Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Cosmic Janitor]

It wasn't "broken" if you mean his argument. His argument was the First One's design was flawed/unfair to the souls involved.

If you refer to broken as in the Arbiter being broken, the covenants had lost touch with each other(not specified if it was right after they banished Zovaal or much later) and the attendants were keeping it hush hush otherwise as that's made pretty evident as they take us away to show us rather than tell us right there. The whole "purpose" hasn't been the Arbiter, but rather then First Ones obviously or even at this point the 4 cov leader's interpretation of the First One's purpose. The attendants are so devoted to all of this it's pretty obvious they wouldn't spread word that the Arbiter was broken. Everything has been and is setting up the covenants to be wrong at worst and misguided at best, but due to time constraints and people being unable to follow a simple story, they may just forgo it all.

This isn't on the people this is purely on the incompetent writing and framing. In the case of ardenweald they already had to forsake their purpose and sacrifice entire glades (yet for some reason they kept parasites like the troll loa around..) for their anima and yet no one bothered to check what the fuck is wrong with no anima coming through. The eternal ones know how the machine of death works, they should know that something is amiss. In the case of the Kyrians you have them flying to Oribos all the time and not a single one thought to report that all souls are being funneled into the maw? This maybe be plausible with a rinky dinky operation that has 10-100 people looking away, but it becomes unbelievable when it's on the scale of all life in the universe. If you want to blame this all on the attendants in Oribos then there should have been covenant representatives constantly petitioning them for an answer, oribos should have been shut and been designed entirely different visually to facilitate this plot. The way it is though, no, everyone can see from a distance that something is amiss.

[Chickat]

Galakrond returns bigger and badder
We have no aspects, fewer keepers, and in terms of power our forces are still recovering from recent events

Wrathion has discovered a new way to empower the aspects and it lies in the dragon isles a floating land mass

We need to find nozdormu to help us locate them. If he helps us he becomes moruzond because in helping us it prevents his original death soon to be at the hands of galakrond. He helps us by searching the time ways and is twisted before our eyes and leaves

With galakrond screwing up the world slowly due to his new body the scarlet crusade uses this to their advantage and tries to blame anduin and install their own king supposedly the heir to lordaeron but is actually a black dragon in disguise and the last surviving whelp of onyxia.

The dragons on the isles don’t like outsiders ever since they originally lifted the isles into the sky away from the troubles of the mortals below.

So would Galakrond be the final boss or Morozond? Perhaps Moro would not even be a boss to stretch villains for future expansions.

[TheFirstOnes]

Your first sentence is reasonable and I accept your expanation.

Your next two sentences are ridiculous, and I think you miss the point of people who say that stuff. You have to understand that the core of Warcraft is in Azeroth. Even when we left Azeroth early on back in BC, the designers made sure to take key elements of the WC1-3 and Vanilla WoW story into Outland. Outland felt extremely connected to Azeroth and frankly still does. It feels like a natural extension of it. We could easily go back to Outland in a future expansion.

The same cannot be said of the Shadowlands. They feel distinctly alien in a way that is not relatable with the majority of players and it clearly seems intentional. That's a bad thing. When you move away from your core identity, you will get complaints. The designers don't just get to make whatever they want, they have to stay within the confines of what's already been established.

There are certainly elements of the Shadowlands that are cool, but they make an unnecessary effort to build up a world that is not relatable. Do you remember the beginning of the expansion late in 2020 when people were basically calling the Shadowlands hell? Bastion's story and atmosphere felt very inhuman and cruel, even machine-like. The covenants and zone's characters (aside from the obvious story baits like Uther, Kael etc.) do not have any real connection to Azeroth.

It doesn't help that the Shadowlands story retcons so much shit to hell and back that it is simply unreasonable.

Tf? No they didn’t. WC 3 retcons and changes so much shit from WC2, same with 1.

- - - Updated - - -

They even changed most of Illidans story cause to many players, him goin insane was a dumb fucking excuse to kill him off, which I agree with to a degree.

Azeroth wasn’t even the planets name in WC1, just the name of the nation where the Humans of lower EK thrived.

- - - Updated - - -

If the jailer is gone and the rift is still there then what is stopping an evil dragon from resurrecting

Us closing it.

[Ersula]

I don't think they will make an announcement until after World First kill of the Jailer. It'll take away too much attention from 9.2. However, saying that, I am perfectly okay if they gave us information sooner rather than later.

They frequently announce expansions before the last raid tier is even open. Why would that suddenly matter now?

- - - Updated - - -

It wasn't "broken" if you mean his argument. His argument was the First One's design was flawed/unfair to the souls involved.

If you refer to broken as in the Arbiter being broken, the covenants had lost touch with each other(not specified if it was right after they banished Zovaal or much later) and the attendants were keeping it hush hush otherwise as that's made pretty evident as they take us away to show us rather than tell us right there. The whole "purpose" hasn't been the Arbiter, but rather then First Ones obviously or even at this point the 4 cov leader's interpretation of the First One's purpose. The attendants are so devoted to all of this it's pretty obvious they wouldn't spread word that the Arbiter was broken. Everything has been and is setting up the covenants to be wrong at worst and misguided at best, but due to time constraints and people being unable to follow a simple story, they may just forgo it all.

I don't think covid affected the major plot points, just the minor nuances. Just look at the way they jammed all the Tyrande stuff into 9.1

You think this soul splitting stuff was supposed to be the ripcord on the "Sylvanas was right" storyline? That would have been way less complicated than what we got. They handwaved Illidan into jesus.

[Melorandor]

I concur, I think we need the next expansion announcement ASAP, with teasers and a blue post on Blizzard getting down to work, and taking their time on working on 10.0; apologizing for Shadowlands. Just some good PR stuff to hold people over. Make Timewalking permanent, bring out Battle for Azeroth Timewalking. Bring back those old Timewalking Raids like Molten Core. Add some minor stuff to Micro Holidays to hold people over til 10.0

[Gaidax]

I think we need the next expansion announcement ASAP

It does not terribly matter if they do it ASAP or in 5 months - the end result will be the same and will squarely be decided by quality of 10.0.

Right now they need to focus on delivering 9.2.

I don't need their apologies, who even cares. I need them to deliver content and do it in good time.

[Lady Atia]

It does not terribly matter if they do it ASAP or in 5 months - the end result will be the same and will squarely be decided by quality of 10.0.

Right now they need to focus on delivering 9.2.

I don't need their apologies, who even cares. I need them to deliver content and do it in good time.

The current build (which is only the 3rd public build if I remember it correctly?) is already quite stable - they are just missing the last chapter and I doubt they will test that one, the raid transmog/drops aswell as a few mounts (f.e. the curve and jailer mounts). Heroic raid testing is basically done, especially if they really decide to not do any public testing for the last 3 bosses which would be awesome and speed up the process aswell. If they can finish Mythic raid testing within January they are back on track and we could get the patch as early as February. They could even release Zereth Mortis up to 4-5 weeks prior to the opening of the raid which would actually fit with the campaign chapters this time (I think chapter 5 has us interact with a freed Anduin and craft the crown of wills - and they said they want to do only the first 8 bosses because of story reasons after we free him).

[huth]

This isn't on the people this is purely on the incompetent writing and framing. In the case of ardenweald they already had to forsake their purpose and sacrifice entire glades (yet for some reason they kept parasites like the troll loa around..) for their anima and yet no one bothered to check what the fuck is wrong with no anima coming through. The eternal ones know how the machine of death works, they should know that something is amiss. In the case of the Kyrians you have them flying to Oribos all the time and not a single one thought to report that all souls are being funneled into the maw? This maybe be plausible with a rinky dinky operation that has 10-100 people looking away, but it becomes unbelievable when it's on the scale of all life in the universe. If you want to blame this all on the attendants in Oribos then there should have been covenant representatives constantly petitioning them for an answer, oribos should have been shut and been designed entirely different visually to facilitate this plot. The way it is though, no, everyone can see from a distance that something is amiss.

Actually, that's mostly you missing the major points there. Ardenweald did not have the ability to check. Bwonsamdi isn't actually a local, so they weren't "keeping him around". It also takes pretty much the entirety of the Bastion storyline to get Kyrestia to even consider the notion of changing anything. Not-my-problem and we've-always-done-it-that-way are very much endemic problems for the Kyrians, and that's what their entire story is about.

Also, when we first arrive, Oribos is completely shut off from everything.
As is, everybody knew that something was wrong, but the only ones capable of checking were either stuck in an extreme bureaucratic mindset and did not consider it part of their job to check, which is very much pointed out as a flaw of theirs, or were in on the whole deal and actively tried to prevent it from being found out.

[Revamp Man]

So would Galakrond be the final boss or Morozond? Perhaps Moro would not even be a boss to stretch villains for future expansions.

Boss tha ports out to face us at his true death in Cata

[Gaidax]

The current build (which is only the 3rd public build if I remember it correctly?) is already quite stable - they are just missing the last chapter and I doubt they will test that one, the raid transmog/drops aswell as a few mounts (f.e. the curve and jailer mounts). Heroic raid testing is basically done, especially if they really decide to not do any public testing for the last 3 bosses which would be awesome and speed up the process aswell. If they can finish Mythic raid testing within January they are back on track and we could get the patch as early as February. They could even release Zereth Mortis up to 4-5 weeks prior to the opening of the raid which would actually fit with the campaign chapters this time (I think chapter 5 has us interact with a freed Anduin and craft the crown of wills - and they said they want to do only the first 8 bosses because of story reasons after we free him).

Quite stable?

Tier sets are mechanically bugged and miss basic features on few of them, few Heroic bosses practically did not work and far from all patch features are up, not all outdoor content is yet even available.

The patch will release in 2 months the earliest, there is still plenty work to be done there.

[Dracullus]

Quite stable?

Tier sets are mechanically bugged and miss basic features on few of them, few Heroic bosses practically did not work and far from all patch features are up, not all outdoor content is yet even available.

The patch will release in 2 months the earliest, there is still plenty work to be done there.

Yes, for 3rd build PTR is very advanced and stable. It doesn't mean everything is ready to launch tomorrow.

Still release window is very late February or March, that's pretty obvious.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Actually, that's mostly you missing the major points there. Ardenweald did not have the ability to check. Bwonsamdi isn't actually a local, so they weren't "keeping him around". It also takes pretty much the entirety of the Bastion storyline to get Kyrestia to even consider the notion of changing anything. Not-my-problem and we've-always-done-it-that-way are very much endemic problems for the Kyrians, and that's what their entire story is about.

Also, when we first arrive, Oribos is completely shut off from everything.
As is, everybody knew that something was wrong, but the only ones capable of checking were either stuck in an extreme bureaucratic mindset and did not consider it part of their job to check, which is very much pointed out as a flaw of theirs, or were in on the whole deal and actively tried to prevent it from being found out.

Always the stalward defender of this bullshit. When we arive in oribos the whole thing is already crawling with brokers and the covenants have a direct line to the arbiter as they show afterwards when you finish revendreth. Kleia is also some random aspirant, not a full fledged Kyrian that has been ferrying souls for eternity. They are clearly capable of individual thought, but none of them do because it's the only way the nonsense plot happens. And even when they know they keep chugging souls in the maw. The only ones with an excuse here are Maldraxxus and Revendreth, the former beause they are headless chickens without the Primus, the later being the actual betrayers.

[draugril]

It does not terribly matter if they do it ASAP or in 5 months - the end result will be the same and will squarely be decided by quality of 10.0.

Right now they need to focus on delivering 9.2.

I don't need their apologies, who even cares. I need them to deliver content and do it in good time.

Eh, to be perfectly honest, if the concept for a new expansion were to interest me, I would probably be willingly manipulated into subscribing now "in preparation." I have investment in WoW's past, not its present. I've run out of goodwill. I am more than willing to play again if the future looks bright, however. Right now, it's just a void, and the current direction of the game isn't exactly inspiring me with hope.

[Dioporco]

You really think Blizz writes the story to cater to them, or to anyone else? Not to mention sylvibois went almost extinct since BfA bbq party.

No Sylvibois are still there, because you can clearly see the amount of people that are ok with Stlvanas redemption or current Lore direction.

Otherwise is just a fetish dream from Danuser made as Lore.

Is just like making shop mounts for the whales instead of as content.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think covid affected the major plot points, just the minor nuances. Just look at the way they jammed all the Tyrande stuff into 9.1

You think this soul splitting stuff was supposed to be the ripcord on the "Sylvanas was right" storyline? That would have been way less complicated than what we got. They handwaved Illidan into jesus.

The soul splitting thing was likely intended fairly early on, given the focus on Uther in the pre-release materials and it being already included in side books like that Fairy Tales collection. It's the infinity stones that were the ripcord for a patch focusing on Ardenweald, hence how they never come up in the entirety of 9.0 where the focus is on the Heart of the Forest as the seal for the Maw only for that aspect to be ditched. See also how the infinity stones serve no purpose save for the very last one on the Arbiter which was a visual element from Day 1 and how they in no way inform what the Bald Man does in the last patch. They were purely a plot contrivance to zoom past content and a way to shove in all the Covenant and zone resolutions into a single patch for lack of space.

[Sondrelk]

The soul splitting thing was likely intended fairly early on, given the focus on Uther in the pre-release materials and it being already included in side books like that Fairy Tales collection. It's the infinity stones that were the ripcord for a patch focusing on Ardenweald, hence how they never come up in the entirety of 9.0 where the focus is on the Heart of the Forest as the seal for the Maw only for that aspect to be ditched. See also how the infinity stones serve no purpose save for the very last one on the Arbiter which was a visual element from Day 1 and how they in no way inform what the Bald Man does in the last patch. They were purely a plot contrivance to zoom past content and a way to shove in all the Covenant and zone resolutions into a single patch for lack of space.

A hypothetical Ardenweald patch would probably make the expansion feel more cohesive in most regards honestly. The heart of the forest is one thing, but we also didn't really get a resolution to the Tyrande story so much as it was stopped dead in its tracks and airlifted to the ending
The Drust are another aspect that feels very out of place in the grand scheme. Seemingly just there as filler, which is a niche the Gorm already fill. A 9.2 bridging patch focusing more on Ardenweald could possibly give a better link between between the Drust and the Jailer, as well as linking the Jailer to the Old Gods, giving some lore on that.

The macguffins*5 is one thing, but I think it's Tyrande that really feels like there was supposed to be more to it. Not just the general sense that her story just kinda ends without rhyme or reason, but also how the fight against her seems very much like it was meant to be an actual boss battle in an instance.


I doubt Blizzard would ever publicly admit to cutting stuff, at least not to that extent. There are other times it's been abundantly clear something was cut, like Shattrath in WoD, but never a developer straight out stating what they cut, what it was supposed to look like, and why it was cut, so I very much doubt they would start now.

[draugril]

I doubt Blizzard would ever publicly admit to cutting stuff, at least not to that extent.

Which is unfortunate. I appreciate transparency. Transparency allows for dialogue and empathy. Instead, we just have cynical speculation which would be completely unnecessary if they were simply more free with the truth.

If they came out and said they cut out a raid tier, gave us their rationale, and apologized... the dialogue around Blizzard would have an entirely different tone.

[Sondrelk]

Which is unfortunate. I appreciate transparency. Transparency allows for dialogue and empathy. Instead, we just have cynical speculation which would be completely unnecessary if they were simply more free with the truth.

If they came out and said they cut out a raid tier, gave us their rationale, and apologized... the dialogue around Blizzard would have an entirely different tone.

I can kinda see why, it would probably create more harm than good to admit to stuff they simply didn't do, rather than leave it up in the air.

Shattrath for instance. If they admit they didn't do it then they would only really get anger for not having commited to what is clearly a cool idea, rather than what we got which is obviously terrible.

I had this discussion when Korthia came out and we learned of the library afterlife, which sounds amazing and possibly better than what we got, but only because we have not a really seen it, and rather got something which has lost its luster.

There also isn't really anything to gain from showing it. If it gets a good response then Blizzard can't exactly go back in time and change it, they just have to live with it potentially having been a good idea they didn't do.


That being said I do wish we got more insight into the design process. It would definitely be annoying to see good idea that got scrapped, but at least we see some fun stuff.

[huth]

Always the stalward defender of this bullshit. When we arive in oribos the whole thing is already crawling with brokers and the covenants have a direct line to the arbiter as they show afterwards when you finish revendreth. Kleia is also some random aspirant, not a full fledged Kyrian that has been ferrying souls for eternity. They are clearly capable of individual thought, but none of them do because it's the only way the nonsense plot happens. And even when they know they keep chugging souls in the maw. The only ones with an excuse here are Maldraxxus and Revendreth, the former beause they are headless chickens without the Primus, the later being the actual betrayers.

Yes, the Brokers. Who aren't members of any of the four Covenants and shown to have their own, independent travel, but also completely unrelated interests and valuing business above fixing anything. Notably, they have no meaningful presence in Ardenweald. The "direct line" also is only shown to work after we reopened communications with all 4.
Not sure why you even bring up Kleia, since i didn't mention her at all. Nor did i claim they're incapable of individualism - what they're having a problem with is diverging from routine, which is actually a pretty real thing in bureaucracy.

[Makabreska]

No Sylvibois are still there, because you can clearly see the amount of people that are ok with Stlvanas redemption or current Lore direction.

Otherwise is just a fetish dream from Danuser made as Lore.

Is just like making shop mounts for the whales instead of as content.

So you really think there is enough of them to bend entire story line? Because I saw like 2 die-hard ones here, everyone else is generally tired of the character and want to be done with her. Not to even mention being fed up with current lore. And again, Danuser fixation for some people is getting out of hand.