1. #17421
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    They did nothing wrong.

    The subject in question refused to cooperate and even had the gall to spit on Alleria's face.

    If anything they were too lenient. If someone in real life spat on the President of the US, they'd be in jail for life.
    I mean, yeah, you said it. They'd be in jail for life. They wouldn't be tortured with some biological/psychological weapons.

    Also, she might be to you, but Alleria isn't anything close to the US President.

  2. #17422
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I mean, yeah, you said it. They'd be in jail for life. They wouldn't be tortured with some biological/psychological weapons.

    Also, she might be to you, but Alleria isn't anything close to the US President.
    Our world also doesn't have healing magic that can literally bring people back from the dead. So it's a moot point. Maybe that refugee will find someone who can heal their brain, possibly a priest, or a paladin.

    but Alleria isn't anything close to the US President.
    Alleria Windrunner is one of the most important leaders on Azeroth.

    She is the leader of the Ren'dorei (a playable race of the Alliance and one of the three main Thalassian factions), she appears to be Vereesa's superior (Vereesa is the leader of the Silver Covenant, the strongest Quel'dorei faction on Azeroth, and the second of the three main Thalassian factions), and she is also the wife of the current Regent of Stormwind and Lord Commander of the Alliance Forces.

    In-game Alleria can be found in the War Room next to the Throne Room of Stormwind. Meaning that she plays a vital role in running the capital of the Alliance and, indeed, the entire Alliance.

    One would have to be pretty stupid to spit on such a person, but it's alright, because the subject in question was clearly not presented as a rational individual. Since it was a Sylvanas loyalist

    And, by the way, let's see what would have happened if they spat on Garrosh, Sylvanas, Arthas, or Gul'dan, something tells me that the whole story wouldn't have ended with their friends and families receiving food and blankets from the victim (of the spit).

  3. #17423
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    They did nothing wrong.

    The subject in question refused to cooperate and even had the gall to spit on Alleria's face.

    If anything they were too lenient. If someone in real life spat on the President of the US, they'd be in jail for life.
    lolwut? Her only authority is as leader of a coterie of lunatics who are perpetually at risk of going insane and as a military authority—and if your highest military authorities decide that being spat on the face and needing information on someone when you have no strong authority that they could help you find is enough reason to torture a civilian with two of the most powerful weapons at their disposal, you court-marshal them for being rampant war criminals with no respect for authority.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-01-06 at 08:45 PM.

  4. #17424
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    lolwut? Her only authority is as leader of a coterie of lunatics who are perpetually at risk of going insane and as a military authority—and if your highest military authorities decide that being spat on the face and needing information on someone who you have no strong authority that they could help you find is enough reason to torture a civilian with two of the most powerful weapons at their disposal, you court-marshal them for being war criminals.
    Canonically Alleria Windrunner was entrusted with leading the search operations of Sylvanas Windrunner, by the High King of the Alliance Anduin Wrynn. As stated Canonically in the description of the novel "Shadows Rising":

    Struggling to shoulder the crushing weight of leadership, King Anduin entrusts the void elf and High Exarch Turalyon to uncover Sylvanas's whereabouts.
    So Alleria was Officially sanctioned by the most influential leader on Azeroth (the King of Stormwind and High King of the Alliance), and was personally entrusted by him with leading the search operations.

    on someone who you have no strong authority
    The refugees were in Arathi Highlands, which Canonically has been retaken by the Alliance after the Fourth War. So they were in Alliance territory and were 100% under Alliance jurisdiction. Alleria, being a high-ranking member of the Alliance entrusted with this mission by the High King of the Alliance himself, had every right to take drastic measures and had strong authority over them.

    No one is going to "court marshal" them by the way since High King Anduin of the Alliance agreed with Alleria and Turalyon taking drastic measures

  5. #17425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    After Turalyon & Alleria melted that guy's brain with zero remorse in the last book
    They had remorse tho. They both didn't like doing it. And Turalyon tried to dissuade Alleria from doing it. It's a shame that for writers "gray morality = villains".

  6. #17426
    There's actually a couple cool Light/Void parallels coming up. Like Turalyon/Alleria is obvious but then we have:

    -Voss and Calia, two different directions for the Forsaken that are "dark and light" respectively
    -the Sin'dorei, light themed elves, possibly working with the Ren'dorei, void themed elves (and their Quel'dorei allies)
    -(this one is a stretch) Yrel and the Lightbound vs Velen and his changed faith/Lightforged allies, which they may deem heretical

    I'm missing some of course but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a couple more parallels. Maybe Baine and An'she vs Magatha and the Twilight?

  7. #17427
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    They had remorse tho. They both didn't like doing it. And Turalyon tried to dissuade Alleria from doing it. It's a shame that for writers "gray morality = villains".
    It seems to me that this is a community's (this thread's community) problem.

    Alleria and Turalyon are never presented as villains so much so that Writer's pet Anduin justified their actions.

    It's people in this thread who are making such a big deal of Alleria using what is essentially "Mind blast", a spell Priests learn at like level 4, on 2 people. And as a last, drastic measure.

    Also worth noting that there are MAGICAL PRIESTS in this setting who can probably heal the brain wounds these guys got.

  8. #17428
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Don’t forget Denathrius.

    For all they said about Titan+ to hype up the Eternals, the game has done everything to show that the Eternal Ones are weaker than Titans. I think this is actually the intent as you see a Constellar here to remind you that they exist as well.

    We don’t even know who made the Titans as they aren’t robots/are born from planets instead of Zereths.
    At this point, I think it's clear the Jailer is titan level, but the others are more like keepers. Very powerful keepers, but it took all 4 of them to overpower him. He was the OG arbiter, so he probably had more power than them.

    I think all cosmic forces have at least 1 person at the top thats at or close to Titan level.

    I would put Naaruu on the scale of Old God minions. I think once we dive into the light more, there will be a light pantheon like the Eternals, with 1 central light mother that is Titan scale. Naaru I think are like Powerful Kyrian. Their job is to scout the cosmos to convert others to their side. They aren't particularly powerful in combat, but they have power in other ways. I would have put Naaruu on the scale of Old Gods, but its clear they are not as powerful since Illidan easily yeeted one of the most powerful ones. So there must be at least 2 tiers of light power above naaru.

    My guess is that the first ones created every pantheon, and those pantheons created minions to do their bidding. Void Lords created Old Gods to seed the cosmos. Light Lords were created by Im guessing 1 Powerful light bro/gal. I think Titans were probably their favored creation, and the ones they left in their stead to fulfill their goals.

  9. #17429
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    That doesn't matter though. We've still BEATEN incredibly powerful beings, time and time again, despite all the odds saying otherwise. At this point, someone who should be intimately aware of everything we've done (since it's all part of his GRAND PLAN) ought to figure out that we are suspiciously good at being the supposed underdog. It's absolutely fucking stupid that a competent, intelligent enemy wouldn't be looking at us and NOT be shitting themselves just a little. It doesn't matter if he thinks he's on another level and his biggatons are better than ours, we've pulled power-ups and allied help out of our asses to do shit like obliterating Old Gods, demon generals, weakened Titans, and everything else. Sometimes we just do it on our own! He's underestimating us when it makes no god damn sense.

    EDIT: Also, Sargeras was supposed to be "WoW's Satan", and was all the way up until this stupid fucking expansion. We ruined HIS plans too.
    Except outside of leading a demonic army, he’s got no similarity to Satan whatsoever

  10. #17430
    I am Murloc! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Except outside of leading a demonic army, he’s got no similarity to Satan whatsoever
    He meant being the ultimate evil dude. But in SL we suddenly learn that he was being puppeted by his Dreadlords.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  11. #17431
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The refugees were in Arathi Highlands, which Canonically has been retaken by the Alliance after the Fourth War. So they were in Alliance territory and were 100% under Alliance jurisdiction. Alleria, being a high-ranking member of the Alliance entrusted with this mission by the High King of the Alliance himself, had every right to take drastic measures and had strong authority over them.
    "Drastic measures" =/= torturing civilians. I highly doubt Le Wholesome Chungus thought that they were going to start using the two most powerful things in existence in simultaneity to torture a civilian.

    Furthermore, the rest of what you have said is essentially the claim I made. That she's a military authority, and consequently answers to higher authorities who would realistically have her sent to tribunal for this.

    Also, I just realized—if Garrosh didn't bomb Theramore, the Void Elves would actually have committed more war crimes by a measure of magnitude than he ever did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It seems to me that this is a community's (this thread's community) problem.

    Alleria and Turalyon are never presented as villains so much so that Writer's pet Anduin justified their actions.

    It's people in this thread who are making such a big deal of Alleria using what is essentially "Mind blast", a spell Priests learn at like level 4, on 2 people. And as a last, drastic measure.

    Also worth noting that there are MAGICAL PRIESTS in this setting who can probably heal the brain wounds these guys got.
    That's not comparable, actually. We explicitly are told she was plunging someone's mind, which is a spell we don't really have in-game—I also don't think that people are going to say that your torture is acceptable because you put a band-aid over it.

  12. #17432
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    That moment ya'll are talking about is pretty small and little consequence narratively speaking. Maybe if the Light and Void showed up more often in SL it would be important but now I don't think so. (It would be slightly amusing if Light and Void create something alltogether and mortals are responsible(New cosmic force or just some messed up entity).
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  13. #17433
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "Drastic measures" =/= torturing civilians. I highly doubt Le Wholesome Chungus thought that they were going to start using the two most powerful things in existence in simultaneity to torture a civilian.

    Furthermore, the rest of what you have said is essentially the claim I made. That she's a military authority, and consequently answers to higher authorities who would realistically have her sent to tribunal for this.

    Also, I just realized—if Garrosh didn't bomb Theramore, the Void Elves would actually have committed more war crimes by a measure of magnitude than he ever did.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's not comparable, actually. We explicitly are told she was plunging someone's mind, which is a spell we don't really have in-game—I also don't think that people are going to say that your torture is acceptable because you put a band-aid over it.
    Was that a morally grey moment? Yes.

    And that, in itself, is superb writing. Because it shows that with great power comes great responsibility. It is undeniable that Alleria and the Ren'dorei are supernatural, even by Warcraft standards. But at the same time, power corrupts and those who wield it can get carried away. That moment was a good reminder that with great power comes great responsibility.

    But did Blizzard write that moment with the intention of showing that Alleria and Turalyon are evil? NO. That's why they later have Anduin justify it.

    And really it simply feels hypocritical to blame them so much for this, when we have an entire race that delightfully experimented on civilians for years and didn't do it for a good cause (like locating a genocidal psycho), but to create a deadly chemical nuke.

    The icing on the cake is that JAINA of all people had the gall to complain about the Ren'dorei's methods. Did Jaina forget that she allowed her underling Vereesa to feed literal civilians to sharks? Indeed, Anduin himself pointed out to Jaina that she is a massive hypocrite.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-01-06 at 09:31 PM.

  14. #17434
    Yeah I can't see the Alleria/Turalyon mindwipe thing amounting to anything of importance. They already made sure that exploring EK and exploring Kalimdor do little to nothing to foreshadow the next expansion, why would that one passage? It just repeats what we already know: Turalyon is Light, Alleria is Void, Anduin is a little of both. That's it.

  15. #17435
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Yeah I can't see the Alleria/Turalyon mindwipe thing amounting to anything of importance. They already made sure that exploring EK and exploring Kalimdor do little to nothing to foreshadow the next expansion, why would that one passage? It just repeats what we already know: Turalyon is Light, Alleria is Void, Anduin is a little of both. That's it.
    I think that most Alliance players have gotten so accustomed to being the paragons of good, that when somebody does something morally grey, they perceive it as villainous instead.

    If it was a Forsaken who did that, literally no one would bat an eye, because the expectations for the Forsaken are so low that people don't even care anymore when they do evil stuff.

    I guess that the Alliance is always so pure and perfect, that it is genuinely shocking when an Alliance character is tired of playing nice

    The reality is that if it was Horde characters who did, it would just be Tuesday, so really it's not an important moment storywise.

  16. #17436
    Curious how people would feel if the next expansion was something of new beginnings/foundation expansion that heavily deviated from the status quo

    - All major cities revamped (SW, Org, TB, IF, + new NE and UD capitals)
    - Silvermoon and Exodar get updated in later patches
    - Starting zones all visually updated - these become the new leveling zones for 60+ characters
    - Large focus on creating new storylines which will develop and be built upon later
    - Cities become a integral part of end game content with enemy areas, numerous quest chains and new dungeons
    - Housing added as new feature
    - Singular max level zone like Dragon Isles which houses the release raid tier

  17. #17437
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    You mean ONE zone, Dragonblight.
    *areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    One zone, with 5 locations within. Dragons were very minor thing in WotLK, and as pointed before, Ruby Santum was done purely to fill the void past ICC.
    And why do you think they chose Dragons?
    Even the Bolvar loading screen. What do you think it resembles?

  18. #17438
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I think that most Alliance players have gotten so accustomed to being the paragons of good, that when somebody does something morally grey, they perceive it as villainous instead.

    If it was a Forsaken who did that, literally no one would bat an eye, because the expectations for the Forsaken are so low that people don't even care anymore when they do evil stuff.

    I guess that the Alliance is always so pure and perfect, that it is genuinely shocking when an Alliance character is tired of playing nice

    The reality is that if it was Horde characters who did, it would just be Tuesday, so really it's not an important moment storywise.
    Torturing is never portrayed as good, or even grey in the game, no matter who does it lol. Most times, the torturers face repercussions of some sort.

    People claim Garrosh and Sylvanas committed warcrimes? Well, then so did Alleria and Turalyon.

    But it's okay, because it's Alleria . I don't even know why I bother talking to you.

  19. #17439
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Curious how people would feel if the next expansion was something of new beginnings/foundation expansion that heavily deviated from the status quo

    - All major cities revamped (SW, Org, TB, IF, + new NE and UD capitals)
    - Silvermoon and Exodar get updated in later patches
    - Starting zones all visually updated - these become the new leveling zones for 60+ characters
    - Large focus on creating new storylines which will develop and be built upon later
    - Cities become a integral part of end game content with enemy areas, numerous quest chains and new dungeons
    - Housing added as new feature
    - Singular max level zone like Dragon Isles which houses the release raid tier
    It would be enough to actually get me to come back and play the game. Absolutely.

  20. #17440
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Torturing is never portrayed as good, or even grey in the game, no matter who does it lol. Most times, the torturers face repercussions of some sort.

    People claim Garrosh and Sylvanas committed warcrimes? Well, then so did Alleria and Turalyon.

    But it's okay, because it's Alleria . I don't even know why I bother talking to you.
    Alleria is god now apparently
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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