Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

It's assumed that Faol was part of the scourge at some point, which is why wowpedia put it there. Fan wikia are havens of fan theories & headcanon. But its never specified in game if that ever happened. Just like how we see new undead pop up throughout the timeline that act independently of the Lich King.

Also never specified: That the plague of Undeath has anything to do with domination magic. Because how would it? We even see a completely separate source of undeath in Maldraxxus. You're just doubling down on your theory when there is no direct correlation.

[Zers Editor]

Her feelings are also consistent with undeath as it's been depicted. The explanation regarding the misalignment of souls serves to explain her feelings just fine. While I agree that at the prospect of eternal torture anyone would fold, that has no bearing on soul splitting as a plot device as compared to undeath. The only thing that soul splitting allows that undeath does not is to absolve Sylvanas of responsibility with the implication that the character of fifteen years was not 'herself' as she did those actions. And even that's dubious, since as a cop-out undeath allows the same by having the same scenario except having the Jailer align her soul instead of put it back together.

This may work ONLY if Sylvanas with her full soul intact does something her half-soul-Banshee-self would NEVER do.

[Hugnomo]

It's assumed that Faol was part of the scourge at some point, which is why wowpedia put it there. Fan wikia are havens of fan theories & headcanon. But its never specified in game if that ever happened. Just like how we see new undead pop up throughout the timeline that act independently of the Lich King.

Also never specified: That the plague of Undeath has anything to do with domination magic. Because how would it? We even see a completely separate source of undeath in Maldraxxus. You're just doubling down on your theory when there is no direct correlation.

As opposed to fan forums right? No assumptions or headcanon there ...
My god, how insufferable. I'm not saying undeath by itself is explicitly connected. I'm saying the vast majority of Forsaken were mindcontrolled by domination magic which is canon, factual. That's it.

[Hellspawn]

I would not shed a tear if they kill/remove the forsaken Night Elfs offscreen.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I would not shed a tear if they kill/remove the forsaken Night Elfs offscreen.

Most have moved on from that.....unigue thing.

[Chickat]

Hopefully ptr in 3 or 4 days. I know we are likely 3 or 4 months away from 10.0 announcement but I wish it was at th game awards as unlikely as it is. I just wanna know.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Hopefully ptr in 3 or 4 days. I know we are likely 3 or 4 months away from 10.0 announcement but I wish it was at th game awards as unlikely as it is. I just wanna know.

A live audience announcement at this time would probably not be wise. I'm just imagining the Activizion/Blizzard logo showing up during TGA and boos coming int.

[Three Faced Goddess]

Now that I've cooled off and am more rationally minded than last night, I'd like to say that yes, I acted irrationally and I'm sorry. I lost my temper and acted out. I need to keep angry me away from the computer. It's like drunk tweets except I'm pissed. I just wished you could all see where I'm coming from with my frustrations. Between the fanbase constantly shitting on me, people chastising me for bringing up valid complaints about the lore, writing and overall poor implementation of a story and having most of the things I've loved in game neutered or pulverized, I haven't had any positive experience in Shadowlands whatsoever. My guild of many years is dying and all of my friends are leaving due to many problems with the game, but a majority of them who loved the lore and characters hate the writing and lore now chose to leave because of it.

Everything is made worse by the fact that Shadowlands is the second non-quality expansion in a row and then the shit the lawsuit uncovered... Most of this anger comes from the love that I, for some reason, still have for the game. I want to see it grow and improve in what it does and doesn't do well. I see the numerous ways that WoW could evolve and change for the better and then I see all of that potential squandered left and right. Even after the cinematic pissed me off, I decided to give Shadowlands another chance because I saw that it held promise to be awesome. The art team certainly carried, but that's one aspect that seldom fails. Ardenweald is beautiful. Revendreth is my gothic sanctuary.

For every glimpse of greatness Shadowlands had, there were wasted characters/lore/plot strings, mishandled characters/lore/plot strings and blatantly bad decisions. Even though I deeply disagree with how they handled the helm of domination, I can admit that the story wasn't bad so much as it was poorly implemented and improperly handled. It also had the disadvantage of continuing the plot points from BFA and not to mention the Jailer is a terrible villain.

Honestly if Blizz did this smartly they could yeah solve a lot of problems with the Forsaken right there. Also potentially justify how new Forsaken can continue to be made in 10.0 onward.

But I still have this nagging fear they won't and instead the Scourge will just disappear and the Forsaken will somehow keep showing up. And when asked why Iron won't touch the lore and just say "Well we weren't going to remove a playable race."

Sadly, I think you're right. It's growing unlikelier and unlikelier that the Scourge won't blink out of existence and that the major problems the Forsaken face after a combination of last expansion and this ones plot will be dealt with satisfactorily, if at all. They've written themselves into a corner where almost any option they take is disadvantageous and unsatisfactory. There's no easy way out for them at this point.

Any choice they make is going to upset Forsaken fans and do more damage to the race. The best choice would be the one that pisses off the least people and does the least damage. After Shadowlands, I doubt the Forsaken will see much screen time or be developed in any meaningful way as it appears Blizz is about to close death and undeath plotline, possibly for good. Removing Sylvanas, who was basically the face and foundation of Forsaken society, someone they held an almost religious sort of reverence for shattered the race's identity and then they lost their ancestral home that they died for to boot. They've got no purpose beyond surviving and no direction. I hope to be proven wrong, though. I love the Forsaken. I also love the Night Elves. I guess this is what I get for loving two of Blizzard's least favorite races.

I am calm? Where did my post indicate I wasn’t ? Honestly, if anyone needs to calm down it’s you, buddy. I’m just having a discussion.

Don't pay any attention to them. They seem to think they're the moral judicator of the forums. They don't like it when you have gripes about the story either.

The whole “there must always be a Lich King” thing was stupid as all hell so I’ve no issue with them tossing away the helm of domination to make the arbiter crown.

And I'm fine with that. You have that right. I disagree with you, but I do so respectfully. Perhaps, I wouldn't have minded what happened with it as bad if they had done so more respectfully and with the attention destroying such an artifact would be due. Besides one quest in the Kyrian campaign, the Scourge rampage is all but forgotten when the denizens of Azeroth and Azeroth herself should be barely holding out. BFA depleted the forces of both factions. There should be some real damage done when we get back, but I doubt that will be the case. I just don't want to see it handwaved away.

While using the hat to complete the neutering of the Forsaken begun in BTS would be a good way to make sure that they get to suffer the same dicking as their opposite number in an expansion where Blizzard's other red-headed stepchild the night elves had their goddess turned into a moron, I doubt it'll happen as that'd require anyone on the writing team to recall that they still exist.

The Scourge being active is not something to fix, it's something to utilize in future stories as the element of a setting to bring back the undead into focus into a depleted world. They won't do this, of course, but they should.

Exactly. If Blizzard keeps throwing antagonistic forces out at this rate they'll be nothing of the old and familiar left. We'll be stuck with more characters (I use that word loosely) like the Jailer and that thought makes me cringe. If they just handwave the Scourge, it'll almost guarantee the end of undead involvement in WoW. Fuck, the night elves and forsaken were done so dirty these past two expansions.

Also, TheFirstOnes never chastise me again. I can do that perfectly well on my own, thanks. I don't appreciate you belittling my feelings on the matter as nothing either. I don't point fingers at you when you're obsessing over the First Ones.

[Hugnomo]

For every glimpse of greatness Shadowlands had, there were wasted characters/lore/plot strings, mishandled characters/lore/plot strings and blatantly bad decisions. Even though I deeply disagree with how they handled the helm of domination, I can admit that the story wasn't bad so much as it was poorly implemented and improperly handled. It also had the disadvantage of continuing the plot points from BFA and not to mention the Jailer is a terrible villain.

Sadly, I think you're right. It's growing unlikelier and unlikelier that the Scourge won't blink out of existence and that the major problems the Forsaken face after a combination of last expansion and this ones plot will be dealt with satisfactorily, if at all. They've written themselves into a corner where almost any option they take is disadvantageous and unsatisfactory. There's no easy way out for them at this point.

Any choice they make is going to upset Forsaken fans and do more damage to the race. The best choice would be the one that pisses off the least people and does the least damage. After Shadowlands, I doubt the Forsaken will see much screen time or be developed in any meaningful way as it appears Blizz is about to close death and undeath plotline, possibly for good. Removing Sylvanas, who was basically the face and foundation of Forsaken society, someone they held an almost religious sort of reverence for shattered the race's identity and then they lost their ancestral home that they died for to boot. They've got no purpose beyond surviving and no direction. I hope to be proven wrong, though. I love the Forsaken. I also love the Night Elves. I guess this is what I get for loving two of Blizzard's least favorite races.

While I personally rarely feel as negative and "blackpilled" about WoW as most people, I will concede that I agree with some of the things stated here.
The expansion is coming to an end, and the forsaken were barely present, which is baffling. I'm sure they'll factor in some small way at the end, but I don't think it's enough for *the* death expansion.
What WoD did for orcs and draenei, Bfa for trolls and humans, Shadowlands should have at least spotlighted the Forsaken in some way, as our prominent death related race, deeply connected to the plot of the expansion, as victims of the lich king/domination magic/jailer.

I guess many of the frustrations for me are the same as they always were, which is that WoW is a very difficult or inadequate vehicle to tell a story.
Too little narrative content. Paced incredibly far apart. Obvious characters and plots that should have come into play are often sidelined, ignored, given a line of dialogue or implied to interact off screen. While we get a more basic campaign that rarely amounts to anything meaningful to the plot, with less significant characters. The plotline barely manages to include just a handful of characters, and even then, they always feel undeveloped, actions unexplained, motives unknown. The cinematics and art team are amazing. But they're given too much to do. A 2 min cinematic doing the heavy lifting of fitting as much narrative in that small amount of time. When we have thousands of quests that could integrate better into the narrative and let it unfold more seamlessly.

I don't know. It's an old problem.
I really feel like 10.0 needs to shake things up and bring something different.

[Three Faced Goddess]

While I personally rarely feel as negative and "blackpilled" about WoW as most people, I will concede that I agree with some of the things stated here.
The expansion is coming to an end, and the forsaken were barely present, which is baffling. I'm sure they'll factor in some small way at the end, but I don't think it's enough for *the* death expansion.
What WoD did for orcs and draenei, Bfa for trolls and humans, Shadowlands should have at least spotlighted the Forsaken in some way, as our prominent death related race, deeply connected to the plot of the expansion, as victims of the lich king/domination magic/jailer.

I guess many of the frustrations for me are the same as they always were, which is that WoW is a very difficult or inadequate vehicle to tell a story.
Too little narrative content. Paced incredibly far apart. Obvious characters and plots that should have come into play are often sidelined, ignored, given a line of dialogue or implied to interact off screen. While we get a more basic campaign that rarely amounts to anything meaningful to the plot, with less significant characters. The plotline barely manages to include just a handful of characters, and even then, they always feel undeveloped, actions unexplained, motives unknown. The cinematics and art team are amazing. But they're given too much to do. A 2 min cinematic doing the heavy lifting of fitting as much narrative in that small amount of time. When we have thousands of quests that could integrate better into the narrative and let it unfold more seamlessly.

I don't know. It's an old problem.
I really feel like 10.0 needs to shake things up and bring something different.

You've stated a lot of my major discontent with the story and lore in your middle paragraph. I agree that it's definitely an old problem and maybe I've just grown less tolerant of it over the years or because I've been exposed to games with better writing and just refused to accept that I'm not gonna get that through WoW.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

While I personally rarely feel as negative and "blackpilled" about WoW as most people, I will concede that I agree with some of the things stated here.
The expansion is coming to an end, and the forsaken were barely present, which is baffling. I'm sure they'll factor in some small way at the end, but I don't think it's enough for *the* death expansion.
What WoD did for orcs and draenei, Bfa for trolls and humans, Shadowlands should have at least spotlighted the Forsaken in some way, as our prominent death related race, deeply connected to the plot of the expansion, as victims of the lich king/domination magic/jailer.

I guess many of the frustrations for me are the same as they always were, which is that WoW is a very difficult or inadequate vehicle to tell a story.
Too little narrative content. Paced incredibly far apart. Obvious characters and plots that should have come into play are often sidelined, ignored, given a line of dialogue or implied to interact off screen. While we get a more basic campaign that rarely amounts to anything meaningful to the plot, with less significant characters. The plotline barely manages to include just a handful of characters, and even then, they always feel undeveloped, actions unexplained, motives unknown. The cinematics and art team are amazing. But they're given too much to do. A 2 min cinematic doing the heavy lifting of fitting as much narrative in that small amount of time. When we have thousands of quests that could integrate better into the narrative and let it unfold more seamlessly.

I don't know. It's an old problem.
I really feel like 10.0 needs to shake things up and bring something different.

The pacing is mostly related to getting the whole team onto WFH and I guess its still not the same as all meeting up in the same building. Take that out of the equation(And the pandemic). Any expansion would suffer from it and I don't think its nearly as badly as this forum loves to push. unfortunately due to <WORLD EVENTS HERE> that may not change.

I'm not gonna judge until I've seen all of it and until that happens well the worst I'll call SL is potential(Again).

[Ersula]

As opposed to fan forums right? No assumptions or headcanon there ...
My god, how insufferable. I'm not saying undeath by itself is explicitly connected. I'm saying the vast majority of Forsaken were mindcontrolled by domination magic which is canon, factual. That's it.

That's what we call, moving a goal post. You said "ALL forsaken" so I corrected you, but now it's "the vast majorty"

- - - Updated - - -

Most have moved on from that.....unigue thing.

I wonder how many people actually saw the Forsaken unification cutscene. You had to be Horde, and 100% complete the War Campaign without going Sylvanas Loyalist. It sure did feel like an allied race cutscene, complete with giving them unique mounts. (giant versions of Nathanos' hounds ??? )

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Hopefully ptr in 3 or 4 days. I know we are likely 3 or 4 months away from 10.0 announcement but I wish it was at th game awards as unlikely as it is. I just wanna know.

I would be very surprised if it doesn't drop this week. Blizz is nothing if not predictable.

[TheFirstOnes]

Well, you did a pretty poor job of it with how your post was addressing me.

Tf was I going to say? Please? I’m not being rude here. If I was rude, sorry however.

[Super Dickmann]

This may work ONLY if Sylvanas with her full soul intact does something her half-soul-Banshee-self would NEVER do.

It's impossible to work for two reasons. First is that due to the last three expansions Sylvanas has pivoted so freely between motives, personalities and even the tone of her character that there's few actions she couldn't take. The second is that it's inherently a cop-out. It's anti-character development as Sylvanas neither learns from her mistakes organically or suffers the consequences of them completely. Instead she has a switch flipped that changes her traits. It's unsatisfying by default. Even the plot beat discussed earlier in the thread where she takes responsibility and gets judged voluntarily instead of being forced into judgment, which would be character development in other hands, is turned bunk because it's not quite the same character making the decision so it loses dramatic heft. Soul-splitting was a mistake. It was a mistake back in Wrath too, but at least there the story with Matthias culminated in going "No, actually, Arthas really is responsible, let's ice the motherfucker".

@The Banshee

The reality rewrite business can be used as all purpose plot insulation to expand and return other threats instead of dumping them. It's a powerful plot contrivance that Blizzard could easily use to their advantage and to improve the stories told going forward. They likely won't do it, but still.

Also re: the rest of your post, the me from some years ago would consider the Forsaken not being featured in an expansion entirely about (un)death a colossal fuck-up. I can't muster any anger of the kind I had at the orcs being dicked out of fighting the Legion though simply because the current state of the Forsaken is such a parody of their former selves that having them raid their faction leader the way the orcs had to raid their Warchief and kill large swathes of their WC2 cast (sometimes twice) with Calia cheering on could only make it worse. There's a story to be told about reconsidering their Cata motive shift or even their existence in light of the afterlife, but it shouldn't be told because it'd only further wreck the race. The most pro-Forsaken ending is for them to continue not to appear and to have Sylvanas' character wrap-up in a way that makes her palatable in their eyes and that gives them a reason to remain in the setting.

[Chickat]

Shadowlands will never go down as a great exapnsion, but if they kill it with the raid and outdoor content it could rank above WoD, Cata, and BFA for me. It already ranks as well as WoD. The very existence of a 9.2 pushes it past WoD into Cata territory.

[Nyel]

Hopefully ptr in 3 or 4 days. I know we are likely 3 or 4 months away from 10.0 announcement but I wish it was at the game awards as unlikely as it is. I just wanna know.

I wouldn't give up all of my hopes just yet.

[Super Dickmann]

Shadowlands will never go down as a great exapnsion, but if they kill it with the raid and outdoor content it could rank above WoD, Cata, and BFA for me. It already ranks as well as WoD. The very existence of a 9.2 pushes it past WoD into Cata territory.

While I've a soft spot for Cata for other reasons, in terms of raid content it'd be hard to not top the worst end of expansion raid ever put out in Dragon Soul.

[Chickat]

While I've a soft spot for Cata for other reasons, in terms of raid content it'd be hard to not top the worst end of expansion raid ever put out in Dragon Soul.

For a pure raider I can see why WoD would be better, but Cata had more to do for a casual like I was at the time. Grinding valor in heroics for great gear, firelands normal runs at the end of Cata, lfr at the time. It was pretty decent. Total lack of outdoor content other than the excellent imo Molten Front, but. Cata could have been great. WoD too. Shadowlands probably couldn't have had a good story, but a Legion-like patch cadence with 9.3 coming in early 2022, and it would have been close to as good as Legion probably.

[Cherry123]

It's funny if the PTR was released on December 4-7. It will look pathetic from blizzard.