensed. We need a good topic for future expansions after all.

Suggestion:

10.0: Comeback to a changed world with revamp of Northern Kalimdor plus Lordaeron. Seamles integration of Draeinei and Blood Elven territory, etc. Rebuilding of the new Capitals for Night Elves and Forsaken in focus, but main action is around the Dragon Islands. Groundwork for new lore, rebuiliding for factions, races, etc, hints of big bads. Races like Ogres and Fulborgs. Dragonsworn Class. Etc.

10.1: Evil Dragonflight make their moves. A zone gets infested with Void(Twilight Dragonflight). Another has its timeline broken(Infinite Dragonflight).

10.2: Odyn, always wary of the Dragon Flights, makes his move, returning to Ulduar to take controle over Azeroth. Armies of Titanforged, Val'kyr and more threaten all who oppose, as he tries to reach a special Titan facility surrounded by a new zone.

10.3: Galak'rond is awakened and we battle him and his forces around the final zone and in the last zone.

10.3.5: Yrel's forces arrive to promise us help against the other cosmic forces. At first the Alliance welcomes them openly despite the Horde's warnings, but then ...

11:0-11.3: We follow Yrel's forces to the planet of K'aresh, trying to stop them, as they plan to shift the balance of the cosmic forces in favor of the light. We meet Xal'atath again, who offers to help us in our struggle. Meet exotic places. Maybe visit a place re-/de-formed by the Light. Maybe return to AU Draenor to save survivors/attack their base ... A special feature could be Light or Void customisations for all races.

12:0-12:3: We go to Kezan, where the Goblin Cartels fight amongst themselves for new tech from K'aresh, trade opportunities with the Etherals, etc. A giant underground zone, a new neutral hub as Undermine, Troll Ruins, Old God Temples ... Tinkers would be the new class.

There is a lot of lore Blizz could use and even proberly connect with cosmic stuff.

Considering BFA exists, this plot is imo too spread thin

[Nyel]

Considering BFA exists, this plot is imo too spread thin

Regarding that the story of BfA has been one of its biggest critique point, I think a story that's "spread too thin" is way better than a convoluted mess nobody likes in the end. After BfA and especially after Shadowlands they need something easy and less complicated. Something containing the Light, the Void and Dragons for sure will rival BfA's mess of a story.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Regarding that the story of BfA has been one of its biggest critique point, I think a story that's "spread too thin" is way better than a convoluted mess nobody likes in the end. After BfA and especially after Shadowlands they need something easy and less complicated. Something containing the Light, the Void and Dragons for sure will rival BfA's mess of a story.

I completely agree, and love Hardwing’s suggestion of a plot. We need a clear main storyline and independent zone storylines. In my opinion, WotLK was the closest to this balance.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I mean this expansion was far worse since Sylvanas will be sleeping till 9.2

[Makorus]

Regarding that the story of BfA has been one of its biggest critique point, I think a story that's "spread too thin" is way better than a convoluted mess nobody likes in the end. After BfA and especially after Shadowlands they need something easy and less complicated. Something containing the Light, the Void and Dragons for sure will rival BfA's mess of a story.

In what way was BfA or even Shadowlands "convoluted"?

Like, I would hope that the majority of the playerbase are smart enough to follow a plot that is more than "OK, there is a bad dragon, kill him!"

[Aeluron Lightsong]

In what way was BfA or even Shadowlands "convoluted"?

Like, I would hope that the majority of the playerbase are smart enough to follow a plot that is more than "OK, there is a bad dragon, kill him!"

N'zoth's storyline, Alliance VS Horde. Cause apparently BFA's plot is too hard to follow, or something. Shadowlands is not convoluted, nor is BFA. Its pretty damn clear.

[Nyel]

In what way was BfA or even Shadowlands "convoluted"?

Like, I would hope that the majority of the playerbase are smart enough to follow a plot that is more than "OK, there is a bad dragon, kill him!"

BfA was faction war plus regional conflicts on the new continents plus Azshara plus Old Gods. The faction war / regional conflicts would have made a great expansion, the Azshara / Old God stuff would have made a great expansion. The mix of both resulted in a messy, not-focused storyline that was poorly received.

The lack of focus was the biggest issue as we've changed the focus from (mini) patch to patch. We started with the regional issues / faction war in 8.0 which culminated in Ul'dir (which was solely a regional conflict, Alliance couldn't have bothered at all). Then the focus was faction war again with the new warfront and BoD. All of a sudden Azshara made her move in 8.2 and the focus completely shifted towards that. In 8.2.5 the story was even split further as there was a civil war inside the Horde as well with Sylvanas loyalists vs. Horde / Alliance. And in 8.3 everything faction related was basically removed and it was all of a sudden an Old God climax now.

Writing this alone made me shake my head on how bad BfA has been sequenced. It was a a hot mess. One major plot is more than enough to lead through an entire expansion. Than add bullsh*t like the Night Warrior storyline into the mix and you've got a hodgepodge that tastes like sh*t. That we don't have a conclusion to the Sylvanas storyline as of now doesn't help either. A complex story works, if there is a clear focus, something BfA lacked entirely.

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I completely agree, and love Hardwing’s suggestion of a plot. We need a clear main storyline and independent zone storylines. In my opinion, WotLK was the closest to this balance.

I think Legion did a good job as well in that regard. The scope was far bigger, that's true, but there were no real outliers that felt completely left of the field.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I wouldn't say BfA was convoluted. It was abysmally terrible and they rushed major plot points and characters, but not convoluted.

[Sondrelk]

When we say BfA was convoluted, we don't mean that we personally found it difficult to understand, each plot branch moved perfectly reasonably according to its own internal logic. BfA was however very convoluted in that the bridges between teh storylines were poorly laid out, if they even existed at all.
The faction war ended up having nothing to do with N'zoth, and yet at the end they tried to shoehorn the weakest justification in by having Sylvanas make a deal with Azshara, which was only explained during a blink and you miss it moment in the second phase of N'zoth.

BfA isnt convoluted in htat the story is particularly complicated, the game doesnt even really have time to make it compliated. It is however convoluted in that its almost like 3 different expansions have been crammed together, and each of the stories desperately need to be given more time. At least the gobal Faction War storyline and the N'zoth storyline.

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I wouldn't say BfA was convoluted. It was abysmally terrible and they rushed major plot points and characters, but not convoluted.

It is convoluted in that there is no real consistent throughline that goes from start to finish.
MoP started with faction war spilling over into Pandaria, then slowly going back into faction war at the end.
Legion started with the Legion assaulting, and ended with pushing them back to Argus before defeating them.

BfA started with Sylvanas burning Teldrassil and ended with N'zoth trying to take over the world.'

There was no consistent story that organically led us from Teldrassil burning and global war beginning, towards an ending where we go around Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms beating up N'zoths minions.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

If you're not saying it was complicated or difficult to follow, then by definition it is not convoluted and a different word should be used. Overstuffed and disconnected are definitely more applicable.

[Raetary]

The fact that the story is overstuffed and disconnected makes it complicated and difficult to follow...

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

The fact that the story is overstuffed and disconnected, makes it complicated and difficult to follow...

It's dense, it's disconnected, it's slow, and it's remarkably impersonal despite it's plodding pace and seemingly interesting set of characters.

Because when dealing with the covenants you're so much bigger than them to care, and when dealing with the faction leaders you're so much smaller than them to understand how their minds work.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It is convoluted in that there is no real consistent throughline that goes from start to finish.
MoP started with faction war spilling over into Pandaria, then slowly going back into faction war at the end.
Legion started with the Legion assaulting, and ended with pushing them back to Argus before defeating them.

BfA started with Sylvanas burning Teldrassil and ended with N'zoth trying to take over the world.'

There was no consistent story that organically led us from Teldrassil burning and global war beginning, towards an ending where we go around Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms beating up N'zoths minions.

BFA is not convoluted. Its not that complex of a story or difficult to follow. You see Old God stuff in Stormsong, a dungeon that forshadows Azshara, a mini raid that goes under the earth and inside N'zoth, totally not hinting something soon.

[Lady Atia]

BfA was faction war plus regional conflicts on the new continents plus Azshara plus Old Gods. The faction war / regional conflicts would have made a great expansion, the Azshara / Old God stuff would have made a great expansion. The mix of both resulted in a messy, not-focused storyline that was poorly received.

The lack of focus was the biggest issue as we've changed the focus from (mini) patch to patch. We started with the regional issues / faction war in 8.0 which culminated in Ul'dir (which was solely a regional conflict, Alliance couldn't have bothered at all). Then the focus was faction war again with the new warfront and BoD. All of a sudden Azshara made her move in 8.2 and the focus completely shifted towards that. In 8.2.5 the story was even split further as there was a civil war inside the Horde as well with Sylvanas loyalists vs. Horde / Alliance. And in 8.3 everything faction related was basically removed and it was all of a sudden an Old God climax now.

Writing this alone made me shake my head on how bad BfA has been sequenced. It was a a hot mess. One major plot is more than enough to lead through an entire expansion. Than add bullsh*t like the Night Warrior storyline into the mix and you've got a hodgepodge that tastes like sh*t. That we don't have a conclusion to the Sylvanas storyline as of now doesn't help either. A complex story works, if there is a clear focus, something BfA lacked entirely.

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I think Legion did a good job as well in that regard. The scope was far bigger, that's true, but there were no real outliers that felt completely left of the field.

Uldir was already an old god raid and Azshara was an ally of Zul in the Beta. The whole expansion smelled like Old God/Cata 2.0 expansion from the start.

[Nyel]

Uldir was already an old god raid and Azshara was an ally of Zul in the Beta. The whole expansion smelled like Old God/Cata 2.0 expansion from the start.

That is true, but it doesn't make the overall pacing and sequencing better. From patch to patch we just shifted focus from story A to story B and back again.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Uldir was already an old god raid and Azshara was an ally of Zul in the Beta. The whole expansion smelled like Old God/Cata 2.0 expansion from the start.

I mean if we need to follow the beta to know the real story that's a problem.

[Sondrelk]

BFA is not convoluted. Its not that complex of a story or difficult to follow. You see Old God stuff in Stormsong, a dungeon that forshadows Azshara, a mini raid that goes under the earth and inside N'zoth, totally not hinting something soon.

It starts with a plot that isnt even relevant by the time the expansion ends. Even WoD managed to find a moment to conclusively link the initial Iron Horde plotline with the Legion plotline at the end. The best BfA managed is a weak justification that Sylvanas wants more dead people.

Also I have pointed out before that the Old God stuff in Stormsong and such is about on par with the Naga presence in Legion, and arguably the Naga presence in Legion was more pronounced. That expansion had a full zone dedicated to them, a dungeon, several key characters are related to Azshara in some way, and the third raid had 2 full Naga themed bosses, as well as a Naga world boss.
Beyond that though, the Broken Shore is where we first learned of the origin of the Naga, Elves were important all throughout the expansion, Suramar shows a glimpse of what the old Night Elven empire Azshara ruled looked like.

And yet, despite all these bits of foreshadowing I think most would agree that it would have been silly to have patch 7.3 take place in Nazjatar.
I mean just imagine. Patch 7.2 ends, Kil'jaeden dies, and with his death we see the faction leaders state how now is the time to defeat Azshara, and then we do.
It would be absolute lunacy to think how that story would track. The narrative throughline would have been absolutely nonsensical, not because it couldnt be written to make sense, nor indeed because the Naga would have come from nowhere, but because the story had not established any reason to think that the story that started with the Burning Legion assault on the Broken Shore would have any sense ending with Naga.

[Makorus]

The fact that the story is overstuffed and disconnected makes it complicated and difficult to follow...

What? How in the hell is BfA hard to follow.

The first act is faction war. Horde fights Alliance. There is a Blood God but who cares, Uldir is so irrelevant that nobody even cares. Hints of Azshara throughout the Alliance questing experience.

Second act is Azshara, with a sprinkle of Horde vs Alliance. Oh no, Azshara freed Nzoth.

Third act is Nyalotha, and the conclusion of the faction war. Nothing more.

So in the end, you got two storythreads throughout the expansion, that run concurrently: Faction War and Old God stuff (Uldir->Azshara->Nzoth).

Honestly, if you think that is difficult to follow, then I got bad news for you. Because that is literally how more or less every expansion is set up lol.

Wrath is Old Gods/Lich King. TBC is Illidan/Burning Legion. Cata is really the only expansion where I would say there are too many storythreads. MoP is Mogu/Sha/Faction War. WoD is Iron Horde/Burning Legion. Legion is kind of an outlier, I suppose, because the only story threads that are there throughout the whole expansion is the Burning Legion.

[Sondrelk]

What? How in the hell is BfA hard to follow.

The first act is faction war. Horde fights Alliance. There is a Blood God but who cares, Uldir is so irrelevant that nobody even cares. Hints of Azshara throughout the Alliance questing experience.

Second act is Azshara, with a sprinkle of Horde vs Alliance. Oh no, Azshara freed Nzoth.

Third act is Nyalotha, and the conclusion of the faction war. Nothing more.

So in the end, you got two storythreads throughout the expansion, that run concurrently: Faction War and Old God stuff (Uldir->Azshara->Nzoth).

Honestly, if you think that is difficult to follow, then I got bad news for you. Because that is literally how more or less every expansion is set up lol.

Wrath is Old Gods/Lich King. TBC is Illidan/Burning Legion. Cata is really the only expansion where I would say there are too many storythreads. MoP is Mogu/Sha/Faction War. WoD is Iron Horde/Burning Legion. Legion is kind of an outlier, I suppose, because the only story threads that are there throughout the whole expansion is the Burning Legion.

It's easy to explain the cliffnotes version, but the problems arise when you try to make logical sense of how that expansions story actually functions as a coherent narrative. It honestly reads like two vastly different stories meant to share space. Normally in such a story you would learn at some point what connects them, but this moment never comes in BfA, instead it just ditches one plot point entirely by the end,

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's easy to explain the cliffnotes version, but the problems arise when you try to make logical sense of how that expansions story actually functions as a coherent narrative. It honestly reads like two vastly different stories meant to share space. Normally in such a story you would learn at some point what connects them, but this moment never comes in BfA, instead it just ditches one plot point entirely by the end,

A lot of stories can handle more then one thread, they don't just fixate on one thread in general. This just seems like a personal issue, BFA's story is not hard to follow, it didn't go the way people thought but that doesn't mean convoluted. Or do I again have to explain N'zoth was already pre-established and when you quest in Stormsong he's relevant(Not mentioned but relevant). MoP had two things going on the Pandaria storyline and the Alliance Horde conflict.


Its not completely out of the blue for an expansion to end with a different story thread or theme.

It really doesnt bother you that the final raid of the expansion has absolutely nothing to do with the plot the expansion began as?

No not really cause "The Battle for Azeroth" can mean more then one thing. The somewhat abrupt change in theme really doesn't damage the expansion. Mist wasn't damaged when we suddenly decided to do an about face and face the Thunder King so I don't see much issue with switching theme real quick to spice things up or not overload us(I don't care personally if people claim there is theme fatigue but I don't mind exactly if a theme changes).

Its not even that confusing. You don't go through Stormsong and the Crucible raid and think "HUH since when are we going to fight N'zoth."

Most people knew N'zoth was in our crosshairs.