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  1. #1141
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostdrewid View Post
    I'm very hopeful for Drust resolution in 9.2 but they don't feel big enough to get a raid or anything. Just as long as they give us an actual story conclusion, be it a zone with dailies/WQs or a dungeon or whathaveyou.

    We've defeated the Nathrezim's creator but they're all still out there. Even if they don't have their own get-out-of-death-free cards, they were operating as part of the Legion when they were all last slain, *before* we killed Argus. So they'd make a great villain for 9.2. And if they don't show up then, then they're my bet for 10.x.

    I'm really not sure what to think the 9.3 raid will be, now that we know Torghast is 9.1's raid. We need to deal with the Jailer but to do a second Maw raid would be lame as hell. So hopefully there's some location for him to invade and we stop him just before he gets to his destination. e.g. an Oribos raid and we fight him in front of the Arbiter. It could be actually interesting for us to play the defenders in a raid for once.

    As for 10.x, if the Nathrezim don't form the backbone of the story, then I'm on board with everyone saying we're going up against the Light and the Void. Or hell, all six "alignments" at once: Light vs Void, Order/Titan vs Chaos/Fel, Life vs Death. All of them except the realm of Life [the Emerald Dream but on a universal scale, from the sound of it?] seem to mean us harm on some level or another. And yeah I know that the Titan vs. Fel battle is "resolved", but is it? Sargeras isn't dead he's just contained, and while Argus is dead there's still the entire rest of the Burning Legion's army. Just because they're no longer infinite didn't make them all go away.

    It really, to me, feels like the machinations of the Nathrezim are the ultimate enemy we face right now, and they're wormed in deep enough in all of these realms that it isn't difficult for them to throw any or all of them at us.
    I think in 9.1, we’ll defeat Mal’ganis and co, but Zovaal wins in the end. Then in 9.2, it’ll be about the Gardens of Life, finishing off the Drust completely, us teaming up with the Pantheon of Life, and stopping the Jailer from getting the Winter Queen’s key and gaining the opportunity of controlling the power of Life.

    Then, 9.3 could be about Denathrius being freed, the Jailer transversing through the in between to reach Oribos, and us + the eternal ones + the pantheon of life saving Oribos and the Arbiter from Zovaal’s rampage. The raid could end with the Arbiter being awakened and her empowering us to slam tf outta Zovaal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    If Zovaal is an Eternal One like Winter Queen, Archon, Denathrius etc, why would he be stronger than them?
    Because he wields different Magic’s and amps that empower him a ton? Blizzard’s stated multiple times that the Jailer’s been growing stronger throughout the expansion.

    Why do you think Sargeras is stronger than the entire Titan Pantheon despite him being a Titan? Cause of the Fel both making him oppose arcane Magic’s well, as well as the fact that the Fel juiced him up. The same way Anima, and Domination Magic’s are amping the Jailer up.

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    Besides, we already finished the main plot of Order Vs Disorder. I wouldn’t be shocked if maybe we face Sargeras at the Seat of the Pantheon and go to the realm of Order, and I wouldn’t be shocked if there are Order cults or some shit like that, but outside of that, the main point of that conflict is done.

    And outside of Life and Death, all that really remains is Light and Shadow.
    Last edited by HighlordJohnstone; 2021-03-24 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #1142
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Considering Zovaal is said to be Titan plus plus level, the very fact that he is not yet free from the Maw suggests to me that the average Eternal One might be at least a little bit stronger than average Titans. Also we don't really know much of how Zovaal was bound. Maybe he was depowered during the binding process and it took him his gradual increase in power to reach normal Eternal One levels.

    But beyond actual powerlevel, we have narrative significance. Blizzard is writing backwards instead of forward. New players are retconned in that trivialize threats before we even meet them. And that is my problem.

  3. #1143
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Considering Zovaal is said to be Titan plus plus level, the very fact that he is not yet free from the Maw suggests to me that the average Eternal One might be at least a little bit stronger than average Titans. Also we don't really know much of how Zovaal was bound. Maybe he was depowered during the binding process and it took him his gradual increase in power to reach normal Eternal One levels.

    But beyond actual powerlevel, we have narrative significance. Blizzard is writing backwards instead of forward. New players are retconned in that trivialize threats before we even meet them. And that is my problem.
    There is no retconning, you are just spamming the word without any reason to other then as some slight against Blizzard. Zovaal has been called Titan++ but we don't even know what that means and frankly I don't care too much until its clarified. Zovaal was clearly on the same level of his fellow eternal ones. The Maw growing and his shennigans on Azeroth is clearly making him more powerful not to mention all the anima that was hoarded by Sire was just given to the Maw. Its not sheer raw power that makes him a threat, its what he knows, he already created another mourneblade(Thanks to Primecarver) and anything related to domination magic. He's also clever and knows how to read someone if they are useful.


    You don't need raw power at your disposal to do the worst things imagnable, it helps but its not the end all be all.
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  4. #1144
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    There is no retconning
    So the Frostmourne and the Lich King's armor was always stolen from the Shadowlands? Whoops, nope. Hell the dynamic between Sargeras and the Nathrezim changed many times over the years. Who corrupted whom and why was constantly rewritten.

  5. #1145
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    There is no retconning, you are just spamming the word without any reason to other then as some slight against Blizzard. Zovaal has been called Titan++ but we don't even know what that means and frankly I don't care too much until its clarified. Zovaal was clearly on the same level of his fellow eternal ones. The Maw growing and his shennigans on Azeroth is clearly making him more powerful not to mention all the anima that was hoarded by Sire was just given to the Maw. Its not sheer raw power that makes him a threat, its what he knows, he already created another mourneblade(Thanks to Primecarver) and anything related to domination magic. He's also clever and knows how to read someone if they are useful.


    You don't need raw power at your disposal to do the worst things imagnable, it helps but its not the end all be all.
    John Height does actually confirm the Jailer's power as a threat, since with the drought, etc, the Jailer's power is growing infinitely, but yes. He's got a lot of factors that could help him win here outside of power. All he has to do is get the Eternal Ones' keys, break free from the Maw, slay the Arbiter, and that's it. Once he slays the Arbiter, he controls Death itself, and therefore he can take over Life, and with it, he can destroy everything the First Ones made AKA complete his plan to unmake the entire Warcraft Universe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    So the Frostmourne and the Lich King's armor was always stolen from the Shadowlands? Whoops, nope. Hell the dynamic between Sargeras and the Nathrezim changed many times over the years. Who corrupted whom and why was constantly rewritten.
    Actually, the old lore isn't far off with the current narrative, since the Dreadlords actually did manage to mindfuck Sargeras.

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    Only difference is that the Dreadlords used the Void Lords as bait for Sargeras' insanity.

  6. #1146
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post

    Only difference is that the Dreadlords used the Void Lords as bait for Sargeras' insanity.
    And that the whole thing was on the Jailer's orlders because he wants more death to fuel his power and an army of demons could cause just that.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Because he wields different Magic’s and amps that empower him a ton? Blizzard’s stated multiple times that the Jailer’s been growing stronger throughout the expansion.

    Why do you think Sargeras is stronger than the entire Titan Pantheon despite him being a Titan? Cause of the Fel both making him oppose arcane Magic’s well, as well as the fact that the Fel juiced him up. The same way Anima, and Domination Magic’s are amping the Jailer up.
    Wasn't Zoovals domination magic mainly used by the primus before? Would be weird if his new power up is an already existing magic especially when he defeated the Primus who most likely was more skilled in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    And that the whole thing was on the Jailer's orlders because he wants more death to fuel his power and an army of demons could cause just that.
    But for the majority of the legions geneocidal rampage the machine of death was not broken meaning it helped the rest of the shadowlands, but maybe he wanted them to kill the majority, probably because of their use of fel that could overall weaken the shadowlands, or maybe Denathrius was collecting anima since then.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by rainhard View Post
    Wasn't Zoovals domination magic mainly used by the primus before? Would be weird if his new power up is an already existing magic especially when he defeated the Primus who most likely was more skilled in it.
    So? If Zovaal got the drop on him, that means nothing.

  9. #1149
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    But for the majority of the legions geneocidal rampage the machine of death was not broken meaning it helped the rest of the shadowlands, but maybe he wanted them to kill the majority, probably because of their use of fel that could overall weaken the shadowlands, or maybe Denathrius was collecting anima since then.
    He wanted Azeroth, and the Legion was a way to get there, hence Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. It sorta failed but it seems clear that he wasn't just gonna get angry and quit. He seemed to move on to the next idea.
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  10. #1150
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    He wanted Azeroth, and the Legion was a way to get there, hence Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. It sorta failed but it seems clear that he wasn't just gonna get angry and quit. He seemed to move on to the next idea.
    Well, he doesn't just want Azeroth. He wants to destroy the entire Warcraft verse. The only reason he used Azeroth VIA the Lich King was because the Legion wanted Azeroth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainhard View Post
    Wasn't Zoovals domination magic mainly used by the primus before? Would be weird if his new power up is an already existing magic especially when he defeated the Primus who most likely was more skilled in it.

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    But for the majority of the legions geneocidal rampage the machine of death was not broken meaning it helped the rest of the shadowlands, but maybe he wanted them to kill the majority, probably because of their use of fel that could overall weaken the shadowlands, or maybe Denathrius was collecting anima since then.
    No. It was just regular ass rune magics. Domination seems to be a Jailer made thing.

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    Also, of course the machine of Death was still fine. Zovaal's plan is gonna take a pretty fuckin long time, ya know. Besides, once the machine of Death dies, all current anima will be wasted to keep the covenant zones stable, so it's not like those souls mattered to begin with. The Legion's downfall is apparently key for Zovaal's plan, as he also used the Legion to bring about the Lich King, who was supposed to be the key in bringing the Jailer to the physical Universe so that he could: A. Beat down reality to his will. And B. Rob Sargeras of his prize and dominate Azeroth's world soul.

    Having a Titan serving him would tip the balance of power to his favor, but that in itself will not be the main factor in taking the Cosmos. He also needs more power (AKA the drought and the Eternal One's keys), he needs to dismantle Order/Disorder (VIA the Titans being fucked, the Legion being made and dismantled enough so that the Cosmos would be harmed enough to be weakened, and a Titan serving Zovaal), he needs to defeat Light and Shadow (Weaken the Light VIA the Legion attacking them, and use the Void as a ploy so that the Light wouldn't focus on Death. Therefore, once Zovaal kills the Arbiter, Light and Shadow get fucked in the process), and he needs to kill the Arbiter (Doing this will make him the master of Death itself, and gain the power needed to dismantle Life, the other cosmic powers, and the entire Warcraft Universe).

    This is the Jailer's plan. And the Dreadlords were but step 1 of that plan. Or, should I say the "preface" of it. The Jailer also needs the "secrets of the First Ones", and we have no idea what that is yes. Maybe the secret is us? Who knows. What we do know is that the Jailer is quite possibly our greatest foe yet...

    Until we face Warcraft's literal fuckin' Outer Gods, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So? If Zovaal got the drop on him, that means nothing.
    Why would that mean nothing? The dude's the best tactician in the Shadowlands. How the fuck would dropping him mean nothing? Gotta keep that bitch. That's a fuckin trophy right there. His key is even more needed, and that shit is 100% in the Sepulcher of Knowledge, which is probably going to get invaded by the Mawsworn early on in the patch.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    How the fuck would dropping him mean nothing?
    "Getting the drop on someone" means being able to strike first, like for example in an ambush. Not throwing them away.

    Also, Blizzard stated at BlizzCon that the Primus was a master of Domination magic, which is why he had the blueprints for the helm and Frostmourne. Those runes all over the place on the soulforges in the Maw, Frostmourne and even Zovaal himself are specficially Domination magic runes.

  12. #1152
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    "Getting the drop on someone" means being able to strike first, like for example in an ambush. Not throwing them away.

    Also, Blizzard stated at BlizzCon that the Primus was a master of Domination magic, which is why he had the blueprints for the helm and Frostmourne. Those runes all over the place on the soulforges in the Maw, Frostmourne and even Zovaal himself are specficially Domination magic runes.
    I see...

    Also, he was confirmed to have the blueprints of the Helm and Frostmourne? Uhuh...

    UHUH!!!

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    "Your grandest DESIGN to claim the final prize" "Yes, YOUR finest mournblade"

    UHUH!!!!!!!!!

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    Mf's saying they ain't the same cause of 1 extra finger. PAHAHAHA!!!!

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    Also, huh, what if Azeroth isn't JUST a Titan, cause IF she is in fact the secret that the First Ones sought to hide, then uh oh.

    We could definitely have it like this:

    9.1: We defend the zones from the Jailer's attacks, we invade the Maw, we fight the Primus, we fight Mal'ganis/Kel'Thuzad/Helya/and Sylvanas, the Jailer claims the Primus' key and fucks us all up. Oh, and we learn about the First Ones, why we're able to activate their relics, and wtf Azeroth actually is (She may be a Titan imbued with the blessings of the First Ones, but who knows). The Maw grows bigger, and we're left in defeat.

    9.2: Gardens of Life patch with the Realm of Life, a functional First Ones city as the raid, etc.

    9.3: The Jailer escapes the Maw, we get a raid that features 3 main areas: The Inbetween, Oribos, and Azeroth. The battle ends with the Eternal Ones, the Arbiter, the Pantheon of Life, and potentially the First Ones themselves helping us face off against the Jailer on Azeroth, and winning. Zovaal tries to do a clutch attack and tries to destroy the entire Warcraft verse, we stop him from doing that, Zovaal falls, and we win. Woohoo. That, or we don't even go to Azeroth, and the Jailer rips a hole through reality from the Arbiter's seat, and that's the closest he'll get to Azeroth itself. Idk tho.

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    Either way though, that could lead directly into the conflict between Light and Shadow, as well as Sargeras being extra fucking pissed at us. The Cosmos has a massive rift, the Void Lords are fuckin ready to invade, the Light is openly all across Azeroth and AU Draenor, and Sargeras' rage at the Seat of the Pantheon is reaching its peak.

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    That would be the perfect way of ending off the expansion, while also giving us some breathing time before 10.0 starts.

  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I see...

    Also, he was confirmed to have the blueprints of the Helm and Frostmourne? Uhuh...
    You're a bit late to the party here. This has been blatantly obvious for what, 4 months now?

  14. #1154
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Could also give us the perfect chance to figure out wtf 10.0's pre-patch could be, which, if we wanna use this narrative, could be a potential Siege of Stormwind, or a Defense of Stormwind event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You're a bit late to the party here. This has been blatantly obvious for what, 4 months now?
    That's legit a fact that's been going over my head for a long time now, cause it's literally only mentioned at Blizzcon.

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    That's legit a fact that's been going over my head for a long time now, cause it's literally only mentioned at Blizzcon.
    We've been told that he was one of the Shadowlands' best runesmiths during the leveling part of Maldraxxus, and then we meet the Runecarver. They might as well just have called him The Primus, for all its worth.

  16. #1156
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    He wanted Azeroth, and the Legion was a way to get there, hence Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. It sorta failed but it seems clear that he wasn't just gonna get angry and quit. He seemed to move on to the next idea.
    I though he needed the Lich King to be his proxy because he personally can't get out of the Maw but needs all the keys to unlock "The Secrets of the First Ones"

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    No. It was just regular ass rune magics. Domination seems to be a Jailer made thing.
    So the blueprints of the mourneblades and helm and the vessels of domination were in the primus for no reason. and the jailers domination jail came to be from a mystery? (i think somewhere in blizzcon we learned the primus was the original domination user could be wrong though)

  18. #1158
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainhard View Post
    So the blueprints of the mourneblades and helm and the vessels of domination were in the primus for no reason. and the jailers domination jail came to be from a mystery? (i think somewhere in blizzcon we learned the primus was the original domination user could be wrong though)
    It was Primus's own designs, Zovaal took the memories of them and used them for his own purposes hence the scene where we see the Jailer basically torturing the memories out of him.
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  19. #1159
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainhard View Post
    So the blueprints of the mourneblades and helm and the vessels of domination were in the primus for no reason. and the jailers domination jail came to be from a mystery? (i think somewhere in blizzcon we learned the primus was the original domination user could be wrong though)
    Me and Huth already talked about this, but apparently you're right in that Domination Magics were of the Primus.

    This patch should heavily be about the Primus. There's no way the Runecarver isn't him.

  20. #1160
    Bloodsail Admiral Gifdwarf's Avatar
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    The Runecarver/Primus finger thing seems more like an oversight tbh

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